Submitted by Craig on Fri, 08/24/2012 - 13:02
This is huge news, Lance Armstrong stands to lose all this Tour De France titles after giving up his fight against the United States Anti-Doping Agency.
He's quoted "If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance."
"But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair."
Very hard to understand why he would drop his fight if he were innocent, but I can't see him being a drug cheat..
is it always Drugs ...
I'm sure i heard somewhere that they were all doing Blood Transfusions anyway ....
" SA's Reserve Capacity "
He's probably so sick of spending all his time in court that he just can't be bothered with it anymore. He's been put through the ringer for years and has probably had enough.
Can't see how stripping him of his titles is going to change his quality of life any so why bother?
It's so long ago now that if they do strip him of the titles the persons that came second aren't really going to benefit from it either from a sponsorship perspective - they've probably retired by now anyway.
But is dropping the fight against USADA an admission of guilt?
That's the crux of the matter.
Ya I agree Maddog - Check out the statement from his site. He's just fed up with all the shit he has had to deal with.
Passed every test they have given him. What else can he do?
Dunno Stu - isn't it innocent until proven guilty? If someone calls you a wanker is it up to you to prove you are not a wanker? If you don't say anything and just walk away does that prove that you are? Not in my book it doesn't.
This sort of crap goes on all the time. Person A says Person B has done something. The media jump all over it and splash it on the front page. Person B then spends the next x years defending themselves against something they didn't do. Meanwhile everyone forms their own opinion and Person B gets crucified losing sponsorship, friends etc. Eventually Person B is proven innocent and it gets a mention next to the obituaries. Now everyone remembers Person B as that guy that did something wrong and not that guy that was the best at what he did. Fair? Not really.....
How more guilty do you want him to be?
Multiple postive B samples
Multiple testimonies against him
Pharmstrong saw the water getting hot then bailed.
Yes they are.
Plenty of riders who raced '05 are still racing.
Cycling is so dirty that even guys low div teams are on the juice -- not that other professional sports are much better cycling justs tests more.
warning. essay to follow.
Lance is guilty. There is really no two ways about it. It goes very deep. To put it simply, he was protected by the UCI and a host of other influential people both inside and outside of cycling (politicians, big business). The narrative he has spun for years about being clean because of never failing a test is a complete and utter fiction. He did not pass all of his tests, the ones he failed were covered up. There is very strong evidence for this. He also had tests which fell just below the 'threshold' that could be technically called a 'positive' but were nonetheless clear evidence of doping manipulation to a trained eye. He worked with the best well known doping doctors in cycling for years. He beat the best cyclists in the world for years, the majority of whom at one time or another have tested positive for doping and/or admitted directly or indirectly to doping most of their careers
USADA have 10-15 witness testimonies against lance. These are past teammates, mechanics, doctors and obviously, friends. Some would have made deals with USADA to have their own transgressions/punishments forgiven/lessened (as much of they evidence USADA holds and their own testimonials obviously also incriminates them) and could therefore be accused of having something to gain by testifying. But many of them have nothing to gain. Many that have been accusing Lance for years have never had anything to gain and have in fact been absolutely smashed by Lance and his PR machine to the gross detriment of their professional and personal lives. Lance was a massive cash-cow for a lot of people for many years. Politicians, big business inside and outside of cycling, the UCI etc etc. His image being tarnished has always been a threat to these various interests and so anyone that tried to tarnish it was discredited as harshly, thoroughly and quickly as possible. Some of them shut up, some of them stuck to their guns despite it being in their best interests to shut up. Their are countless stories of the various people that have been chewed up by the Lance machine.
