blindboy, Tue 03 May 2016 18:07

Be afraid........very afraid. God fuck Amerika

Sheepdog, Tue 03 May 2016 18:48

Was hoping old Bernie was gonna get up..... Frump, Dildo hater Ted, or Hilarious..... What a choice......
But hey.... We've got our own problems....

velocityjohnno, Tue 03 May 2016 19:25

Current sportsbet is Hillary 1.28, Trump 4

so business as usual post election

freeride76, Tue 03 May 2016 19:37

good article, thanks BB

zenagain, Tue 03 May 2016 20:18

Excellent article.

tonybarber, Wed 04 May 2016 09:57

Interesting article BB but does it really apply today. Firstly the American political show ain't over yet. Importantly the democracies in the world today do not follow exactly the model as proposed by Pluto. It seems to be clear that America does have a few failings in its constitution which its forefathers did not foresee.

Sheepdog, Wed 04 May 2016 10:49

It's over Tony... Breaking news!! Trump is nominee!!!! Cruz suspends campaign!!

tonybarber, Wed 04 May 2016 11:15

Yeah, but there is Hillary ...?

stunet, Wed 04 May 2016 11:43

[quote=tonybarber]Yeah, but there is Hillary ...?[/quote]

Eh? She's Democrat TB.

tonybarber, Wed 04 May 2016 14:58

Understood but this whole American thing ain't over .... Bloody interesting .

indo-dreaming, Wed 04 May 2016 15:01

Its only natural that we whinge about politics in Australia but really our system is better than most.

Imagine a system where you have dynasty's like the Bush's and Clinton's and people like Arnold schwarzenegger and Donald trump, lets hope Clive Palmer is the last that we see of wanna be business man or celebrity politicians.

Indonesia is a similar deal Jokowi is about the only Indonesian president doesn't come from a political elite family or have a military background.

floyd, Wed 04 May 2016 15:05

Trump proves beyond any doubt the conservative narrative is dead.

Is that the best they can produce? Cruz, the Senator that held America to fiscal default 2 years ago isn't looney enough for the looney right so they go with a single brain celled self serving failed capitalist as their answer.

If, and its still a big if, Trump gets the nomination the republicans will implode .... which in the long term is the best thing that can happen for moderate conservatives in the USA. Let the looney right form their own (tea) party and let the republicans reclaim the central right of American politics.

Same goes for Oz. Last night's budget was a disgrace and a total arse suck to the conservative right of the liberals and the IPA. The yanks are a little ahead of us but the right here have no direction nor narrative ...... the AU economy growing? bullwinkle it is except for negatively gearing property in Sydney and Melbourne.

Anyone else hear Turnbull on Melbourne radio this morning suggesting parents should help buy their kids a house ...... bugger me, now that's a nation building policy right there.

Sheepdog, Wed 04 May 2016 16:55

Indo... I don't know what is worse, the business man (Palmer) or the puppets of the business men (coalition).. He did save Australia from the 2014 budget... So I'll give him that..... I also think he has been crucified... Both sides want the status quo.....
This is also where Trump has filled the void.... People are nearly willing to vote in a groundhog, a boy scout, even an inanimate carbon rod, anything to send a clear message to both sides that "we've had enough"....

blindboy, Wed 04 May 2016 17:57

For Australia the real issue with Trump, regardless of the final outcome of the Presidential election, is whether we wake up to the fact that we can no longer consider the US to be a rational ally. The trend since WW2 has been for ever more aggressive and short sighted foreign policy resulting in the complete destabilisation of the Middle East accompanied by indiscriminate arms sales to maximise the associated casualties. They have also thoroughly undermined the Geneva convention through their use of torture and the detention of non-combatants without trial.
Trump's rise is yet another indication of the failure of their plutocratic political system to deliver rational domestic policies. Consider gun crime, the chronic abuses rife through their "justice" system, the massive incarceration rates of the poor and disadvantaged, the collapse of opportunity for working class, the slave labour wage rates, the almost complete absence of social security. This is a sick society. We should avoid further infection!

AndyM, Wed 04 May 2016 18:50

"whether we wake up to the fact that we can no longer consider the US to be a rational ally"

The cat's been out of the bag for a long time BB, certainly since the ominous "you're either with us or you're against us" line about 15 years ago, and IMO for decades before that.

Doesn't make any difference, Australia is totally under the thumb of the U.S. and nothing serious happens in Oz without the nod of approval from the U.S.

If we tried to fully break away, the best that would happen would be The Dismissal Part II and the worst case scenario, depending on the context, could be really ugly.

Sheepdog, Wed 04 May 2016 19:04

[quote=blindboy]For Australia the real issue with Trump, regardless of the final outcome of the Presidential election, is whether we wake up to the fact that we can no longer consider the US to be a rational ally. The trend since WW2 has been for ever more aggressive and short sighted foreign policy resulting in the complete destabilisation of the Middle East accompanied by indiscriminate arms sales to maximise the associated casualties. They have also thoroughly undermined the Geneva convention through their use of torture and the detention of non-combatants without trial.
Trump's rise is yet another indication of the failure of their plutocratic political system to deliver rational domestic policies. Consider gun crime, the chronic abuses rife through their "justice" system, the massive incarceration rates of the poor and disadvantaged, the collapse of opportunity for working class, the slave labour wage rates, the almost complete absence of social security. This is a sick society. We should avoid further infection![/quote]

Your above list is the EXACT reason Trump is so popular..... Did you see his speech today?

Sheepdog, Wed 04 May 2016 19:05

I actually think Trump (if elected) will consider Australia a friend... Whether thats a good thing is debatable lol

velocityjohnno, Wed 04 May 2016 19:37

I did read an article where Trump basically said he'd go through State Dept or whatever their foreign office is, and clean it out. So that means the career diplomats and apparatchiks responsible for US positions on 80's oil crash, Iran-Iraq war, Gulf War I, funding opponents to Soviets in Afghanistan, mujahideen, bombing of Serbia, invasion of Afghanistan, invasion of Iraq, Georgia, Arab spring, removal of Gadaffi and resultant chaos, colour revolution in Ukraine, attempt to oust Assad - did I miss anything? - well, anyway the dudes with views on these happenings are gone.

Breath of fresh air.

Nevertheless, current major strategy is not going to change (eg, TPP, Pivot to Asia) no matter who is president.

mk1, Wed 04 May 2016 19:48

Look at that list VJ! Trump might actually be better than a party Republican candidate like cruz considering the shit sandwich!!

AndyM, Wed 04 May 2016 19:54

[quote=velocityjohnno]I did read an article where Trump basically said he'd go through State Dept or whatever their foreign office is, and clean it out. So that means the career diplomats and apparatchiks responsible for US positions on 80's oil crash, Iran-Iraq war, Gulf War I, funding opponents to Soviets in Afghanistan, mujahideen, bombing of Serbia, invasion of Afghanistan, invasion of Iraq, Georgia, Arab spring, removal of Gadaffi and resultant chaos, colour revolution in Ukraine, attempt to oust Assad - did I miss anything? - well, anyway the dudes with views on these happenings are gone.

Breath of fresh air.

Nevertheless, current major strategy is not going to change (eg, TPP, Pivot to Asia) no matter who is president.[/quote]

Trump wouldn't have a hope in hell of putting a broom through the status quo. He's full of wind.

talkingturkey, Thu 05 May 2016 14:48



stunet, Thu 05 May 2016 14:50

ha ha ha...

floyd, Thu 05 May 2016 15:14

oh you are starting a nasty class war all overall again turks, now where's my G&T?

talkingturkey, Thu 05 May 2016 15:24

Class? In Australia? What is this 'class' you speak of?

The C word!

"According to the new mores, any mention of structural social inequality is tantamount to a declaration of class warfare. Concerns about the distribution of wealth, education and health are difficult to raise in a public forum without needing to beat off the ghost of Stalin. The only form of political correctness that the right will tolerate is the careful elision of class from public discourse, and this troubling discretion has become mainstream. It constitutes an ideological triumph for conservatives that even they must marvel at. Having uttered the c-word in polite company, I felt, for a moment, as if I’d shat in the municipal pool."

floyd, Thu 05 May 2016 16:03

The conservatives can attack payments for: health; education; welfare; for the NDIS; for remote Aboriginal communities; for foreign aid; or any other program to help low income families or the average jock and its called "living within our means" "good economic management" "an economic plan" "the emerging economy" .... blah blah ...........

oh but if you dare suggest we need a Royal Commission into the corrupt behaviour of our banks or suggest the government should tackle negative gearing tax avoidance well thats class warfare right there ....


talkingturkey, Thu 05 May 2016 18:01

“There's class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.” (2006)


(And I'm referring here to Warren not Jimmy)

Shatner'sBassoon, Mon 09 May 2016 18:23

An interesting take on Trump and Hillary from John Pilger. Scary.

Sheepdog, Mon 09 May 2016 19:05

Good article, Shats.. A vote for Clinton is a vote for the status quo.... And people are sick of it.... Love him or hate him, Trump certainly has made things interesting.

happyasS, Mon 09 May 2016 21:52

[quote=Shatner'sBassoon]An interesting take on Trump and Hillary from John Pilger. Scary.[/quote]

I don't deny the premise of the title. but what a wonderful fictional piece by John.

AndyM, Tue 10 May 2016 00:36

Can you be more specific Happy?

Which bit/s by Pilger do you see as fiction?

sypkan, Tue 10 May 2016 07:45

excellent article

finally people with credibility are saying the once un-sayable

trump is the revolution we've all been hoping for, the pompous upper classes of the left just have to get over themselves and realise they have more in common with the great unwashed...more common interests anyway

we really shouldn't have expected any decent leadership from the bourgeois left, they're too comfortable enjoying their self indulgence to have any fire in their belly's

from the article

A generation ago, a post-modern cult now known as “identity politics” stopped many intelligent, liberal-minded people examining the causes and individuals they supported – such as the fakery of Obama and Clinton; such as bogus progressive movements like Syriza in Greece, which betrayed the people of that country and allied with their enemies.

Self-absorption, a kind of “me-ism”, became the new zeitgeist in privileged western societies and signalled the demise of great collective movements against war, social injustice, inequality, racism and sexism.

identity politics only served to tear those with common interests apart, giving the neo-liberal globalisation experiment free reign, supported by the political class from both sides.

classic devide and conquer.

if one was a conspiracy theorist you'd say it was all part of a msster plan

muslim academics have said despite the propoganda trump is actually the safest candidate as he has said he'll stop the meddling in the middle east.

ANY amercan candidate willing to say that, while questioning the dodgy dealings with saudi arabia is a good thing. not to mention questioning the TPP. bernie has said the same things but unfortunately he can't get any traction with the establishment media manipulation, trump stormed through it, they literally couldn't stop him!

he's also talking about ' the 28 pages', once the domain of nut cases, even the new yorker had an article on it, there's some big shit that's about to blow, one way ot another

stunet, Tue 10 May 2016 08:44

Yeah, I don't know. It's easy for Trump to make a statement about US isolationism but the price of that will be the loss of US exceptionalism. If America retreats from the world they relinquish their primacy and, honestly, can anyone see that happening? Really...? A century of playing the global cop and they'll cede the ground to China? 

And though it's distasteful, US primacy provides stability, not for everyone of course but for the greater part of the developed world this is true. China is on the ascendancy, they have their political house in order, and they're forging alliances across the world. African nations in particular are huge beneficiaries of Chinese money.

If Trump's vision were to come true the global order will get a complete Realpolitik reshuffle, and though I don't agree with much that the US does the alternative is pretty damn daunting.

sypkan, Tue 10 May 2016 09:04

revolutions are rarely neat affairs

and their leaders are rarely as suave as obama (unfortunately)

I think that article is a little harsh on obama, I think with another four years he could sort this mess out in a civil manner, but that ain't gonna happen, and the replacement candidates (on both sides) are either lame and dangerous or radical and....

none of them are up to it, besides bernie, but Americans are too paranoid of socialism to vote him in.

the system needs rebooting, it's fucked

Sheepdog, Tue 10 May 2016 10:26

Stu writes; " China is on the ascendancy, they have their political house in order, and they're forging alliances across the world. African nations in particular are huge beneficiaries of Chinese money."

It was that long ago when everyone was saying the exact same thing about Japan... Things can move pretty quick in this .com free trade world.... It aint the same.... Super powers and empires were once formed over decades, centuries even.... And it often took longer for them to crumble.... Not any more.... Things can turn pretty quickly..

AndyM, Tue 10 May 2016 11:07


Yeah, I don't know. It's easy for Trump to make a statement about US isolationism but the price of that will be the loss of US exceptionalism. If America retreats from the world they relinquish their primacy and, honestly, can anyone see that happening? Really...? A century of playing the global cop and they'll cede the ground to China? 

And though it's distasteful, US primacy provides stability, not for everyone of course but for the greater part of the developed world this is true. China is on the ascendancy, they have their political house in order, and they're forging alliances across the world. African nations in particular are huge beneficiaries of Chinese money.

If Trump's vision were to come true the global order will get a complete Realpolitik reshuffle, and though I don't agree with much that the US does the alternative is pretty damn daunting.


Fair comment Stu, there's no way Trump will be allowed to pursue isolationist policies, the decision wouldn't be his to make anyway.
Imagine the amount of money invested in the U.S. and its imperialist adventures - it's not going to change in a hurry.
As for the U.S. providing stability, it would be interesting to see what percentage of the world's population has been destabilised by U.S. policy in the past 50 years - large parts of South and Central America, South East Asia, middle Asia, Middle East etc.
A lot of these places are probably better off with U.S.-forced stability (on American terms for American benefit) but it's debatable and a topic for someone with more knowledge than me.

tim foilat, Tue 10 May 2016 13:04

AndyM, Tue 10 May 2016 13:45

[quote=tim foilat][/quote]

Cheers Tim.
Although the picture painted of Hilary Clinton is a bit over the top, the article still gets to the core of U.S. policy and political machinations.

sypkan, Tue 10 May 2016 16:11

a trump just got voted in (in the phillipines)

he's got some pragmatic ideas about China's territory consolidation. our region is about to get real interesting

Sheepdog, Tue 10 May 2016 16:15

[quote=sypkan]a trump just got voted in (in the phillipines)

he's got some pragmatic ideas about China's territory consolidation. our region is about to get real interesting[/quote]


chook, Tue 10 May 2016 16:39

i'd say not much will change in the philipines. he won't do anything at all...other than amass an enormous amount of money and have a few squabbles with some other people who want a cut of the money.

happyasS, Tue 10 May 2016 19:00

[quote=AndyM]Can you be more specific Happy?

