Back To Black With Amos From Lucid Glassing
Back To Black With Amos From Lucid Glassing
For over three decades, the surfboard industry has been flirting with carbon fibre.
Carbon first appeared as lone strips in the early-90s, used to reinforce the fibreglass, it's since been used in foot and tail patches, and even full wraps from the short-lived Aviso Surfboards. The only shaper to use carbon long-term is Hayden Cox whose FibreFlex tech employs carbon to strengthen the rails along a stringerless blank.
In recent years, carbon has again appeared as a full wrap laminate, most commonly seen in small wave performance boards sporting the Dark Arts logo.
Here in Australia, Amos Barriskill from Lucid Glassing at Ballina, NSW, is specialising in carbon and the recent interest in carbon has seen his order book swell. Some of the shapers who've worked with Amos include Phil Myers, Wayne Webster, Maurice Cole, Dylan Perese, Greg Webber, Mitchell Rae, and there are many, many more.
Swellnet called Amos to find out what's happening with the resurgence in black boards.
Swellnet: How long has Lucid Glassing been around?
Amos Barriskill: I've been glassing boards for fifteen years, but I only put a name to it three or four years ago. It started when I was building my own surfboards in PU, then I began glassing a few of the local guys' boards here and there. Just a small number of boards.
The turning point was when I got into hydrofoiling - that got me interested in using different materials for different strengths and weights, and that's where I discovered carbon. It's really only been the last twelve months that I've gone full circle and returned to surfboards. That's where my focus is and it seems to be getting received quite well.
For those unaware, can you explain the properties of carbon fibre when used in surfboards?
To take it back to basics, the main characteristic of carbon is that you can build a stronger, lighter board that's going to last longer - and that's especially important for a 100-kilo plus guy like myself. We can build something that really feels like a performance board that's going to last a much longer period of time.
When it's coupled with EPS, it just keeps its pop and its flex. All those nice things we enjoy.
Phil Myers admires his reflection in the polish of a ten channel carbon wrap.
How does carbon compare for durability, especially around rocky breaks?
The way we build them, the carbon is on the outside of the board like an outside shell. We do a structural layer of fibreglass underneath the carbon - sometimes it's a six-ounce, sometimes it's a four depending on the schedule.
The carbon's got to be hit much harder to have an effect. Obviously, any board that rolls over the rocks is going to get damaged, but it's way more resistant in general, particularly compared to boards made of regular polyester and PU.
People say full carbon boards don't have much flex. How do you address that?
Carbon will be much stiffer given that it's a much stronger fibre, but it's about finding the right combination of materials. For our performance carbon boards, we use stringerless EPS blanks. That combination brings back some pretty good flex properties.
Also, I hear from guys that have been on carbon boards for twelve months, eighteen months, or even longer, and they're still getting that real fresh springiness and pop out of their boards.
I've heard it said that carbon has a longer 'memory'. Is that why people like Mick Mackie and Mitchell Rae use it in their flex tails?
Yeah, possibly. I imagine the flex properties you mention - the long-lasting flex - would be the combination of epoxy resin and the carbon.
As you know, a PU/PE board can feel dull after six months or twelve months, whereas it seems when epoxy is combined with the carbon, that flex just lives on.
Recently, Nev Hyman visited the factory to show Amos a carbon board made in the nineties. Nev has since made a run of modern shortboards glassed by Amos.
What's your most common build for the average surfer?
For an average surfer who wants a performance board that feels really light and poppy, I'd suggest stringerless EPS with what we call a standard layout—six-ounce carbon bottom with four-ounce fibreglass and six-ounce carbon deck. That board is going to be potentially lighter than your super lightweight four-and-four PU and have a much longer-lasting, stronger glass job due to the process and materials we're using.
Also, we've done a few bigger guns. We did a gun for Webby [Wayne Webster] who has a customer who typically rides 8'6" to 9'0"s in PU with double-six glass jobs. We built him EPS and carbon wrap with a very similar regime: double-six top and bottom, but carbon, and he said that board paddled into waves much better due to the EPS.
It's good feedback: It's not very often that you pull a board out that big so it has to work.