Lance may not be any more guilty of doping/cheating than a host of other top cycling pros over the last few decades (the whole moral/ethical argument regarding doping/cheating in certain sports is murky as hell when it is so embedded in the culture that an athlete really only has a choice to dope or quit). He was still probably the best all around cyclist in the tour de france for 7 years. But he sure as shit is guilty of being a sociopathic cnut who has gone to any lengths to protect his legacy and wealth. The UCI has been largely complicit in the whole fraud. They continue to be as dodgy, incompetent and inconsistent as always. If this went to arbitration then a lot of things would come out that are in Lance's and the UCI (and many other peoples) best interests to keep quiet. Lance and his people know they can't defend these charges and also know the process of doing so would prove far more damaging than just giving up now (because at least the people that still support him can say it's not an admission of guilt and that he is just 'sick and tired' of it all. It would also cost him a very large chunk of the empire he has built on deception and bullying to fight it all the way. he fought the federal charges last year like hell. He was facing jail with that one... not just useless bans and symbolic title anullments. He is right, USADA can't really hurt him all that much by stripping the titles and banning him. He doesn't compete anymore. He has his money. The people that have blindly followed him for years despite all the evidence to the contrary will still blindly follow him no matter what USADA say. The only thing it might do is give a few more people who have never really been exposed to the details the chance to look at the evidence and realise that he has basically been the star of the biggest sporting fraud in history... pumping shit into his body (EPO, Corticosteroids, Testosterone, Blood transfusions, Human Growth Hormone, god knows what else) while advocating a clean living website to help and inspire millions of cancer sufferers...
I could provide link after link after link to back all of this up and i probably should but there is just too much. I am a road cycling fan that has taken a major interest in the whole doping thing for years. I thought Lance was clean for years too. I defended him with various arguments for years but when you start looking at the evidence you simply can't hold onto those opinions. I have no agenda. I am not affiliated with anything that has any stake in any of it. There are just a lot of people out there that still believe Lance was somehow this incredible clean athlete because his PR machine has been so powerful and they havn't had the time or interest to look past it. It's all fairly easy to find if you're really that interested. Just start in cycling forums about doping. Ignore the crazy zealots on both sides debating extremes and look at the relevant links. Lance is almost universally hated by dedicated, knowledgeable cycling fans and by many pros past and present. It is not born from jealousy, just massive weight of evidence and people left in his wake. He is slippery as fuck but he has finally been nailed... sort of. The case being fought would have been better... but they couldn't allow that to happen cause it would have properly fucked them and left no-one with any doubt whatsoever... oh well. At least none of our pure clean AUSSIE boys and girls have never doped and never will... ha. yeah, that is sarcasm, sorry.
yeah... blow in was a little more succinct. what he said...
Very interesting grug, I only follow cycling when the Tour comes around each year, but it seems you're much more involved.
I'm guessing the cycling threads are going nuts at the moment.
Do you have some links if you don't mind to some of the evidence/discussions etc.
It will be very interesting what comes out of this.
His work for Cancer charities etc. can't be knocked though, and if he has been cheating, at least he's given something back and not just run off with his wealth like most would
What in the end is the purpose? Probably everyone knew he cheated..but in the end the moments of history has passed. All the exhilaration he felt and cycling fans felt wont change. It is like the Storm or Bulldogs in RL having there titles taken off them..Their experience of the event wont changge or dampen neither will the fans..The critics will have a field day, of course, Carl Lewis's achievements are the same..Where does this go or stop..How can we be sure about the current champions of each sport? Is there any value of living in the moment? Thoughts?
I'd just point out re: livestrong that livestrong.com is Lance's (partialy owned) for profit website and that the lance armstrong foundation (Livestrong.org) doesn't actually do any research just rehab ect.
