The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

seeds's picture
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seeds Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 10:50pm

?si=PZsnnRackqQ8LKgj

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southernraw Friday, 8 Mar 2024 at 11:37pm
ashsam wrote:

Even the brothers can’t agree.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/latrell-mitchell-trashes-anthony-mundi...

This is your reply?
Not sure how your day was, but mine was spent at a funeral.
Still gave you the courtesy of a thoughtful reply, and all you have is a link that shows a lack of comprehension.
The fact i have to explain prep school racism to you,...and you still can't comprehend it.
Just as i thought. Nothing but mud between those ears.

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ashsam Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 11:52am

Bring back blowin and brutus

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Supafreak Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 12:26pm
ashsam wrote:

Bring back blowin and brutus

I think you will find they are both free to comment as SJY & Sharkman

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AlfredWallace Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 12:41pm
ashsam wrote:

Bring back blowin and brutus

The shear fact you don’t even know who Brutus is , further highlights how much of a tool you really are. AW

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seeds Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 12:48pm

And Blowin had issues with Brutus.

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basesix Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 1:00pm

speaking of historic injustices, apologies @southern, my last comments to you, made during the surf comps, I reread the next day.. intended as chummy and the sort of thing my mum would say to me if I was underslept, but just sounded weird and critical. Not my intention at all, sorry. dehydration after 10km metro beach walk in 40 degrees is my only excuse.

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southernraw Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 1:05pm

All good @basesix. You're all time. No need to apologise.
That whale was hilarious btw.
Steppin back from online stuff a little bit.
Cheers.

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basesix Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 1:08pm

Cheers mate.

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ashsam Wednesday, 13 Mar 2024 at 2:30pm
AlfredWallace wrote:
ashsam wrote:

Bring back blowin and brutus

The shear fact you don’t even know who Brutus is , further highlights how much of a tool you really are. AW

sure
AS lol

ps easy to call someone a tool from behind your keyboard, face to face don't think so.

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truebluebasher Tuesday, 26 Mar 2024 at 5:43pm

PM Howard's 25th Harmony Day Highlights
Token piss take day to denounce Aboriginality as an unruly form of Multiculturalism.
21st March 1999...Celebrates the mass killing of objectors to apartheid passport
https://www.mamamia.com.au/harmony-day-history/

Howard : "Tick & Tick ...no need to change the date!"

33 Views :

7 views :

109 views :

Sing along...all are invited to perform this song at school for free (No fees are charged!)

Department of Home Affairs...Flag Waving High Teas / Luncheons / Picnics / Citizenship Ceremonies
https://www.harmony.gov.au/events/harmony-week-events

Harmony Week culminates with Parliament rushing laws to deport and or jail all orange people.
Oz Parliaments will be lit in Orange tonight to celebrate the Deportation of Orange People
Like to think tbb is making that up...sadly not....just another celebration that turned to shit...or more shitty!
Happy Harmony Week to Past & Present Detained Orange People & have a nice holiday until you die!
https://www.examiner.com.au/story/8568658/immigrants-could-face-jail-if-...
https://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/WebCMS/LatestNews.nsf/News/Harmony%20Week

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Slackjawedyokel Wednesday, 27 Mar 2024 at 4:51pm

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 27 Mar 2024 at 5:36pm
Slackjawedyokel wrote:

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

True dat.

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ashsam Wednesday, 27 Mar 2024 at 7:28pm
basesix's picture
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basesix Friday, 29 Mar 2024 at 1:08pm

interesting Qld news article out of southwest Victoria, re colonial monuments
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/victoria/destroy-monuments-to-...

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Friday, 29 Mar 2024 at 2:26pm

Anybody see this episode of Atlanta?
All about reparations.

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/watch/2014235715878

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I focus Friday, 29 Mar 2024 at 3:17pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Slackjawedyokel wrote:

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

True dat.

Actually its ignorance there is a huge difference at many levels between those living in remote areas / townships and cities.

Still what Eddie Betts kids copped in their own backyard highlights the disparity even for city Aboriginals.