Which bit/s by Pilger do you see as fiction?[/quote]

US policy to protect Israel by whatever means necessary from an Iranian attack is bi-partisan. to single out hillary's comments on "obliterating" iran is disingenuous towards John's argument. yes her old comments were out of line, and unnecessarily aggressive. but don't be fooled for one minute that republicans wont react in the same manner should iran attack Israel, or indeed iran defend itself from an Israel attack.

next, look up talisman sabre 2015. then convince yourself whether this is relevant in a Hillary vs Trump war mongering comparison let alone a party comparison. just because he says so? how did he find out about this secrete Chinese agenda? its 'highly secret' according to him. that's laughable in my opinion and of course just wrong. what about all the other talisman sabres and other joint exercises of past years conducted bi-partisan?

now try to work out what John is suggesting when he starts talking about Obama deportation's knowing what we know about Trumps stance in his vocal parade. I really didn't understand his argument here, but he creatively words things so its sounds impressive.

look up US wars, and decide if his comments are fair and relevant. there's truth in his argument but lets not forget wars under the republicans including non-sanctioned attacks and the whole WMD thing. yeah Clinton talked about WMD too, but Bush was the president who made wide sweeping statements that proved incorrect.

the article is not very interesting and tells a good story about US global force. but as always, its as much about what you don't write as what you do. and what any of it has to do with the title is beyond me.

doesn't trump stand for a much larger military? skeptical all round.

blindboy, Tue 10 May 2016 19:10

Pilger may be guilty of over-statement but most media commentators are guilty of wilful ignorance on these issues. As I said at the start the US is an unreliable and increasingly dangerous ally but despite all our Aussie Aussie Aussie bravado and pathetic Anzackery, Australia has never had the courage to stand on its own. We have some sort of inferiority complex that saw us scurry from John Bull to Uncle Sam during WW2 and cling to his increasingly bedraggled coat tails ever since.

tonybarber, Tue 10 May 2016 20:18

Time to listen to Noni Hazelhursts speech at the Logies. Yes, the media needs to be taken to task. The Pilger article is typical.

theween, Wed 11 May 2016 19:04

Amazing how critical we are of the yanks - without their support in WW2 we'd now be speaking Japanese. Seems 'blindboy' is an appropriate nickname for someone in denial.

blindboy, Wed 11 May 2016 19:17

[quote=theween]Amazing how critical we are of the yanks - without their support in WW2 we'd now be speaking Japanese. Seems 'blindboy' is an appropriate nickname for someone in denial.[/quote]

Denial? Hardly, my father was liberated from a Japaness prisoner of war camp by US soldiers on the day all prisoners were to be killed. That was then, this is now. Seventy years is a long time in a culture and for at least the last 50 years the trend line in US culture has been down. Fossilised ideas of loyalty are a very poor guide to foreign policy. What's that old saying? Nations have no permanent allies, only permanent interests and US policy left Australia's best interests behind long ago.

happyasS, Wed 11 May 2016 19:51

should US and China tensions rise to the point of military action in the foreseeable future; there is no way Australia will side with China. historical ties, social ways, government....practically everything is more aligned with the US than China.

so AUS plays a careful game of being stuck in the middle. we want both benefits, chinas economy, and the US's security. and for now we get both. maybe not in the future though.

talkingturkey, Wed 11 May 2016 20:14

[quote=tonybarber]Time to listen to Noni Hazelhursts speech at the Logies.[/quote]

Comedy gold.

"I have a dream...yeah, nah"

velocityjohnno, Tue 07 Jun 2016 13:46

& overnight Associated Press crowned Hillary the democratic nomination (a day before final California primary! That will make Bernie fans happy...)
So sportsbet now Hillary 1.40 Trump 3.25... it's Hillary who will win, business as usual - and that means make sure you are following global geopolitics closely.

Sheepdog, Tue 07 Jun 2016 17:37

Was gonna put this in "tunes".... But this is a good enough home for it.... Not bad for a 32 year old song..

sypkan, Wed 08 Jun 2016 00:32

always loved that rifles song

hard to believe but this trump thing might actually happen, could be worth a bet at those odds. some polls now have him beating hilary, but bernie beating trump

I used to like clinton but now she just looks wrong whatever she's saying. and apparently a lot of americans agree, I personally wouldn't vote trump but many democrats are saying they'd rather vote for trump than hilary, she's on the nose

whatever happens Hilary should step aside, give bernie a go, he's the only one who can avoid the trump. Hilary is the dangerous one either way. but she's waited 8 years for 'her time' she's never gonna walk away now...unfortunately

"Last month the film star, who’s been a loud advocate of Bernie Sanders, was asked what she’d do if he failed to win the Democratic nomination and it came down to a choice between his rival and Trump. “I’m more afraid of Hillary Clinton’s war record and hawkishness than I am of building a wall,” Sarandon said. Earlier, she had suggested that, for the true leftist, there might be an upside to a victory for the Republican: “Some people feel Donald Trump will bring the revolution immediately.”"

chook, Wed 08 Jun 2016 10:29

it used to be thought that historical materialism was the weakest part of marx's writings. but since the GFC, it now appears to be the strongest, most reliable element. capitalism is eating itself, just as historical materialism predicts.
trump's presidency is destiny. no more feeble guiding of the ship of state, perpetuating a slow and steady decline. trump will bring on the great collapse of capitalism. he's the annointed one, the one to usher in the communist paradise!

Shatner'sBassoon, Wed 08 Jun 2016 11:29

"What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, is its own grave-diggers." - Karl Marx.

"Give me convenience or give me death!" - Jello Biafra.

"Consumers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chain-stores." - erm, me.

AndyM, Wed 08 Jun 2016 17:21

[quote=blindboy]The most perceptive piece yet written about him.[/quote]

Can't say I agree BB.

I think to start talking about Trump as a tyrant and also comparing him to dictators gives the position of president too much credit.

I would go so far as to say that IMO the presidential elections over there are just a dog and pony show while business as usual continues.
The article claims that " America is a breeding ground for tyranny" - I firmly believe that the U.S. has suffered from tyranny for decades now and it has little to do with elections.

Eisenhower (whom you would think would know a thing or two) is credited with the quote that we're all familiar with - "We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex".

Well that unwarranted influence has well and truly come to pass and it looks like it will continue regardless of which charismatic smooth talker (Obama) or loud mouth clown (guess who) is their figurehead.
I see that the main game of toppling and installing governments and going to war if necessary is still in progress and it has little to do with the guy supposedly at the top.

happyasS, Wed 08 Jun 2016 17:48

I remember discussing with several very well read Canadian friends when Obama first came to power. I made a few comments about 'hope' and 'future' and the like....I was greeted back with wry smiles and not much else. didn't think much of at the time, but looking back I think they were perhaps acknowledging my naivety in a polite kind of way.

while we're on the topic......

velocityjohnno, Wed 08 Jun 2016 18:20

Just a quick point fellas, what we have now is certainly not capitalism. To examine why you must look at both the structure of currency, its distinction from money, and examine who is in control of it. The entire Western world (and each successive country militarily rolled, displacing and killing so many) has (or soon gets) central banks. You must understand that a central bank is chapter 5 in Mr Marx's book "The Communist Manifesto". The rate at which the price of currency is determined - the interest rate - is centrally set, like many things in Soviet Russia. Let that sink in. The entire money system is centrally planned.

I'd argue that if interest rates were not set artificially low, post 'tech wreck' by Greenspan's Fed, there would not have been such capital misallocation that led to the US housing boom, and resultant subprime mortgage mess (think: "The Big Short", but the best film concerning this event is "Margin Call") What monster will the insanely low (and negative: 1/3 of Europe's government debt now features a negative yield) rates of 2008 onward birth?

If we had true Free Market Capitalism, the market would set the rate of interest; and a multitude of local markets would set varying (and higher!) rates of interest all across the globe as individual human actors weighed up risk and reward. It doesn't, and they don't.

Similarly, trade is not free. If it were, we could ship anything anywhere, with no restriction. Try importing certain Australian products into China, or Japan for example. It is all tightly regulated by central organisations; at the negotiating table planners compete to ensure favourable access. Any disputes are sent to a centralised regulatory body. That ain't capitalism.

For true capitalism, maybe examine trade 1815-1905ish, and its money system?

Shatner'sBassoon, Wed 08 Jun 2016 18:54

I've posted this book in its entirety before. Chapter three (pg 75) refers to the period 1865 - 1914. It has many echoes to our own time, including how it ultimately ended?!

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Jun 2016 11:34

[quote=Shatner'sBassoon]"What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, is its own grave-diggers." - Karl Marx.

"Give me convenience or give me death!" - Jello Biafra.

"Consumers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chain-stores." - erm, me.[/quote]

chook, Thu 09 Jun 2016 12:28

what we have is capitalism, pure and simple.
you seem to mistake capitalism -- an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production -- with free trade and free markets.

[quote=velocityjohnno]Just a quick point fellas, what we have now is certainly not capitalism. To examine why you must look at both the structure of currency, its distinction from money, and examine who is in control of it. The entire Western world (and each successive country militarily rolled, displacing and killing so many) has (or soon gets) central banks. You must understand that a central bank is chapter 5 in Mr Marx's book "The Communist Manifesto". The rate at which the price of currency is determined - the interest rate - is centrally set, like many things in Soviet Russia. Let that sink in. The entire money system is centrally planned.

I'd argue that if interest rates were not set artificially low, post 'tech wreck' by Greenspan's Fed, there would not have been such capital misallocation that led to the US housing boom, and resultant subprime mortgage mess (think: "The Big Short", but the best film concerning this event is "Margin Call") What monster will the insanely low (and negative: 1/3 of Europe's government debt now features a negative yield) rates of 2008 onward birth?

If we had true Free Market Capitalism, the market would set the rate of interest; and a multitude of local markets would set varying (and higher!) rates of interest all across the globe as individual human actors weighed up risk and reward. It doesn't, and they don't.

Similarly, trade is not free. If it were, we could ship anything anywhere, with no restriction. Try importing certain Australian products into China, or Japan for example. It is all tightly regulated by central organisations; at the negotiating table planners compete to ensure favourable access. Any disputes are sent to a centralised regulatory body. That ain't capitalism.

For true capitalism, maybe examine trade 1815-1905ish, and its money system?[/quote]

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Jun 2016 16:08



Oh, and don't forget to chuck in the environment itself yelling "ENOUGH!"

Boiling frog syndrome, anyone?

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Jun 2016 17:11

TRUMP! A man of these people!?

Check more of Sean Dunne's work here. All worthy.

velocityjohnno, Thu 09 Jun 2016 17:50

Actually chook I would be interested in your opinion on how capitalism eats itself, via the historical materialst perspective. Rather than these forums descend into name calling etc. I did briefly study Marx at Uni, although most of my perspective comes from the historical/financial field.

From what I can see, the amount of intervention done by govs and CBs (acting on a Keynesian playbook) has created an increasing amount of unintended consequences, which have been responded to with (dumbfoundingly) more of the same - things like QE, or Draghi's "whatever it takes"; resulting in the CB owning more and more of the bond market and increasingly, even stocks! The solution this year is to target negative rates, thus consuming capital itself. This is the only way I see "capitalism" dying - and central planning at its worst.

Nevertheless, I'd be interested to hear alternate takes on it. Many from many quarters are predicting the "end game" - financial collapse, jubilee, revolution, environment giving up (yes TT), end of easily accessible energy, one world GOV, fascism, feudalism returning... We do live in interesting times.

chook, Fri 10 Jun 2016 11:46

johhno. i don't have much to add. knowledge of marx is just undergraduate -- i was studying chinese history. on the face of it, china went from feudalism to communism without going through the capitalist phase. i wrote an essay on whether this volated historical materialism. but i can't remember any details.
all ethical and political courses at uni just ended in a shit fight. i lost interest. the only thing i know about political theory is that you should never give power to those that seek it.

velocityjohnno, Sat 18 Jun 2016 15:58

Cheers chook.

Trump has recently caused a furore around the origins of ISIS (it's not climate change!) For a presidential candidate to go there, ballsy


"That Trump gets this is little short of amazing, and yet truth often comes to us in unexpected ways. He may be an imperfect vessel – and that is surely an understatement – but he is absolutely correct in this instance: this administration and this President either “doesn’t get it, or he gets it better than anybody understands. It’s one or the other.”

The media and the Never Trumpers leaped on this statement and translated it into the old Obama-is-a-secret-Muslim trope, but that’s not what he was talking about. He was talking about the largely unknown history of our intervention in Syria, where Hillary Clinton was the jihadists’ best friend and benefactor. It was she who led the charge to “liberate” Syria, to arm the “moderate” head-choppers and do to that war-torn wreck of a country what she had done to Libya. Obama knows it: and so does the media. But their lips are sealed.

Fortunately, mine aren’t. "

discostu, Mon 31 Oct 2016 19:25

Where art thou oh bumboy? What has happened to that lying POS you support Shillary?

I don't see you! Where are you hiding?

Come on. Lets see you support her now in her time of need!

Lets look at some facts huh? I know you hate them. Typical left wing numpties hate facts because corruption coarses through their veins like Jack Daniels through a drunk.

Left the Ambassador of the US to die. Lied about the reason she did so.

Has had millions of dollars from foreign despots land in the Clinton Foundation accounts - which isn't legally registered incidentally. I know you don't have any legal skills. Use Dr Google! Even you could find this information.

Only 5.7% of donations from the Clinton Foundation go to charitable causes. Look it up!

WJC's bro was granted a gold exploration license in Haiti - never occurred before - but was par of the pay to play deal of the foundation in Haiti.

Clinton deleted more than 30 thousand e-mails that were subject to a subpoena. This is a jailable offence.

She has your smarts though. She deleted the e-mails at her end, not realising that she had sent them to others and so she her "intent" to lie is now obvious.

How deep is that hole you have dug for yourself? I cant wait to see your latest expose on facts. You hate facts. tehehehehhee

velocityjohnno, Mon 31 Oct 2016 19:43

Well, soon it will be what it will be. Odds still saying Hilary. FBI re-opened emails case.

This is worth posting and watching, Stu may appreciate the excellent investigative journalism so missing in today's world:

sypkan, Tue 01 Nov 2016 07:30

I'll try a different tactic to discopoo, because you know, we don't get on and stuff, and I actually kinda like blindboy, so...come on blindboy you can't start a thread, consistently bag trump then sit quiet while your girl gets smashed in the media (well maybe not smashed, more so, can no longer be obtusely ignored) , geez it appears even the guardian is trying to save face now, realising Clinton is indefensible... quite a development


While I may have appeared to support trump I can honestly say I would have never voted for him, I'd vote Jill stein. But with these latest revelations if I had to choose between the two, I reckon now, I would have to go with trump, the system, especially hers, is just too corrupted.