Fwiw most cycling forums have entire subforums dedicated to doping discussion. The thread on cycling news about the USDA inquiry is 10k posts long forum.cyclingnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20
I'm not as strongly in their camp but try this page but try this for some of the evidence (some of it better than others)
(Sorry for the french but I'm lazy)
Hi Craig. Yeah the forums would be going nuts. I read them less these days because tbh, the more you find out about doping in sport the more you realise how pervasive (i.e. hopelessly corrupted and corruptible) it is in pretty much any sport where there is decent money to be made. The perfomance enhancing drug trade is massive. I once read figures that put it in the realm of illicit recreational narcotics worldwide. I have been searching for that source for awhile cause i never saved it and everyone finds it hard to believe. But you have to look at the bigger picture, PED's are obtained (largely from wholesale pharmaceutical manufacturers and on a smaller scale from specific universities/hospitals/private laboratories for the higher quality or more exotic stuff) and distributed by largely the same criminal organisations that deal in illicit recreational narcotics. The biggest markets are actually amateur sportsmen who simply have enough money and narcissism to want to cheat. Then there is obviously bodybuilders all over the world who use them quite openly. It is rife in mainstream american sports all the way from professional through college and juniours. MLB, NFL, Ice hockey.... Not sure about NBA as I haven't looked into it but I would assume the same use of testosterone and certain steroids are common. Testing is minimal in all these sports and the NFL simply ban you for a few weeks if you get caught. It is rife in MMA. probably boxing as well. definitly wrestling. Credible current MMA fighters have publicly estimated PED's to be used by 80-90% of the fighters they have trained with and heard about. It is also rife in many olympic sports and is most likely funded and facilitated by government sporting agencies in the smaller sports and the already developed facilitation networks in the more established sports. EPO is especially rife in Soccer... look into up how many elite young otherwise healthy footballers have simply dropped dead from heart failure on the field in the last decade in european leagues. scary shit. This is an unfortunate end point of abusing epo too much. Your hematocrit (percentage of white blood cells) gets so high that your blood is too thick for your heart to pump easily and can mechanically fails. Many cyclists have myteriously died in their sleep over the years but you rarely find the true cause of death investigated or reported.
The market is huge. The criminal organisations are powerful. And the athletes, at the end of the chain don't always have a choice. If you want to be the best or at least competitive and thus financially successful in the sport you have given your young life and future too then you either have to take the stuff and shut up or find some other legal way to compete.... that is at least how it was in cycling for many years... it looks to be a little better now. It is almost impossible to tell for sure though. Team Sky have dominated so much this season that it borders on incredulity. In many sports, the skill aspect can mean that a really freakishly talented athlete can still beat doped athletes clean with their superiority of skill... however, there is always an advantage to be made by doping in strength, speed, power and endurance... so even in a sport like tennis (or surfing though i don't think there is enough money or competition in surfing for the network to have bothered) where skill is paramount, players of roughly equal skill level can gain a winning advantage over each other by boosting stamina, power etc... or a lesser skilled player can become more competitive with a higher skill player... see Djokovic and Federer for example. Do you think Djokovic magically came out and basically went unbeaten for two entire seasons because he found out he was gluten intolerant (as the story went) and so changed his diet and had more energy to train more effectively. Complete BS. The guy was juicing hardcore. Faster, stronger, longer... no more quitting or getting tired, no more injuries mid game... Do you remember how huge Nadal looked... compare photo's of how massive and ripped he was when he was winning everything and before he started being accused of doping and then got chronic knee issues... to the last couple of seasons since returning. he is noticeably less cut and muscular. does he dominate anymore? the WTA hardly test there athletes and if a marquee player tested positive i would bet everything i have that they would cover it up if they could. They also don't talk about doping. If anyone tryies to bring up doping on tennis forums they simply get shouted down and then banned from the forum. It is a taboo, you never hear the commentators talk about it either. Don't rock the boat. they don't wanna know because it will hurt the bottom line. Much of world sport, between doping, fixing and corporate manipulation, is a farce... Operacion Puerto a few years back broke before the Le Tour and ended with a few teams being taken out of the tour because it provided proof of blood doping throughout the majority of their teams. A bunch of other cyclists were also implicated and have been charged with various punishments since. There were roughly another 130 high profile european athletes from other sports (largely football and tennis from memory) on that list who's involvement were never released or investigated. That was only one single investigation. There have been many more since that which have uncovered drug rings involved dozens of athletes but it seems to always just be the cyclists that get pinpointed. Everything else magically goes away... I could go on and one with other examples but i'll be here all night....
Evidence and links to evidence and much knowledge can be found in this forum...