Of the builds that I've seen, most have been shortboards. Is working with big wave guns new territory for you?
Yeah. It's something we're experimenting on. I'm using a PVC or a high-density foam stringer up to forty mills, so up to four centimetres thick, just to give the boards a bit of spine...
Hang on, did you say four centimetres..?
Yeah, yeah. A four centimetre PVC stringer, so it's like an 80-pound density foam, which we glue up. That gives the boards a little extra weight, a little extra spine, but it doesn't stiffen the board up so much that it affects the spring of the board, if that makes sense, because obviously, the carbon is giving the board the stiffness that it needs, but we can still put that spine in there.
"It's about finding the correct blend of materials" - In this instance an EPS blank with a four centimetre PVC stringer, all wrapped in carbon.
You're working with epoxy resin and a black laminate: I guess there's less worry about the yellowing effect of aging epoxy?
I think that was a big industry mistake from the early 2000s. A lot of epoxy boards were getting built with incorrect resins, and that's where you saw yellowing and production problems. It really didn't do the EPS epoxy process any justice.
Epoxy resins have improved a lot in the last ten to fifteen years.
You think epoxy resins don't discolour the way they used to..?
I remember seeing epoxy boards that were just horribly yellow, and I feel like that's almost a thing of the past due to improvement in resins. These days, PU or epoxy resins will have some form of an optimiser in it, and whether that optimiser is UV stable or not will depend on how the board's going to look in twelve months time.
With our carbon boards, we actually use what's called a clear resin with no optimiser at all, because we're obviously not chasing that really bright finish—we want to achieve a clear finish.
OK, fair enough. Let's talk about other practicalities: Do black boards get too hot in the sun?
You could understand I have this conversation every single day...
Let's go over it once and for all.
If you're buying a black board, you have to treat it like it's a black board. There's an option to put coloured resin tint over it, or airbrush it, spray it. But if you're forking out for a carbon board, you want to see the carbon, right?
So it's just a matter of education - get in the habit of using your board bag when it's in the car, put it in the shade on the beach, don't leave it on the sand in the sun, and on long walks around the point keep the wax away from the sun.
Tell us about your relationship with Dark Arts.
Dark Arts from California really brought carbon vacuum bag construction to the surf industry with the biggest impact. They had some pretty big brands and high-profile surfers riding those boards. It was Dan Thomson [Tomo] who basically joined the dots—he'd signed up with Dark Arts on a few of his models and saw what we were doing here in Australia was very similar.
We've just taken the license to build Dark Arts boards in Australia. Our business ethos is very similar—we don't want to mass produce, we want to build quality over quantity.
How does the vacuum bagging process work?
We're building the board almost exactly the same as you would typically, except once the board's been laminated, we're curing it under vacuum. As that resin and cloth is curing, everything's getting squeezed together as tight as we want it to go. There's actually a layer in the bagging process called breather cloth that's designed to absorb resin. You're putting on the same amount of resin to correctly wet out all the cloth, but as that board cures under vacuum, it's absorbing the excess that you wouldn't be able to get out by hand.
How many carbon surfboards are you producing?
Overall carbon boards, we're doing around 20 to 25 a week, but for surfboards it's more like 5 to 10 at this stage. Those numbers are definitely increasing as it's growing.
Though he typically shapes guns of varying lengths, lately Mitchell Rae is having fun working on the model he calls the Phaza. It began as a design collaboration with Harry Bryant, who rode a 5'6" version at last year's Pipe Masters, and has Mitchell's V2 stringer - see image at far left for a visual explanation - while the latest run is also wrapped in carbon.
What collaborations do you have coming up?
We're just about to release a collaboration with Mitchell Rae. As a slightly younger board builder, getting the tick of approval from Mitchell is a nice feather to have in your hat. We're doing a run of his Phaza model, which Harry Bryant's been riding, all between 5'6" and 6'0".
We've decided to combine the carbon vacuum bag with Mitchell's V2 stringers. They're in production at the moment and we'll be dropping those in the next week or two.
We've also got collaborations coming up with Peter McCabe, and we've even got George Greenough involved - building some of his flex Spoons. We'll have more to say on that soon.
