Vaccinate or not

Some are, some aren't.

For rapidly evolving respiratory viruses like influenza, yearly vaccine updates can be very effective, moderately effective or barely effective.

Coronaviruses evolve even more rapidly, and harder to vaccinate against.

That's not to rebut your observation Frog, but a more general statement about Vaccines.

The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.
If you are an affected individual or know someone who is, you'd have the opposite opinion.

freeride76 wrote:

Some are, some aren't.

For rapidly evolving respiratory viruses like influenza, yearly vaccine updates can be very effective, moderately effective or barely effective.

Coronaviruses evolve even more rapidly, and harder to vaccinate against.

That's not to rebut your observation Frog, but a more general statement about Vaccines.

But still plenty of profit to be made which is plenty of political donations to keep the shit vaccines that we don’t need rolling year to year

Well said fr76. The flu jabs have saved many old buggers from an early grave, although some people here seem to think if you are over 60 you are as good as dead anyway so why bother. The anti vax cult mob are anti all vaccines. When I was in primary school every class had a few kids with irons on their legs due to polio, half our middle-aged neighbors were limping around on walking sticks, it was everywhere, and it wasn't pretty. The vaccine pretty well wiped it out overnight. Yet some people still won't accept that it worked.

Boomers love the polio vax comparison.

Burls and Ashsam -

Any thoughts on the 83 deaths during the Samoa measles outbreak?

61 out of the first 70 deaths were aged four and under and all but seven were aged under 15.

I remember Burls saying to leave the kids alone with regards to polio in London.

Similar thoughts with Samoa?

AndyM wrote:

Burls and Ashsam -

Any thoughts on the 83 deaths during the Samoa measles outbreak?

61 out of the first 70 deaths were aged four and under and all but seven were aged under 15.

I remember Burls saying to leave the kids alone with regards to polio in London.

Similar thoughts with Samoa?

the silence was golden.

Cookers only pretend to care about deaths when it proves their beliefs.

AndyM wrote:

Burls and Ashsam -

Any thoughts on the 83 deaths during the Samoa measles outbreak?

61 out of the first 70 deaths were aged four and under and all but seven were aged under 15.

I remember Burls saying to leave the kids alone with regards to polio in London.

Similar thoughts with Samoa?

That's a very good example.

There are a few of those diseases that are brutal on some populations without European descent vaccines being the only answer bar isolation.

I doubt this conversation would be happening if covid killed or harmed children like many other pandemic diseases the world was extraordinarily lucky that didn't happen.

freeride76 wrote:

Some are, some aren't.

For rapidly evolving respiratory viruses like influenza, yearly vaccine updates can be very effective, moderately effective or barely effective.

Coronaviruses evolve even more rapidly, and harder to vaccinate against.

That's not to rebut your observation Frog, but a more general statement about Vaccines.

The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.
If you are an affected individual or know someone who is, you'd have the opposite opinion.

Sums it up nicely

Freeride said-“ The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.“

Lol….wot?

You’re a funny guy, Freeride!

I guess you just plain forgot that the vast, vast majority of the population that are not very old and / or seriously fucked up with chronic ill health ie average three comorbidities …..have virtually zero chance of dying from covid and chance of serious illness from covid is so tiny as to be insignificant?

Yet vaccine injuries are spread across the entire spectrum of age and health.

The statistically insignificant benefit of covid vaccination to most people is dwarfed by the risk of vaccination side effects. Your opinion is incorrect.
The first graph lists total Australian covid deaths and comorbidities contributing to covid deaths. Do these comorbidities appear to be the type of health issues facing most younger Australians?

thst's right frog

see andym and i focus' post above regarding vaccinations generally- they should have a disclaimer / distinction - that this only applies... BEFORE the definition was changed...

lots in this article, about 'efficacy', hesitancy, 'a master narrative', ...and not least, how the vaccinated were actually more 'dangerous' than the supposed 'plague of the unvaccinated', and how policies in europe around digital passports reflected this... eventually...

also very interesting info about ethiopia, who avoided a mass plague, with an impressive vaccination rate of...

wait for it...