The problem with the forum is that it is a very well established and densely argued and reargued kinda place with all kinds of crazies who post regularly with certain biases and agendas... within that is some very level headed, rational and knowledgeable people who have spent their lives within professional cycling and sports. Their are posts from Jonathan Vaughters (ex-teammate of Armstrong and current DS of professional cycling team Garmin), Joe Papp (well known convicted doper and distributer who has testified in various high profile doping cases since being caught) and even the mechanic who talked out about Lance after finding PEDs in a spanish apartment that Lance had asked him to clean before his missus got there (this is a well documented allegation in the Lance doping allegation history). There are posts from all sorts of people that know there shit because they have been involved. There are links to many credible sources hidden throughout... it just hard to find within the laboured epic threads filled mostly with insider comments and back and forth snipes from regulars and the outlandish paranoia of those that are convinced that everybody who ever wins anything is a doper ... it is all there though, the truth, amongst the bullshit.
The whole Livestrong cancer thing is not clear cut either. Yes, it cannot be denied that he has raised an unprecedented amount of money and awareness for cancer sufferers. That is great. that cannot be taken away from the man... however.. it has always been very difficult to distinguish Livestrong.org (the not-for-profit cancer charity) from Livestrong.com (the FOR PROFIT business). A lot of people have spent money on livestrong.com under the erroneous impression that they were supporting the charity. Lance and many others have made a lot of money from this easy mistake and not gone out of their ways to make it clearer. There is also the fact that Armstrongs narrative and mythology is a lie. Yes he has helped lots of people, but he has also completely decieved them and taken them for fools. It is possible, but obviously impossible to prove, that his all the substance abuse he had already undertaken as a junior and pro partly contributed to his own cancer. some of the shit he is purported to have been on back then has been shown to increase cancer risk. but then again doesn't everything these days...
anyway, i have way too much time on my hands. I am sitting in a clinical trial doing nothing. just fair warning if you have anymore questions! i'm just hoping Teahupo'o cranks up before i get outta here so i can watch it without my girlfriend being on my back about it.
tell you what. i'd fill up on coke and ice if i had too surf it over 4ft as well... PEDS in surfing... not many i don't think. not enough money. amphetamines, dope and hallucinogens... heaps. but that debates been had already. it's simply a matter of professional health and safety, not cheating...
once again... blow in got there before me with less verbiage...;)
oh yeah... this link is a fairly comprehensive index of the countless allegations and investigations over the years... just the reports though.
smoke, fire. all that... yeah.
So you can ty this into the 'drugs and surfing' thread then grug? If so and corporations are running it ...does swellnet 'tow the company/corporate line'?
Sorry Barley, I am not exactly sure what you are asking? I think you are asking (please correct me if i am wrong because i'm genuinely not 100% clear on my comprehension of your question) asking whether or not I think 'Swellnet' is somehow passively complicit in world doping and doping in surfing based on your belief that they tow the company/corporate line... and that also being based in your misunderstanding that i somewhere stated that corporations ran the doping trade?
If that is what you are asking then it is hard to answer because i never said 'corporations are running it'. I said a large proportion of PED's are sourced from large-scale pharmaceutical manufacturers... yes, big pharma are corp... but i never said they were necessarily the ones proffiting or orchestrating. They might be, i'm not sure. I would assume they directly and/or indirectly profit from it to some extent but as for orchestration, I have no evidence or knowledge of the extent to which this happens. Most of the drugs are sourced from factories in China and Eastern Europe as far as I know. These factories produce large amounts of all sorts of chems cheap. I would assume that big pharma source much of their base chems from these places and/or possibly own/part-own them, That doesn't mean big pharma makes the deals with powerful organised criminal syndicates working with these same factories. It could be local rogue operators who work in or manage the facilities turning their own penny on the side... I have no idea. Corps obviously profit from sport and doping in sport but that doesn't mean they run the dope game. they may do. it wouldn't surprise me. i just know that organised crime have there ways of getting and distributing it.
Still, i explicitly stated that i don't think PED's are common in surfing. It is a highly skill based sport without a large scale competitive apparatus or BIG money to be made (relatively speaking). Illicit recreationals are another matter. I have an opinion on the whole billabong/AI/rottmouth debate but this isn't the thread for it. And I think Swellnet operate so far removed from the international doping network and those that run it and profit from it that there is essentially no way they could be accused of towing any attached lines. We are all marionettes in one way or another... and i'm sure Swellnet have some kind of dark lord pulling the strings... but it aint the corps as far as i can see... just Ben and Stu's greedy selfish motivations to put food on their tables and practice what they love by thinking and writing about what they love. i can understand that. i'd do the same given the opportunity.
i hope i understood your question?
