freeride76, 1630471527
how's the toe-in on those Mirandon twin pins.
Fan of the McKee set-up on quads.
radiationrules, 1630474550
erudite summary - many thanks stu - i look foward to part 2
velocityjohnno, 1630475284
Jake Spooner won a comp on a 6 fin too.
spidermonkey, 1630475340
What about the twingle? You didn't mention the twingle!
Hall of Lame, 1630475730
Awesome read Stu. Thank you.
Can anyone explain this? I ride, on smaller days, a two one set up. Big twin fin with little stabilizer back fin. I get that I gain some control of the looseness of a twinnie with that little back fin.
I still do not really understand the concept of the two small side fins with the big single fin that guys ride on mid lengths and bigger. I've seen some really good surfers on them so I figure they must work. Any thoughts on how/why?
channel-bottom, 1630476429
Great writeup, any possibility of an update which includes 1+2 Widowmaker setup and 5 fin Bonzer setups as well?
udo, 1630476468
2 plus 1 setup
1 large centre fin with 2 smaller side fins
Large centre fin provides stability and 2 smaller side fins give extra control and manoeuverbility
From The Surfboard warehouse.
BÓTON, 1630476860
Love these articles mate, but no bonzers?
BÓTON, 1630477682
Well
Beat me to it
udo, 1630478431
Wingnuts going dig this article..
loves playing with Toe and Cant and Placement
And lets not forget Roy.
seaslug, 1630479063
Great article Stu
3vickers, 1630480454
I laugh at myself in memory of the first time I rode a quad - (sadly 20 + years ago!!)...that thing was so fast & loose it felt like I was always a couple of seconds behind it....I never really mastered it to be truthful and haven't had the skill/budget/knowledge/desire to experiment further - a thruster serves you pretty well I reckon
GuySmiley, 1630480766
Looking forward to this so much, what a topic, much gratitude,
GuySmiley, 1630480929
X2
velocityjohnno, 1630482649
Yes it's a great topic
Shoutout also to late 1980s Perth boardmaker Barracuda with the 7 fin board.
velocityjohnno, 1630482804
I find cutbacks go longer on the 2+1, ie traverse more distance. A thruster is more responsive. 2+1 is a half way house between the single fin rail drive that covers a lot of ground and the thruster ability to make speed by tick-tacking the rails which gives directional freedom.
Hazrus, 1630484454
I've always liked quad rear boxes placed closer to the stringer. Makes more sense now.
Craig, 1630488660
I'm the same, love the 2+1 on my small wave grovellers and usual shorty.
I'm guessing 1+2 makes the transition from rail to rail smoother in bigger surf, or feel that way for the surfer? Not sure though. On my mid-length single-fin sometimes in bigger surf there's some bite at times if it's a late drop (sliding before the fin fully engages and bites) or sudden change in movement, and this might smooth it? Guessing Stu will know better.
Craig, 1630488900
I love quads in fast, down the line, hollow waves that have tons of wall and power to work with. Not so much in shorter, sucky, bowly waves owing to them wanting to not go more vertical as Stu's pointed out. Also as others have said, the quad puts you out way more in front of the face so you have to read a bit ahead of the wave.
I only surf thrusters in bigger, more powerful surf like 5-6ft upwards on the East Coast and SA/Vicco/Indo surf. Otherwise I'll be on a 2+1 or twinny in East Coast waves. And get the single out if it's tiny peelers or a bit fuller and fatter but long-lined.
dandandan, 1630489495
Great article Stu. It's funny how one day you just click with a fin set up. For years I rode nothing but a twinnie. And for another year or so after that it was a widowmaker set up. It's been quads for the last 5 or 6 years now and I cant imagine shifting that up now. I ride singles on fun boards and logs, but I only really ride those when I'm dicking around. Reading this helps me understand why my surfing is gravitated towards the quad set up.
alan.mcmillan, 1630491408
Great read I ride a lot of different fin configurations and this explains a lot of the questions I have the Single plus stabilises is still a favourite for everyday. Not what the hipsters what to hear but great control and drive.
jimbrown, 1630493690
Fantastic Stu, very clearly explained. Many thanks, looking forward to the rest of the series
Ape Anonymous, 1630500299
Da Claw... drag factor.... only for big hollow waves....??? I... ah... errr... hhhhhhh.... nah, I'm just gonna leave this one alone. Tom, thanks for teaching some of us how to make em' so we never have to ride anything else again.
sbsb, 1630500299
Great metaphors and a really instructive article, thank you!