1%

yes 1%!

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccin...

yes, nothing is definitive...

but it all raises soooooo many questions!

Slackjawedyokel wrote:

Freeride said-“ The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.“

Lol….wot?

You’re a funny guy, Freeride!

I guess you just plain forgot that the vast, vast majority of the population that are not very old and / or seriously fucked up with chronic ill health ie average three comorbidities …..have virtually zero chance of dying from covid and chance of serious illness from covid is so tiny as to be insignificant?

Yet vaccine injuries are spread across the entire spectrum of age and health.

The statistically insignificant benefit of covid vaccination to most people is dwarfed by the risk of vaccination side effects. Your opinion is incorrect.
The first graph lists total Australian covid deaths and comorbidities contributing to covid deaths. Do these comorbidities appear to be the type of health issues facing most younger Australians?

survival rate stats were always going to increase over time...once Drs etc learnt how to treat those infected survival rates went up fast. Simple things like how an infected person sits or lays on a bed increased survival. cleanliness and washing improvements increased survival rates. using certain meds as a trial increased survival, telecommunications and the disbursement of information globally increased survival. isolating those high at risk increased survival rates. 3/4 weeks into the whole shit show survival rates were starting to increase.

No surprise this is lost on you.

The mortality rate statistics are from late 2020 and the “more deadly” delta strain. Statistics are based on unvaccinated.

Though it’s funny to have you, of all people, telling us how safe we were from the virus.

This was how roadkill was actually acting during the entire covid farce right up until he reinvented himself as a nonchalant man about town.

Slackjawedyokel wrote:

The mortality rate statistics are from late 2020 and the “more deadly” delta strain. Statistics are based on unvaccinated.

Though it’s funny to have you, of all people, telling us how safe we were from the virus.

your posts, trying so hard to appear clever with statistics and some copy and pasted medical jargon. I’m sure the other cookers are impressed. :-)

I’m afraid it’s patently obvious to virtually everyone that you’ve been the cooker since day one. You absolutely shit your pants and abandoned your thin veneer of normalcy the moment the media told you to do so.

Nothing but a reactionary retard.

It shows just how cooked you are that your every retardant utterance is recorded on this thread but you still believe it never happened.

Cooked as a potato scallop at a Greek chip shop.

You mean potato cake

Potato scallop sounds ridiculous and is therefore the more appropriate terminology

Slackjawedyokel wrote:

Freeride said-“ The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.“

Lol….wot?

The statistically insignificant benefit of covid vaccination to most people is dwarfed by the risk of vaccination side effects. Your opinion is incorrect.

To be honest, it's not my opinion.

I don't really have an "opinion" on it.

I stated what the medical establishment considered was the result of vaccination.
Summed up in this Lancet paper.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00320-6/fulltext

Background

The first COVID-19 vaccine outside a clinical trial setting was administered on Dec 8, 2020. To ensure global vaccine equity, vaccine targets were set by the COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access (COVAX) Facility and WHO. However, due to vaccine shortfalls, these targets were not achieved by the end of 2021. We aimed to quantify the global impact of the first year of COVID-19 vaccination programmes.
Methods

A mathematical model of COVID-19 transmission and vaccination was separately fit to reported COVID-19 mortality and all-cause excess mortality in 185 countries and territories. The impact of COVID-19 vaccination programmes was determined by estimating the additional lives lost if no vaccines had been distributed. We also estimated the additional deaths that would have been averted had the vaccination coverage targets of 20% set by COVAX and 40% set by WHO been achieved by the end of 2021.
Findings

Based on official reported COVID-19 deaths, we estimated that vaccinations prevented 14·4 million (95% credible interval [Crl] 13·7–15·9) deaths from COVID-19 in 185 countries and territories between Dec 8, 2020, and Dec 8, 2021. This estimate rose to 19·8 million (95% Crl 19·1–20·4) deaths from COVID-19 averted when we used excess deaths as an estimate of the true extent of the pandemic, representing a global reduction of 63% in total deaths (19·8 million of 31·4 million) during the first year of COVID-19 vaccination. In COVAX Advance Market Commitment countries, we estimated that 41% of excess mortality (7·4 million [95% Crl 6·8–7·7] of 17·9 million deaths) was averted.