FFS now it looks like Clinton did actually "create ISIS", once a convenient statement, which did seem a bit of an exaggeration, not so now...

Come on blindboy, two horse race, could you really vote Clinton with a clear conscience?

You too turkeyboy?

sypkan, Tue 01 Nov 2016 07:44

Pilger on the propaganda machine, disturbing what we've been conditioned to accept


Sheepdog, Tue 01 Nov 2016 16:15

Having trouble posting comments today.... Must be a glitch.
Anyhoo, sypo..... So you would vote for trump?

sypkan, Tue 01 Nov 2016 17:09

I was trying to avoid stating that sheepdog,.... but considering no one else wants to play...

I honestly cannot commit myself to it,

It would have to be a gun to my head, must choose one or the other type scenario, in that case, on the current information I think I would vote trump, and I already feel dirty just for saying that

It's a matter of, in the current choice, the system is so twisted and broken, as is the democrat party.... that I see no other option, a vote for Clinton is a vote for all this to continue

I think we're better to throw the cards in the air and see where they fall, it seems it doesn't really matter, we're fucked either way. I think I'd have a clearer conscience voting trump, because a vote for Clinton is accepting and endorsing all that is wrong

I've had enough of the secretive invasion of the world, and the covert supporting of terrorism while refusing to acknowledge and face the fucking obvious

Who'd you go with sheepdog?

Sheepdog, Tue 01 Nov 2016 17:48

Sypo..... You could've just said "yes"....... bahahahahaha pmsl...

I wouldn't vote for either.... probably do what I did in the Australian election, and look at a third party purely as a protest vote.

AndyM, Tue 01 Nov 2016 18:11

The mainstream media seems to always mock John Pilger - I can't work out why...

sypkan, Tue 01 Nov 2016 18:35

probably because he does what the media used to do andym, while most have become propaganda spooners only. a really strange development considering the advent of the internet was in there somewhere

the game is must choose one sheepdog!!

I already said I'd go third candidate

AndyM, Tue 01 Nov 2016 18:39

Because the mainstream Western media are complicit.

talkingturkey, Tue 01 Nov 2016 19:07

Fun US election factoid:

Trump actually paid Clinton a large fee to attend his wedding. In slightly differing ways, that says a huge amount about how disgusting each of them are.

Blowin, Tue 01 Nov 2016 19:26


Anyone but Clinton. That means Trump.

Fuck the status quo.

And I'm a major beneficiary.

Actually, revolution lite would be more to my taste.

Can I keep all the pretty , happy things I've acquired whilst still tearing apart the putrid political / economic complex of the last 40 years.

Better make that the last 70 years.

Actually , maybe stop the clock at 1997 when Darwins theory was last working in my favour.

Always makes me laugh to hear people that are willing to destabilise the entire foundation of the modern global economy based upon the premise of computer modelling pronouncing an abstract prediction for the planet in a hundred years time, yet are vociferous in their endorsement of the one person that is virtually guaranteeing a continuation of the profit driven regime change war , the third party proxy war , the Neo Cold War and the continued antagonism of China that could potentially lead to war.

In summation : war, war and more war.

Real arms blown off, screaming in abject horror, bombing of civilians war.

But you're right, he grabbed a women on the pussy, let's hate his guts.

Just like we did for Axle Rose when he grabbed a groupies snatch in a coke fuelled bender.

Bomb Iran into the Stone Age or grab a women on her box ?

It's an indication of the "elite" if that's who the choice is , but I'd take groping over mass murder any day.

PS. Got to admit I have literally not heard a second of either Trump or Clinton speak since the election was announced. Literally not a second . So take that as you will, but I think I'm the better for it.

Trump is also keen to get rid of the TPP - which is a great thing for Australia.

Addenendum : Fuck China, let's keep those cunts in their box.

You think the USA are evil overlords......

velocityjohnno, Tue 01 Nov 2016 22:16

I just want their constitution to be respected again. A copy hangs above my desk & it's a great shining light for liberty in the world. (+Bill of Rights and Articles of Confederation 1789) Extinguish that flame and, well, the 21st Century won't be so pleasant.
I nominate Ron Paul as President. (And I have no say)

AndyM, Tue 01 Nov 2016 22:31


talkingturkey, Wed 02 Nov 2016 00:29

Hah! Ron friggin' Paul? Go Trump. Go nuclear.

discostu, Wed 02 Nov 2016 13:47

Thanks Velocity. I like a good video clip!

The weird thing is how long it has taken people to see Trump as the solution. It should have been clear when she let the US ambassador and three others die that she cared little for the American people. Another with the global BS of open borders for retards. Absolutely no idea that community and culture require a solid bunch of people who identify with the same things.

My work is to do with the mkts so I see sheep every moment of any given day. The thing that is clear is that a lot of people reach the same conclusion at the same time - rightly or wrongly. So, right now it is obvious Trumpy is picking up craploads of people like syper, sheepy and co.

The system is corrupt - worse here. Conditioning makes people see Trump initially as a monster because he doesn't say the sort of bollocks that people have been conditioned to expect by the media who are in bed with the clowns.

At the end of the day, one person corrupted the system at the expense of the country for her own gain. What kind of person gives credibility to a liar, cheat and a fraud who has rorted the system against them by voting for her?

All the talk of Russia when there is only one person who sold a 20% stake of US uranium to the Russians for a few million bucks into the foundation. Bucks that were not recorded.

Besides, Trumpy's missus is a winner. The Clinton family remind me of the deformed little gremlins that lurk at the end of the garden.

talkingturkey, Wed 02 Nov 2016 14:33

Disco, no love for your #1 fan Blowie?!

And if Trump is your solution, what is your problem? How is he going to "make America great again"? What does that even mean?

Actually, on just one thing in particular - his bigger than GW Bush's tax cuts for the corporates/elites/usual suspects - how's that gonna play out? You being in the 'mkts' and all, maybe you can give us all some insider, economix type, good oil shit?

An oldie but prescient goodie...

velocityjohnno, Wed 02 Nov 2016 17:45

Cheers Stu, Mkts here as well - it affords you an independent viewpoint and usually requires excellent analytical skills, and a willingness to look at all possible causes. Agree the US, for its flaws, is better than other places as they tend to shine the light on corruption more closely. I do look to the US, it's a liquidity and scale thing, which means following the election/Fed/reports...

I'll try to stay out of this thread until election, but in last hour a vid has come across my radar that is totally staggering:

I can't vouch for who the guy is, but his Wiki is plenty impressive. If what he is saying is true, the Republic is fighting for its life

Edit: I've just been through a history of the Roman Republic's fall into Empire, the parallels are just amazing. Who plays Caesar? Who plays Augustus?

talkingturkey, Wed 02 Nov 2016 18:04

One word on Dr. Steve Pieczenik: COINTELPRO.

Knock yourselves out, conspiracists.

sharkman, Wed 02 Nov 2016 20:16

Trump will win and we will all be better , as he knows how to grab a pussy and why!

sharkman, Wed 02 Nov 2016 20:16

Trump will win and we will all be better , as he knows how to grab a pussy and why!

sharkman, Wed 02 Nov 2016 20:16

Trump will win and we will all be better , as he knows how to grab a pussy and why!

memlasurf, Thu 03 Nov 2016 10:28

Velocity or even Star Wars!

sypkan, Thu 03 Nov 2016 11:02

Democrats just looking desperate now,

Even Obama doesn't look cool anymore

Choose hope? Not convincing barak

talkingturkey, Fri 04 Nov 2016 19:47

Freedom of choice.


Sheepdog, Sun 06 Nov 2016 13:38

Whatever drug Peta Credlin and Andrew Bolt are taking should be banned... They list the next possible "Trump" for Australia..
Pauline Hanson
Cory Bernardi
Tony Abbott
Andrew Hastie

Credlin goes on to write "When people say to me “there’s no way Trump can happen here”, I tell them they need to go for a drive outside their leafy suburb, find a pub, sit down in the front bar and just listen."

I'd like Peta to tell me which front bar it was where she sat down in and listened bahahahahahahaha....
And people buy this shit?

floyd, Sun 06 Nov 2016 15:12

hey sheepster-ado-da

check this out ..... its very good .... make sure you watch it to the end.

Sheepdog, Sun 06 Nov 2016 16:09

lol yeah seen it, floyd...... But hey he could've added a few more thing onto Hilary.... It aint just about the emails with her....

I bet there a people in the developing world watching this USA democracy freakshow, and they're probably thinking, " umm thanks but I'll think we'll stick with a dictatorship" bahahahahaha

floyd, Sun 06 Nov 2016 17:20

too true sheepster, benevolent dictator any day of the week or perhaps informed and educated consensus politics like in Norway ... never possible here, the national IQ level is way too low. Lets just have the shit fight race to the Uncle Sam way of doing things ... how many decades is it now since real wages increased for the yokels voting for Trump? Is it 3 or 4 decades?

Blowin, Sun 06 Nov 2016 18:59


Sheepdog, Sun 06 Nov 2016 20:28

Dunno, Floyd...... But either way, the USA is fucked... Hilary created the Libyan nightmare (along with France of course)..... Gadaffi was the guard of north Africa.... Sure, not a nice guy, but with him murdered and chaos in Libya, thousands are making the dangerous crossing over the mediterranean sea to escape the new radical regime.... So Hilary in my eyes has thousands of deaths on her hands AND European countries apart from France can rightly point the finger at her.... France, who pushed the UN with Hilary to bomb Libya and kill Gadaffi have no one but themselves to blame for their current situation...

sharkman, Mon 07 Nov 2016 07:49

So Sheepy , Australia must have a very low rating based on your , Hilary formula of Lybia. We participated in Iraq x 2 , Afghanistan , East Timor , helped create the Syrian situation , we have millions of deaths on our collective consciousness , but as an interesting sideline we have Pauline Hanson increasing in popularity , and having the balance of power in the senate , yeah USA is sure fucked , which means we are really fucked!

Blowin, Mon 07 Nov 2016 11:03


discostu, Mon 07 Nov 2016 11:29

My goodness but you two do love to draw attention to your low IQ and inability to use google. From a leftwing site:

And to farkman, I have absolutely no deaths on my conscience. I give absolutely no toss what so ever for those middle eastern scum that have been kidnapping westerners and killing Christians for decades. Not even the wealth states of the middle east will accept them. And you wonder why Hanson's popularity is increasing? Duh.

sharkman, Mon 07 Nov 2016 13:06

dear discostu , yes I have no wonder about you and Pauline , having no conscience at all , as being restricted by ones IQ, is a science , which you share with your alter ego Pauline , how does it feel to be clad in fish & chip wrappers , going for a country roll?
and yes those middle scum who have been killing Christians for decades, you Christians must feel like a minority group!

talkingturkey, Mon 07 Nov 2016 13:14

Time Magazine is left-wing?! Yeah right, really got the joke now, tomodachi... (or rather, 'watashi ha ZenAgain-san no tomodachi desu' ?)



discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 10:50

Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! You can do it! Regardless of the fraudulent machines, the dead voting multiple times and non citizens voting, you can win!

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 11:16

Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! Go mate! C'mon Trumpy! Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! C'mon mate! Go Trumpy!

There's a bangin' song in that! Gimme something to dance to...

udo, Wed 09 Nov 2016 11:23

Theres a bangin at a polling booth

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 11:32

The answer, my friend, is bangin' in the wind...the answer is bangin' in the wind...

(like a dunny door in a storm)

David H Koch, Wed 09 Nov 2016 11:49

Now THATS hilarious, you and dags swap dad jokes on pm?

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 12:00

PM? I'm strictly an AM man, sonny-boy. Talkback.

Now young 'un, when you & Stu-bags get jiggy widdit at the discotheque tonight after today's inevitable victory, will you both be singing as well as dancing? Quite a skill, I'd wager. Like thinking and chewing gum or summat.

Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! Go mate! C'mon Trumpy! Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! C'mon mate! Go Trumpy!

David H Koch, Wed 09 Nov 2016 12:12

Lolololololol....stop it warrior your gonna get me kicked out of my Centrelink projection

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 13:41

Trumpy ahead.

Reach for the tissues Benpi, Sheepshagger, voyd and co. Yaz moit wanna be contactin da HRC for what will soon follow if Trumpy gets in yo! Awwwwww

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 13:46

Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! Go mate! C'mon Trumpy! Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! C'mon mate! Go Trumpy!

Doof! Doof! Doof! Doof!

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 14:00

Doof would be you dropkick. I'm more of an acca dacca man meself.

Shillary's fave song is highway to hell.

sypkan, Wed 09 Nov 2016 14:33

the look on the face of the channel 7

nick3, Wed 09 Nov 2016 14:45

Go you good thing. Fuck you left wing, pollically correct wankers.

sypkan, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:10

I think he's more worried about the squiggly line on the bottom of the screen

he seems a little fixated

yocal, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:22

You angry mob won't be laughing when 'Mmerica collapses under this Fascist regime. I see that we are heading for dark times. Russia is poised & ready to take advantage.

udo, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:29

Any predictions on the $US if Trumpy gets in ?

yocal, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:30

i predict that it will no longer be the baseline for global currencies

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:30

Disco-Stu, an AC/DC man? Why didn't you just call yourself AC/DC-Stu then? Erm, hang good.

Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! Go mate! C'mon Trumpy! Go Trumpy! C'mon mate! C'mon mate! Go Trumpy!

Life at the outpost.

benski, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:32

I'm over in the US a fair bit for work and have lots of friends and family there. Last November while I was there I was telling anyone who'd listen that I thought Trump would win the presidency because he was manipulating the media so well and owning every moment of air time. In Feb this year when I was back there I still thought that. He genuinely connected with a lot of people and Hilary didn't (for lots of reasons, some reasonable some unreasonable). And generally speaking, the American public loves a tough guy, which Trump embodies for them.

By July, my last trip there, I'd changed my mind and thought Hilary would win. The RNC was weak and aimless with speakers rambling without enthusiasm while the DNC was full of more motivated speakers that really focused the narrative well (despite the initial issues relating to Bernie's loss and the chair of the DNC). After the pussy grabbing video and Trump's weak debate performances, I figured his goose was cooked. I deal in probabilities at work and the UK elections and then the Brexit result had me thinking it was always a possibility that he'd win but I thought he was probably done.

But it looks like he might do it eh. It's pretty interesting to see. Policy wise, I think I'm most surprised his desire to curb free speech didn't sink his support among the constitutionalists in the US. Go figure.

