Anzac spirit dead ?

inzider's picture
inzider started the topic in Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:02am

A kiwi can live in Australia on a special category visa with literally less rights than a refugee, An Australian can rock into NZ and have access to healthcare, education, welfare and after 12 months of residency can vote. I feel the Anzac spirit is dead at a federal level.
Why has this happened
I have my own ideas on how this evolved, any swillnutters care to share their opinion.

inzider's picture
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inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:03am

Go the tigers
Only since dusty is half kiwi

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:10am

Can't kiwis access medical treatment in OZ ?

So what happens if they're in a car crash when they're over here ?

Surely it's all free ?

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:26am

Yeah we can in event of accident I think
But not sure about Medicare.
It is a lot different I think if you have been there pre a certain date

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:32am

Had no idea about the disparity till I checked a few links. This article has a timeline of how the visa has changed over the years:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/explainer/targeted-erosion-new-zealanders-rights-australia

However, it doesn't say why it's changed. The big one, the changes made in 2001 coincide with children overboard and Little Winston's people smuggling campaign so maybe it's connected with that? Boat people coming into Oz via NZ, maybe?

Whatever, the inquity is glaring.

What's your take Inzider?

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:36am

Kiwis are still allowed to be used as cannon fodder alongside Aussies in ridiculous wars though ?

What more do you want ?

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:46am

Yeah Stu I think you are on the money. Not so much boat people though. Very small percentage of numbers.
I have been working lately in Queenstown NZ(not tasie)where there are literally hundreds of young UK people trying to get sponsored so they can get NZ residency and get in OZ the back door. The construction site I was on had at least 5 poms doing just that
With Queenstown facing a severe skills shortage it is a place where heaps of foreigners end up after having run out of visa in OZ. They are onto the back door scam. I can't blame them but I reckon it's fucked coz it effects me and my family.
The NZ govt is asleep at the wheel on this Shit.

inzider's picture
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inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:49am

You got that right blowin
Except lately it's just been our SAS sneaking about with your elite.
Our military effort flies under the radar thank fuck

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:54am

Sorry , NZ , but I don't believe your claim about the hundreds of U.K. people in Queenstown.

Surely 99.99999 percent of the UK is already in Perth ? I doubt there'd be hundreds left anywhere outside of WA .

Can't kiwis use the same visa path as any other nationality to get into Oz ?

Think how close we were to being a single nation !

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 9:08am

It's out of control isn't it blowin
There are heaps of pom surfers where I live in NZ and I can't say I am a fan of their manners.
Yeah we can eventually apply for citizen ship after living there for x amount of years and earn more than 50k a year for x amount of years.
But this is what fucks me off.
I've got an Ozzie missus, with one born in Melbs and another at the beach in nz. We will be returning to OZ sooner or later and my NZ born kid is worse off than a refugee if he ever wants to get an education
And with our close historical ties I think it's fucked it's come to this.
I can trace my bloodline ties in OZ to the 1800's.

chook's picture
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chook commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 9:26am

it's pretty simple. ANZAC includes NZ. kiwis and aussies are brothers and sisters. we are one.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 9:36am

Maybe it has something to do with lots of Kiwis wanting to come to Australia as better pay rates etc.

While you would imagine the number of Aussies wanting to go to NZ is fairly low as wages not great but according to my Kiwi brother inlay and sister, housing and living cost are still quite high.

So there could be a problem with NZ losing skilled workers coming to Aussie.

So NZ would be happy to attract Aussies to NZ, but no offence Australia doesn't really need more Kiwis, i don't mean that in a negative way, but just that we don't need to encourage them to come here, but for NZ there could be advantages to encourage Aussies to go there. (as mentioned in particular skilled workers)

So i guess policy could reflect this instead of being a reciprocal type thing.

Ada gula, ada semut!

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 9:38am

Indo
You would probably be surprised how many Ozzie's are in nz
Still think it is the back door issue though driving the changes
Australia has a skills shortage too but big corps want to import cheap labour under the guise of skilled
And I agree with chook

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 10:10am

Additional to Stu's comment and link my memory tells me Howard wanted to crack down on the number Kiwi's coming over here and getting welfare payments. I think at the time the NZ economy was poor and Australia's was good (Hawke/Keating reforms & mining boom #1). Reckon a certain conservative media group (ok Murdoch) was running a line that great numbers of Kiwis were rocking up here and getting the dole and Howard was never one for letting a cheap political opportunity go.

Couple other points (1.) I love NZ and would happily live there. Been there many many times and always come back here wondering why I didn't stay. (2.) inzider; your new photo; with teeth like that are you sure you aren't British? ;)

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 10:16am

Hhhhmmm maybe there is some link but Im not totally convinced on the backdoor thing if talking about refugees.

