Labor leadership

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nick3 started the topic in Tuesday, 26 Mar 2013 at 7:07pm

Who is as happy as me that the leadership dispute is now put to rest and Juilliard Gillard is here to takes us to the election

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davetherave Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 3:16pm

sheepy the schoolmaster, way too serious for me mate, got a bite outta ya, no doubt because of the removalists-
i dont take this too serious because its a net forum, if it was actually people who were going to do something to make a change, i would be into it proper. this is not a dig at anyone, just a fact.
the dawg would make a good candidate, so would floyd and braudulio, how about it?
i got my wheels in motion.

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Sheepdog Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 3:29pm

Cheers, braudulio.... You've got a job here as adviser.... You've always said it like it is, whether I agree or not......And I sure don't need any "yes" men..... ;)

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Shatner'sBassoon Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 3:39pm

I mentioned Chomsky before, ever heard of his fellow linguistics theoretician and academic rival, George Lakoff, the' father of framing' (as in framing debate)?

How to frame a debate? Well, here's an example from Lakoff himself about taxes:

''Taxes are what you pay to be an American [Australian], to live in a civilized society that is democratic and offers opportunity, and where there's an infrastructure that has been paid for by previous taxpayers."

Compare that to the usual bilge you get from the right-whingers (here and abroad) when the word 'tax' is invoked.

Maybe it's about time Labor had a re-read of his classic (actually it's in its umpteenth re-print/update): Don’t Think of an Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate.

Howard was a cunning intuitive master of framing debates. In particular we're still dealing with the way he framed the asylum seeker debate ie 'illegals', 'queue jumpers', 'economic migrants'

Abbott isn't a master. What he does have, and which is crucial, is a compliant media that allows and eases the framing.

HAMMER IT HOME!

(What's the message?)

Stop the boats?

Tow the boats?

Turn back boats?

Pay the boats?

Hook or crook?

What boats where?

Fuck off quietly?

Go back home?

Go die elsewhere?

You scare me?

I hate you?

I WANT POWER!

(power without glory...)

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braudulio Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 3:50pm
Sheepdog wrote:

Cheers, braudulio.... You've got a job here as adviser.... You've always said it like it is, whether I agree or not......And I sure don't need any "yes" men..... ;)

Sweet, my current contract runs out soon and was looking for a new career direction.

Now, by advisor do you mean faceless-backroom-number-cruncher or stand-next-to-you-nodding-like-a-fool-when-you-front-the-press? If it's the former all well and good, if it's the latter then I should warn you I have a face that's only good for modelling full-faced motorcycle helmets (think occy hit with the ugly stick).

Either way it'd give me great job satisfaction to tell you you're full of shit when required!

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Sheepdog Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 4:13pm

I mean man in the grey suit..... Cancer man via x files..... The man in the shadows..... hahahahaha

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davetherave Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 4:22pm

vote 1 braudulio.

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Sheepdog Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 4:36pm

"Abbott isn't a master. What he does have, and which is crucial, is a compliant media that allows and eases the framing."

Well said....Sometimes I shake head during the interviews, even on abc24.....

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braudulio Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 5:13pm
Sheepdog wrote:

I mean man in the grey suit..... Cancer man via x files..... The man in the shadows..... hahahahaha

Ideal! When do I start?

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braudulio Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 5:19pm
Sheepdog wrote:

"Abbott isn't a master. What he does have, and which is crucial, is a compliant media that allows and eases the framing."

Well said....Sometimes I shake head during the interviews, even on abc24.....

Sometimes?? Mate my chiro has advised me never to watch that clown again.

With a compliant media we're a shoe in. Now were did I put Uncle Rupert's number.

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Shatner'sBassoon Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 6:07pm

The media have the most important role in the success and failure of the framed message in this country. It's why corporate media concentration here is unhealthy. It's why State-owned media is under threat by the sponsored agents of corporate media. ABC bashing, anyone? "Whose side are you on?" "Lefty lynch mob." Hmmm, who said that?

