Submitted by Blowin on Fri, 06/21/2019 - 08:01
Talking points worthy of further discussion without devolving into insult.
Sounds like nothing more than wilful ignorance Dave.
It was Huxley who said that facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
Or from another wise source, the human mind in its desire to know, understand and control mistakes it's opinions and viewpoints for the truth ... dogmas, religious, political, scientific arise out of the erroneous belief that thought can encapsulate reality or the truth. People love their dogmas because they give them a sense of security and a false sense of, I know.
If you think you are a human having a spiritual experience you will see life through a particular lens and if you think you are a spirit having a human experience you will do through another lens. Both are valid, but it is when you go to the place beyond where thought arises, well that's what cannot be explained only experienced and questions and confusions are replaced by knowing.
"Dave, what I certainly don't get confused with are the realities of the world as shown by evidence and logic.
When you, and many others talk about "choosing their own realities", this tends to mean having belief systems which are do not stand up to scrutiny and critical thought.
It's clear that many people are very confused with choosing their own truth, the only question in my mind is a chicken or the egg question - do confused people choose this path of thinking and belief or does this way of thinking embed confusion.
In any case, I don't see it as being beneficial for individuals or larger communities."
I actually agree with this, but it goes both ways.
Recent discussions/topics are great examples, Black emu book for example, doesn't hold up to scrutiny, goes against all other written history and historians views, but still many want to believe it for social and political reasons.
Or take end of the world dooms day cult Extinction Rebellion, according to them the end of the world is near.
Or those against Adani who think Adani is going to destroy the reef etc
Or that Scommo is responsible for fires or that Australia alone can magically change the effects of Climate change.
The list goes on and on yes everyone can find issues in to favour their own interest.
You forgot to add those that believe that oz coal is so clean that it is of great benefit to developing nations.
That extractive mining companies are our benevolent beneficiaries. And never to be questioned.
How good is land clearing?!
And that Scummo could have met with 22 fire chiefs who would have liked to warn him of the catastrophic fire danger but instead thought it was better to meet with 21 religious leaders to discuss religious freedom. I guess when your answer to the fire is thoughts and prayers then it was the right decision.
You should get multiple accounts ID.
I’m not sure you could post more tripe but you could give it a crack.......
Haha SD....Triple tripe! Yea naa.
"It doesn’t take the gift of prophecy to know that future historians will see the Abbott/Turnbull/Morrison era as the worst period of governance in Australia’s history, when totalitarian instincts were unleashed. The targeting of journalists is just the beginning of a much greater disaster."
Agree. But I think that Abbott , Turnbull , Morrison are symptomatic of the times , not initiators. This is a global phenomenon that I believe is a direct result of cultural transference with China.
Through our interactions over the past couple of decades , our cultures have tainted each other’s world view. They have become more capitalist and we have become more dictatorial politically.
Of course , their effect on us is more profound due to the asymmetries of power involved. Every time our politicians visit China or interact with them , they are exposed to the perspective of governmental domination of the people and they are appreciative of its effectiveness.
Even many free citizens of Australia approve of the Chinese ability to achieve national cohesion and goal orientation through their method of subjugating the population for ( alleged ) collective benefit.
The world is changing. Chinese influence is rising. It’s not all sweet and sour black bean.
speaking of "create your own reality" ...I'm enjoying following the comments in this little page of late
...all manner of self delusion going on...
and getting worse by the day
im sorry, some facts are reality
"The world is changing. Chinese influence is rising. It’s not all sweet and sour black bean."
Clearly, because sweet and sour beans is a Mexican dish.
A version of 'the story' much closer to the truth....
I would argue ...from my reality...
if this spygate thingy is half as big as some are saying - following from behind a litany of democrat disasters - the democrat party is officially cooked
non redeemable cooked!
So you don't believe Abc Fact check?
I don't think anyone with any knowledge of coal deny the quality difference between what we export and what other countries export.
And if you cant be bothered clicking the link.
Mr Turnbull claimed that Australia's coal, "by and large", was cleaner than the coal in many other countries.