It's all about working with dedicated, lifelong shapers and building cool boards with them.
Comments
They look pretty sweet in real life and guys love them.
That Outer Island looks insane.
I bought a Mayhem Rad Ripper at the start of last summer with the Black Sheep construction. It's an epic design, carbon fiber deck with 30-degree layup that replicates the flex of a normal PU board. Stringer-less and super light EPS blank, I've pummeled the thing this year and the deck has not one single compression. The bottom is as white as the day I picked it up. Highly recommend, especially in the grey so it's not as hot as the black version. I'm sure these will be similarly impressive
Great to see dark arts/carbon starting to become more common here in Aus. I'd love to try one.
I just ordered a new board in exo-flex, the campbell designed tech.
While i usually hate epoxy due to the chatter, apparently the exoflex doesn't have that issue and surfs really well.
Its a shame Varial never made it here (its defunct now anyway), but feels like there's a bit of a gap in the market for alternative tech like DA or Exo, it'll be interesting to see where things are at in 5-10 years.
Dave Smith from WA who makes Katana Surfboards has been doing something similar for years and they go unbelievably good and last for years
Mirror black is sexy. Carbon is stiff, light, fast, till it snaps under extreme load used in racing catamarans. eg. Avoid using in big Cloudbreak, Pipeline, Jaws, etc, unless sponsored... so thats the majority of customers. Toledo is making carbon quads look so good.
I was told epoxy resin is less toxic than Vinylester ( Vinylester has a fantastic flex & memory and lasts a few human lifetimes eg. Vinylester was developed & used for sealed containers to store radioactive material deep underground in the US for the next 100 yrs ). Vinylester cured looks light brown, so gets a frown. https://trojanfibreglass.com.au/product-category/vinylester/
I lent my cool black Force9 surfboard to a mate, who went to the beach with a model. The board bubbled in the heat of the moment... board returned DOA, so Im biased, as the trade off was negative. If only I had a yatch, as she was hot as my board at the time...
I like wood veneer, epoxy vacuum bagged, old school vibe, flexy & still look and perform good after 20 years without a heel or knee dent... Cutloose SA, Sam Egan & McTavish NSW use to make them in the 1990's. Hope the Amos guys can offer that timber option in Oz.
https://www.theinertia.com/surf/the-state-of-eco-friendly-surfboards-wit...
I’ve got an original Aviso hollow carbon board in the shed. It’s a lost round nose fish. It was a revelation when i got it and i surfed it exclusively for almost three years. Not a single ding and barely a scratch anywhere after three years. It then sat in storage for 3 years and when i pulled it out i buckled it first surf in 1 foot beach break when the nose it the sand. I figured the storage did not agree with it. Got it fixed by a canoe place that did carbon work but it was never the same.
Classic story lost !
Speed v's US sponsors calls the WSL scores
The science of chemical reactions is complex...
"Cross-linking affects how epoxy resins change when they're heated, with more cross-links resulting in a higher glass transition temperature. This means the epoxy takes more heat to become soft and bendy. More cross-linking also influences the epoxy's strength, chemical resistance, and ability to handle heat. However, it's important to find the right balance of cross-linking for your project, as too much can make the epoxy brittle and less flexible. "
https://www.ksresin.com/blogs/information/why-does-epoxy-resin-soften-in....
Shit gets really hot, really hot in the cup.
Fission glassing !
Cousin owned a carbon board when we were young. Pulled into a massive Burleigh Cove pit, board snapped during the wipeout, exploded into a razor-sharp knife. Terrifying.
yep carbon fails catastrophically. And even less biodegradable / recyclable than PU. But its taken everything from planes to bicycles to another level, so likely will do the same with surfboards once we figure it out...
Dick Van Straalen's full carbon/eps boards glassed by Peter Mo are epic. I have a Aviso/Lost 7'1" full hollow carbon with factory white paint job that's about 20 years old. It's not one that is on the Aviso website. Not a single heel dent in the deck. Crazy feel under foot to surf. Tap on the board and it resonates like a djembe drum.