Thanks for the lengthy reply above Grug.
I'm totally with you regarding the open use of performance enhancing drug use in body building, college football etc, but surely it can't exist in the elite level tennis circles. It seems like too big a risk for the ATP to run having drug cheats in the sport that could possibly bring the game down.
The comments on heart failures on field in the soccer world makes sense though and it seem like you've done a lot of research in the area of the use of PED's in amateur and professional spots. I've never really thought too much of it but you bring up some interesting points.
Barley's points above looks at it from a different angle and I totally agree..
"What in the end is the purpose? Probably everyone knew he cheated..but in the end the moments of history has passed. All the exhilaration he felt and cycling fans felt wont change. It is like the Storm or Bulldogs in RL having there titles taken off them..Their experience of the event wont changge or dampen neither will the fans..The critics will have a field day, of course, Carl Lewis's achievements are the same..Where does this go or stop..How can we be sure about the current champions of each sport? Is there any value of living in the moment?"
The doping doesn't change the 'experience' and feeling/emotions that we go through when watching the sport or event. It's disappointing when it comes out later down the track, but by then the feelings have generally passed.
As technology improves I'm guessing there'll be more and more ways to cheat that will be undetectable and there'll be little we can do about it unfortunately; which is disheartening.
Regarding Barley's question of the point: In a sport as infamously dirty as cycling, wouldn't taking down cycling's golden boy be a powerful message that doping won't be tolerated? Mind you, cleaning up cycling seems like a fool's errand. I would guess there is much more money in innovating new drugs, but precious little in testing advancement.
Regarding Lance -
Proving someone was doping is a tough ask, especially at the sophisticated end of the PED market. From my knowledge (which is admittedly limited), it seems that testing isn't a simple case of running a few qualitative tests. There are mitigating factors that cast doubt, and there are thresholds of normalcy that naturally exist (that may naturally spike).
Proving beyond a doubt doesn't always seem to be simple - based on results alone.
Backing it up with the subjective claims of some of his past peers (who may or may not bear grudges) makes it a very sticky bit of mud to be thrown at Lance.
So regardless of whether or not he is guilty, it seems that by simply opting out he saves himself from further scrutiny - which would no doubt damage his brand. There has always been a shadow over his achievements, so why not just continue carrying that shadow? Hell, the media will move on pretty quick, much quicker than if it went to the court of arbitration.
Anyway, the up shot of all this is the fact that the Herald Sun got to use the line: "Lance takes his ball and goes home".
Almost as brilliant as "Thorpie tosses in towel".
Results may vary.
Classic. I didn't see that headline.
You guys are both right... He won those tours. He beat the best in the world who were all cheating too. He was most likely the best cyclist of his generation. The problem is, maybe there was a couple of clean guys with absolute integrity hanging on at the back of the peloton or even in the top 30/40/50 that would have been the best with the same drugs regime. Maybe even some juniors or amateurs that could have been better in that generation but turned away from the sport when they realised what they would have to do to be the 'best'. That is the real tragedy of such a pervasive drug culture in any sport. The guys winning are most likely the best regardless of the drugs, but you can never be sure cause everyone is on a slightly different program and also... every single athlete responds differently to different doping products. Some athletes with see only minor percentage gains while some will see massive improvement. They are called good and bad responders. It becomes less about sport and more just a chemical arms race when gains are high enough to that they cannot be achieved with legal training and nutrition methodology.