His claim was made in the context of what would happen to global emissions if Australia stopped exporting coal.
Experts told Fact Check that Australia's coal is on average high quality as a result of its low moisture and ash content, and high carbon content, compared with other countries, particularly Indonesia, the largest coal exporter in the world.
As a consequence, less Australian coal is needed to generate the same amount of energy, leading to lower carbon emissions by weight compared with coal from other countries.
Mr Turnbull's claim checks out."
If you read the article it does go into detail about coal quality of the G basin that although not as high quality as some areas of OZ (which are right up there running for best quality anywhere) it is still a decent amount higher than any other likely market India would instead source coal from.
BTW. Scoomo didn't need to met any fire crew, he already knew everything they had to say. (i do think its a fair call, for criticism that budgets and equipment that should be needed to tackle fires are not in place though)
Anyway related to the topic another good recent read.
"In Australia, renewable energy is growing at a per capita rate ten times faster than the world average. Between 2018 and 2020, Australia will install more than 16 gigawatts of wind and solar, an average rate of 220 watts per person per year.
This is nearly three times faster than the next fastest country, Germany. Australia is demonstrating to the world how rapidly an industrialised country with a fossil-fuel-dominated electricity system can transition towards low-carbon, renewable power generation."
(Yes 2019 rates are down from 2018 though see other link in article)
wow indo. your ego seems to have grown quite substantially since i last read any of these forums.
WORDY SAID IT, SO BAD LUCK!!
What do the links and information shared from them have to do with my ego?
Increased water restrictions, uncontrolled fires right across the country, record breaking heat, record breaking drought, and all I see on social media the past few weeks/months is more and more visuals of this.
More uproar, more built up anger.
Shit's getting real.. quick. And the goverment... crickets!!
So Scummo needs no warning from professionals in the field despite the fact that he cut funds and resources.
The fact is Scummo, McCormack and the rest of the liberal cunts don’t want to hear that they have been reckless in the face of science and facts because they want the corporate hand shake at the end.
FFS wake up mate.
Like i said: I think its a fair call on the criticism about being prepared for fires in regard to lack of equipment or cuts in budget.
Haters like you just want to hate though, always looking for reasons to hate and can never admit anything positive.
BTW. What happened to your argument on quality of coal?... so who's full of tripe?
New Italy fire is at emergency level again, wouldn't be surprised if that fire burns right through to the Clarence.
cue some dumb cunt who failed high school science: "oh fuck, you've swallowed the Kool-aid, Greta is a puppet, the greenies are to blame, Bolt told me"
I always hear people saying things like this....but seem to always ignore facts like the article i posted a few post above on Australia current rate of uptake of renewables.
So what would you like to see happen? remembering it has to be realistic in that it cant send our economy into recession.
What ideas and approach do you suggest?
I have an idea, i think the government should come to a compromise with mining in the galleon basin that could be win, win, win for all parties.
Basically allow a number new of mines but propose once any subsidies are paid back they should guarantee that any extra money raised by government in taxes etc from these new mines are put back directly into dealing with the climate change issue, including funding to prepare in some way to buffer the negative effects on communities in areas where coal fired power stations will close down.
This would mean, QLD voter are still happy as get more jobs and money flow through the area from coal mining and coal exports, and the southern states and Labor/Greens voters should be more happy as the issue of climate change will get extra funding and attention.
And companies like Adani and india will be happy as they will get the quality coal they need to keep emissions as low as possible while they tackle transition to renewables.
If labor are smart next election they will propose something like this.
Maybe it's not realistic to do though?
I'm not informed enough to put anything forward regarding what you've discussed above, that's for others more experienced in that area to tackle.
I am smarted up regarding the current state of the climate, ocean and atmospheric dynamics and what we're seeing now across the globe is what I learnt about at Uni, but it's happening much faster than I thought.
Some sort of carbon tax/pricing system/market to incentivise the big polluters to clean up their act or improve technologies would be a start, but that was scrapped back in 2014.. No excuses, the government has dropped the ball and is now being caught out flapping.