Globally, I think it makes Australia less safe. We're safest when we're closely tied to a strong US that talks softly and carries a big stick. I'm not sure he can only carry the stick. We have a delicate position with China-US relations and Trump's positions on China might not play out well for us. Although if he throws up trade barriers that might work out well for us in fact!

What's really bizarre is just how left wing his economic positions are (and of course contradictory to his own business practices). Trade barriers and government support for manufacturing in advanced economies are the domain of the far left. But that's Trump's angle. It genuinely amazes me that right wing people support this. I'm to the right of this guy on those issues so I do find that kind of thing baffling.

I've had a morbid curiosity about what the world might look like if this happened. From memory there was a bit of that driving the brexit vote and I'd reckon there's some of that here. Let's shake things up and see what happens. It's going to be really interesting to watch!

As for the depressing stuff, the right and access to abortion is likely to be dramatically limited over the next four years and possibly made illegal if he does manage to stack the supreme court. That will be a depressing outcome because that's a generational shift.

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:53

Benpi, you are full of brown stuff. Wipe that chin you left wing piece of bollocks!

That morbid curiosity of yours could be fixed by stopping looking in the mirror! Wahahahaha

Go Trumpy!

Where are all the left tards? Hiding down your holes. BB, Sypper, Gobbler? Can you feel it? CAN YOU FEEL IT? wooohoooooooooo

I guess all the longboards are out on hire.

nick3, Wed 09 Nov 2016 15:57

Yokal it will be all fine as long as the left aren't running things then you have nothing to worry about.

tonybarber, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:02

Yes, " And generally speaking, the American public loves a tough guy, which Trump embodies for them."
And the Australian public want a 'tough' guy.
Don't forget the US Senate. There are and will be forces within the administration and Republicans to temper his voice and actions.

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:07

Benski, I posted something on the What's What? thread via that old provocateur SLAVOJ ŽIŽEK, where he brings up exactly some of those ideas.


Chuck "ŽIŽEK" "TRUMP" "CLINTON" & "To paraphrase Stalin: They are both worse" in your search engine!"

As for Disco-Stu, we get your venting-troll, clown schtick - ho ho! - BUT from Benki's post, I've got more actual info or concerns or even curiousity about Trump policy-wise than ANYTHING you've posted.

Your man Trumpy is going to do WHAT exactly to "make America great again"? What policies of his float your boat? You claim you're in the 'mkts', is his 'radical' tax-plan, say - bigger corporate tax cuts than GW Bush's by a loooong way - the clincher for you? Something else? Anything else? ANYTHING?

Woohoo, Trumpy, Leftard...blah blah blah...PARP!

C'mon, give us something, Disco. Let us understand...

yocal, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:12

I think that the campaign trail has demonstrated the opposite Tony, Trump shoots from the hip despite his administration's efforts to reduce the damage. We're about to get a reactive aggressor as the leader of the world power, right when it is at its weakest and most vulnerable.

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:14

Errr, I have posted a link to Trumps plans previously. Go read them.

I don't talk shop with imbeciles gobbler.

stunet, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:15

^^ Ditto @DS

What policies of his do you admire, and which do you think will succeed?

I can understand the sentiment but wonder what the reaction wil be when, say, the costs of goods start to rise due to tariffs. Or the economy stumbles 'cos labor in the US will never be as cheap as that in Latin America or Asia.

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:26

Piss-weak, Disco. ANYTHING?! Quick, trawl through his web-site.

"Not as dumb as you look, but not as smart as you think"


discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:36

Stu, examine Japan. Tariffs on everything. Yen stronger than shit. There goes your COGS argument.

You mean a $5 dollar an hour minimum pay rate isn't low enough? You do know that the price of Chinese goods is going up because of increasing wages right? Quality hasn't improved on anything they make.

Japan isn't as cheap as Latin America or other Asian countries - so what is the point of that statement?

Time to let these other countries get their own shit together. No point helping them. Stuff them. Trump wants to make the US strong for Americans. Who the hell cares about the rest of the world? Competition isn't about giving handouts to bums.

David H Koch, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:37

" BUT from Benki's post, I've got more actual info or concerns or even curiousity about Trump policy-wise than ANYTHING you've posted."

ACTUAL info ey, is that like info from buzzfeed, or info from some obscure socialist propaganda, or info that milo is of the alt right? Actual info, where do you get


floyd, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:39

Spot on Stu, what comes next? how will he deliver the impossible? and what will the reaction be when the Trump supporters/voters realise he is all froth and bubble.

I know several Australians living/working in the UK both in central London (anti Brexit) and in the outer cities (heavily for Brexit). Two worlds; one with a thriving economy the other in recession. The startling thing I'm hearing is the pro Brexit people and their communities are inward and backwards looking and the only answer they have is to go back to the full employment days of the 60s and 70s with the help of government money .... how is that sustainable or even possible. So the UK pro Brexit (mostly conservative low taxing) politicians have raised expectations that they will not deliver on.

Can't help but think the same will happen in the US.

nick3, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:41

Yokal so please explain how Trump getting up is going to be down the downfall of America.
I predict the markets will react positively once they get over the shock.

yocal, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:50

Couldnt really be buggered debating nick3 so let's revisit in <2 years and we'll see where its at.

benski, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:53

yeah floyd, that's exactly what I was thinking. And it took Nigel Farage less than 24 hours to back away from the brexit 'promise' of funding the NHS instead of sending cash to Europe (for which there was a net positive return).

turkey, no brain power to read through it all just at the moment, but looks interesting.

Sheepdog, Wed 09 Nov 2016 16:54

Fair call yocal..... Btw I could never picture a potential PM callling a whole bunch of Australian voters a "basket of deplorables"..... BIG mistake... And it's the rust belt where she's being whipped...

BTW I'm not that worried about Donald.... As I said yesterday, his running mate Pence is a bigger worry...
You seen that footage of him denying evolution?
Religious nutter, just well dressed.

nick3, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:28

Yocal will the bleeding left scare tactics about Trump be like Tim Flannery's predictions on global warming.

Sheepdog, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:39

GW Bush and Bill Cinton both have a part to play in this..... The incestuous almost "royalty" that has taken over American politics is "on the nose"..... There was Bush senior.... Then Bill..... Then son George Dubbya, who was a laughing stock..... There was even a chance not so long ago that another Bush would be taking on a Clinton... Well, people had enough.....

benski, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:45

sheepdog, wait a minute, are you watching The Drum and passing off the opinions there as your own? ;-) They've just been talking about an election against royalty.

davetherave, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:46

China wins us election. Trumps queen Hilary then asks for it's loans back. Open for code swapping. James clavell makes a comeback as the saga continues. Yawn. Time to watch al Bundy.

fitzroy-21, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:51

Like Brexit, this is the voting public giving the finger to career politicians that no longer represent the people.

talkingturkey, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:57

One for the people.


floyd, Wed 09 Nov 2016 17:59

Jerry Jerry Jerry Jerry .....

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:13





It was Russia, it was China, it was Tasmania! WAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAA

Sheepdog, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:18

Benski..... you write "sheepdog, wait a minute, are you watching The Drum and passing off the opinions there as your own? ;-) They've just been talking about an election against royalty."

Mate, go to the guardian live thread..... As I have stated here to floyd quite a while ago, I post there as the pseudonym "Harrytick" (as in heretic) and also used to stir up rightards on the Andrew Bolt site using the same name before it got paywalled.... You'll see a post of mine saying exactly the same thing hours ago.

Sheepdog, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:21

Benksi, correction, not "hours ago" lol, about an hour ago....

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:24

Shagger you demented little flower. HOW DOES IT FEEL?



And Bolt's site has never been behind a paywall you pathetic little makeup artist.




Sheepdog, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:36

Stu, how long do you like being wrong?
Anyone here, go to Bolts site now and try to post a comment.. You cant unless you have a herald sun subscription..
And Trump isn't from the right you idiot.... He has turned the rightard republicans on their head.... The rightards couldn't even get their man Rubio up as presidential candidate.... bahahahahaha..... You really are a fuckwit.... The right are all for free trade, ask ya mate Andrew Robb.....

indo-dreaming, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:40

Wow I cant believe it Trump is going to be USA president, the guys a total dick, but on the flip side I'm glad he won just because he is the underdog and to shake things up and mostly just to piss the far left off.

Now i guess we wait and see what is going to happen?.

If the far left are to be believed the sky will be falling down tomorrow, i personally know jack shit, but my guess is not much will change the world will go on the USA will continue the shit they do like getting involved in wars and the media will still take a bias anti trump view.

benski, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:51

All good mate. But it sounds like someone on the drum was reading your posts!

I dunno how you post in too many places man. I like it here cos there's a few interesting people and you can yarn for more than 24 hours like on those other kinds of threads. Also I can't be bothered with people who just wanna throw lame insults around and nothing else but that's about all you get over there isn't it!?!?

Indo, if he actually keeps his promises, things will change a bit I think.

goofyfoot, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:53

Holy crap he's done it..

God save the world

thermalben, Wed 09 Nov 2016 18:55


discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 19:03

That this thread opens with BB displaying his stupidity and then having a whole bunch of idiot singing from the same hymn sheet is just gold!

Suck it up!

Australia next.

No more climate change crap! WAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA

Tissues for everyone! tehehehehehhehehe

Gary G, Wed 09 Nov 2016 19:08

Gary never knew that Senator Bernardi was a surfer or a Simpsons fan.
The things one learns.

Rabbits68, Wed 09 Nov 2016 19:31

Soooooo "the system" isn't rigged. Hang on. Or is it?............... I'm confused.....

velocityjohnno, Wed 09 Nov 2016 20:44

Well there you have it. The second populist upset of 2016. Marine Le Pen next (or Italy before?).
Mr Turkey I think you are right that Mr Steve was cointelpro, a bit deeper research was required.

It seems nations want to be nations again. People want borders. And the leftist inner cities and conservative rural/suburban areas are in opposition across the Western world. People don't like the exposure of outright fraud in elections. And this sweeping feeling is so strong you see right wing figures adopting left wing economic policy (national protection), and being voted in in wild popularity.

Markets shat the bed, dow was limit down 650 before Trump's speech (put everyone to work upgrading infrastructure), then half that. Precious metals had a Sterling day (bad pun). Calendar ahead into 2017... looks rocky.

indo-dreaming, Wed 09 Nov 2016 21:11

Kind of crazy that USA and Australia are yet to vote in a female president/prime minister. (The Aussie public never voted Julia in)

Even Indonesia that has the biggest muslim population in the world voted in a female president 15 years ago.

Sheepdog, Wed 09 Nov 2016 21:22

True, Indo.... But on a state level Qld has voted in a female leader, twice - Bligh and Palaszczuk.

happyasS, Wed 09 Nov 2016 21:36

what you talkin bout indo? julia won her minority govt by election in 2010.

David H Koch, Wed 09 Nov 2016 21:45

Should be straight forward, all the polls say the anti-establishment parties don't have a chance [img][/img]

discostu, Wed 09 Nov 2016 21:46

The record of female leaders the world over speaks for itself. Back to the kitchen as they say.

velocityjohnno, Wed 09 Nov 2016 21:52

Mr Koch, not a chance like Brexit 4/1 and Trump 4/1 on the day beforehand? Polling and odds have egg on their faces. Good chart but, I like it.

David H Koch, Wed 09 Nov 2016 22:14

Yep, that sort of not a chance. The sort that exposes the shill media and pollsters.

velocityjohnno, Thu 10 Nov 2016 06:39

& wake up to find Dow up 245, that's an 800 point turnaround, gotta love unpredictable political events lol
I did read one trader say he bet his retirement on OTM puts, oh dear

tonybarber, Thu 10 Nov 2016 07:23

If you listened to Trumps victory speech then you will understand why the stock market bounced back - in a solid manner. Obama will get a lesson on how and what to say after listening to Trump.

nick3, Thu 10 Nov 2016 07:38

What a great day for the free world.

sharkman, Thu 10 Nov 2016 08:35

The start of a new day of a world with no Surf forecasts!

David H Koch, Thu 10 Nov 2016 08:59

Yeah, disorderly queues as b grade celebrity shills stay true to their word

floyd, Thu 10 Nov 2016 09:00

The Tones says " If you listened to Trumps victory speech then you will understand why the stock market bounced back - in a solid manner. Obama will get a lesson on how and what to say after listening to Trump."

Very instructive Tones how you have (mostly) presented yourself here as a reasonable person yet here you are aligning yourself with Trump. As I said very instructive and it confirms my view of you and veiled snipes over the last couple of years.

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 09:19

Interesting reading from Spiked, the pommie libertarian publication who pushed hard on Brexit and all causes for free speech and anti-state control and even they are against Trump. Granted they're a bit would you say, considered, in their opinions. Some might even call them intellectual...but they're got the right wing of their house in order and they're appalled. The only benefit, in their mind, is that once Trump goes a real libertarian may wrest control of the levers and complete the 'sovereign nation' project without the ego, illiberalism, and illogic of Trump.

Like Benski mentioned yesterday I'm slightly baffled that the right has assumed left wing concepts such as trade protection, but if Trump follows through on it it 'may' be a good thing.

The elephant in the house is big business; economic disadvantage was thrust to the fore in this election, the cause of which was immigration (taking US jobs) and free trade (shifting labor markets). However, at least for the latter, big business has much to answer for. All those tumbleweed towns in the Mid-West rust belt were once supported by American business who chose to shift their operations abroad. Will they return?

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 09:25

...and to all those people ragging on 'the media' for getting it wrong, as if they all suffered some collective delusion.

Remember many Republicans, even the speaker of the house, disendorsed Trump. These are the people who know the state of their constituency better than anyone and they thought he was a lost cause.

yocal, Thu 10 Nov 2016 09:32

Stunet wrote: "Like Benski mentioned yesterday I'm slightly baffled that the right has assumed left wing concepts such as trade protection, but if Trump follows through on it it 'may' be a good thing."

I think not if it is carried out on the premis of xenophobia and neurotic nationalism.

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 09:45

Yup...and that explains my 'cautious quote marks'.

Last night I read the opening chapter of 'In Defence of Global Capitalism', which was the holy tome for progressives ten years ago. Back then we had Bush and Cheney trying to spread American democracy across the Middle East while the Washington Consensus was being forced on almost every country in the world. Globalisation was the only answer to the world's ills.