Social media is the potential game-changer...but just not yet. "Electronic graffiti"?? Who said that again?

I'm going to put up a speech made by Tones in praise of Rupert and the IPA here and in the Abbott thread. It's an oldie and a scary doozy...and mysteriously withdrawn from the Liberal Party site where it used to have pride of place (Tones fancies himself as a writer). It's weird because every other bit of fluff is still there...interviews with Karl Stefanovic, various door-stops etc

This should have been seen, heard, and read by the majority of Australians pre-election...

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/plutocrats-pu...

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Sheepdog Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 7:26pm

Yeah, read that a while back, shats...... This is why i get so worked up about labor, and the fact that caucus voted over it's members, and put a freakn numbnut in charge... A numbnut who alongside fellow union puppet Paul Howes knifed a pm who took down Howard, then knifed their replacement and put that same pm back in..... Un fucking believable....
Now Bilge Shunter publicly wedges his own party on boats, taking chopper bishop off the front page in the process.....
Turdburger or shit sandwich..... Your choice, Australia.....

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davetherave Friday, 24 Jul 2015 at 7:42pm

your right mate, another great opportunity missed. clean energy should have been the talking point out of the labor gathering,which would have been a favourable thought catcher for the voters, but no, chopper konks out and the abbott boats regatta fiasco is the talk of the town. your photo of the heads in the arses is spot on.

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tonybarber Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 9:26am

It may be worthwhile to see what the Labor conference comes up with. I suggest it will allay your fears or concerns. The boat issue is a constructive one with an increase in migration. The energy targets are reset and there is more ... Just hang in.

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floyd Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 10:29am

sheepy said ...... "Turdburger or shit sandwich..... Your choice, Australia..... "

The trouble with that sentiment sheepy, is the voting public keep on swallowing it. I'm fearful it says much about the psyche of those "western suburbs" electorates we hear endlessly about.

This is why I believe the country desperately needs a return to consensus politics on the major issues, its as if the country needs healing, we are too fractured, too angry and at the end of the day its mostly about issues that don't impact greatly on our daily lives. We were once a generous country, a welcoming country of the "fair go". Where has all that gone? Our political leaders from Howard on have a lot to answer for.

I don't see an easy or quick solution to this madness, I'm thinking that Donald Horne quote again, it will need hard work and will on both sides of politics ........ I'm running out of energy for all this, thinking I'll just go up country for awhile.

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davetherave Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 11:43am
tonybarber wrote:

It may be worthwhile to see what the Labor conference comes up with. I suggest it will allay your fears or concerns. The boat issue is a constructive one with an increase in migration. The energy targets are reset and there is more ... Just hang in.

you are correct tony, i am just amazed at the timing of things said, it is all about getting voters attention and confidence- the emphasis on the clean energy target would have gained favourable attention.
remember obama's speech in brisbane, the only comments that got raucous applause was talking about clean energy- good sample to promote further, especially seeing tony does not share the same view.

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sypkan Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 12:30pm

its a positive start for labor, but they've gotta keep it about clean energy, let's not go back to that nasty AGW debate, that just gets people's backs up. and it can be about so much more, clean energy, no big holes, no oil spills, cunsumption of fosdil fuels etc. Abbott is looking like more and more of a fool defending the old ways as renewables become more viable. making him look the fool for being backwards is proving enough without another bunch of ugly moral debates.

but labor need to school themselves up on the big picture stuff. they looked the fools last time whenever journalists got beyond the cliched superficial questioning, even with the cliched questioning they looked stupid and ingenuine.

a couple more right moves by labor and there's hope yet. whoever gets in, Australia's economy is fucked for the next ten years. we may as well have a fucked economy, with renewables, and a little hope, rather than fucked economy, a meglamaniac and despair.

labor has gotta get onto this selling the farm and the suburbs thing. i can see it now, another five years and hardly any australians will have any money at all, thats kinda inevitable, and the chinese will be buying the whole place up for a song

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sypkan Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 5:10pm

from the labor conference.