Interpretation

COVID-19 vaccination has substantially altered the course of the pandemic, saving tens of millions of lives globally.

Thats an emphatic declaration of reduction in disease burden.

If you think that is BS, thats fine, but it's got nothing to do with my opinion.

My personal anecdotes- in all my circles: friends, family, friends of friends, friends of family, family of family OS etc etc- not a single adverse reaction to the vaccination.
That would amount to hundreds of people across the country and overseas- very small sample but my experience.

Appreciate others have differing experiences.

2 adults, 2 kids in this family.

We had the two shots and no booster, teenage daughter had 2 shots.
Teenage son , no shots.
We decided the risk of adverse events was greater than the risk of the virus.

Freeride-That Lancet article has nothing to do with your statement that :

“the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates”

The Lancet addresses lessening the burden of death , but the burden of death was never, ever relevant to 95% of the world’s population. So it’s entirely incorrect to use the article to say that, in a general manner , the individual harms from side effects were subservient to net benefit.

If the vaccine had been voluntarily available to vulnerable people you might be closer to the truth. No one else needed them. To also throw in the claim that mandates for the entire population was outweighed by the benefit is egregious misrepresentation of the Lancet article. It’s a matter of your opinion and it’s an incorrect opinion. Not a single person should ever be subject to a medical procedure that doesn’t benefit them or society. I think you’ll find it was found to be a legal breach of human rights.

There's a million other medical/scientific papers out there that came to similar conclusions, if you want to look.

But I would be deffo open to seeing medical or scientific conclusions that stated otherwise.

That the harms from individual adverse reactions outweighed the benefits, if I understand you correctly.

There weren't mandates for the "entire population" in any countries were there?

Some occupations had mandates, most did not.

(the state which brought the world chicken-salt says 'potato fritter'..
on behalf of SA and Peter, you're welcome ; )

freeride76 wrote:

There's a million other medical/scientific papers out there that came to similar conclusions, if you want to look.

But I would be deffo open to seeing medical or scientific conclusions that stated otherwise.

In simple terms, most people never needed the vaccine. This is fact. How was exposing them to any chance of side effects then a positive risk?

This meme may be humorous but for most people it is factually correct :

Because it reduced the overall disease burden at a population level.
Thats how vaccinations work, even shitty ones like Covid and Flu vaccines.

That seems to be widely accepted in the medical science literature.

Do you have any science that says otherwise?

I don’t think you’re listening mate.

The vaccine might have reduced the disease burden in age / health appropriate groups but it was a net negative for the rest. And the rest make up the vast bulk of the population.

You show me the science that says otherwise. Sub 75 yr old healthy people far, far out number those who receive a statistically significant benefit from the vaccine. No one needed it unless they were old and very, very sick. Let alone the disgraceful mandates.

Show me science that emphatically proves otherwise. You can’t ,…it doesn’t exist

BTW….the covid “vaccines” are not and never were true vaccines. That’s why the definition of vaccine was changed. To group the covid vaccine with true vaccines is a perversion of the term. The covid vaccine never prevented transmission or infection and never limited the population’s exposure to the virus. It therefore cannot reduce the burden at a population level….because it has statistically insignificant benefit levels ( ie does nothing) for most of the population.

You knew your teenage son stood to face a negative risk level from getting the shot. It’s the same for the entire spectrum of age and health up till about > 75 years old with multiple comorbidities or immune deficiency. Yet you somehow still think you’ll find science thst says “ It’s lucky we mandated and coerced all those healthy people into getting the shot, even though they face no risk from covid but potentially risk from the shot itself “.