And like you both said. The arms race is impossible to win for the doping authorities because testing is just so fucking complicated and expensive. Coming up with a new test and having it approved after a new drug is found is a complete nightmare in terms of expense, time and red tape. And then, when a positive is found, the legal process can stretch on for years in some cases where he athlete has the money to properly fight it (like Alberto Contador for example)... and some athletes get done for stupid shit (from not reading ingredients on supplements etc) when they had no intention of cheating but still get nailed. The entire testing process is completely and utterly inadequate but there is really no other way. It's just too damed complicated and expensive to make it really effective. It only catches athletes who stuff up, get really unlucky with a surprise test or are just stupid or misinformed. Criminal investigations into the doctors, distributors and supply rings have proven far more fruitful... and are far scarier for the people with more sway than the athletes. It is the athletes more often than not get screwed.
It's not about Lance really, he'll always have his supporters and yeah, you can't really take away what he did. It's more the way he did it that grates on those of us who have followed the whole thing. He has been utterly ruthless, arrogant and remorseless. He has gone above and beyond for years and years to destroy any threat and protect his brand. It's completely understandable. An admission would destroy him. His latest decision was his best move in this regard. The evidence will still come out in public at some point, and it will damage him further. But many will never be convinced either way (unless he says he cheated) cause they need to believe in the myth. It's not cheating that matters, it's the years of outright lies and fuckery that people really hate him for.
Doping in sport aint going anywhere as long as there is money to be made. You either accept it or switch off. I don't like the uncertainty it brings but i accept it.
I wouldn't be so sure about Tennis Craig... it's not such a risk for the ATP when you hardly test and your testing is run from within. Any positives can easily be covered up. I have heard that the ATP's preferred mode of operation is to simply warn any top players to be careful if they find positives as they can't control all testing all the time and don't want it to be too obvious. Occasionally they slaughter a smaller time player as a sacrificial PR lamb. Agassi admitted in his book that they covered up his positive for amphetamine or whatever it was. same people running it these days. DIrty as hell. oh well.
Look's like all your research and coverage of this story have been verified today Grug with the release of over 1,000 pages of supporting evidence against Lance Armstrong and the Postal Service Team..
Looks like he was actually a cheat which personally is pretty disappointing (not to take away from his work with charities and fighting cancer).
Lance was a victim and a pawn. The US Postal Service enabled him. It was under pressure from email and Twitter, and used him to show the world that you can't send acid tabs electronically. BUT........!!! USPS failed. Now its going under Soon the whole global postal edifice will come crashing down. Just wait and see. I said it first. JOIN THE DOTS!!!!
Sorry about that. I felt briefly possessed by the Idiot Bunny.
Some interesting points have been raised. Consequently it is not hard to imagine some pro surfers could be taking ped's especially consideringthe age of some of the successful competitors. The prize money in pro surfing may not be huge but the endorsement money is very lucrative.
Top show on T.V last night on Lance and team.
didn't see show last nite...not on French TV.....but its pretty clear that Armstrong took banned performance enhancing drugs....his defence that everybody else was doing it is weak....
he was the best at it,but got caught out with all the people he burnt who turned against him.
Now that he dropping charges against the USADA's body....his official sponsors will now try and recuperate all the money they paid in sponsorship....
U S postal are claiming ,I think,$110 m back....Armstrong possibly will have to pay back $100'sm......so its onto the next court cases......damn those Lawyers ....
Was a facinating show hey SABF ....
I knew most of the details , but to have all those interviews condensed into one show , just showed how coldly he went about it ... ( hey uplift , I was waiting for when your name would show up , you know being such an elite trainer and all .. . People were talking about it on JJJ today , and some still said . " hey he still raised the profile of cancer " yada yada yada .....
Reality is that , who knows what sorts of substances he took ... ie , did he actually inflict his own cancer ... ? ( obviously not on purpose , but a side effect to perhaps large doses of HGH , etc .... )
I look at how driven he is , and see one person in surfing that perhaps mirrors his psychopathic approach to winning .
Too bad drugs don't enhance surfing hey Uppy ... You know since their not elite and all . Although like AFL many believe that some amphetamines actually help people slow down and analyse fast moving scenarios . Obviously some of the big wave guys have been fingered as " marching to their own beat " ...
But what about something for getting over injuries ( steroids , cortizone ) , or things for soft tissue flexibility , anti aging ......