Australia will double its refugee intake, we can only do this because we have control of our borders

if i was an egomaniac I would scroll back through the abbott thread and show the date and time i said that about six months ago.

enough with the self adulation but it is true, it does give us the opportunity to increase the intake of the patient refugees that do the right thing. i say do it tomorrow, not over the next ten years, and quadruple the numbers, give people some hope.

labor is winning me over, might even take tonybarber's advice and join the party...maybe

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 7:27pm

I think Labor's move on the refugee issue is a smart one it takes away the advantage Tony has on saying he has been successful on the issue and will take that factor out of the next election.

Labors policy didn't work the arrival numbers were huge and if they had stayed in and kept the same policy's numbers would have only kept increasing leading to all kinds of problems from economical, social, security, quarantine, even environmental.

Hopefully we can get to a point and it what we should be aiming for where we can close down all the dentition centres or all but one if we still need to process very small amounts of people.

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barley Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 7:30pm

Thats the ballsiest thing billy has done yet..and i agree with him..but like johnny howard we should decide who comes into australia. We are a tolerant people but in the words of the great adam goodes at the sydney swans.."no dickheads"

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Sheepdog Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 9:10pm

Sypkan wrote "if i was an egomaniac I would scroll back through the abbott thread and show the date and time i said that about six months ago"

Egoism doesn't suit you, Sypo.... Smugness is more your style...... Stick with it.... It works for you.... ;)

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Sheepdog Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 9:20pm

Indo and barley........ Do you know what the difference is between perception and reality?

Here's an article from News ltd..... Yes, NEWS LTD, back when the "boat people" thing was taking off during Labor's reign;
From the article - "Statistics from 2008 showed at least 13 asylum seekers arrive through Australian airports daily, more than 32 times the number of boat people supposedly ''flooding'' across our maritime borders in that year. "
http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on...

Yep.... Waaaaay more refugees come by plane..... But perception and reality, aye...... Labor is now jumping on the great con, joining Abbott in the great facade... hence the left faction's disdain....
Gutter politics... The downward spiral in decency continues.... But "whatever it takes", right?

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floyd Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 10:26pm
barley wrote:

Thats the ballsiest thing billy has done yet..and i agree with him..but like johnny howard we should decide who comes into australia. We are a tolerant people but in the words of the great adam goodes at the sydney swans.."no dickheads"

barley rewrites history twice ...... dishonest work there son

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barley Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 10:58pm

Hey floggy even you a labor ironed on supported gotta realise this is a good idea..another 'john howard lite'..you want both sides to have the greater good..well this is a start..i agree with most things conservative but in the end i want then to look after me..i.e farmers so which ever side i see that does that will get a tick

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barley Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 11:02pm

Sheepie you just stuffed yourself..ok to come by prpier channels..not ok to risk lives at sea..get it?probs not

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Sheepdog Saturday, 25 Jul 2015 at 11:37pm

"we decide who comes to our country", barley.... John howard......
So overstaying your visa, being able to afford to fly here, yadda yadda..... That's proper channels? That's a "refugee"? An asylum seeker?....

Gutter politics... The downward spiral in decency continues....

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 8:55am
Sheepdog wrote:

Indo and barley........ Do you know what the difference is between perception and reality?

Here's an article from News ltd..... Yes, NEWS LTD, back when the "boat people" thing was taking off during Labor's reign;
From the article - "Statistics from 2008 showed at least 13 asylum seekers arrive through Australian airports daily, more than 32 times the number of boat people supposedly ''flooding'' across our maritime borders in that year. "
http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on...

Yep.... Waaaaay more refugees come by plane..... But perception and reality, aye...... Labor is now jumping on the great con, joining Abbott in the great facade... hence the left faction's disdain....
Gutter politics... The downward spiral in decency continues.... But "whatever it takes", right?