That maths doesn’t add up

I've put up scientific papers now and you've given me memes back.

I appreciate you think differently- thats fine.

If you could put up any studies at all which back up your position, I'd appreciate it.

Here's another one from Nature in 2024.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45953-1

“ The covid vaccine never prevented transmission or infection and never limited the population’s exposure to the virus.”

Some lower the severity of the disease and some prevent infection, the flu shot doesn’t prevent you from getting it, but can lessen the effects. That’s an example off the top of the head. I’ve never had a flu shot but would of I was elderly or had other health issues.

It's Friday, a cracker day at that, the surf's been pumping and this is still dragging on. I'm glad I stay out.

In short, the whole mandates, vaccine messaging/pushing etc didn't keep up with the evolving science, as didn't the government.

Lessons have been learnt for next time. Go and get wet.

There was science done on transmission, and although the vaccine ended up being pretty useless against Omicron transmission, they did seem to cut down intra household infection rates for Delta.

"In April, Public Health England reported the results of a large study of COVID-19 transmission involving more than 365,000 households with a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated members.

It found immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40–60%. This means that if someone became infected after being vaccinated, they were only around half as likely to pass their infection on to others compared to infected people who were not vaccinated".

https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+...

Neither of your links have gone within cooee of your stated ambition to demonstrate population level reduction of disease burden justifying population wide vaccine issue / coercion / mandates.

The last article is relevant to mortality. There is no context for age of patients. Older, vulnerable people die and covid helps them die. They are not representative of population and they are not weighted demographically to form any measure of population wide benefit / risk assessment.

Like I’ve said over and over….the old and vulnerable should have had the shot available. So could others if they wanted it …..but virtually no one bar the old and vulnerable needed it. Therefore it’s incorrect to say that the burden of disease was reduced on a population level justifying everyone needing it.

There is no science to support your claim. I thought you were a scientist? Can’t you distinguish between papers for relevance?

Craig wrote:

It's Friday, a cracker day at that, the surf's been pumping and this is still dragging on. I'm glad I stay out.

In short, the whole mandates, vaccine messaging/pushing etc didn't keep up with the evolving science, as didn't the government.

Lessons have been learnt for next time. Go and get wet.

Surfed for three hours in testing beachy nugget tubes. Wider than they were high and they were well overhead. Huge energy burn getting into them quickly enough and making it out the back after each wave. Nearly broke my neck getting pitched.
Now I’m sitting talking shit on the internet whilst waiting for crew to finish work for a catch up. No harm done. I get it you don’t want to . Fine , no one getting hurt here. Freeride is great to talk to….he maintains neutral composure so it doesn’t descend into trash. And I like talking about this shit, if you haven’t noticed. It’s the biggest thing to happen to the world in decades and there’s never been an accounting.
It’s cool.

freeride76 wrote:

There was science done on transmission, and although the vaccine ended up being pretty useless against Omicron transmission, they did seem to cut down intra household infection rates for Delta.

"In April, Public Health England reported the results of a large study of COVID-19 transmission involving more than 365,000 households with a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated members.

It found immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40–60%. This means that if someone became infected after being vaccinated, they were only around half as likely to pass their infection on to others compared to infected people who were not vaccinated".

https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+...

Lol

You really think household transmission rates are empirical?

What do the houses in the study look like? Uniform Closed quarters ? Comparable level of human contact for every house? Personal levels of health / immunity/ lifestyle all averaged and accounted for….?

Fuck no.

That’s ridiculous.

When the people who made the vaccines admit they were not designed or formulated to halt transmission how about we drop the pretending that they come up with it as a fortuitous accident?

They expressly state the reduction in disease burden.
Yes, the disease burden was higher for old and sick people, as it is for flu.