Now, a decade later, we've got the polar opposite, and amazingly it's being controlled by the leader of the same party of Bush and Cheney!

tonybarber, Thu 10 Nov 2016 10:05

Yes, it was not only the media that got Trump wrong but finance 'experts', political 'experts', and more. To be exact you may not have got Trump wrong but you got the people's mood wrong. Trump actually got it right. This 'left' / ' 'right' thing is way too simplistic and a flawed way of looking at it. Already, we have seen the people mood here and arguably Britain and yep, you can expect more in Europe in the coming months. Merkel is looking fragile. Italy is always moody.
The important element in this, was Trumps acceptance speech. Sanity will prevail.

David H Koch, Thu 10 Nov 2016 10:08

What a waste of a decade then, 8 years of Obama pushing the same policies as bush and Cheney. Adding Libya, Syria, Somalia and Yemen to the devastation, what a legacy

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 10:17

Yeah interested to see if/how Trump pulls out of the MIddle East. Still a lot of cheap oil sitting under those sands, and it's oil that big American businesses want.

Also, I imagine there'd be a few generals not happy to be decommissioned either. Plus, one of his policies was to raise defence spending and increase the Army and Marine corps. To what end?

yocal, Thu 10 Nov 2016 10:27

Sadly I just don't see how an extreme narcissist in ALL aspects of his character is able to avoid causing a great deal of conflict internally and externally to the USA.

Tonybarber you are so right in your statement: "This 'left' / ' 'right' thing is way too simplistic and a flawed way of looking at it." Its way to simple to assume that extreme malignant narcissism is entrenched in any single side of the dichotomy in political ideology. Narcissism can exist in anyone and it can inspire others to pursue self-interested ideas rather than consider themselves as a tiny contribution to a gigantic global society.

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 10:44

Clearly a big part of trump's vote weren't their constituency

The media and pollsters got it so wrong because they truly live in a different world to your average Joe. This is now a little cliché, but in the modern context this point cannot be overstated.

Trump had half his own party working against him and still won, that ain't just whitedudes

Yeh some miserable fucks on here show there is a racist undercurrent but it's a small minority and denigrating the whole movement hasn't served the media well, especially when that card was well and truly worn out long ago

People of all colours and classes are sick to death of political correctness, trump tapped in on that, he blew it out of the water, that doesn't mean we're all going to regress to discococks, but if the left doesn't back off to some manageable level of tolerance equilibrium they will loose that fight.

It really is just the growing class divisions in the left that have lead to trump, as the well to do and politically savvy live in this bubble of social norms and ideals. If you don't take people with you how can you expect them to share your ideals?

Clinton is the epitome of the establishment, pushed by the establishment so much so they steamrolled their own quality candidate that could have been democratically elected, and almost certainly would have

Drain the swamp is very appropriate

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 10:56

if we are allowed to quote right wing sites now, this is what feminists and one eyed democrats seem to blatantly overlook, god knows how, the evidence is damming


When the anti war look after workers guy is a millionaire right wing crazy man, and the nice lady looks after wall street, banks, the industrial military complex and Saudi Arabia interests you know the system is broken

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:02

Trump is the anti war guy?

We'll see...

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:14

InSypo! Camille Paglia! On these threads! I like it. Provocateurs like her & Žižek, with some real bonafide brain-power, are always interesting to hear from. The neo-liberal system is broken. The cracks and fissures are getting wider. Who fills these gaps is the thing. 'Interesting times'!

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:18

Admittedly it doesn't look good, but look at the alternative

Doesn't even kerb her hawkish narrative

I don't know how anyone can think the 'conventional wisdom' has been working, our dubious allies are the problem, Bernie and trump both said it, Mrs. Moneybags admits it privately while flatly denying everything publicly

When is enough enough?

5 years was too much for Vietnam, what the fuck is wrong with people when we have a 15 year war still with no plan?

And the 'progressives' just lap it up

David H Koch, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:45

War with who? Certainly trump has intimated he wants to improve relations with Russia, so there goes Russia, Syria, Ukraine. Obama has been pushing for conflict with Russia and China for the last few years, other than that they're already at war with most of the Middle East either directly or by proxy and Clinton made it quite clear she would move on Iran if she was elected.

David H Koch, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:46

Obama not only a warmonger but a racist and xenophobe if you apply the same logic applied to trump.

constitutional law professor President, Obama. In February 2014, the Economist reported that:

"America is expelling illegal immigrants at nine times the rate of 20 years ago (see article); nearly 2 million so far under Barack Obama, easily outpacing any previous president. Border patrol agents no longer just patrol the border; they scour the country for illegals to eject. The deportation machine costs more than all other areas of federal criminal law-enforcement combined. It tears families apart and impoverishes America."

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:57

His promise to "bomb the shit out of ISIS" could have unintended consequences, same with his promised "trade war" on China, and also his backing of Israel. All the while, his shoot-from-the-hip rhetoric can/will foment animosity. It's hard to see how his policies - what we know of them - will increase stability, and America has too many business interests around the world to ignore regional instability.

A short digression...

On the home front he's already said a few good things about using cheap debt to fund infrastructure and employ the "delporables" but I can't see the sustainability in that. Automation is gonna take all those manufacturing jobs anyway - the same as it will eventually take them in SE Asia - and he's put forth no other plan for long term employment. Will they take the service jobs vacated by Mexicans? Surely a hit to the dignity, no?

So he'll have instability on his own doorstep. And what then..?

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 11:58

I'm glad you put the old quotation marks round 'progressives', InSypo. Who are they? The Corporate Democrats (as Jello Biafra amongst others have called them)?

People like him have been railing against them since the first Clinton experience. The NAFTA, GATT, WTO 'good times'. You don't want to conflate the US, UK & us too much BUT around that time, the time of this 'third way' bollocks pushed on the 'progressive' side by Clinton, Blair, and of course latterly from the second-rate Latham, the neo-liberal rot really set in on that side of the house. Remember Rudd, the 'fiscal conservative'? I was overseas when I first heard that and that's when my alarm bells rang, even though it was "anyone but Howard...again" by that time back then.

Yeah, Keating ushered in a lot of it pre-this time period. He was reactive/proactive under the world pressure the 'economic revolution' of Reaganomics & Thatcherism brought to bear. Ties too strong to ignore? Could he have looked elsewhere for a blue-print?

There are some that look at, say, Norway and point in that direction. But really? Australia hasn't got the figs, figuratively. We are a deeply conservative nation. The 'egalitarian', matey, larrikin/rebel lies we tell ourselves don't stack up, especially politically. We're a nation of class clowns...stuck in the 'class' room with whatever 'teacher' is in for the period.

What will Australian politics learn from the Sanders/Trump/Hillary election? Or the Corbyn/Brexit/UKIP experience? Which way we gonna go? Wanna go? Need to go?

& in some ways, with the make-up of our media landscape, and its even MORE concentration soon, it's going to be an even tougher task to sort this all out. Phew. 'Interesting times' indeed.

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:16

I agree stunet he hasn't got a clue, but he's said he'll talk to Russia, that's a start,

it's now common knowledge Clinton funded ISIS and destabilised Syria, it's common knowledge this was for a pipeline to cross the country and that Russia want to do the same. Syria invited Russia because we covertly destroyed their country, Russians presence is legitimate ours is not, yet Clintons establishment thinks we've got to bomb the fuck out of them

I'll take talk to Russia, as this is only the current peak in an ongoing 15 year campaign aligned with bigger philosophies that don't seem to be working

benski, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:21

sypkan, You've said it's common knowledge Clinton funded ISIS and all that. Can you elaborate on that? I've been a bit of an ostrich with the anti-Clinton stuff, not because I support her (I don't support any of them) but because it all seemed to be the realms of conspiracy and nut-jobbery. If she actually funded ISIS that's tantamount to a war crime I would have thought, so for it to be common knowledge the evidence would have to be there. And I'd have thought some of the establishment crowd would have gone after her for that. Can you explain it a bit?

And I should say, I'm not having a go at you or trying to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious and you're a reasonable person who won't send me down some backwards rabbit hole.

David H Koch, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:29

Bomb the shit out of Isis is already happening in Syria and again in Iraq. If anything a cooperative stance with Russia and Iran in these issues is a safer resolution than continuing a proxy war against them. Economic war with China is already happening, China are going all out against the US dollar. Trump has never said he would dissolve free trade, he's said he will work on deals that are less on sided. Protectionism may be what the states need, obviously it's an economic basket case.

The media has a lot to answer for setting this guy up as a monster. Obama can make jokes about droning people while at the same time droning innocent real people. Hillary can make jokes about the leader of the most successful country in Africa being sodomised to death with a knife and the population left with a bombed, failed state. Both are praised for their virtues. Trump makes a crude pussy grabbing comment about a fictitious event and half the western world becomes hysterical. Where's the moral honesty, where's the moral perspective?

David H Koch, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:36

It's all there to be read benski, once you've looked at Isis funding there's Ukraine, manipulating/rigging the pre selection, manipulating the press, inciting violence at trump rallies (veritas), Clinton foundation scams, rigging elections and polling (veritas), Haiti etc etc etcshe's got a shitlist so long it's any wonder more people in the states want to see her in jail than voted for her.

Like turkey said, interesting times. Information can't be controlled like it was, Wikileaks involvement in this election is testament to that.

stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:41

"Wikileaks involvement in this election is testament to that."

Wonder if he'll come out of his Ecuadorian cubby house now. Surely he's safe?

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:42

well it's not actually common knowledge benski, so it's still steeped in conspiracy, it's coming out though,

the lines are blurred when rebels actually became ISIS but I'll try and find something credible

The pipeline stuff has been flying around for ages

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:52

So you're a bomb-thrower, Kochie, like Assange (but don't think for a sec Julian hasn't got more personal ulterior motives), and Trump is just the incendiary device? Or you are a legitimate Trump dude that thinks he's got some/any answers?

Information may not be as controlled as it was (as you put it), but dissemination by corporate media is still the biggest game in town at the mo. And looking even bleaker in Australia sooner rather than later.

Race against time for a digital, net-savvy, & well informed populace?

BobC, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:57

Let see what Donald's got, can't be any worse than it is now. Their economy is stuffed with whole cities shut down and Clinton one of the main culprits responsible for making a mess of the Middle east. Democracy won't work in an Islamic country so stop dreaming. It's good for us but Arabs need the biggest bully to be in charge of all the other bullies. You could go to the beach, wear a bikini, stay in a nice hotel and have a beer in Syria before the Muslim brotherhood uprising and America backing them with guns for a stupid attempt at democracy. If everybody stays home and minds their own business, builds their own economy and keep all the arabs inside their own borders to fight it out amongst themselves, we will all be better off. Go Donald, hope your not full of crap and can actually rebuild Americas economy. He's got tons of coin and a super hot missus so he can't be that stupid.

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:57

Yeah, Bob, I don't think he's the stupid one here...

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 12:58 the States, I mean.

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 13:04

Here's something benski,, I had a good military dude article, i'll try and find that


stunet, Thu 10 Nov 2016 13:08



nick3, Thu 10 Nov 2016 13:10

How are the world Markets going?????

benski, Thu 10 Nov 2016 13:11

Thanks sypkan

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 13:26

koch is right, wikileaks has changed the world and the machine is just catching up

sheepdog pointed it out months ago, when the rothchilds or someone was lamenting the internet, as they had lost control of the narrative

still in denial, but definitely lost control

floyd, Thu 10 Nov 2016 13:28

The positive I see is perhaps now we can have an independent foreign policy.

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 14:14

Yes, was apt yesterday (when it was first posted by some goofball), apt today, and apt for the foreseeable...unfortunately.

yocal, Thu 10 Nov 2016 14:18

BobC Wrote: Democracy won't work in an Islamic country so stop dreaming.

Muslim President Jokowi was democratically elected in Indonesia, the most populace Muslim country in the world. He is making great progress (depending on what you believe) and all in the name of Democracy.

Sheepdog, Thu 10 Nov 2016 16:41

Yeah sypo, they've lost control......
Now I'm always one for a good conspiracy theory..... IMO about 6 or so years ago, there was a BIG change and push in regards to "opinion polls"..... Big money in it.... These companies don't do it as a "community service".... I believe that these so called trustworthy poll companies have been compromised... I believe they are being used not to state the mood, but create the mood. They are being manipulated in an attempt to shape public opinion, and therefore shape policy... I mean how can these so called "reputable" poll companies get things soooooo wrong? Brexit was waaay out..... Clinton was heading for an easy win..
If these poll companies are "on the take" from vested interests to manipulate data, to make a cause or issue seem supported by a majority hoping people will follow suit, then they have no one to blame when the masses just scoff at their latest numbers.... I'm scoffing at the numbers.... I dont believe them.... The upside, and there always is an upside, is that the days of "poll driven politics" may be numbered.

yocal, Thu 10 Nov 2016 17:01

Maybe the US election Opinion Pollers just went out to the streets in the Major cities to collect their Data ie: 3 blocks from the TV station. astonishing to see how polarised Rural votes vs city votes were in this election.

This kind of division brings to mind the Thailand govt. protest rallies in 2013

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 17:22

yeh lots of manipulation of opinion going on, saw it over a few days at the Washington post, smart arse comments trying to change the course of conversation as the fbi comey thing developed. apparently some brooks guy had hired them all, you could literally see the change of shift

this is the new game and its why things are so broken, the media feeds itself rather than reporting reality, and everyone is partisan

it's not even conspiracy sheepdog, just collusion, most of them are so dumb they don't even know they're doing it.

same with the saudi arabia blind ignorance to terrorism thing, as bernie said ...there's no conspiracy,....just collusion.....collusion of the highest order. self serving collusion that has corrupted the process and its systems rather than just certain individuals

floyd, Thu 10 Nov 2016 17:28

The thing I agree with Trump about (the only thing) is his statements about ordinary people being forgotten by the political elite. Same as Brexit and here. My theory on why this is so comes down to how western democracy has been corrupted by lobbyists. Politicians are no longer able to make decisions without having lobbyists for and against every decision they want to make banging down their door. Think I'm talking through my arse think back to the mining tax campaign the mostly foreign no tax paying miners raged here in AU. If you want to see how all that works in the US look no further than what the processed food industry or gun lobby gets away with.

Anyway, while Trump struck a cord in the rust belt it will be interesting to see if he can deliver, personally I'm not holding my breath coz Trump has used the same tactics in the past to gain commercial advantage and he alone will have to battle both the senate and congress to get any movement.

..... its laughable that here and elsewhere the right are claiming a victory and are giving the finger to so called lefties. Trump isn't a republican, not sure what he is but he isn't a poster boy of conservative values, in fact I'm thinking he has split the right even further into clearer groups of moderate ultra conservatives and ultra ultra right fucktards that should stay under their rock .... it will be interesting to see whether he just rolls over to the republication agenda now or he will stay true to word in support of the rust belt.