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truebluebasher Tuesday, 2 Apr 2024 at 3:20pm

Sounds of Silence (Voice Transparency)

Political Parties ($ Most > $ Least)
NO = [LNP] $2.8m + [AUP] $1.9m
YES = [ALP] $0.9m + [Teals] $300,000

(Total Unions) + Solo Corps = $1m each...NSW Uni $11m + $7m foundation

Most honest angelic goody goody Samaritans were always gonna be the YES Groups...Boo!
(93.6%) Uluru Group (NSW Uni) disclosed = $10.3m/$11m
(89.36%) Yes23 disclosed $42m/$47m

(vs)

Least trustworthy most cowardly Loudest Pack of Dr NO Evil Bastards collectively lost their voice!
(NO surprises here then...[LNP] rogues gallery of Faceless Overlords pulling puppet strings!)
(41.6%) Fair Australia disclosed less than half... $4.9m / $11.8m
(0.98%) Advance Australia disclosed $102,000 but received $1.3m and spent $10.4m ...well durr!

Shadow Indigenous Minister #1Price 4 PM declared less than 1% of her Indigenous Voting Donations.
Dutto : "Oz least accountable Pollie Jacinta will soon be in charge of $4.2b /yr Indigenous Budget!"
Jacinta : "Oz Voters mandated $4.116b to me and $8.4m tax for the rest of my Mob...Luv White Straya!"

AEC : "Unless we hear of any other...Nope!"
"60% of Oz are good with that Jacinta! It's all yours...Go the whole hog!"
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/16/02/76598181-12634169-No_campaign...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-02/referendum-disclosures-yes-comfor...

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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 2 Apr 2024 at 5:24pm

From today:

"Yes campaign groups received more than five times as much in donations as no side in voice referendum"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/02/voice-referendum-...

Then add in the fact Labor were in power so naturally had the advantage of having the spotlight and media attention, then add in the info campaign itself naturally favoured the Yes camp, then add in all the media attention and support from sporting bodies, musician's, celebrities, big business, banks, mining companies, religious groups, universities, councils etc

But end of the day democracy won, cause a result couldn't be bought.

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truebluebasher Wednesday, 3 Apr 2024 at 3:01am

( Democracy has long lost it's Voice )
Democracy Peaked in mid 90's falling from Howard's executive overrules by 0.5% each year...
2022 Federal 89.8% Reffo 89.9% By Elections = Aston 85.6% Fadden 72.5% Dunkley 83.7%
Govts beg AEC to do something...like OZ/US Child Medicare > Direct / secured Immigrant Parent Rolls.

Democracy pump primes [L] FUD Boomers but is restricted to lowly 50% of Aboriginal Population.
36% are too young to Vote + 14% live too remote to ever know of AEC to ever venture or not!
Highest First Nation Election turnouts = 24%-50% or (25% of First Nation Population)
12% of total remote First Nation Vote in NT Elections (re: Vic / SA State Voice Votes...par for the course)

Oz Democracy rates as poorest most deprived example of Indigenous Voice & getting worse...plain sad!
Well maybe just us non voters notice such obvious deprived anomaly...let Oz voters defend it...go for it!

Clear to all Academics that mandating Democracy is #1 known & proven racist act upon Aborigines!
Any Govt advocating mandatory Elections for 1st Nation legitimacy is unjust and only escalates racism.

Oz / UN +World screamed that out loud from Start > Campaign > Reffo Result shocking the World.
Not one nation in favour of outcome...all wishing & championing Hell YES! Now already Oz...just do it!

First Nation ever beg UN Health Advocates to yield more direct just outcomes with $4.2b yr budget!

5 year ~ First Nation Oz Democracy Timeline + all failed itemized costings below

2019 Fed Election ( First Nation ) ~Turnout 50%
2020 NT Election ( First Nation ) ~ Turnout 24%-50%
2022 (1987 est : Survey held just after each election) 2,500 Aust Election Study
Strongly/Support for recognition of Indigenous Australians in Constitution
Green 93% ALP 91% Oz 80% [LNP] 69% Others 66% (So what happened?)

Uluru Statement (Quote $27.7m > Total Cost $83m) Separate Cost is Independent of Reffo
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parlia...
+ (NSW Uni Uluru = $11m > Includes Reffo Campaign)

2021 Voice Reffo (Quote $188m > 2023 [L] Deluxe Model $450m)

Nov 2022 (NPA) Oppose Voice Reffo to Parliament (We want no part of it...Cough!)

Feb 2023 [L] Debate: Despise Paternalism > Support Less Govt, Individual-Community Liberty = [Voice]
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/08/liberal-senator-a...
Fed / State [L] Support Reffo [YES] ...but soon all changes...
[L] Vow to oppose Voice unless demands are met = Restore Full Public Reffo Fanfare + Booklets.
[L] Gold Star Reffo Cost goes thru the Roof with Dutto Wrapping his entire Schools with his Reffo merch!
[L] Campaign...Liberals reserve our right to forever control First Nation...[Vote NO]...Can't breathe!