Refugees want to come to Australia because its a safe developed country with all the perks of a good social security system, medical system, education system, good employment good wages, high quality of living and much opportunity.

Doesn't New Zealand also have all these things?
(okay wages are a little lower but still very good on a world scale)

I don't see the point of a refugee bypassing NZ to get to Australia after they had already been settled there.

Our fear or our governments fear about resettling those in offshore detention in NZ when they offered to take some was more about politics and more about the effect that if we said yes, it would signal to others that if they arrive by boat and get incepted and put in detention they would get to NZ a developed country, when the reality is its more likely it would be a one off deal, but still it could easily have triggered an influx of boats and could have meant being back at square one with putting a similar amount of people in detention as we just offloaded to NZ

And yeah i guess there was probably some fear that some would eventually end up in Australia and the opposing government would use it against the party who allowed the NZ transfer, because we have said all along they wont end up in Australia.

I dont know about how refugee plane arrivals work in NZ but in Australia refugees who arrive by plane can only get a temporary protection visa which doesn't entitle them to permanent residency or to become Australian.

I don't know how NZ deals with plane arrivals but maybe there could be a fear that they could land in NZ tick all the boxes in NZ then move on to Australia and be entitled to permeant residency and citizenship..

But again I'm not sure if it would be a well founded fear seeing you would expect the refugees would have what they want or need in NZ.

But who knows?

Ada gula, ada semut!

I focus's picture
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I focus commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 11:10am

Wasn't there a beat up about the welfare disparity being paid i.e. $100 mil paid to kiwis living in Bondi to sell drugs and $100 being paid to some Aussie lost in Queenstown?

Have met a few people who have migrated through the NZ back door and ended up in WA I think that door is being squeezed shut as well.

To be honest I think the Kiwis bring more to Oz than they take and lets face it they have better genes and aren't as hung up and those Tasmanians and we let them in why not Kiwis....

inzider's picture
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inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 3:48pm

Indo
The only reason boat people don't target NZ is the stretch of water called the Tasman. Kinda hard to cross in a Shit boat

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 4:31pm

Yep Inzider 100% agree.

It's just like how Canada doesn't have the same issues that the USA has with it's southern neighbours.

It's the reason Canada and New Zealand can have very different policy on these kind of issues than Australia and USA.

Ada gula, ada semut!

inzider's picture
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inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 5:10pm

On the subject of refugees
Talked to an Iranian refugee I knew from Nauru today.
He is now in America
The deal is for real

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 5:37pm

That's good news hopefully in time we can close the detention centres and move on, now we have learnt our lesson.

Ada gula, ada semut!

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 6:04pm

hello every body,
i heard that, 30% of bloody kiwi's, live here in Australia ?, ( for God's sake don't quote me on that ). workin around like i do, i have come across,.... more than one kiwi, some of the white one's, try & tell me that, us Australian's, don't know how good that we have it, well i know more than one Maori/ kiwi, & not one of them have dribbled that crap to me. it sound's like abit of a switharoo, to me, ( again don't quote me on that ). i reckon us Australian's should head to NZ for a holiday, instead of stinkin bali.

hynz

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 6:17pm

as soon as some idiot, tries ta say to me, that there is a skill shortage in Australia, i know instantly, that they are, uneducated, out of touch, & a complete fuckin liar. take that back... or simple go back to New Zealand & let my Maori mates deal with ya.

hynz

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 7:37pm

I would guess that the disparity in access to education/welfare was, at the time, a mutually agreeable between AUS and NZ governments.

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:05pm

na, i don't think so ! it's more like kiwi's lookin for a easier, way of life. well guess what ? it has all switched around............. ya may find afew Aussie's tellin ya how it actually is... like now, & for real..... switcharoo.... ya should of stayed at home ... & done the right thing to begin with...... like years ago... it's alittle late now eh ....champ. alot of kiwis are scared to go back home, cause of fines & fuck ups that they have created..... yeah, those dramas are still waitin for ya back home, in lovely NZ. ya cannot even hide in our north/west anymore ....eh champ! oh shit yeah. NZ crank's & the waves are great.... eh champ.

hynz

inzider's picture
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inzider commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 8:59pm

No waves over here at all
Don't know what your talking about
Pretty sure we don't have any ocean.

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Saturday, 30 Sep 2017 at 9:27pm

just as i suspected.... another baker.............. how are the sheep goin, shall we round them up..... ya got ya gum boot's on there champ, grab a shovel, let us watch ya dig....

hynz

sharkman's picture
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sharkman commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 8:55am

and what did we learn?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 9:35am

What surprises me about New Zealand, from what i hear from my sister and brother inlay is that property prices are crazy and still rising. (maybe not all areas?)