Make us less reliant on fossil fuels and leaders in renewables. Yes the grid can't cope etc, but if the government had foresight it could have started prepping for this a decade or more ago.
Look how much of a shambles NBN has been! The list goes on.
Davethereave this is a prime example of where choosing your own reality and ignoring facts for whatever reasons can be a very harmful thing to do, not just for yourself but for many others as well.
"For me it's not about who or what is wrong and right"
Mate, it really should be.
SD said .... "So Scummo needs no warning from professionals in the field despite the fact that he cut funds and resources ......"
SD, this ignoring of expert advice is government wide, across every portfolio. It used to be the public service (PS) was there to give fearless and independent advice to government, you may have missed the increased politicisation of the PS for the last 17 of 23 years but it has most certainly happened. You may have also missed Scooter's speech a few months back where he told the audience that the PS was there to solely implement government policy .... policy now often informed by discussions between government and lobbyists and without reference to the PS at all.
Many department heads have now been appointed by Ministers i.e. jobs for mates.
E.G. Agencies like the Fair Work Commission is stacked with business representatives so little wonder they decided to end week end penalty rates.
It has got so bad the independence of the heads of the RBA and Treasury is now openly questioned. The two most important and senior economic advisers of the country and their independence is now in question!!!!
Here's some irony for your aunty/indo, have you ever wondered why neo-liberals who spend their life praising small government and the market never leave the teat of a taxpayer funded job(s) e.g. Abbott, Hockey and that SA family of nation builders (the Downers).
@Craig I don't know a heap about carbon taxes, but what i have read it seems really mixed on if they achieve much, seems to vary a lot from country to country.
Im betting with our high wages and high business operating cost in Australia adding a carbon tax would just see our business become less competitive for anything we export, mining, industry, agriculture etc so yeah it would probably work because it would mean the loss of business so less business equals less emissions, but would probably be the nail in the coffin of any industry that manufactures anything for an export market. (as obviously the cost would be passed on to the buyer)
In Australia domestic market maybe it could work but would just add extra cost to cost of living as again obviously would just be passed onto the consumer.
In regard to fossil fuels like coal i think it would be pointless to add a carbon tax as the renewable snow ball is well and truly rolling, coal fired power stations will be gone once their life spans end, you would think as times goes on they will become more and more unviable, but worse thing that could happen is they were forced to shut down overnight before we had the energy to replace or more the ability to keep the grid reliable and consistent especially at night.
I could be wrong but i would have thought we are or would be trying to prop them up with subsidies while we transition to ensure some security and that we have that back up for stability and consistency of grid while we transition, so would seem pointless to tax them while also providing support. (but i could be totally wrong)
Only real area i think we could see government bring in incentives and schemes like we did with solar or water tanks is in private transport sector to encourage public to take up electric vehicles, but i can see why they aren't currently (or if they are nothing crazy) because that would put pressure on our energy grid and be putting pressure on it at the wrong time.
As everyone would be recharging their cars at night, problem is that's the opposite time to when we have lots of renewable energy, so it would screw up the balance even more.
I guess you could say, well go out and buy heaps of new batteries like SA just have, but you would assume it's private companies who would need to do this, and the problem that i can see (that im only assuming is real) is that you could spend all this money on something that in 5 years time is outdated and by that time something much better for a cheaper price. (that happens with most high tech products
The other problem for the government is we would lose heaps in tax from loss of fuel taxes, so would need to get extra $ from elsewhere.
Personally like i said elsewhere i think what will happen and most likely sooner than latter is as long as electricity passes your home and you can hook up you will pay a pretty decent amount of your bill in charges (like you do with water and sewerage)
So you will be paying to compensate the money/taxes the government is going to lose from fuel tax in your electricity bill and it wont even matter if you disconnect from the grid and buy batteries, you will still have to pay, if this doesn't happen as all the tech gets better many people will go off grid and there wont be enough money to maintain the grid, and we will always need a grid especially for inner city areas.