Sorry Sheepdog with all respect that is an ignorant and naive way to look at it, just like that article that looks at the past and current situation under current policy from a very western bubble perspective rather than the reality of the world and ignores the certain implications of a so called soft approach such as the Greens propose. (mind you only because they know they can say what they want to get votes but will never actually get to use their policy)

There is a HUGE difference between anyone arriving by plane compared to by boat, by plane you have a huge amount of control you can screen people you know who they are because they have a passport, you know where they have come from because they have a departure point, they then must pass through customs to ensure they don't bring in disease either spread by human or plant or food matter, leather or wood products etc and if need be you can send them back, when people arrive by boat you have no control whatsoever on all these points.

Many of those points in that article are points that can change very quickly they are not set in stone they are dictated by policy's, if you look at the yearly boat arrivals history you can see the huge changes in numbers that arrived during labours reign, yes to a degree they are dictated by situations overseas but they are mostly dictated by policy.

We are currently in a very good situation in that unlike many countries we have the situation relatively under control, in the years that labor were in (and i voted for them) we saw numbers sky rocket but the reality is with 60 million people in the world displaced and at least that amount toughing it out but potential refugees that was only a glimpse of the tip of the iceberg and if it had continued we would have seen a steady and uncontrollable increase that would lead to all kinds of issues from economic to social to security to quarantine even environmental issues.

Currently we see the cream of the crop in regard to refugees, the ones that can afford to by pass refugee camps, because they have a degree of money and high chance of having skills or education, including a large percentage with english skills this is because the whole system ensures its hard to get here and ensures the cost to get here stays high, this ensures those that are accepted generally have a good chance of becoming tax payers if accepted.

However a policy that was basically a if you can get here you can stay here policy like the greens policy would see huge numbers arriving and would see the cost to get here with people smugglers drop substantially as it would almost become a legal business the drop in cost would result in a much different demographic of refugees the demographic most refugees fall into, ones that have little to no money, little to no skills including english skills, the result of large numbers of these people getting here would not only cause all kinds of problems associated with low social economic situations but would also become a long term burden on the tax payer.

A policy like the greens suggest that includes fast processing (within 30 days) is an absolute recipe for disaster not only would you see large numbers of refuges turn up which would mean you would have to continually be raising the yearly quota because under their polices you can not detain them, you would also see huge numbers of economic refugees willing to roll the dice on losing 30 days to have a chance of a new life, i know this is fact as personally id encourage and even help my poor Indo friends to get a fishing boat to OZ and give it a shot, especially if there was ever a policy that allowed people to live and work in the community until they were processed as has often been suggested this would be an amazing opportunity for my friends even at the minimum wage they could earn more in a month than they could in a year, the fact they would most likely be sent home is irrelevant as they would be going home with a nice stash of cash and a crash course in english plus an experience of Australia.

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tonybarber Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 9:28am

Some goods points Indo...there is no decency in loss of lives. Your thought of allowing refugees to work leads to the program that was used post world war 2. Then, jobs were created, arranged in the wider community, so they did not just let them out to fend for themselves but rather sent them out bush. It worked and worked well. This a major policy change and you will find supported by many Labor members.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 10:38am

The thing i find confusing about the issue is, its not illegal to apply for asylum as we are a signatory to the refugee convention.

Indonesia under international law must allow people a safe passage to pass through too get to a country signed to the refugee convention (that being us)

But its illegal for people to bridge that gap between leaving Indonesian land and getting to Australian waters? We call them people smugglers but really all they are doing is providing a service to get people to where they have in a way been promised they can flee too.

IMO Australia's stance is extremely conflicting i understand why we can not allow people to just turn up, but why are we signed to the refugee convention then? IMO we need to have the balls to say, look its an outdated document the worlds now different we can't be bound by it and need to decide how we do things.(which is not to say we can not till take in refugees)

This will also shift the responsibility to Indonesia and we can then blame them for allowing people to pass through and depart from their shores, but currently i think we are in the wrong and Indonesia should be extremely pissed off with us.