May/June 2023 ($85m)Vic Voice ~ Turnout 10%

Aug 2023 National Party now Support holding the Voice Reffo & Campaign for NO Vote.
Nationals are now Championing the Reffo & branding Nationals Price as the Loudest Voice in Reffo!
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=863973288417015&set=pb.100044130549...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=868166187997725&set=pb.100044130...

Coalition went from hating the Voice to Drooling all over it...more Division Please...Polls Skyrocketing!

Aug 2023 LNP ($450m) 1st [L] Reffo enrollments were well ahead of any AEC Reffo Writs
Fake [L] Reffo #1 was declared invalid & banned by AEC
Many [L] voters were duped & failed to re-enroll in time for the 2nd of 4 [L] Reffos" (see 9th Oct)

Sept 2023 AEC Enrollment 97.7% First Nation 94.1%

Sept 2023 LNP were campaigning 4 Indigenous Reffos (2x [Vote No] Reffos + 2x [Vote Yes] Reffos)
[LNP] Fed / State Leaders flipped from [YES]< > [NO]< > [ 1/2/3/4 Reffos?] < > [Don't Know] Chaos!
Premium [L] Shitfuckery ramped Bully Mayhem > [L] Polls Skyrocketing to record high 20% [L] gains!

9 Oct 2023 [L] Finally apologize for Harvesting souls with their Fake #1 Reffo
[L] If ya hurry ya can still enroll in our New improved Posh Gold Standard #2 Reffo.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/09/indigenous-voice-...

14 Oct 2023 Oz ($450m) OZ Voice ~ Turnout 89.9% > First Nation Turnout (?) Taboo!
No amount of record spend + AEC / Green Ant + Reviews can record silent indigenous Voice!
If none know how many First Nation must scream to get our attention, then none ever have to listen!
AEC know exactly how many First Nation voted...so why not share whateva voided indigenous turnout?
Guessing we're talkin' record high Enrollment plummeted pretty fast...too fast for our eyes to even notice!

Oct / Nov 2023 Remaining [L] State Leaders cowardly tore up their First Nation Promised Treaties!

March 2024 ($6.1m) SA Voice Turnout under 10%

Upcoming #3 #4 [L] Reffos

2025 Election ($450m) [L] Vote [YES] First Nation Constitutional Recognition Reffo?
2026/27 If elected Mid Term ($450m) [L] Vote [YES] First Nation Constitutional Recognition Reffo?
[L] Leader...has never ruled out his proposed Reffos ..lower rank [LNP] Members give mixed answers!

Almost as if we exported Oz Voice angst to NZ...Good Luck Cuz!

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Pop Down Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 9:05am

tbb

How does Democracy PEAK ?

In the US , voting is not compulsory like here , turnout is lower , but its still a democracy .

Perhaps , Australians just don't like Politicians wasting our time with a Political , Referendum .

Politicians , hand balling THEIR work , 2 us .

Maybe they will FINALLY get the message , after The Voice was Flat .

A Pleb , not a Ref , might also be a better idea FFS .

Australians are just sick and tired of Political Inactivity , NOT Democracy !

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 11:16am

"How does Democracy PEAK ?"

Maybe check this out Pop.

Here's an intro.

"...various measures used by political scientists to measure the health and well-being of representative democracy are on a downward trend. Amongst these measures, four stand out:

i)voter turnout,
ii) party membership,
iii) trust in politicians, and
iv) interest in politics.

i) The golden age of voter turnout was half a century ago, and since then we have seen a fairly steady decline more or less across the board as far as the advanced democracies are concerned.

ii) [another] measure of the decline of representative democracy is the decline of party membership.
Parties are the crucial point of mediation between citizens and the institutions of governance and are thus a vital measure of health as far as political engagement is concerned.
Again, the picture is clear.
In the 1960s it was common to see around 30 per cent of the voting population in the advanced democracies as members of political parties.
Today we see a fraction of that figure, often as low as one to two per cent of the voting population.
Citizens are deserting political parties in droves.
The result is that parties are forced to huddle up to other sources of financial support, notably corporations and private benefactors.
This feeds the problem of distance from the ordinary citizen, creating a vicious circle.
The closer they get to business, the less they seem to care about the needs and wishes of the ordinary voter, or indeed party member.

iii) Survey after survey shows that we hold politicians in near complete contempt. A recent survey in Australia found that only four per cent of citizens thought that politicians could 'almost always' be trusted. Another survey placed politicians in last place among a basket of professionals that included second-hand car salesmen, lawyers and estate agents.

iv) Interest in politics. Whatever measure one cares to choose, whether it be the number of pages in the newspapers devoted to coverage of mainstream politics, the number of hours broadcast on the popular or mainstream media devoted to elections and parliament, or the general knowledge of ordinary citizens, the picture is bleak.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedu...