Spuddups, 1630525674
I'm a big fan of quads. About 75% of the time I'm on one. I've tried four fins the same size and also two smaller trailing fins. Four fins the same size seem to work for me. That's the beauty of surfboard design these days: pretty much anything goes. It's just a matter of trying a number of different designs and figuring out what works for you.
stunet, 1630529624
Ha ha...I had a bet with myself that AA would appear in the comments disparaging my Claw comments.
And whaddya know...I won!
As much as possible I tried to steer away from personal, subjective experience, and as as far as I can see, the Claw, while undoubtedly being a design of merit, performs best in bigger, hollower waves.
stunet, 1630530738
Alright, it's been up less than 24 hrs and the first correction is in.
Along with Winton and McKee, Brazilian shaper Ricardo Bocao has a legit claim as creating the first quad.
Check shot 3 for his first ever quads, photo taken in Hawaii, 1981.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwdCHg1FOmp/?fbclid=IwAR2XrPk_zTuaierIOdux66Ww9xUH79ajBV300eZ0d0wgmqZ6zqXOq5WL3b4
Correction supplied by Julio Adler who, along with Joao Valente, is currently writing a bilingual book on Bocao.
stunet, 1630531300
I'm the same, ride them all the time, can't give up the feeling, however I really try to force them away from their natural horizontal line. For me, that begins with taking off straight down the face, rather than across it, and setting up the flow from the start of the wave.
indo-dreaming, 1630531329
I ride quads 99% of the time, but i kind of have a love hate thing with them, as i dont think they go as good top to bottom, but they are just so fast and loose, when i jump back on a thruster it just feels like im dragging a clump of seaweed as now they feel so slow and stiff to me.
In a weird way i almost regret trying quads, ive tried to ween myself off them and go back to to thrusters as feel like im maybe ruining or holding back my surfing, not surfing in the pocket as much etc, but they are just so hard to give up.
indo-dreaming, 1630531832
Yeah 100% you really have to think about the way you are surfing and lines you are drawing.
Other negative is you can tend to do more flicky type turns rather than drawn out turns, also at times i find myself just loosing control even on cutback as have to much speed or slide, but the thing is when you do make those types of turns they do feel amazing.
I think you have summed it up with, its about the "feeling" you get addicted to that fast loose feeling.
atticus, 1630532793
Great article. Most of know how various boards (twins, singles, thrusters) ride, but not why, and you've attempted to explain that.
I'm reminded of my first board, a 5'8" San Juan single fin that was described as "versatile" because it had a long finbox in it.
udo, 1630534231
Some 80s USA Quads - The Skipp Quad layout be a wild ride [slide] eh Stu
https://kristopher-tom.squarespace.com/the-vintage-surfboard/tag/jim+phillips+surfboards
https://thevintagesurfboard.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/1980s-quad-fin-surfing-hawaii-surfboard/
fuhrious, 1630535083
Great writing again Stu. Indo I’ve been riding Two Fins only for the last twenty years. What really keeps me on this path is I don’t think about how I’m surfing I just love the feeling that this set up provides. At my age I think it’s important to want to go surfing and the Two Fins gets me out there every time.
wingnut2443, 1630535325
What about the 6 fin set up?
https://ibb.co/JzP1NHN
udo, 1630535510
Sikzer
http://ghettojuice.wikidot.com/blog:sickzer
Ape Anonymous, 1630535994
Had the feeling it was a trap! Well played, Stu.
P.S. I thought the article was really well written, professional.
wingnut2443, 1630536002
Indo, and Stu ... what quad layout are you using? McKee or more rail centric?
Have you tried both?
And.
What fins set-ups are you using?
Design impact of no centre fin is impossible to overcome, however, IMHE, changing fin placement and fins can bring both the 'free flow' and 'go cart' cornering with more traditional vertical 'squirt'. Rear fins more centred aka McKee with a balanced set of fins ... the old k2.1 quad (aka FCSII 'reactor') and the Shapers 'spectrum' AM being my go too after hours of R&D (aka trial and error).
Hall of Lame, 1630539808
Thanks guys
The subtleties of board design will remain a mystery.
I did not consider your explanation of the bite aspect on a drop Craig. The smoothing makes sense.
Has anyone seen the set up (big middle fin small side fins) on a shortboard? I am guessing the longer board is creating much of the forward momentum and therefore no real need for constant turns off big side fins.
I also realise that greatly reduced working hours are leading me to pursue unimportant but nonetheless intriguing questions.
surfstarved, 1630543254
Not that it matters either way, but I've always thought it was better expressed as 1+2, because it's the big single centre fin in the starring role, while the side-bites are just playing bit parts.