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 11:47am

Indo.... You write "There is a HUGE difference between anyone arriving by plane compared to by boat, by plane you have a huge amount of control you can screen people you know who they are because they have a passport, "

Well...... the screening didn't work real well with this guy....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Haron_Monis

Didn't work in the usa with this guy either.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta

This is a race to the bottom of the barrel, Indo..... It may work for Labor, this tactic, but this perpetuated shit continues to affect the social psyche of the Australian populace and character....
The way I look at a law, or a policy, is "what if the whole world did it"..... What if those fleeing from war torn areas were turned back everywhere.... We saw the USA do this to jews during ww2...... "the death ship".....
A real leader guides and convinces his followers to do what is good and what is right.... A populist uses emotion, even when it is morally wrong....

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old-dog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 12:22pm

So how many is too many? If the greens had their way we would throw open our borders and roll out the red carpet to the whole god-damned World and say "come on down" our hard working tax payers want to pay for you and your eleven kids to live on welfare for the rest of your lives. In my humble opinion this is the only issue that Abbott has got right and Labor should get on board in order to honor the wishes of the Australian public. If people like Sara Hanson Young feel so strongly about this issue why don't they open their own spare rooms for refugees? Cheers.

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:18pm

^^^^^ See, indo.... A perfect example of what has happened to the psyche of common aussie under Howard and now Abbott... And Shorten has joined........ A crass generalization with "eleven kids", "hard working taxpayers", "live on welfare for the rest of your lives".......
Old dog is obviously fine with this; http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/10/15/abbott-says-planned-457-vi...

Are you relateded to Gina Rhinehart, old dog? She's been calling for more non english speaking slave labour....

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barley Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:22pm

Are you living on welfare sheepie?

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:27pm

^^^^^ Indo, note barleys comment..... Another example of what has happened to the australia psyche..... A Tracy Grimsure watcher for sure....

No, why do you ask, barley? Pretty sure I've posted what I've been doing..... Photo's of my property I just sold.... So why do you ask?

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Blowin Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:45pm

Is it okay to be against both open borders and 457 visa abuse , Sheepy ?

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:51pm

It's ok to be whatever, blowin.... Doesn't mean i have to agree.... Doesn't mean you have to agree with me.....
That's what debate is all about.....

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barley Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:54pm

Seems like you have a gripe about the system.a system that has no doubt supported you and all of us at some stage in our lives.not only are you happy to use this system but also whinge about it.

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 1:55pm

Blowin... I have a question for you..... When a country decides to declare war invade another country, and bombs are dropped, people killed, people displaced, vaccum created, should the invading country take some responsibility for the human suffering of he innocent civilians?
A simple yes or no would be good...

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 2:03pm
barley wrote:

Seems like you have a gripe about the system.a system that has no doubt supported you and all of us at some stage in our lives.not only are you happy to use this system but also whinge about it.

Hmmmm. That's pathetic.... From my disdain on current politics, which btw I am not alone (FAR from it), Barley has come up up with a generic deduction about me having a gripe about the "system", and questions whether I'm on the pension..... Not cool, barley...... Play the ball, mate....
Should we all be good little troglodytes and not question those we vote in like you?....... Don't ever have a whinge here about anything the government does, Barley.... Practice what you preach.... You know I'll be watching......

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barley Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 2:07pm

I wouldnt say your questioning sheepo.and your theory about what if the world did it well ,we would be in loads more trouble IMO

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 2:36pm

Barley, I'm just wondering how we went from a robust but fair debate on Shorten, the Labor party, and asylum policy, to questioning one's form of income.... Absolutely chalk and cheese..... i'd assume some that post here may be unemployed, perhaps even on an old age pension, disability, maybe even single parent.......... Because they are on the government teet, does that mean they aren't allowed to comment? Elitist???
BTW, yes I was on the dole back in the bob hawke surf team days.... Probably the best 12 months of my life lol..... Also, in the early noughties, i had a few medical issues. But this "system" you speak of deemed me not ill enough for sickness benefits, and due to my wifes income at the time, I would've only got 80 odd buck a fortnight, but would have to attend all these ridiculous meetings and employment shit.... We decided to say "fuck you" to your "system", and my wife supported me till I got better....