Here's a great clip from 2010 to remind everyone of Turnbull getting stuck in to Labor for abandoning an emissions trading scheme.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtq2fXAEUTA&feature=youtu.be
And a small quote from it -
"Our efforts to deal with climate change have been betrayed by a lack of leadership, a political cowardice, the likes of which I have never seen in my lifetime before."
He finishes with
"we cannot cost effectively achieve a substantial cut in emissions without putting a price on carbon.
Then a few years later as prime minister -
"In terms of carbon policy, I have never supported a carbon tax," Mr Turnbull said.
Cmon, AndyM, if you are gunna quote me, get it right please, you left out what I do is determine whether it works or doesn't work for me. This creates a totally different context to what you are implying I am implying. So we have come full circle once again, we all create our own meanings, narratives, understandings, biases and realities through our own filter. Some we share collectively, some we don't but the egoic mind believes it's viewpoint is the only correct viewpoint when in fact it is just a collection of thoughts based on limited data, hence it is limited.
Ive never liked Turnbull and don't know much about what he said or supported and don't really care to be honest
But it should be noted an emissions trading scheme and a carbon tax are two different things, so i guess to be fair he could have support one but not the other?
BTW. Dont forget Greens also voted against Rudd's carbon tax.
"For me it's not about who or what is wrong and right, but what works, especially what works for me being me."
Same thing Dave.
I mean, "Scummo, McCormack and the rest of the liberal cunts don’t want to hear that they have been reckless in the face of science and facts because they want the corporate hand shake at the end."
So if it works for them personally, that's all that matters, right Dave?
Water security is going to fuck us before climate change even gets a look in. And water security is going to fuck us because we keep importing people like they’re going out of fashion.
The East coast situation isn’t unprecedented by any stretch. A couple of drought years on top of a concerted refusal to backburn. ( Unreliable ) Records for the North Coast stretch back almost a century. Almost.
So we are looking at literally a couple of IOD years with a reluctance to backburn......
I thought the threat was INUNDATION .....LOL.
Now it’s FIRE . Next year it’ll be ( moderate ) FLOODS and then it’ll be EXTREME ( mean ) cyclonic activity.
OMF newspaper selling Godddddddd !
Ok I’ll concede that our coal is cleaner, I read the fact checker. But given the current state of environmental catastrophe that the world/Australia is facing, don’t you think it’s like comparing heroin to OxyContin.
Am I a hater yes and no. Do I have a strong hate for the current LNP. Yes. Do I think Australia as a whole could do much better with out its ultra right wing fascist agenda. Yes.
In regards to extractive resource companies. Do I think we are getting raped by large multinationals. Yes.
Do I think there is a revolving door between industry and public office facilitating the rape of Australia. Yes
Do I think LNP apologists and even worse those that appear to barrack for them in the face of reality are shit cunts. Yes.
Do I love Australia. Yes. I think we have the resources and smarts to be so much better than we are but are being held back by corporate lobbying, and prime minister who is a complete dolt and his band of treasonous shit cunts.
I couldn’t go into much more detail as I’m sitting in my car and it’s the end of the day.
I’m going to smoke a joint.
That’s the most precise and uncluttered writing I’ve witnessed in quite some time.
Putting the Cronulla “ riots “ into context.....finally.
“ The average Australian terrorist is likely to share several characteristics. He is likely to be in his mid-20s from Sydney, born in Australia to overseas-born parents who are still married (with one or both from Lebanon). He is likely to be employed in a blue-collar job and not to have mental health issues.“
Sydney Morning Herald
Friday 22 November 2019
@ Soggy dog
You still have to accept the reality that by not supplying coal to India etc it extremely unlikely to cause them to reduce their use of coal, if you want to compare things to drugs, it's like the police nabbing a drug dealer and then expecting the junkie to then give up heroin or cut down.
Forcing India and others to go elsewhere just means overall carbon emissions will increase, it's the reality people have to accept no matter their political views.
Offcourse people will write this off as Murdoh press BS, but what do people think will happen?
Love to hear some theories.