Great chat. Amos touched on it in the interview but if you look around the last year or two there's been some good experimentation happening. Full wrap with a stringer is too stiff (though great for total grovellers where lightness matters and flex doesn't) but controlling the stiffness/flex is key in high performance boards.
Removing the stringer is obvious, as is a half-wrap. Curiously, JS wraps the bottom half in his HYFI boards where most people, Lucid included, wrap the top half.
So which surface is better for flex - top or bottom? The jury is out on that one.
I reckon HaydenShapes deserves a bit of kudos for his faith in carbon flex/strength.
funny you mention the j.s hyfi as i was in a shop yesterday and i was comparing the El baron in hifi and the same board in pu and the pu one you could feel the fairly deep double concave before the fins but in the carbon bottom hyfi it felt flat......so the question is do they make it easier to glass with carbon by making the board flatter
Check the Free Flight ten channel or the board below by Greg Webber to answer that.
Truth is, with vacuum bagging they can glass almost surface. Concaves would be a breeze.
Good grief that looks uncomfortable! The old "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"....
Played with this stuff for skimboards. Made a a dual solid k12 carbon stringer(NASA GRADE long story),multi layer h80/h200 divincell wrap in multi layer 5 oz carbon regular weave "not bi lateral". Sadly it still snap on the outer edge of the stringer.
The tech noted above with the weak(if it is) S cloth middle layer confuses me. I think the least strength would be the most prone point to break in which i noted in past boards. To be noted was the type of epoxy also very interested in the read but nothing surface. Honestly I still think Kevlar seems to be the best tho the balance as noted above with carbon is the same. Vacuum bag has its fault cause that same board above noted was vacuum as well(9"). Between the peel ply and absorbing material things can easily get waked.
Talk about sun and heat OMD. leave a board in the sun in Laguna,CA mid summer day and you could end up with a balloon.
Just input,
So true 57 . My old mentor is an engineer who worked on and off with aerospace companies back in the 90's . He would bring back supplies of carbon 50/50 , bi-axial , carbon/kevlar , you name it . He would lay up all manner of 'experiments' and some were too stiff , some too flexy , some just snapped , some blew up and warped . Fun times .
My biggest issue is the use of steam blown poly-styrene as the core foam . That shit should be outlawed . Once the laminate is compromised , it starts to suck up water .
sorry for the late response I was out on vacation in the mountains. I hear you on the blow foam, made no sense to me either tho i did see some sandwich stuff using it with divinycell. I personally like Divinycell for its closed cell approach. Seem like the ticket for me. I hit up Chevron(gas company) and Devcon(glue) and they handed out a bunch of free samples to make a board. Back in the days when times were cheap hahah.
Who has an epoxy and a carbon board and wants to explain the difference.
I've just bought my first carbon board so I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer but at the moment it feels more EPS/Epoxy than EPS/Epoxy. Lighter, faster, stronger. That said, I think I'd just prefer an epoxy board but it's impossible to say without trying the same board in both.
I have one board carbon .
eps boards also
Some pu' as well.
I'm selective to which board I surf and when .
All boards are different shapes. So
Unless they are machined and close to the same board then all boards will ride / feel different.
I like p'u boards for more heavy offshore winds choppy surf.
Eps if it's small . Or little to no wind.
Carbon is my fun board.
So I really vaguely sort of answered the question ......
I tend the same. 6oz pu for step up, epoxy for clean, smaller conditions. I haven't tested out the carbon in choppy conditions because I have good wind protection options around me and just flag it these days if it's straight onshore. But having been bucked off hundreds of times by chop on my epoxy board doesn't fill me with confidence that carbon would be different.
Epoxy is just the resin.
You mean the difference between carbon fibre cloth and fibreglass as the lamination.
Anything EPS is a big no thank you from me. Maybe a goer if you only surf smaller sand bottom spots and don't get dings.
IB , couldn't agree more . Polyurethane blank with modern epoxy resin is a different story . You can 'weight up' for heavier waves/or windy choppy , or 'weight down' with a low weight polyurethane blank . Surfblanks have 8 different foam densities .
They have different customisable stringers all with different characteristics .