Where trump could really fuck up is on tax cuts. What he has promised is inconceivable - cutting corporate and personal tax drastically and balancing the budget. An impossible task and the last lunatic president that cut taxes and increased spending was Bush and he pretty much bankrupted the US economy. Bankruptcy, now that's a thing Trump is good at so he mightn't care if he bankrupts the US economy and causes a massive recession or perhaps depression. Where will his rust belters (and the world for that matter) be then?

Only hoping he has the good sense to surround himself with good men and women, for everyone's sake.

Finally, Michael Moore predicted all this coz he has been spending a lot of time out in the rust belt states, its a pity the democrats didn't listen, the world is likely to never be the same again.

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 17:46

I'm actually pretty positive, his acceptance speach was pretty gracious and conciliatory

and he put it out to his party that he's open and needs their guidance

that tells me he doesn't really want it, he just wanted to shake shit up, he'll be out at the first opportunity ...a farage maybe?

indo-dreaming, Thu 10 Nov 2016 17:58

@ Floyd

It's really not important where Trumps sits in the left/right thing.

What's more important is the lefts nightmare has come true and they all thought it couldn't happen.

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 18:20

I missed Trumps' speech...I think.

In all seriousness, InSypo, that's it? Too hard, fucks off. Fucken hell. Great. Who's taking the reins? Pence??? Sweet baby Jeeezus.

blindboy, Thu 10 Nov 2016 18:30

indo Trump's election has been seen as a distinct possibility for several months now at least. To say the left didn't see it coming is misleading as it assumes there is such a thing as "the left" in mainstream politics in the US. There isn't and hasn't been since...........well never really. The US has always been run by the right or right leaning centrists. Obama's policies were close to the centre but nowhere near left. I wonder how many of those cheering Trump last night will still be cheering in a year's time given the significant risk of him leading the country, and perhaps the world, into a serious recession.

Sheepdog, Thu 10 Nov 2016 18:33

"What's more important is the lefts nightmare has come true and they all thought it couldn't happen."

Anyone who considers the democrats Bill Clinton onwards "of the left" needs to study a bit more... Same with Labor here in Australia..... They don't represent the working class anymore.... They represent the bourgeoisie, the upper middle class tossbags who munch quinoa and smugly belittle people....

But Trump has also decimated the right... He's forever changed the republicans, once represented by the Bush clan, Rumsfeld, Cheney etc.

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 18:40

Back to the books, Doggo...all over the shop on all counts there.

talkingturkey, Thu 10 Nov 2016 18:42

Trump has riven the Republicans though...for now

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 19:12

so what do you guys call all those poor misguided teary eyed girls sitting in that big cube thingy until 2 in the morning waiting for that glass cieling to smash?

left or right?

then the nasty piece of work didn't even show her face, slips out the backdoor and concedes to trump on the phone


floyd, Thu 10 Nov 2016 19:20

@indo, so agreed with what you said yesterday when you said you know jack shit, or am I misquoting you? :))

There is no left in America its all centre right or right right ultra right

Blowin, Thu 10 Nov 2016 19:30

Trumps win is the presidential equivalent of Adriano Desoucsa' s world title .....everyone is going to think they've got a realistic shot now.

Michelle Obama and Kanye West on the ticket next time round.

indo-dreaming, Thu 10 Nov 2016 19:33

Maybe i didn't word that correct, i wasn't suggesting Hillary or her party was left and i wasn't really thinking about the perception in USA.

I was thinking more just the lefties in Australia, they are now all over social media sulking and its great to see the medias reaction.

I dont agree, at-least here in Australia i don't think anyone really thought Trump could become president, and everyones reaction i know are just WTF? Including me i was blown away.

So even though I'm not a Trump supporter it's still gold now all these people are going WTF how could this happen, its even better after Brexit.

Maybe i follow ABC, SBS and public radio too much but it always feels like we are having views on how to think shoved down our throats instead of being give the facts then letting us make a decision, and not only how to think but how others are thinking, and its kind of good when it doesn't pan out how thy say its going too.

sypkan, Thu 10 Nov 2016 20:26


paul keating on trump on 7.30 report

check it out, he's on Floyd's boat amongst other things

floyd, Thu 10 Nov 2016 20:36

saw it sypkan, Keating the greatest political mind in AU in my lifetime .....

velocityjohnno, Thu 10 Nov 2016 21:50

Would anyone like to hazard a prediction of the result if it were Bernie Sanders running instead of Hillary?

floyd, Thu 10 Nov 2016 22:16

Thats an interesting question VJ, reckon he would have done it easily. its worth noting the things he was saying, darn outright socialist by uncle sam standards and he won 20 states and almost toppled clinton. if the democrats are to ever be relevant again in the rust belt states they would be wise to follow a path closely aligned to what BS was preaching, but that's 4 years away and the world might be like gotham city by then.

Rabbits68, Thu 10 Nov 2016 22:19

Didn't take long......

Donald Trump goes on a fact-finding visit to Israel.
While he is on a tour of Jerusalem he suffers a heart attack and dies.

The undertaker tells the American Diplomats accompanying him, 'You
can have him shipped home for $50,000, or you can bury him here, in
the Holy Land for just $100.'

The American Diplomats go into a corner and discuss for a few minutes.
They come back to the undertaker and tell him they want Donald
shipped home.

The undertaker is puzzled and asks, 'Why would you spend $50,000 to
ship him home, when it would be wonderful to be buried here and you
would spend only $100?

The American Diplomats replied, 'Long ago a man died here, was buried
here, and three days later he rose from the dead.

We just can't take the risk!'

Sheepdog, Thu 10 Nov 2016 23:10

Turkman writes "Back to the books, Doggo...all over the shop on all counts there."

Why do you say that , old timer? Are you saying The Democrats didn't list waay to the right in the 1990s?

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 01:17

Wow! What a whacky topsy turvy world we live in when it's patriot Pauline asking for a pardon for Julian Assange!!

Can it get any stranger?

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 06:36

Just crazy, eh Sypkan? The way things currently stand, how can anyone can throw their lot in with one political party? Things that you firmly belive in this year will become your politico antithesis the next, and vice versa.

Bold move by Pauline, could very well come back to bite her.

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 06:41

Velocity Johnno: "Would anyone like to hazard a prediction of the result if it were Bernie Sanders running instead of Hillary?"

Few pundits saying he would've won but there's no way of knowing. I mean, up to 24 before polls opened Hillary was a shoo-in.

That said, while Bernie had the millenial and college vote I strongly doubt wider America has the stomach for his brand of democratic socialism.

floyd, Fri 11 Nov 2016 07:39

Does anyone else see the irony of Joe Hockey being our diplomatic bridge between Australia and the US?

Joe Hockey, our failed and incompetent treasurer, who baited our car manufacturers into leaving the country and therefore putting up to 200,000 Australians out of work and thereby creating potential rust belts in South Australia and in Geelong and Broadmeadows in Victoria now having to work with an American administration with a (pre election) policy platform of bring those rust belt manufacturing jobs "back home".

I could go on about Hockey, a most unlikable leaner, but I'll leave it at that.

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 08:30

There's no way Bernie would have won. The element of the American psyche that elected trump wouldn't stand for it. Remember it's the white working class in the Midwest. Having had plenty beers and random conversations with people from that demographic there's no question the 'don't tell me what to think and say' attitude is prevalent and powerful. It's genuinely not necessarily racist or anything just a notion of freedom from other peoples' opinions and attitudes. In some ways it's also just like the kind of blow back we saw on this site when blindboy called out nick3's homophobic joke.

Plenty of Americans are sick of being told what to think etc. Now add to that, being told what to pay for, there's no way it would have gotten up. By way of example I was once sitting with some friends and they'd just got an $800 bill for blood tests (standard ones, nothing more than routine). After stressing about how they'd pay for it and talking about that they couldn't believe that would be 'free' in oz, having paid for it via Medicare, they wanted universal health care, they said. It's got its problems but it's pretty sweet, I said.

We talked about how it works here, for a few minutes, and I reckon It was within maybe another five minutes that they were angrily, and I mean really angrily, declaring they'd never be prepared to pay for the health care of some guy they knew (who was a drug using lazy dole bludger in their eyes) because fuck that my money is for me and my family not sponges like him. And with that, the declaration for universal health care was gone. They liked the system they had better because they got to decide what they spent their money on and no one from Washington or wherever could tell them how they had to spend it.

Bernie would have appealed to the same people who voted for Hilary but the swing voters who put trump in wouldn't have accepted being told what they had to pay for, which would benefit other people instead of just themselves let alone what to think and say by the progressives. I don't reckon anyway.

Quick edit. Apparently Bernie isn't ruling out a tilt once again in four years as a 79 year old. Obviously he knows his constituents better than me so we might get to find out...

velocityjohnno, Fri 11 Nov 2016 08:32

Yes I have a feeling Bernie would have done really well. Similarly this may explain Corbyn hanging on in the UK.

I am puzzled why the traditionally labour-oriented parties have thrown their core constituency under a bus in the last 25 years - the (in Western nations) white working class. If you look at the wholesale stripping out of manufacturing (from value-adding comes wealth), I am surprised no-one really stood up for the people working in it, but rather both political sides stripped it bare, from many angles. From importation of cheaper labour, all the way to remaining silent on currency manipulation and "one way" FTAs... And then insulted these people with politics of guilt, colour, gender etc that were completely alien to most of them. Chickens coming home to roost now.

Being of more of a libertarian, even conservative bent these days, I've found a decent explanation for the brick bat that has hit both Cameron's establishment in the UK, and now the Dems in the US...

"And while I’ve never considered myself much of a right winger, being more of a libertarian bent, I have found myself increasingly pushed and marginalized by the “enlightened and progressive” amongst you into the same camp with all sorts of deplorables, regardless of where they lived and what they called themselves. Nationalists, alt righters, anarchists, constitutionalists and so on and so forth all made for strange bedfellows but an effective team. Working on the premise that the enemy of my enemy is my friend we have all found common ground. We have you to thank for that. By pushing, badgering, harassing, marginalizing and insulting us on a regular basis you created something new. And it crushed you at the ballot box."


Michael Moore also picked it, check his youtube talk to voters in Michigan I think. Its poignant to note Trump threatened Ford execs with a 35% tariff when they shipped their small car production to Mexico; contrast this with the Australian industry shutting down, protected by a (bipartisan agreed) paltry 5% tariff.

velocityjohnno, Fri 11 Nov 2016 08:39

Yes Floyd I'll never forget Hockey daring Holden to leave. wtf

There's still time for you all to get one last Australian Holden surf wagon before it's gone forever...

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 09:15

Reckon there's a bit of insight being offered on the whole 'deplorable' thing. Far as I can see, read, or hear, Trump threw down insults in the hundreds to Democrats and their constituents, none of which are being recalled now. Yet somehow the word deplorable is the insult of the election.

Can anyone make sense of that before I jump to conclusions?

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 09:42

I reckon it's all to do with velocityjohnnos quote above, totally relate to that

I don't particular like preppers, but unfortunately it seems most of us have developed more in common with them than Clinton's twisted perspective

It's tribalism, she denigrated anyone who doesn't share her perspective,

trump just played with political correctness

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 09:55

"It's tribalism, she denigrated anyone who doesn't share her perspective,

trump just played with political correctness"

Interesting perspective. Don't agree with it, you saying he didn't actually denigrate anyone?

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 09:58

She insulted an entire group, which is not on electorally or even generally (despite the potential accuracy), whereas he insulted specific individuals. It wasn't women who were fat pigs it was specific women. So long as enough people are prepared to ignore the implications of those insults about how he's prepared to address people, women or otherwise, he'll get a pass for that. And it seems people are willing to ignore it.

I don't see how Clinton's got a twisted perspective though. Looking at some of the stuff that trump supporters did say and are saying, it's pretty deplorable.

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:03


Good explanation but...

yocal, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:03

I agree that it's tribalism. The tribe HAS spoken (in the name of Democracy) and put their loudest namecaller on the national pedestal. Now those who were labelled 'deplorables' have their day of retribution and this is their catchcry - 'who's the deplorable now?'

Have a look at how smug all of the above Trump supporter's posts are after the win. Its not 'now we can advance the national interest for the better' it's 'how do you like these apples lefties?'

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:21

I too notice the double standards: a powerful white man calls it as he sees it and everyone maneuvers into  a position of acceptance, a white woman does the same and it's "playing identity politics", or denigration, or some other thing.

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:21

They are pretty deplorable from a certain perspective benski

But go look at today's polly article at the guardian, another top down belittling, as she does...

But read the comments, there's some well pointed out double standards going on to the hypocrisy of identity politics, it's totally pointless and unworkable when viewed objectively

Her whole argument is pathetic when you consider the same states voted Obama in for two terms

Trumps petty name's mean nothing, the way he pulls it off is, there is nearly always an element of truth to what he says, but the left is so busy wigging out to his words, and their preconceived (media mislead) perceptions of him they don't hear a word. His whole schick is cutting through the crap

Calling someone fat?.... meh...some of us would like to point out the kids are fat, not pointing it out seems to be half the problem

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:25

Your right stunet

But its a thirty year backlash to belittlement

White dudes have feelings too! Oppression is oppression no matter who's feeling it

Just like feminism the pendulum swings until it finds a balance... hopefully ...eventually...

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:37

Yeah, the pendulum swings, and really, I'm just throwing thoughts out there. Though I do find it curious, I've personally never been offended by a feminist, ever, and all the while the very people who tell us free speech is a birthright and we all should harden up are as prompt in their outrage as any other cohort.

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:48

You're gonna use 'deplorable' at every available opportunity, aren't you Benski?

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:51

I'm the same stunet. I don't see how white people are even close to being oppressed. Frankly I find it laughable and pathetic that it's even expressed that way. Oppression is systemic disadvantage. Being asked to change your language to reflec the ideals you believe in is not oppression. That's those around you exercising their free speech to hold you to your highest stated ideals.

Some of the early responses to fight back from this 'oppression' of being asked to treat people equally really are quite's a collection of stories and videos collected on twitter. No doubt a grain of salt required because there's no context but I doubt it's all made up. And while it's mostly white supremacist type crap there's also some nasty stuff going the other way.

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:52

haha! Yeah I'll let it go now.

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 10:58

You guys talk nicer than me so maybe it doesn't apply but the best thing I've seen for understanding men and women came from Facebook, yes Facebook sorry...