It's just not realistic to expect countries like India and China with populations of 1.3 billion people each to just switch to renewables over night, remember we are talking developing countries with huge issues to deal with as it is, although many proposed have been scrapped they are still building coal fired power stations and in the last 15 years built large numbers, you really expect them to just now knock them down? without replacement energy?
Only theory ive heard with any type of weight is that by not allowing our coal to be used prices of coal they source elsewhere will be forced up, pushing up prices and forcing them to renewables faster, id love to hear an experts opinion on this but i cant see it happening, in the past demand would have been always increasing slowly increasing prices but overall demand is most likely slowing as world demand slows, it will only become unviable to use coal once renewables really kick in and it will become unviable much faster in developed countries first but this effect will be slower in developing countries.
I guess it's only natural to complain about governments in power, personally i think we dodged a huge bullet with Shorten so if im honest i guess id be whinging like nothing else if he got in.
So basically the stereo type is true?
Not the same at all Andy, what seems right doesn't always work. Extinction Rebellion being a classic example. Fight for the Bight being another. Why, because of energy and intention. Both movements seem to be right, that is, being in favor of being good custodians of planet earth. But unfortunately a lot of the energy being used is in opposition. EL have now just as much opposition as support and most people's thoughts now focus on their rat bag behaviors rather than the real issue. Fight for the Bight is going the same way because a lot of the focus is on the unwanted outcomes rather than the real issue. Fight, someone has to win and lose rather than a win win. So the law of probability gets activated and yes so called small victories may happen but an honest look at humanity shows we are still a very divisive and dysfunctional species. So I invite anyone who seeks long term functional change to remember that the unification of energetic intention is paramount. So for the Bight issue, I would be solely focusing on the natural beauty of the area, it's wildlife, how lucky we are to be custodians of this area plus also as Australians how lucky this issue shows us we no longer have to drill for fossil fuels to survive. We have the technology and resources to move into the exciting new economy of clean electricity production and in fact worldwide evidence shows this to be the case. So this approach demonstrates it acts in accordance with the current situation, it can be backed by science, environmental laws, economic reasoning and shows remarkable insight and aptitude for the growth of Australian sociey. A protest at this time will just allow the government and supportive media marginalize the activity and it's participants taking away from the good cause and painting it as a radical is at ion attack against jobs for hard working Australians- vomit vomit. So I won't be protesting, I will be celebrating, celebrating our beautiful natural environments and celebrating our opportunity to create and grow Australia's clean electricity transition and future generation. Big difference between being labeled a protestor and a proud australian looking after our beautiful landscapes. That's all from me, huey, how about some offshore and some swell old mate?
@IndoDreaming “ So what would you like to see happen? remembering it has to be realistic in that it cant send our economy into recession.”
I think this is the crux of the problem.
No one wants to look at themselves hard enough and admit we’ve been so greedy it is unsustainable. That includes breeding at the top of the list
Dave, you've thrown up a big block of blurt but you've shown no understanding that picking and choosing from accepted facts (because "actually it is all about me" and I only care about what works for me) can and does has serious ramifications.
Hope you find a wave, cheers.
Thank God I have you then Andy to tell me how it really is. Really, thank you god for bringing AndyM into my life to lead me home. Once I was lost, but now I'm found. Amazing grace, hallelujah brothers and sisters, hallelujah. Seriously, not serious. All the best to you too Andy.
I was waiting for something like that :)
Unlike you, it's not all about me.
I'm not a physicist, political scientist, meteorologist etc etc. if you know what I'm saying.
Maybe put the ego aside sometime Dave?
Yes Shoredump yes population growth is obviously the big problem as we have talked about here a lot, really dont know what the answer is.
Cutting immigration rates makes us look better on paper but comes at the expense of the economy and dosent really help globally.
Our immigration rates are 1.7% of pop, compared to countries like USA and UK at 0.6%
ha ha please dont put extortion rebellion and protestors for bight side by side, they are complete polar opposites.
Extortion rebellion as just a bunch of anarchist looking for an excuse for social disobedience using illegal tactics that piss the public off, their core group is made up of serial protestors and they have unrealistic demands like zero world emissions by 2025. (many even get paid, thy raise funds on website etc)
Bight protestors are legal law abiding protest that dont cause a nuisance, i doubt serial protestors are involved id expect the majority would never have protested before.