In my reasonably humble opinion, 2+1 better describes a twin set-up with a smaller stabiliser in the middle.
stunet, 1630543861
A 2+1 set up....or 1+2 for Surf Starved (see below)...allows a greater range of arcs then a single fin, and also aids reaction time.
Any time you take a fin off the centreline, there'll be a kick in responsiveness, and though sidebiters are small they help initiate any turn off that edge.
Hall of Lame, 1630544955
Thanks Stu
Nice clear explanation.
I am assuming a similar reasoning behind bonzer set up also.
stunet, 1630546192
You know, the only Bonzer I've ridden had the runners a long way forward and the distance between them was fairly narrow too.
If the fins of a Thruster are set in an equilateral triangle (or close to it), these fins were more like an extremely stretched isosceles triangle. They offered no extra response, and it left me ambivalent about the whole design.
Without knowing for sure, I'd suspect the best Bonzer layout would have the fins as close to equilateral as possible, and three fins not five.
Then again, Bonzer aficionados may be chasing a different feeling altogether.
memlasurf, 1630547046
Craig I have given up on thrusters as after over 30 years of surfing them it was time for a change and went back to my original love/hate of twinnies (as opposed to pure hate for singles). After returning to riding fast motorcycles dirt and road, I got hooked on the instant speed and acceleration and pumping all the time gets tiresome. Also age is catching up and couldn't care what I looked like as long as I can do some big flat out sweeping turns on larger waves. The modern twinnies are great at this, don't spin out and go left and so are quads. They go vertical too. Give the rear fin the flick - go nude with just the two!
stunet, 1630548213
Sure did. The '97 Konica Skins at Sandon on a Wayne Cleggett six fin.
Captainsurf, 1630552195
One man's...er, person's...drag is another person's lift (with drag penalties)
Captainsurf, 1630552885
Bonzers are bunk.
Rod Cleland, 1630554275
1981 Stubbies contest at Burleigh was the first time Simon unveiled the Thruster in a heat against Maurice Cole in 1ft Burleigh and the Thruster was first ridden at The Alley rights at Narrabeen. The back centre fin was meant to be bigger than the others but a mistake was made and the fin hung off the back end of the board so had to be sanded back making it the same size as the others all of equal size. Hence The Thruster! - This from an Interview we did with Simon in 2017.
velocityjohnno, 1630556131
Good point about the original larger rear fin. We have a 1981 Energy thruster in the Caviar Collection at home, and one further important point is the thickness of the fins. Our board has 3/8 thick fins on the side and a whole 1/2 thick rear fin! (Compare to todays fins, what, 8mm to 9mm for a finbox, fins themselves thinner)
These fins hold like you won't believe. You can take off under lips and they just hold and make it, where a more modern board will be thrown around.
So yeah, I like my thruster fins thicc
velocityjohnno, 1630556257
I'll get my terminology in line with everyone below - I am describing a '1+2' above. Probably my favourite setup, it was working a treat this morning.
velocityjohnno, 1630556415
Hall of Lame, "Has anyone seen the set up (big middle fin small side fins) on a shortboard?"
Try Dave Parmenter's Widow Maker.
Hall of Lame, 1630558038
Interesting stuff thanks velocityjohnno - have you ridden one?
indo-dreaming, 1630567614
Just standard close to rail type set up, but id really like to try the McKee set up, seems in theory best of both worlds of quad and thruster.
Fins vary, but always slightly bigger at front generally 50/50 foil for rears.
I do find with quads, fins make a huge difference and sometimes i really need to try a few different sets, especially with wide tail grovel type quad boards.
And the nubster thing, given it a go in a few boards, the whole theory of providing that little bit of central thruster thing in the mix sounds great especially coming from Kelly, but i really dont know if it adds anything positive, to me it just feels like some drag is added and damn they are hard to sometimes get back out.
seaslug, 1630579332
Totally agree ID, with quads the right fins make all the difference between a dog or ripper
Spuddups, 1630611818
It's super interesting reading about different people's takes on quads. I think where they really differ from thrusters is that there is no real settled configuration for a quad; as opposed to thrusters which have been almost unchanged since 1981.
I don't know what I'm doing differently but I've always found that quads go better off the top than thrusters. Where a thruster can get bogged in the lip the quad brings the tail round and sends me on my merry way back down the face. I've also found they come off the bottom well on my backhand.
I am riding four fins the same size and profile. Could be something to try out.
indo-dreaming, 1630618625
Not sure about off the top.
But 100% agree about backhand, they go great off the bottom on your backhand, but i find you have to really nurse them through turns otherwise you can slide out.