Women communicate with friends through compliments and talking each other up, while men communicate by giving each other shit and cutting their mates down, ...both are lying

Modern feminism's whole gig is kerbing man talk, culminating in safe spaces and trigger warnings, as that spectator article points out, not all feminist agree with this path, besides being totally self indulgent, I think more people are concerned with the social impacts of such thinking

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:05

It's not reality oppression, more so oppression of opinion

And now we are having a reckoning of the 'experts' opinions and their fruit, and the people don't like what they see

The experts have fucked it up, so now the deplorables are saying we told you so, but no one was listening

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:08

"Women communicate with friends through compliments and talking each other up, while men communicate by giving each other shit and cutting their mates down, ...both are lying"

That's classic! As in it's funny.

But I disagree with the last part sypkan. Modern feminism, as far as I can tell, is fully supportive of man talk. They support men being men and talking about manly things and issues relevant to being a bloke in today's day and age. They probably don't support men joking about grabbing women by the pussy or even more benign jokes that belittle women, but that's what I'm talking about too.

If we are as supportive of equality as we say we are, maybe we need to think a little more about what we joke about etc. If it's normal and fine for a bloke to make jokes about women's competence at work, that's going to alienate, to a small extent, many women who might be at that work. Not always but some of them.

I make jokes like that all the time with my wife. But the joke is actually about the attitude towards women not the driving ability of women or whatever the context.

Trigger warnings is just another name for how the news warns you that in this report you'll see a starving Ethiopian kid with flies buzzing around his dead mother, or in this report you'll see someone get shot (i.e. and a warning this report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing). It's been a part of being polite for decades. I can't understand what's wrong with that, because it's just being nice to people to accommodate any issues they might have, isn't it?

Sorry I'm rambling on a bit and filling the pages today, I should get to doing stuff, but I'm keen to hear the reply if my walls of text aren't too dulling!

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:13

"It's not reality oppression, more so oppression of opinion"

Yeah I dig that. Exactly what I was getting at with my post earlier today. Sick of being told what to think. I see that's the issue but I don't buy it or I don't accept it as the actual case.

I can't let go of the notion that people aren't being told what to think so much as not liking having their claimed ideals of equality contrasted with their language and the subtle remnants of support for inequality that it contains.

sypkan, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:42

Again you're correct benski, but as always, in anything, there is a spectrum

You are totally correct most women have become more accommodating of men talk, realising they cannot clip us into the perfect man, and I think most people are now finding better balances, but I've got to say there's still a significant transformation when the women aren't around as the hen pecked release.

Trigger warnings in university lectures though benski?
It's university snowflake, this isn't school

I'm more concerned about the no plat forming, seriously when a womans department lobby to ban Germaine Greer (a godmother of feminism)from presenting at their university something is going a little awry.

I'm sure all these things come from all the wings of feminism without consensus, but the overall theme I'm getting is control of narrative and a very inorganic imposed development to social norms

But you're right we could all be a little nicer

batfink, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:44

Wonderful to read all your thoughts. Finding myself just deeply interested in perspectives, but I won't buy any explanation on the grounds that nobody really knows, we are all in a hall of mirrors and can only imagine what others may be thinking, but those others are no less alien in their thinking than we are to say, an amoeba. It's just unknowable, but it's definitely interesting and I'll follow this rabbit down some very deep holes before it's all over.

A few thoughts in no particular order.

Cheer up, it may not be as bad as you suspect. Trump may do some very good things, as Keating points out (god love him!) better relations with Russia can only be a good thing. Drawing back NATO and the american reach of power could be a great thing. Being less interested in holding China back due to some post-war analagous fear of the yellow hordes may also be hugely positive.

Clinton, although clearly the better candidate, also had huge baggage, none more than her name. She has been as much a part of the establishment as anyone during the period where the middle and the poor in America got fucked over. Add to that the dynastic Bush-Clinton-Bush- fuck-over of america, it was always going to be hard to go back to that. Look how Jeb Bush did in the republican primaries. He should have won the nomination by a landslide and he was the first one out.

Would Bernie have done better? Don't know but I was hoping to find out. That was a great insight Benski into the American mentality on universal health care. They are so, so, so demonstrably culturally fucked in that way. But don't downplay how well his narrative may have gone. He would have been talking directly to those people who voted for Trump, telling then what they knew, which was that the big corporates and the best government that money can buy were exactly the people who screwed them over, and he was going to screw them back. It would have played well.

Clinton, of the Bill variety, is hugely complicit in the fucking over of those people who have done it toughest, relaxing regulations which directly led to the GFC, and a host of other deregulations as well as NAFTA which directly led to their jobs being lost. Hillary was there, she couldn't deny that legacy.

As for those deplorables comment, well, I'll accept the argument of double standards but I don't buy it. Put a label on someone and blame yourself if they then turn it around and wear it with pride.

Finally, those who voted for Trump may be deplorables, they are almost certainly economically and politically illiterate, but their choice was not dumb. I won't say that their thinking wasn't dumb, because thinking doesn't come into it. Like all democracies they don't vote with their brain, they vote with their guts. We kid ourselves, and nowhere more than 'the Left', that we vote according to our interests based on rational assessments. Like the study of economics which relied on this fictitious rational player - Homo Economicus - the assessment of political leanings is not a rational choice.

These people were essentially left with a Hosbon's choice, you can go with the candidate who is essentially guaranteed to continue the status quo (Clinton) even if she is supposedly of the Left, that same group that has been bending you over and having its way with your arse for decades, or you can vote for the disruptor. Throwing the Hail Mary pass with seconds left to play and your behind by 6 is not an irrational decision.

So they may be deplorable and they may be dumb, and they may not be, but their choice was not necessarily so. Although racism and sexism are always part of the mix, and we are hardly innocent in Australia on that score, I don't buy that Trump was only elected by racists and sexists.

And if you think this was a win for the Republicans, you've forgotten that the first group of people that Trump fucked over was the entire Republican Party. He is no more one of them than I am an aardvark. No way does this forestall the demise of the old narrative of the GOP. They are also gone as a political force. The name may stay, but their entire paradigm has been shat upon by something very big.

I'm quite surprised at my overall reaction. I'm much more upbeat than I thought I could be about a Trump win. There was always a bright side here, whichever way it went a duplicitous turd was going to be flushed away. Perhaps I am most happy to see so many pundits completely bamboozled. I read their analysis and so much of it is wishful thinking, projection and utter bullshit. Perhaps I am just enjoying looking at the embarrassment of the King realising he has no clothes.

This is a worthy article. I like this guy, wrote a great piece earlier this year about how the baby boomers are fucking everyone over. This is also good.

talkingturkey, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:47

Hold the phones! I should've got a trigger warning that there was some reasoned and reasonable debate on this here thread! Where's Disco-Stu? Actually, what was Disco-Stu?

Anyway, Ol' Bernie has made a statement:

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

zenagain, Fri 11 Nov 2016 11:59

Excellent post Batfink.

Actually, well done chaps. Great to hear the different perspectives while keeping things reasonably civil.

stunet, Fri 11 Nov 2016 12:59

Will he overturn Roe vs Wade as he said he would? That'd be a devestating blow to American women, and it'd also show how short-sighted he is. He's promoting himself as a 'Laura Norder' guy, yet an unintended effect of Roe vs Wade was a marked drop in urban crime.

Ironically it was Bill Clinton who took the credit for the drop in crime till a few forensic economists traced things back to '73.

So not only would Trump reverse generational change in women's rights he'd set the alarm clock for another increase in urban crime down the track.

Noel, Fri 11 Nov 2016 12:59

Considering the Brexit result and the Trump result I reckon the World has dodged a bullet. Or to use another phrase, the herd has turned back from the precipice.

But heres hoping they both manage to be enacted. Stay tuned.

talkingturkey, Fri 11 Nov 2016 13:21

Zen, what do you do in Japan again?

Anyway, kinda like Batfink, I've been surprised by my levels of upbeatedness in the wake of the decision. But having said that, my 'levels' do oscillate wildly. Especially, when you read of who he may appoint in his administration. For example, say, Newt friggin' Gingrich!

Now, I've been a bit of a student of the US political scene for many years. And especially during the Clinton years. The Clinton-Gingrich regime years. The NAFTA, GATT, WTO years. The de-regulation, 'workfare', 'prison-industrial complex' years. The friggin' Third friggin' Way years! If nothing else, chuck THAT in your search engine if need be (minus the pejoratives).

Forget Clinton's dick tricks, he could've/should've been impeached for a range of actually important things (well, maybe impeached is a tad strong)! Just one example: his so-called "Telecommunications Act". See where that's got them all. No, another, and added to that de-regulation disaster: his punting of the move to re-introduce the "fairness doctrine" that Reagan repealed in 1987 (which years later he admitted he should've done so)! Sheesh! Be-google away. Oh yeah, chuck "Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act" & "workfare" in there too.

Yeah, I was a student of the times, figuratively and literally, but I was also a participant here. Culminated in the Sept 11 event (the year before the other Sept 11 event) in Melbourne. After Howard's subsequent re-election, and the manner in which he did it, I then fucked off overseas and didn't come back till he was long gone.

Anyway, too much bio from me, Newt friggin' Gingrich! And this guy?! Myron Ebell!

My upbeatedness is fading faster than the poor old environment! Find a happy place, find a happy place...

velocityjohnno, Fri 11 Nov 2016 13:52

Yes this is a good discussion. The big one of the 90's was the removal of Glass-Steagal, the removal of the deposit/investment division of banking. It led to some spectacular implosions. Behaviour went far beyond this and ended up with MF Global's demise... Edit: and before that, TARP (look it up). I've seen one comment describe this election as the '3rd vote on TARP' - the anger of the people after it was jammed through. TARP and QE, 'mark to unicorn' accounting... we're still in it... sigh

& yes Stu I remember that economist who linked crime rates over time with Roe vs Wade and the criminals who were "never born"

batfink, Fri 11 Nov 2016 14:18

Of course, all of the previous comments about Trump are predicated on the fact that I don't live in America. I'd be farking worried if I did. That twitter feed you posted was scary, Benski. On the other hand, it's probably like that every day in America.

Lots of lovely people there, but that place is going to hell in a handbasket.

batfink, Fri 11 Nov 2016 14:23

Re that forensic economist that linked Roe versus Wade to a drop in crime rates down the track, wasn't that from the Freakonomics guys? I'm sure I read that in the book. It's a really interesting and plausible theory.

But as it happens, some other scientist came up with a much better explanation. The drop in crime rates coincided (with an 18 year lag) to the decision to remove lead from petrol. As lead had been shown in labs to cause various test animals to become highly aggressive, it was a much better explanation for the drop in crime.

Imagine where America would be if they still had leaded petrol?

talkingturkey, Fri 11 Nov 2016 14:26

Yes, the Glass-friggin'-Steagall repeal! Add it to Bill's shit-list. The man from Hope-less.

indo-dreaming, Fri 11 Nov 2016 17:21

There is something weird about people protesting on the streets about Trumps victory.

These people sure like to exercise their right to free speech, but they don't want to live in a democracy???

benski, Fri 11 Nov 2016 17:30

Saw this on Twitter earlier...looks like everyone wants to be able to protest but no one wants the other side to actually do it

Sheepdog, Fri 11 Nov 2016 18:21

Seems like men ganging up on women is ok if you are a Clinton supporter......

zenagain, Fri 11 Nov 2016 18:33

TT, I own an English conversation school (Eikaiwa) and a translating business. Mostly translating business and legal contracts into English and vice versa, but we've done everything from menus to tv subtitles.

Rivetting stuff:)

indo-dreaming, Fri 11 Nov 2016 19:46

freeride76, Fri 11 Nov 2016 20:10

Sheepdog: "But Trump has also decimated the right... He's forever changed the republicans, "

Doggy, I've mostly agreed with you but this is poppycock. Trump just delivered the senate, the house and the Presidency to the Rebublicans.

Repealing any kind of healthcare system, massive tax cuts for the wealthy, building a wall, stacking the supreme court with ultra-conservative judges, massive military build up, trade war with China, increase in privatised prisons and aggressive policing (i am the law and order candidate), support of Israel and rejection of the 2 state solution, decrease in access to abortion, massive increase in military spending, encouraging spread of nuclear weapons, weakening international institutions like NATO, rejection of Paris Treaty on climate change, religious vice-pres who rejects evolution, promise to "bomb the shitt" out of ISIS, strengthening libel laws to criminalise journalists, repeal of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street consumer protection reforms, repeal or renege on the nuclear deal with Iran etc etc etc......

He just fcuking delivered signed, sealed and gift-wrapped every rabid right wing republicans most fervent fantasy wish list and the political power to achieve it. Every republican who wasn't stupid enough to stick his neck out and oppose Trump is laughing all the way to the bank. Those stupid enough to oppose him, like Paul Ryan, will find their careers cut suddenly short. Trump is a great grudge holder and very, very skilled at getting even with those on his shitlist.

Big winners: military industrial complex, private companies dealing in prisons/security, arms and gun manufacturers, big pharma/insurance companies, the wealthy and wall street corporations, big banks.

Trump's cabinet is going to have Sarah Palin, Chris Christy, Rudy Guliani and Newt Gingrich.

Bend over America: you're about to get the real, hard-core red in tooth and nail capitalism you always dreamed of.

Sheepdog, Fri 11 Nov 2016 21:12

Fr you write "Doggy, I've mostly agreed with you but this is poppycock. "

Geez that's a bit rough....... lol

Mate, he has turned them on their heads.... GW Bush publicly refused to vote for him..Ryan aint going nowhere.... The cornerstone right wing ideal of free markets and free trade is under seige with Trumps plans for tarifs...... Just as the right here is splintering in Australia before our very eyes, it will continue to happen there, too..... Tarifs and trade protection is of the left.... So any party that practices those beliefs can call themselves "right wing", but they aren't.

The private civil war within the party will continue...... Trump will morph into the elite, what he has always aspired to be.... The old money folk have never accepted him..... They will pull out their cheque books and say "how much?".... Trump being a money man will name his price, as every man has a price.... By year 2, maybe 3, as he continues to renege on his bold promises, the working class man and woman will be seething.... You aint seen anger yet.....
He has already reneged on mass deportations..... He has reneged on pulling out of South Korea.... And he's not even president yet. Plus with the modern internet, which has been touched on somewhere here, Trump is not going to have a similar ride to Reagan....
It's gonna be veeeeery interesting...

happyasS, Fri 11 Nov 2016 21:57

ive learned from the 20 something generation that they are ok with the new way of promising everything prior to the election and then breaking it all. and further that they are ok with trump changing his tune every 5 seconds and then providing little coherent policy.

wtf. guess im just getting old. i thought elections were supposed to be about our future, not an exercise in popularism and entertainment.

freeride76, Sat 12 Nov 2016 06:42

Trump has always been a man who has said whatever is expedient at the time to gain power or advantage.