One is an example of how not to do things, the other is the example of how to do things.
Wonder if Stu or Ben could invest in some form of online chakra realignment service here ....
Check yourself in here ...https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JniV66yxhbw
From my perspective Extinction Rebellion are the only group who recognise how serious our environmental (and social) problems are. Those who propose gradual change (please do not alarm the bourgeoisie) are too little too late. When the time for evolution has gone, there is only one place left to go .....
Indo, your last sentence is spot on, that's why I mentioned it today before tomorrow's paddle out, to remind what is truly important about the paddle out.Andy, I am happy I gave you what you were waiting for and I see that you still are asking me to behave the way you want me to be. Why can't you just allow me to be me, egotistical or not? So let's do what's right based on accepted facts, my name is David Burdon, 5/ 8 frances st tweed heads 2485, [email protected]. Give me your details here Andy, please don't hide behind the fiction of forum anonymity or other justifications. The ramifications are huge. Let's practise what we preach here hey. Just kidding Andy, I'm right into an adapted form of the wim Hoff breathing method at the moment and it is allowing me to get into a very deep meditation that is both stimulating and peaceful at the same time. A bit like your best barrel of your life combined with the best or gas of your life but totally relaxing as well. So off I go.
Maybe if we are fair its that scenario where you go in suggesting something crazy and unrealistic knowing it wont happen, instead of suggesting something realistic in the hope the result ends up being better than what you would have suggested if had been a realistic goal?
Dont know, but i think the whole groups tactics in every way are just totally wrong, im sure they will self implode in time anyway, they don't really have any proper unity or centralised core, in time i can see the radicals and their tactics will get even more radical and lose support from less radicals and the group will splinter off in different directions.
Surely sooner or latter some of their protest will erupt into violence too, its just a pity most far right groups have jobs to go too on working days otherwise it might have already happened..
Just heard on the radio that more refugees will be located in towns like Wollongong and Newcastle in a bid to slow population growth down in those areas. Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane have carried the load mostly. Enjoy.
Indo, having followed the science and observed the changes I believe that we have gone beyond several tipping points and are locked into catastrophic climate change that is made even worse by every extra molecule of greenhouse gases that we continue to emit. Sorry if radical actions disturb your lifestyle or sense of propriety but it is probably going down the tube over the next decade anyway, so better get used to it now.
So group tactics like the IPA and the Mineral Council of Australia use to hold Australia to ransom. These are the organisations that they where protesting in Melbourne. Have a good hard look at resource rent agreements, payment deferrals, subsidies and the general shit fuckery that these guys get away with. Not to mention the effects on out natural environment. And ER should be trying to blockade that meeting.
Not only do they rip us off. They have undue influence over government that is effecting our democracy negatively.
Not protesting would be irresponsible.
ID, we already have coal mines that are supplying our super sick clean coal to the poor third world nations to help lift them up already. But if we are to phase out coal why would we approve what is to become the worlds biggest coal mine. Even when there is little to no financial gain to Australia once the maths are done, only a mess to clean up.
And if jobs is your answer, that is a terrible answer, give people jobs in an industry we are trying to phase out.
I’m giving up heroin......,....tomorrow.
The existing coal mines and port facilities based out of Newcastle will be in direct competition with Adani and any other mine in that part of FNQ. Exiting mines and existing ports none of which are remotely close to the end of their operational life. So India can still get all that good clean coal that Aunty Esme loves to talk about without Adani etc.
So why do we need Adani again?
Do these groups/mining companies also provide mineral needed for renewables?
IMHO it's really up to companies to decide the viability of mining, im sure Adani also being a leader in renewables would know their stuff especially compared to us or media or others opinions.
Same goes with the government im sure if they and Australia doesn't benefit in a very big way they wouldn't allow it to happen, i believe even if Labor had got elected they supported the going ahead of Adani's mine and seems end of the day QLD state government run under labor seems to support it too.