I dont think ive ever used the exact same size fins front and rear might have to give it a go.
lostdoggy, 1630619059
McKee position quads I've surfed felt like a fast thruster, great off top and bottom, never slid out.
I used normal thruster fronts and gx rears.
udo, 1630620046
https://www.instagram.com/p/CR4jx3ond2X/
udo, 1630622028
A early Winton Quad
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKZm4k9Aehr/
I focus, 1630633931
Just finished making my 1st board, when I got to the fin placement I always assumed minor differences to location, cant, toe in etc.
So measured up the boards I liked most and went fu(k!
The difference between them was relativity huge particularly location, did my head in.
Ended up going pretty much stock but will never look at fins the same again.
And then there was the rails...
sideshow, 1630708951
Yeah I dunno about that. A Brazilian providing a "correction" to claim that another Brazilian was first! I think you might have got sucked in by overzealous nationalism.
JBean53, 1630709128
Back in about '63 boards were made for "the pipeline" with two fins. They were the old "D" fin style. The idea was that if you popped one fin on a steep turn you still had one left.
Peters Ice cream company even brought out a "Pipeline" ice block. It had two sticks.
thermalben, 1630709460
Not mistaking that for the Twin Pole, are you?
[img]https://imgur.com/cdAi4ae.jpg[/img]
https://www.change.org/p/peters-ice-cream-bring-back-the-twin-pole
Also, not to be confused with the Toucan, the Smurfee or the Two-in-one.
[img]https://imgur.com/VtzH91I.jpg[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/ozTvMtF.jpg[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/4VNX8yU.jpg[/img]
JBean53, 1630710738
Thanks for the pics thermalben.
The "Pipeline" ice block was pre decimal currency, circa 1963 and pre-dated these. It was "Peters" marketing at the height of the early '60s surfing craze.
stunet, 1630710841
Sounds like your nationalism is under threat?
Anyway, there are photos to back up the claim.
I was always semi-aware of Bocao's pioneering work on quads but never quite sure of the timeline. Irrespective of nationality, he deserves to be included in the mix.
Robwilliams, 1630715023
I am wondering in regards to thruster layout, when the term spread is used in conjunction to sweet spot of a board. The distances between tail fin or fins and thrusters is often explained and the effect. But what are the noticeable differences of moving thruster fins in the configuration in from standard positioning from outside rail narrowing the spread rather than lengthening it. Side fins move inwards from rail. More drive with out moving rear fin back? Or reduced responsiveness that it becomes harder to initiate turn. 1inch to inch and a 1/4 is what i have mainly found from rail. Have had noticeable differences with toe and lengthen or shortening fins, moving cluster up or back until sweet spot is found. i guess my question is lengthening or shortening thruster spread vs moving thruster placement inward from rail.
udo, 1630715502
No pics in existence of them D - twins
Do you have anymore info on them ?
udo, 1630715676
Wingnut had a real good page re toe cant etc... Wingy ?
Robwilliams, 1630717130
thruster placement on that glen winton looks about 2inches inward from rail. Width between front fins is often given in regards to board length in some charts. I like the thruster feeling so have been altering this layout in regards to lengthening or shortening fin spread in referencing charts. Mainly mc fee. I understand that as fins move closer to stringer the less toe they have but what is the effect of increased rail on outside of thruster fins in regards to performance.
Garden Gnome, 1630719453
Love the article, a good read. Love the comments too. Everyone has a favourite fin set up and I reckon it is great to revisit old favourites. At risk of stirring the pot, I wonder if there are others like me who call the 'sidebites' on a 1 plus 2 'training wheels'? Apologies in advance for any offence caused! Just for the record I do have a favourite mal that does work nicely with the training wheels attached.
thermalben, 1630720056
How about this one? Though it's more like a ZooperDooper (no sticks).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=logvIFvs_KM
JBean53, 1630721405
Couldn't find the ad although the "Pipeline Pete" above rings a bell. The one I recall was a "twin pole" ice block and it was based on the twin D fin board, maybe Peters as they were Streets main competitor. The ad seems similar. Maybe something in Trove.
Fliplid, 1630721713
A few years ago I read an article by Bob McTavish about his idea of setting the front fins to suit foot size, regardless of tail width and doing away with the standard 1' to 1 1/4" off the rail. Quads were a bit narrower.
Don't know if he stuck with the idea but at the time he said all the feedback was positive.
sideshow, 1630725038
Fair enough.
dlk92, 1630739153
Wholeheartedly agree with you surfstarved! Might be pissing into the wind on this one but glad to know someone thinks the same!
udo, 1630746627
These Groms are onto it
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhxi4Q8n9Ka/
indo-dreaming, 1630746766
God those bring back some memories, i swear there was a double rocket one but I cant find it?