The main advantage of PU over EPS is it won't suck water as does EPS .
I can feel the EPS army hot on my heels . Sure a 2.2 kg new shooter feels amazing when new . But be honest , how long does it last . Sure , a multi layered , vac bagged composite board with 'bullet proof' layup is strong , but once that lam is cracked , you better get it repaired asap .
All my boards are EPS. What you need to do is to use a slightly lighter foam and then a really strong glass job. Double six bottom and top, extra glass around the rails, tail and nose. The boards end up weighing about the same as a PU-PE, ie about 3.3kg with fins, but they are really hard to ding. As you know IB I surf reasonably powerful waves round a lot of rocks. I get very few dings. When you do get a ding you need to exit the water immediately and get some polythene tape over it till you can get it fixed. PU blanks are about $250 over here unless you're importing them directly. Polystyrene is about $45 for a board which more than compensates for the cost of the epoxy and extra glass.
Same here I.B.
https://appletreesurfboards.com/waterproof-foam/ - These Guys have the EPS
Not a Great Range of Boards but are a Good Price.
There's some great info on that page, including the answer to a question that I've been unable to get explained for years.
To wit, if EPS foam blanks 'suck' water then why is EPS foam used to make coolites and old school eskies, which get wet but don't suck up water?
Seems to be all about pressure differences created when EPS is sealed with glass and resin. If a sealed EPS blank gets a ding, the pressure difference from outside to inside sucks water into the board which lodges between the foam beads that comprise the EPS structure.
A coolite can be surfed for years but suck up no water because there's no pressure difference to suck water into the blank.
Can anyone who knows confirm if that is correct or not..?
The following is from Udo's link:
EPS foam is...made of little beads and balls, like the foam that your new TV is packed in. The individual beads are waterproof themselves, but there’s voids in between the beads. Even if they’re fused completely together, there are always voids. And that’s an open cell structure in the entire board. Now here’s the problem.
EPS foam is not waterproof
The board is fine when it’s closed and it’s new and whole. But as soon as you put it in the sun or somewhere warm, air expands. So there is a pressure build up inside the board. This is still not a problem, as long as this pressure is sort of low.
What happens when you have a small ding
But the problem happens when you have a small crack or a small ding in your board. Now the pressure can actually escape from the board, so the board will start to blow out air softly. If you then grab your board and run into the water, the water is always colder so the board cools down and the air compresses again. But while compressing it starts to suck back in through the hole that you have. But now the board is in the water so instead of sucking in the air, it starts to suck in water. This is what we call water logging.
50K foam is not easy to shape, all commercially available shaping machines will have great trouble shaping it and hand shaping is not possible. At Appletree Surfboards we use our own shaping machines that we built and control ourselves. This way we can not only shape the foam, but we can also create channels and extreme contours, straight from the machine.
Coincidentally confirmed by Tom Wegener in an article I read over night:
"The big anomaly with EPS is when it is not sealed, like the Coolite boards, it does not absorb water. However when it is sealed it does absorb water. In Australia this was seen with the unsealed coolite boards vs the lifesaver paddle boards, which were glassed and absorbed water quickly when dinged."
https://tomwegener.substack.com/p/what-is-in-a-surfboard
OK - so what wax do you use?
Even on the coolest of sunny days a carbon board will soak heat. How does this heat affect the wax?
Regular wax, just have a towel or board bag handy.
Do not repeat don't leave carbon boards in cars parked out in the sun . ...
It's quite confusing he uses standard weave cloth under the carbon. Well known in the boat building industry that carbon has poor impact properties. It's used for stiffness and nothing else, and always covered with glass, kevlar or even basalt to protect the integrity of the carbon layer. They look cool tho!
I'm assuming it's because carbon is almost being used as a proxy for stringers. Shapers are trying to create flex - i.e by taking away the stringer - but retain the strength that a stringer might otherwise provide.
It's a different use than in boats.