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Pop Down Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 12:06pm

That's all interest in what our politicians are up to , how they are doing , how much we Trust them and how tired we are of them stuffing up .

Nothing 2 doing with Democracy !

Also , we are more busy today .

What Unionists want to join the fn Labor party , today ?

Australians STILL care about having the Right , 2 throw OUT , anyone we don';t like .

Try and take away our Democracy , and Watch Australia FIGHT back .

Hitler tried it last time .

Our Democracy has not Peaked , it's just a Lull in Interest , as our current crop of politicians are NOT Inspiring !!! imho .

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stunet Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 11:57am
AndyM wrote:

The result is that parties are forced to huddle up to other sources of financial support, notably corporations and private benefactors.
This feeds the problem of distance from the ordinary citizen, creating a vicious circle.
The closer they get to business, the less they seem to care about the needs and wishes of the ordinary voter, or indeed party member.

The nub of it.

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 12:59pm

Nothing to do with democracy Pop?

Stone the crows! :)

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 1:46pm
stunet wrote:
AndyM wrote:

The result is that parties are forced to huddle up to other sources of financial support, notably corporations and private benefactors.
This feeds the problem of distance from the ordinary citizen, creating a vicious circle.
The closer they get to business, the less they seem to care about the needs and wishes of the ordinary voter, or indeed party member.

The nub of it.

I was wondering if it was the chicken or the egg - did the involvement of big business drive people away from being card carrying party members or did the decline in membership open the doors for the corporations but it seems like it might have been the latter as party membership really started to decline in the 60s.
At the same time you could argue that this profound dissatisfaction with party politics has lead to a real revival in independent movements and grassroots campaigning.
Some have labelled this as being "rusted off".
This has been going on in earnest since maybe around 2013 and clearly bore real fruit at the last federal election.
Campaign models and strategies for independents are becoming so sophisticated that they are more effective than those employed by the two majors, which can only be a good thing for democracy.

One point I would disagree with in the APH "The Contemporary Crisis of Representative Democracy" paper is their claim that people are less interested in politics.
I think people are more and more interested in politics but haven't been able to work out where to focus that interest.
With on-line campaigns, crowdfunding, town hall meetings and the rest of it,
the game has irrevocably changed.
Especially since they have seen tangible results on the crossbench

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flollo Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 4:04pm

If that is the criteria Andy then one could argue that the CCP in China is a pinnacle of modern democracy. Nearly 100 million people are members of the party and one needs to be approved before joining. There is even a 1-year probationary term before being fully accepted.

My point is: the Chinese are eager to get involved while we are disillusioned and uninterested.

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 4:14pm

It's a single criteria in a democracy - we were talking abut "peak democracy".

Agree with your point though.

We need to get our shit together.

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AndyM Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 4:14pm

Folio I feel this is better over on the Next Federal Election thread.

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soggydog Thursday, 4 Apr 2024 at 5:07pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Slackjawedyokel wrote:

What did you expect with the imposition of a socialist/ welfare state ?

No one was graffiting shopfronts prior to the introduction of the infinity indigenous dole in the 1950’s.

Blame it on racism…but it’s the same outcome of universal basic income everywhere it’s been imposed ( without omnipotent / militaristic police oversight )

But yeah….it’s colonialism !

Cough cough. Why isn’t it happening anywhere except the remote towns and cities funnelled with free weekly payments ? Cough cough

It’s not colonialism, it’s socialism….the universal basic income pushed by neo socialists/ globalists will have exactly the same outcome

True dat.

Socialism would also allow for everyone to be treated equally, which in the above shoddy/lazy equivocation we know not to be the case. There’s a lot more to the situation than social security. But that’s just my opinion.

Not surprised at ur cheerleader SJY.

Supafreak's picture
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Supafreak Saturday, 13 Apr 2024 at 7:51am

Muzza’s fizza , next rort ? Try politics again ? Love the genuine smile on this pair of cockroaches. https://theklaxon.com.au/mundines-10m-mining-deal-collapses/ IMG-6339. Have we got a deal for you .