They lived here in Oz moved back a few years ago for the lifestyle and bought a place, but they just found the cost of living to high compared to what they were earning so moved back to Oz, so they sold their place for a lot more than they paid last year, but apparently since then things have risen even higher.

So whats driving these property price increases?

Do they allow negative gearing? or foreigners to buy?

Ada gula, ada semut!

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 3:04pm

Speculative bubble underpinned by large scale immigration and foreign buyers.

Same as here.

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 4:14pm

What is driving NZs economy is immigration
Auckland is in crisis
Your average public servant like teachers police etc are leaving in droves to the rejoins where house prices are not million plus
We have the fastest growing gap between the haves and the have-nots in the OECD. Real wage growth has only occurred for the wealthy who then buy more houses further driving prices. It's fucked
NZ is becoming a Bolt hole for rich people
Perspective =I was making 25 an hour ago n Melbourne 15 years ago
I struggle to make 20 in NZ today. There is a very big number of working poor in NZ. The stats are skewed hard by the govt. The cost of living is seriously getting mental. Paid $2.25 for a litre of premium yesterday

simba's picture
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simba commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 5:08pm

And i thought Aus was becoming an expensive place to live....hate politicians.......cuntz

simba

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 5:32pm

It's called globalisation .

This situation is not an unintended consequence.

chook's picture
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chook commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 7:34pm

it might be a consequence of neoliberliasm, not globalsisation.
at least that's what the hundred odd essays i'm marking at the moment claim -- neoliberalism is a better term to describe what is often referred to as globalisation.

anyway, i better get back to it...hope the rest of you are enjoying this supposedly glorious long weekend.

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 6:15pm

The power has been handed to (by govt the world over) core nation state mega corps to dominate the periphery and semi periphery nations. The IMF and the World Bank complicite in the proceedings. The world is poked
Agenda 21 anyone
How about some disaster capitalism?
The info is out there but you will be labelled a conspiracist unless you believe Fox News, CNN the list of all you know whos
Any way blinkers on I've got a mortgage to pay

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Sunday, 1 Oct 2017 at 6:37pm

Yep you gotta link globalisation with neoliberalism in this context.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 10:44am

Did someone mention globalisation and neoliberalism?

http://www.theage.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/lure-of-globalisa...

Tribes? the plonkers at One Nation are now polling 18% of the vote in Queensland thanks to the bleeding of votes from the two majors.

ps the dawn patrol was tasty today

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 11:45am

And it won't stop there if they don't get a clue soon.

More Sally McManus , less Bill Shorten for Labor.

LNP can just fuck right off.

Sweet rain here today for the first time in months. Surf was glassy , but I'll let the holiday punters have it.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 2:21pm

Reckon One Nation's base is and will be for the foreseeable future the party of the plonkers from FNQ.

They failed dismally in the recent WA election where their preferences flowed 60/40 to the Liberals and Labor.

This high court citizenship testing for Malcolm Roberts. By all accounts he's gone and the next number down for One Nation now has bankruptcy issues disqualifying him from parliament!

If anyone cares to read their website they will see its been clagged together by a preschooler with a talent for cut and paste and some broken crayons.

I wish One Nation was a credible 3rd force with properly considered policies but they aren't.

Speaking about FNQ & poor thinking .... 4 Corners tonight exposes Adani to be the environmental vandals they are in India.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 3:18pm

Guy said -" I wish One Nation was a credible 3rd force with properly considered policies but they aren't."

So do I .

It's like choosing between shit , piss or vomit for dinner.

Quite often I'll be talking to someone and we'll be stunned at how the USA , a country of 320,000,000,000 people was reduced to the choice between Trump and Clinton as their leader. Neither of whom you'd consider trusting with the takings from a scout group car wash , let alone to run the country.

But then you realise that Australia has put itself into this position where our choices are not too dissimilar.

How did this happen ?

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 3:26pm

if that red head/ air head, gets into, even state power, i am going to NZ, & never comin back. i reckon we could convince that poor excuse for a polly, to jumb in that dodgy little airplane of, ( HERS ) & fly it ta bali..... tell that moron to fly into the clouds.... no that's not volcanic dust love keep flyin....

hynz

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 3:39pm

checkmetypo..... jumb.... classic stuff. i was mean't ta say jump.... but" jumb", maybe, word of the month..... watch it catch on........... poetry in motion.......

hynz

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 3:47pm

If people are getting upset about the energy companies exporting our LNG and forcing us to buy it back at world's highest prices , wait till we are facing the similar situation only it's food being exported to the world whilst Australians are paying through the nose at the checkout .....if we are lucky.