"The evidence available today demonstrates the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing the risk of developing symptomatic disease, surpassing the efficacy rates of other vaccines, such as influenza vaccines (around 50–60% efficacy), and effectively preventing severe disease, hospitalizations, and deaths [22,33,34] associated with COVID-19. In 2021, across 90 countries, Liang et al. [35] showed that for every 10% increase in COVID-19 vaccine coverage, the mortality rate could be reduced by 8%. In Italy, the last Technical Note issued by the ISS estimated that just over 8 million infections, over 500,000 hospitalizations in medical units, over 55,000 hospitalizations in intensive care units (ICUs), and over 150,000 deaths were directly avoided by COVID-19 vaccination in the period January 2021–January 2022"

That is a reduction, expressly stated, from the Covid vaccines.

Do you have any science to the contrary?

Anyhow, this isn't really going anywhere.

I'm of a view that, roughly speaking, the decisions made were made in reasonably good faith considering the information/data available at the time.
Even if those decisions later turned out to be overcooked or undercooked, depending on your point of view.

You think it was some kind of hoax/plot/lie/fraud committed in order to serve some separate agenda to enslave us- if I understand you correctly.

You still missed the point. Your original statement that the disease burden was reduced on a population level and this justifies mandates …..is still incorrect and nothing you’ve said since goes near it.

Now you’re agreeing : “ Yeah, sure it WAS just in the old and the sick “….which undermines your own point.

I asked a question.

“ The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.“

If you have some science to the contrary, I'd like too see it.

I understand your opinion now.

Enslavement? I never said that.

I said the covid era restrictions were used to advance further control over society and to acclimatise populations to that new level of control.

I’d say Western nations becoming more like Chinese society in that their freedoms are curtailed, particularly if they stray from social tolerances dictated by the government. I never said enslavement. Misrepresenting my belief as intended enslavement is an exaggeration perhaps in order to ridicule. It’s being facetious.

So hard to believe after the US and Australian governments lied to their respective populations in order to send young people to kill a million Iraqis so the governments could allow their corporate overlords to carve up the resource / rebuild booty? Or was that just more overreach / incompetence / adapting to an evolving science ? Lol Because that appears to be your stance ….that people are can’t or won’t behave in such an anti social and misanthropic manner in order to further their interests. Or that they can’t do so without good people uncovering the plot in time to prevent it unfolding. There’s real world evidence that stance is unfounded and naive.

None of your opinions counter the fact that the threat of the virus was exaggerated to sixth dimension of fantasy. This scared people into handing over their freedoms voluntarily. That’s a useful and well established path to controlling populations. But you’ll probably fall into the whole “science evolved quickly “ , it’s incompetence blah blah

freeride76 wrote:

I asked a question.

“ The question is: does the reduction in disease burden from Covid from the vaccines outweigh the individual harms from side effects and mandates.

Medical establishment and science would say yes, emphatically.“

If you have some science to the contrary, I'd like too see it.

I understand your opinion now.

That’s a strawman argument. The same reduction of disease burden could have been acquired without the mandates and entirety of population vaccine program.

Fair enough.

I never meant to ridicule or misrepresent your position, appreciate the clarification.

I still disagree with it, but you may be right.

It is possible: "covid era restrictions were used to advance further control over society and to acclimatise populations to that new level of control".

Put it this way: If a climate change related travel restriction was proposed in a years time many would be far more objective in considering the proposition after the Covid era lockdown / travel / living restrictions.

Prior to covid people would have been utterly stunned at the mere suggestion. They would have almost universally refused as it was an unknown experience. Reactionary thinking would have displaced thoughtful rationalisation.

It would have been nearly impossible to impose such acceptance of the ideology of collective sacrifice in real terms with individual restrictions. Not so much now.

And it’s strange that people still scoff at the idea that the government would unilaterally restrict their movement or behaviour ….despite the fact that it’s already happened! Not sure how something can still be considered a laughably unlikely outcome when they’ve already lived through it a couple of years ago.

freeride76 wrote:

Because it reduced the overall disease burden at a population level.
Thats how vaccinations work, even shitty ones like Covid and Flu vaccines.

That seems to be widely accepted in the medical science literature.