Sure, I get that there are many excellent reasons for incorporating carbon layup in surfboards. What I found interesting was where he stated the carbon shell is way more resistant in general. When in fact carbon fibres are prone to impact damage more so than many other fibres. Another very good reason for laying down a glass layer over the carbon is it helps protect the underlying carbon fibres from sand through which can really compromise the layup. Anyway I'm sure he knows all this and has his reasons. There's no reason why the composite technology shouldn't bleed down into surfboard manufacturing, as long as they respect the properties of the materials.
Spidermonkey - you are right.. we have done a lot of testing in breakage and impact strength in all composites and in 1 layer carbon +1 layer of glass the impact strength/ breakage strength is only slightly higher than normal fiberglass (other composites handle impact better). and yes it does make it stiffer.. he is using mid weight eps so helps with flex. Vac bagging helps as its a higher fibre to resin ratio. And way less sand throughs as the shell is tighter around the core and less lap edges to sand down.
But as he said all carbon boards need to be handled with kit gloves- surf it then, back in a bag away and any dings out of the water and fixed asap
Great to know the next generation are trying to make the ultimate wave tools.
&list=RDGYREvn8PVh0&start_radio=1I will never surf like Toledo on carbon blades.
My brown vinyl ester surfboard, facing fins up at Lennox, was runover by a an HR Holden wagon and bounced back with a 1cm crease. Filled the crease with qcell and the board handled many more rocky point waves. That VE board will probably outlive most people on the planet... "get up & ride on..."
What's interesting is how much stronger eps foam is than p/ u.
Sean of Sos boards in maui, demonstrated this right in front of me a few years ago
Before living in Maui he lived in Florida and built stringerless eps kite surfboards. .
I always visit the cannery when I'm haiku
Always entertaining.
Surprised Josh Dowling hasn't been mentioned re eps/epoxy. He put a "breather" valve into his boards. I still have a 6'2" step-up that he made me in 2013. Surfed it heaps until about 5 yrs back. No deck impression, no dings. Most of it's hammerings were in heaving beachies - the purpose intended
63 years old now and don't ride it because I can't make the entries. Sigh
Though epoxy resins are used, the article is concerned with carbon laminate, which I don't think Josh ever used.
We've done a few articles with Josh over the years. Check out:
Flying Too Close To The Sun: The Ascent
Flying Too Close To The Sun: The Descent
The Art Of The Spray: Josh Dowling
I know it's about carbo, but the other stuff came up in the comments so ....
I could be wrong, but almost certain JD used eps with epoxy. And I did read those articles which were great and fitting testament to a very gifted person. Will get around to a reread, so thanks for the links
Some Good Info Here
https://forum.realsurf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=601124&hilit=speedneedl...
Thanks. I posted in there. Different moniker
I don't know Josh's boards , but he may have been shaping extruded polystyrene , not expanded polystyrene . I used to buy blanks from Shane Stedman at Brooky . These were extruded polystyrene which is another animal again . Great compressive strength . It originated in the USA being used under concrete slabs .
Problem was the air would expand - thus the 'vent' . CI was doing them and had tiny holes in the deck lam to express the air . This foam does not suck water , but it does snap . That I can attest to .
the original firewires had a vent i think........
What I just don't understand about wrapping with Carbon is that they all commonly use 6oz (200GSM) Carbon cloth! 6oz Carbon cloth is NOT lighter. It's exactly the SAME weight as 6oz E glass, or 6 oz S glass, but bulkier. If it its so strong and stiff, why not take advantage of its properties and use 2oz or 3oz, or even 4oz carbon cloth?
Yes, I get that the EPS core is a lot lighter, so the only weight saving is actually there. Glass a EPS blank with 6oz Glass or 6oz carbon and it is still the same weight @ 6oz!
I have searched for lighter carbon cloth and found it quite difficult to find. :-(
Now I recon that if you want a really strong and lightweight board, wrap it with a 2-3oz layer of Kevlar under a similar weight Glass cloth layer for sanding. :-) Kevlar fibres are almost impossible to break, but also almost impossible to sand which is why a vacuum bag process would be best with a thin sand-able glass overlay.
Oh, but then it is not white! Well boo-hoo! Who dictates that surfboards must be shiny clear white? Any colour surfs the same (given the same flex).
How do / Should these Carbon Decks Standup to Denting ?