China's stake in Australian an agricultural land has increased 1000 percent in a single year. Worse than multinational companies that are about cash , they are state owned and are all about furthering Chinese interests before Australia's interest , regardless of profit margins.

Good luck getting your Minister - on - the - take du jour to negotiate with them once the deals are done and Australian's are looking at food shortages.

And that 1000 percent increase ?

That's with the foreign ownership programme whereby registration is based on the honesty system. Fines for non compliance to a whopping $9000 . You just know that the Chinese state would be shitting themselves over a $9000 fine....tax deductible of course.

lukas's picture
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lukas commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 4:31pm

so true, every time we hear a polly, talking about handing stuff over to the private sector, we all know that they are being paid off, & being bloody lazy. simply palming off, high quality resources, land, food etc, to one of there " pretend mate's". just alittle hand shake & a re feathered nest, for acouple of scammer's. the export market sux shit, when was the last time ya ate some abalone, or a crayfish ? yep, prices, will continue to go up, due to out of touch pollys ,& mismanagement .

hynz

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Monday, 2 Oct 2017 at 6:54pm

NZ produces a Shit ton of food and us locals pay global prices
You would be horrified at the price of fruit and veg let alone fish and red meat
But hey for the price of a loaf of bread you can get 6 litres of coke instead
10 times the amount of kiwis are are asking for help to feed their families than ten years ago
Yet the pollies tell us of our great economy
So fucked

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 9:42am

Nationalism & Patriotism are basically dead in general across all of oz and the ANZAC spirit died with it.
A combination of globalization, piss weak governance and a failure from our leadership at addressing divisions that exist in our country and making hard decisions killed it off. If they lead by example and give us a something we can be proud of maybe it'll return.

I'm clueless as to why NZ isn't celebrated as family, I get the impression that NZ is doing all the heavy lifting in the relationship.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 10:40am

The attempt to kill nationalism and any feeling of identity associated with being an Australian was a premeditated attack on the solidarity of our society.

Divide and conquer the people and they're easier to manipulate.

It's a strategy in action throughout most Western nations.

That's why China et al are powering - a sense of national unity.

The completely farcical straw man argument that nationalism is a direct path to the utter abhorrence of fascism as represented by nazi Germany is swallowed by the gullible , unfortunately.

Despite the glaring success of every other nation to not succumb to Nazi style politics , this tactic is still peddled by those that would divide us.

No one mentions the 500 odd indigenous nations when discussing the disgusting bigotry of nationhood . Funny that.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 10:48am

"The attempt to kill nationalism and any feeling of identity associated with being an Australian was a premeditated attack on the solidarity of our society."

No it wasn't, it was the result of globalisation and adopting an outward looking worldview.

Be careful invoking China as a model to aspire to, unless oppression, state control, and forced civil servitude is also on your agenda.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 11:06am

It's a slippery slope isn't it. When people hark back to the good ol' days of grand nationalism 50,80,100 years back there was obviously the glare of propaganda floating through the whole mess. China uses the same tool today and censorship is obviously the only thing that allows it to work in the digital age.

I'd like to think we have a better eye for it these days, but hey I could be wrong. I'm spoonfed the same drivel as everyone else at the end of the day.

Rather than political "leaders" we seem to be more likely to receive "managers" these days. And the quality of those is obviosuly questionable also. A whole parliament full of slippery fish sharing the same spine amongst themselves.

I can't imagine today's youth getting behind this nation/government when its thrown them off the proverbial cliff.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 11:11am

And you think globalism wasn't premeditated ?

It's possible to have an outward looking worldview , even overt multiculturalism without attacking the sense of identity associated with the defined community that the concept of a nation promotes.

Celebrate our commonality rather than our divergence.

Take pride in the collective achievements of our nation rather than despising it for its shortcomings.

One doesn't have to be blind to the positives or negatives of Australia or its history, in fact it's beneficial to acknowledge and learn from every situation.

It's evenhandedness that's required.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 11:11am

@blowin - agree completely on the "whitenoise" strategy of dumbing us all down. 3 hours of reality tv every goddam fucking night and the saddest bit is people are actually watching it. Rather than "divide & conquer" I'd go as far as "distract & conquer". It's so effective its embarrassing.

Blowin's picture
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Blowin commented Tuesday, 3 Oct 2017 at 11:15am

China is in no way a political system to emulate . But I think the collective focus of China is an inarguably benefit to its society.

And do you think that it's nationalism that is responsible for oppression , state control and civil servitude ?

I'd contend that just as Australia moves from nationalism we are edging closer to all of those things.

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