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Blowin Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 2:56pm

Sheepy - yes.

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barley Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 2:58pm

Sheepo you started it talkin about 'hard working taxpayers' you also started with the 'tracey grimshaw watchers'.you gotta reread your posts before you start arguing wrongly dude. My whole point is the system you whinge and cry over is the same system that wouldve given you money and has given you money.its easy to be a keyboard warrior

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floyd Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 4:04pm

"sheepo you started it ....." how puerile

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barley Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 5:49pm

Haha I never wanna grow up flogster!

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tonybarber Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 6:03pm

From what I can see (specifically the Labor conference) Shortens decision to support the 'stop the boats policy' has possibly changed the game to a more even level. This depends on how the left handled this. The next week will provide the result. But the 'system' of democracy is working well, from this angle. Can't be too bad a system as there are a few that want to be part of it.

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Sheepdog Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 8:25pm

Barley writes "Sheepo you started it talkin about 'hard working taxpayers' you also started with the 'tracey grimshaw watchers'.you gotta reread your posts before you start arguing wrongly dude. "

Firstly, are you using two personalities here? Are you barley and old dog??? Because the hard working taxpayer thing was an old dog quote, but you've taken it personally.....
Note I had inverted commas around not only "hard working taxpayers", but also " "eleven kids", and, "live on welfare for the rest of your lives"....... I was quoting old dog (maybe you aye) and his crass generalization...... You've deliberately taken it out of context....
And the Tracy grimsure comment was after YOU started it.....
Stop being a weazel , bro......

Barbs..... It's populist.... Crass... But I'm bashing my head against a wall.... It's pointless going on any further, as people either don't understand, or don't want to understand.... cheers....

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Blowin Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 9:12pm

Tony Abbott appears in front of several Australian flags and gets written off .

The Labour Party appears in front of a huge sign declaring " Advance Australia " and not a mention is made of it.

Could someone please attempt to explain this discrepancy .

Please try to avoid the content of each parties message as this has not been relevant to the vitriol that Abbott received .

He was deplored for the flag issue on top of, as well as and separately to the message he delivered .

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floyd Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 9:48pm
Blowin wrote:

Tony Abbott appears in front of several Australian flags and gets written off .

The Labour Party appears in front of a huge sign declaring " Advance Australia " and not a mention is made of it.

Could someone please attempt to explain this discrepancy .

Please try to avoid the content of each parties message as this has not been relevant to the vitriol that Abbott received .

He was deplored for the flag issue on top of, as well as and separately to the message he delivered .

Whether you accept it or not (totally up to you) political commentators in this country since Howard's time have been suspicious of the "political" motivation of politicians standing in front of Australian flags particularly when discussing matters of national security (real or otherwise e.g. refugees).

Of course none of this is new given Samuel Johnsons' 1775 quote that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

Now, its an unquestionable fact that this year Tony Abbott has increased the number of flags that he stands behind when talking about national security; I think we are up to 12 now. Contrast this with the French President who stood in front of one French flag earlier in the year after the terrorist attack in France. I'll let you be the judge on that.

Politically, I think the conservatives and Abbott think so called national security issues are their strong card with good reason i.e. the electorate don't like changing governments if they feel threatened. So it therefore follows its in the best interests of the government to keep people "alert and not alarmed" and to stand in front of as many Australian flags as you can.

Not sure about comparing 12 flags as a prop to a banner saying Advance Australia is relevant. Perhaps you could explain how that feeds into the patriotism issue, as above.

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Blowin Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 10:07pm

You don't think that " Advance Australia " is patriotic ?

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barley Sunday, 26 Jul 2015 at 10:32pm

Sheepo after your run in with uplift you take any comments personally. My whole point is you whinge about the system but we have what we have because of the system..you missed that buddy.it has nothing to do with your personal life.but now i know how to get a reaction out of you if i ever need to! ;)!! You'll need to tuffen up if ya hanging in south oz..its a cunt of a joint..yeew