I found some of my fav singles though that i hadn't seen since the 80's :D
[img]https://i.imgur.com/5F94Bf4.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/iWhacwK.jpg[/img]
Max Wax, 1630756649
Hey Ape, do you or anyone on swellnet know where I could find a Tom Hoye claw for sale? 8'0-10'6 preferably, also interested in 6'0s upwards and thrusters/quad setups too.
Patrick, 1630759415
https://m.facebook.com/groups/2258502707708696/permalink/3688179284741024/?fs=1&focus_composer=0&m_entstream_source=feed_mobile
indo-dreaming, 1630760482
Ha ha yeah they are classic
indo-dreaming, 1630760557
That's wild, any feedback or reviews?
Max Wax, 1630761518
Hey ID hope all is good with you, surely they are the same grommets that tried to flog me coconuts everyday a few years back ;)
Patrick, 1630765054
All I know about it is what's on that fb post.
wingnut2443, 1630795137
Yes, I've been down that rabbit hole, once or twice.
wingnut2443, 1630795702
???
I'll have to go looking...
Robwilliams, 1630798263
2000 space Odyssey concept?
udo, 1630798373
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-jEBuyHBMP/
udo, 1630798742
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfhzgSyBOuG/
indo-dreaming, 1630804980
Hi Max, yeah probably its from a few years back and i do remember the one on the right always selling conconuts.
BTW. They generally have better boards now, but they only turn up for a surf now and then, as most end up going to school in Tello or Nias as get older.
evosurfer, 1630805789
Fins in MHO are the last frontier of surfboard design so many surfers I talk to
put little or no reference to their fins. Just about every length, width, rocker, rail
design, concave, convex and every other thing imaginable has been created and tested. Ive had boards that have been very ordinary but persist in changing fins sometimes up to 5 or 6 times until im happy with its feel and performance resulting in really great boards. I compare them to running ordinary or worn race tyres then putting on new tyres the enhanced performance is phenomenal.
Fins are the future.
n!ck, 1630806459
Agreed @surfstarved… Labelling 2+1 for a bigger centre fin (the hero) with smaller side bites (the support team) seems totally counter intuitive. 1+2 makes way more sense imho when describing this fin setup.
udo, 1630806816
Agree 100% Evo
Like driving on a Bob Jane all rounder then changing to a set Michelins or similiar
Robo, 1630813822
Shocking news. Surfer killed at shelly's Emerald Beach this morning.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-05/shark-attack-near-coffs-harbour/100435406
morg, 1630985630
Sad news about the surfer. Condolences to his family.
This is a great article. It would be interesting if a few shapers could talk a bit more about how the fin placement of the various multi-fin configurations affects performance and the feel when you surf. I always assume that there must be a compromise in optimal fin placement or tail rocker etc on surfboards that have plugs to allow thruster and quad setups. Similarly I’ve had a couple of quads where the front fins are about a cm further forward than on thrusters.
Back in the late 90’s I bought a six fin 6’6” swallow tail and a five fin 6’8” (?) area pin tail surfboards in Maui. Both boards had same size smallish fins on each board. They seemed to work when I was over there but not at home on east coast oz. The five finner didn’t like turning and I ended up using the the six finner kiteboarding.
Craig, 1630988660
Yep, agree as well.
desoutc, 1631065604
AA, was hoping to catch you on here.
Had a couple boards on order with Tom before he passed: a 6'0 Da Claw and an updated version of a '78 singley (possibly the best board I've ever owned) my mate scored on the secondhand rack at Paul Gravelle's shop.
Have an 8'3 Da Claw that goes unreal, would love to try and find something around the 6ish foot mark if you have anything you want to let go, or know of someone who might.
PS. Was that your green and gold eight footer Tom finished a few months ago? He mentioned something about sending it over this side of the country. Looked unreal.
udo, 1631088362
https://www.instagram.com/p/CPBsZVCnroW/
Max Wax, 1631091865
Reckon Domi would be ripping by now!
udo, 1631687931
https://www.instagram.com/p/CN69sGnnXxJ/
Patrick, 1631727683
Thanks Udo, great listen.
Blowin, 1632122156
Great article. After decades of surfing I still found it very informative.
Simple thruster bloke myself. Just messing about with differing thruster fins does my head in.
etarip, 1632219022
Great article. I’ve always trended toward thrusters as the norm, occasionally shifting up to quads when its a bit bigger. Recently been running a 2+1 on my shorter/fatter groveller and really enjoying the extra looseness with an extra bit of control. Now I have a better idea of why. Thanks Stu