Then people I've spoken too that around athletics circles , say that " the bolts " , historical timeline of times , fall off a cliff so to speak . So in effect don't add up to natural ...
Back to cycling I see Daryl Impey (SA) , who rode for Orica Green Edge ... Isn't in the upcoming TDF ....
Thoughts anyone ?!?
Yeh, gee whillakers, cheepers, the Armstrong thing was all such a revelation and shock.
You shoulda used something brokeback - chicken - soufle, well, something stronger anyway. Mighta helped you stop shitting yourself, and got you over the line to at least try and surf blacks. Maybe you could be the first balls transplant case?
I hope, but doubt, that your elite athletic background and savvy (well actually what elite sporting background) is better than your understanding of and dribble (well, actually, simply put, bullshit, or crap at best) about hailstones and stuff. How is your training going this month, any new clients? Ever had a client? Don't let that stop you from being a swellnut champ though.
How's that performance enhancing high chair going?
'I look at how driven he is , and see one person in surfing that perhaps mirrors his psychopathic approach to winning .'
Like anyone gives a fuck.
Go to the second post at the top Uppy ....
Not new news .... Just thought the show was a sobering one having all the denials in one show ....
Just like the ASP thread where you continually tell yourself how good you are ...
For starters, cycling.... I'd rather watch cane toad racing... Or episodes of "the bold and the beautiful"... Shit, I'd even watch gridiron..... Now, Armstrong.... A cheat is a cheat.... So obvious... Couldn't give a flying fuck what he's done for charities.... I've had cancer..... Armstrong doesn't impress me whatsoever.... Rolf Harris did heaps for charities.... Yer yer..... Drug cheat v pedo... A hardcore analogy... But Armstrong and others made it impossible for honest sportsmen.... Robbed them of fame, sponsorship dollars... I bet some of the clean cyclists would've done heaps for a charity too, if given the chance.... But Armstrong and his chemical bro's robbed them of the chance.... possibly ruined lives....
Now, Essendon.... What a blight on Australian sport.... Hird should walk the plank.... Lawyers looking for loopholes... We scream at the rest of the world when we see chinese women with men's bodies, Armstrong, Ben Johnson.... But when it is in our backyard, "oh the players are under duress... Oh what about James....." Hypocrisy on a grand scale...
Now... Surfing..... Do we go there? Or do we scatter like rats?
Do we care if fanning, parko etc are having a few lines or a few puffs of the sweet 'erb?
But when it's comes to performance "enhancing" drugs, that's tidak bagus
Couldn't give a fuck about depressants or opiates, goofy...... But stimulants? Steroids? We all know dope, alcohol, smack, even trips don't improve one's surfing... They actually do the opposite..... But speed? Hmmm.... Coke?. Hmmmm.... Go go go!!!
Don't they give speed to fighter pilots?
Sheepdog wrote: Don't they give speed to fighter pilots?
Don't they go fast enough as it is...
Cyclists don't break the sound barrier, the only sound they make is when they hit the tarmac and go "OOOOhhhhh I've scratched my huge shaven pretty leg's, and hurt my little wee shoulders"
Take them off the road I reckon they're menaces.
Our brains are too small at the moment to comprehend the reality of what's happening in our forests . We're only just waking up so to speak . The big problem is we think we know everything, we are specks of dust on a timeline and we know nothing .
Interesting comment by Christophe bassons who was basically drummed out of cycling through that era. Not only did he refuse to use performance enhancing products, but openly wrote about the situation in a regular column in I think a French newspaper. The quote was I think" that while the life expectancy for an average person continues to rise, the life expectancy for a professional cyclist is falling" choose your own path
wellymon wrote: Sheepdog wrote: Don't they give speed to fighter pilots?
Don't they go fast enough as it is...
Cyclists don't break the sound barrier, the only sound they make is when they hit the tarmac and go "OOOOhhhhh I've scratched my huge shaven pretty leg's, and hurt my little wee shoulders"
Take them off the road I reckon they're menaces.
Make them pay rego and compulsory 3rd party insurance... Like all road users....
Lance Armstrong ordered to repay 12.87 mill of Tour De france bonuses.