Do you have any science that says otherwise?

Have you forgotten the 90% that got vaxed were the ones spreading covid around, while the unvaxed were banned from nursing homes, hospitals, work places, cafes etc
Don't need science for that.

Joe Rogan podcast 2133 with Brendan O’Neill is worth listening to.

They talk a bit about Covid lockdown and the loss of rights and some corruption and how control was given away and accepted as necessary etc etc. How many accepted direction with no hesitation or questioning if right or wrong. Also how free speech was limited and how important free speech is to keep.

Greta gets a mention as does the crazy world of gender and much much more.

Is really one of the better episodes…really engaging and they throw up some good debate and does make you/me/others think about things.

I see today in the real world S.A. health is considering dumping mandatory covid vaccinations and are asking their 40,000 workers if they agree to the change. The states top doctor saying the state now has a "hybrid immunity" possibly opening the door for those who refused the jab to return to work. However, they are still encouraging workers to keep up with their jabs.
Haven't they seen that "sudden death" video on twitter!!! Ha ha.

Old news old flog. QLD has and NSW about to.

Roadkill, AndyM, old flog and freeride can leave the house now, it’s safe.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/health/health-department-abs-s...

This is the sort of millennial logic we have to endure on this thread.

@ BaseSix.... I dunno about much... but chicken salt sounds kinda good. Perfect for a Kitchen Sink sammie. I had never heard of it. Celery salt has been a go to.....

@wax24, hey mate, real good to hear from you, fill us in on what's been happening when you feel it.

Slackjawedyokel wrote:

Put it this way: If a climate change related travel restriction was proposed in a years time many would be far more objective in considering the proposition after the Covid era lockdown / travel / living restrictions.

Prior to covid people would have been utterly stunned at the mere suggestion. They would have almost universally refused as it was an unknown experience. Reactionary thinking would have displaced thoughtful rationalisation.

It would have been nearly impossible to impose such acceptance of the ideology of collective sacrifice in real terms with individual restrictions. Not so much now.

And it’s strange that people still scoff at the idea that the government would unilaterally restrict their movement or behaviour ….despite the fact that it’s already happened! Not sure how something can still be considered a laughably unlikely outcome when they’ve already lived through it a couple of years ago.

I don't think so.

The climate of misinformation, division of the public and politicisation of science has made a right mess of things. And the dial on this got cranked up during covid.

People are now not more complicit, as a whole, there's probably a more highly sceptical people and a stronger feeling of distrust.

So if the covid lockdowns were a plan to warm up the public to future controls.....to me they were a pretty dumb idea.

Secondly - who benefits from climate lockdowns? I (kind of) can entertain the idea that pharmaceutical juggernauts can benefit from lockdowns and control, but climate lockdowns? Seems like pure manufactured fear to me.

ashsam wrote:

Roadkill, AndyM, old flog and freeride can leave the house now, it’s safe.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/health/health-department-abs-s...

Thanks Ash, I'm all good mate.

Never really had any restrictions on my daily activities during Covid.

old-dog wrote:

This is the sort of millennial logic we have to endure on this thread.

Old-Dog. I’m with you.

I know a couple of guys, call them mates, who have spent their whole life stressing over what they regard as government or global conspiracies. I watch them , it’s hard keeping up their appearances and futile thoughts, it tires them, always having to recall on their memory to ensure they’re not repeating themselves.

Why live then ?

They trust nobody , especially scientists, medicos etc., they think they are all out to get them.

We’ve got a few conspiratorial types amongst us.

If you don’t like the system for anything , opt out. Go your own way and see how you fare.

This constant uploading, downloading of graphs and comments and YouTube clips (unsolicited publishing) relating to vaccines, climate change etc. boring as bat shit.

How about writing using your own logic, brain and intelligence instead of someone else’s biased thoughts or views. Offer up something credible instead of wheeling out the same old shit.

What’s the point to it all ?

If you want to keeping playing in your own puddles, carry on doing what you’re doing. Fair dinkum AW