Yes, it was a hostile takoever and a broom through the republican party but now he has delivered everything every right-winger could have possibly dreamed of. Especially socially. Paul Ryan will be quietly disappeared, Bush will go underground.....this is Trumps party/plaything now, to do with as he wants.

He'll do whatever he damm well wants with the economy now: the increase in military spending will put poor white people in military jobs.....same as it ever was.
Trade War? There'll probably be some puff and bluster but nothing that puts real money at risk.
News yesterday was there'll probably be lots of suits from corporations bought into the fold: Goldman Sachs bankers, oil company executives etc etc.

That kind of economic program: massive military and infrastructure spending by the state to put people in a stagnant economy back to work and a "Fortress" foreign policy is not new, it's been tried before. It's called National Socialism.

Trump will blend this national socialism with the most virulent guns/we are the masters of the earth christians capitalism the world has ever seen.

It's going to be quite a ride.

Hopefully now, at the least, we can look at the US, as Paul Keating did and say: we have a better society than the US.
That might stop or slow some of the slavish devotion seen in a lot of australian society to emulating the USA.
We need to distance ourselves from these crazy cnuts, not copy them.

ps, the Neoliberalism, free trade project is not a right wing ideal. It's been enthusiastically embraced by both sides of politics.

indo-dreaming, Sat 12 Nov 2016 08:35

Australian politics and economy, all things middle east terrorism, ISIS, all things global, climate change, Ingenious Australians, border control/refugees, climate change, China etc.

And now experts on American politics and economy and what the future will bring...Okay.

I have no idea, but my bets are like most politicians he wont do what he says or be able to do what he says, so basically the future is unknown.

floyd, Sat 12 Nov 2016 09:07

@freeride, I agree with you on what Trump will do with the economy, but the question needs to be asked with all that spending where will the money come from given he has also promised massive tax cuts? Reagan and the Bush presidents all cut taxes and increased spending and the economy ended up a basket case each time. The economy is still flat so he hasn't got any wriggle room until he starts running up a massive deficit. Now Trump is well experienced in bankruptcy, is that where America is heading? A bankrupt America in recession or possibly depression isn't going to be good for the rust belt but the wealthy will be fine.

Following on from what Sheepdog was saying I think Trump's election does show the gapping holes in the political ideology of the right. Is Trump the best they have got? Really? and are his stated social and economic policies what the right really aspires to? If is is all true I'm thinking that as a political movement its nearing its end because the natural consequences of it enacting its policies will deem it unelectable. Ordinary people will ultimately really suffer and they will revolt hopefully only at the ballot box.

The recurring question I have about the right is how far will they push their discredited trickle down economic theory into to policy before even they (along with the rest of the world) see its flaws? They need not look any further than economic power houses of the world to see how and where corporate and personal tax rates should be. Taxes in America (and here) should be increasing not falling.

So agree with what Paul Keating is saying right now but then again I wanted AU to distance itself from Uncle Sam for a long time

tonybarber, Sat 12 Nov 2016 09:49

Yep Indo, very much unknown. many of the points you mentioned above are not directly connected but indirectly connected. We will get more information once we know his cabinet. But the scenario is he has both houses and a presence of actually achieving something.
Let stop this 'whingerama' and see what happens. For us, it would seem Turnbull is of the Obama mould and will go. Interesting times, gents.

Sheepdog, Sat 12 Nov 2016 14:22

FR writes "ps, the Neoliberalism, free trade project is not a right wing ideal.

Sorry bud..... You are absolutely wrong.... Google right wing ideology, reaganomics, thatcherism... Just because the "left" has lurched to the right doesn't make free market economics "not" right wing

blindboy, Sat 12 Nov 2016 18:52

I think I made a prediction back there somewhere, but I'll say it again. Even money Trump is impeached within 2 years.

Sheepdog, Sat 12 Nov 2016 19:11

If Blind boy makes another comment in this thread, it's an admission by him that he's a douche (bahahahahahahaha).

discostu, Sat 12 Nov 2016 21:22

Hey there poofters.

What Stu the media got it wrong on Trump? NO they didn't. The media have got it wrong everyday of the week of every month for years now. Left wing pretenders don't count for shit in the real world. No credibility the media have, and when Trump sets up Trump TV, the influence of the tards will be close to zero. Journalists? They cant even spell the word.

Unintended consequences Stu? what bollocks! Lets reverse that. So Clinton and Obama have intentionally fcked up the west. what utter mindless illogical claptrap you spruik.

Free, you better go back to rehab to gain some coherence.

yorkessurfer, Sat 12 Nov 2016 23:36


sypkan, Sat 12 Nov 2016 23:42

“Our allies in the region were our largest problem in Syria. The Turks were great friends... [and] the Saudis, the Emirates, etcetera. What were they doing?.... They poured hundreds of millions of dollars and tens of tons of weapons into anyone who would fight against Assad — except that the people who were being supplied, [they] were al-Nusra, and al-Qaeda, and the extremist elements of jihadis who were coming from other parts of the world.”

sypkan, Sun 13 Nov 2016 00:07

Revenge of the deplorables

sypkan, Sun 13 Nov 2016 08:11

Now we are getting somewhere... but geez talk about having to hold a gun to someone's head just to make them lsten

"For too many in the poor neighbourhoods of the west, middle-class liberals have become like their bosses at work. They tell you what you can and can’t think. They warn that you must accept their superiority and you will be in no end of trouble if you do not."

I don't think you need to be poor to feel like this

sypkan, Sun 13 Nov 2016 08:14

Huffington post

how saudi wahhabism is the fountainhead of islamist terrorism

can't post link...the conspiracy runs deep... humour I hope...because this website currently runs like a dog

indo-dreaming, Sun 13 Nov 2016 09:15

Is there an Aussie that could do a do a Donald Trump?

An anti type politician, dont think a super rich business man in Australia would cut it though, we would be after someone that is known but likeable and tells it how it is, down to earth and well spoken, a bit intelligent, probably need to be from a background of either an actor, TV presenter, or musician.

Take the best of the left and right and sit just a little to the right with a nationalistic take on things.

Paul Hogan would have been perfect but getting a bit old plus i think lives in USA and had that tax problem a few years back.

stunet, Sun 13 Nov 2016 09:24

Aside from the super rich bit you just described Malcolm Turnbull.

And fact is, any political outsider would have to be independently wealthy to make headway in a world where they'd be getting absolutely no favours.

sypkan, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:07

Dick smith

He just don't have that charisma trump has

He also seems to be losing the battle with age

floyd, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:12

For starters we don't have a president here in Australia. The closest position to the US' president is our Governor General and mostly the people to hold that position have been exceptional Australians who have upheld very high standards while in that office.

If we did have a presidential style of government here (and thank god we don't as the Westminster system, while imperfect seems more bullet proof to US type highs/lows) someone like Twiggy Forrest might fit your bill @Indo, a mixed bag but his heart seems to be in the right place when it comes to Aboriginal welfare and he does speak clearly and not in pollie speak.

I wonder if people's unrest with Australian politics at the moment would be solved if all sides of politics stopped preselecting these people that are groomed from a very early age into the "profession". Ben Chifley left school at 15 to work in the railways and he ended up the Prime Minister. Paul Keating was also an early school leaver who worked in the real world before entering politics.

indo-dreaming, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:21

Hmmm Malcolm Turnbull to me and i think most Aussies is just another politician.

Yeah sure Dick Smith, i think he ticks most of the boxes.

Yeah i know we don't have a president, but i still think a huge majority of Australians vote based on emotion and if they like the leader of the political party or not.

sharkman, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:21

Is there an Aussie who could do a Donald Trump?

We already have Pauline Hanson , and one nation , which are gaining more and more support everyday in Australia.

If elections were held again now , O N , would probably pick up another 4 seats , but in the oncoming election in Queensland it looks like One Nation would control the State as the Labor Party the LNP are about even and O N will have balance of power .

so Australia has a version of Trump , not as intelligent as him when you put here fish and chip shops against his towers , but maybe Aussies are just dumber than seppo's?

sypkan, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:23

Spot on Floyd

And twiggy would be way better than my suggestion

I'd almost be comfortable with twiggy as 'our trump', though he's a little low on that mysterious trait charisma, that may be ideal, as pointed out above, Australians wouldn't accept a wanker like trump

fitzroy-21, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:28

Clive Palmer had a crack at getting there............that worked well for him and the country.........

Sheepdog, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:47

Yeah, Fitz, Clive had a go...... But something we have that's a national pastime here, that the USA doesn't have ( well not to our extent)?
Tall poppy syndrome.... That's why the only real Trump equivalent we have is happy sitting on the sidelines throwing barbs..... Who is that you may ask........ Well.... Think of all the similarities between Trump and this person......... He's rich..... He's outrageous.... He has said some shocking things..... He has displayed misogyny, and openly attacked PM's..... Has a massive media show and his ratings are huge.... He was succesful in his own right beofre his media days.... Is of the conservative flavour..... Is a master at public speaking.......
If you can't guess who I'm talking about, you should die of shame.

sypkan, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:51

And Brutus said tall poppy syndrome was bad

Good and bad in all...

zenagain, Sun 13 Nov 2016 10:51

Guy Sebastian?

happyasS, Sun 13 Nov 2016 11:20

australian's criticise and ridicule american politics (and our own) because unlike americans we spot bullshit from a mile off.

Sheepdog, Sun 13 Nov 2016 11:44

No, Zen.... Not Guy Sebastian..... bahahahahahahahahaha

floyd, Sun 13 Nov 2016 12:08

Pauline Hanson is mostly about FNQ. Different universe up there, like the deep south in the US. Sure she has some traction elsewhere but her base is and always will be the good ole boys from FNQ.

happyasS, Sun 13 Nov 2016 13:05

sheepdog, im guessing "died of shame" is the clue.

Sheepdog, Sun 13 Nov 2016 18:53

Happyass, I couldn't help myself......... "Ditch the witch" and "Ju-liar" couldn't be formed into a workable clue lol

Sheepdog, Sun 13 Nov 2016 19:04

Anyhooooooo, if these dipshits protesting in the USA could all go home, and allow the mainstream media to not have a 24/7 leading story, that'd be great..... They'd have to fill the news cycle with something else - like Trump reneging on Obama care, or Trump reneging on pulling tropps out of South Korea, or Trump now saying chasing Hilary is not a priority, or Trump putting leading members of the swamp in his team, or Trump putting 3 of his children and a son in law in his team ( who needs the Bush or Clinton family right?), or Trump reneging on a wall (might be a fence now), or Trump backtracking on expelling 11 million people......
Gonna be some REALLY angry Trump supporters within 6 months......

Blowin, Sun 13 Nov 2016 19:44

Twiggy likes paying tax about as much as Trump.

Mining tax , Twiggy ?

zenagain, Sun 13 Nov 2016 20:27

This was sent to me. I have no idea who this bloke is and there's no denying that it's totally scripted but it doesn't mean he's wrong.

stunet, Sun 13 Nov 2016 20:42

Twiggy Forrest? Yeah...nah.

The little woman - now that we live in a post-insult world I can say that - worked with him for a while and nah, definetely nah.

Could say much, much more...

indo-dreaming, Sun 13 Nov 2016 20:55

Yeah Zen I saw that yesterday ....all so true.

stunet, Sun 13 Nov 2016 21:07

...and Zen, seen that vid once before and got dizzy then too; arms wavin', camera zoomin', the host bug eyed and freakin' out.

It's a plausible argument, has some merit, but no way does it tell all the story. For one, he says the left should open dialogue with the 'deplorables', but whereabouts are these groups of people meeting? What common media do they use? And remember, the largest media outlets are politically on the right. For other views, the world is fragmenting and cohorts are breaking off into their own isolation chambers getting their news and views from publications that echo their own thoughts - except for Swellnet, of course, broad church that we have here. Trump is as much a symptom of media fragmentation as anything else.

Also, small bone to pick. One part of his argument seems to be that the left use names to stereotype or demean, yet I've read the term 'urban elites' eleventy-hundred times this week. What about 'champagne socialist'? Or just left wing wanker? All of them seem like people of different worldviews hurling a few insults. And why, when the Western world has been inexorably moving to the right for forty years, does the left have to concede this fault? The right is winning, remember? Has done since Reagan/Thatcher. Trump is more about chickens voting for KFC than the left not using nice words.

Anyway, reckon much of this argument should be put on ice for a year or two and we'll see just how happy those 'chickens' are with Trump then.

Coaster, Sun 13 Nov 2016 21:24

Stu, they all have a skeleton or two in the closet. Except, er, John Howard.
Sheepdog, until you got to the last few clues it could have been any of the shock jocks.

zenagain, Sun 13 Nov 2016 22:46

Agree with what you say for the most part Stu and Blowin.

I think people are talking more than ever, it's just that people seem to be less inclined to listen these days.

Blowin, Sun 13 Nov 2016 23:19

The name calling from the left isn't the problem, it's the attempt at silencing dissent through shame .

Urban elites and champagne socialists are just petty insults .whilst calling people xenophobic, rascist and that's flat out denigration . Less a swipe and more of a wholesale slur on your character.

As you said yourself, Stu , the left used to be about the working class whereas now it ignores and denigrates them in support of " humanity " as you coined it .

As in anyone that's not white or working class.

Shortens statement today about supporting Australians for Australian jobs over immigrant workers was a step in the right direction.

It's as though they're paying attention all of a sudden.

Sheepdog, Sun 13 Nov 2016 23:41

Coaster, I dont know if Ray Hadlee was all that succesful before his media days.... I think Media has been his success......
I also think the "died of shame" really was a dead give away. Cheers, man.

sypkan, Mon 14 Nov 2016 00:54

actually they all have skeletons in their closet...except corbyn and sanders...they're about the only boring stalwarts left standing after a period of appraisal surrounding the panama papers and the like.

twiggy is not my ideal, Just saying if we're gonna have our own little anti tax paying, populist non politician I'll take twiggy over hanson anyday, especially because of his record with aboriginals and engaging them in the real economy

I almost posted that vid yesterday, but figured I'd made my position pretty clear. I think the vid is spot on...of course.

when did it become an insult to call someone a lefty?

this is aimed at no one in particular, but it has become increasingly clear to me, on here, and especially in guardian comments, that people take this as an insult these days even if you leave out the 'wanker' bit, and people take reall offence, justifying their position and shit, distancing themselves, explaining the desth of left and right etc....snowflake generation? political correctness gone mad? breitbart becoming cool?

most right wing people don't seem to go into this death spiral of distancing themselves and self justification when confronted. I can see chardonnay socialist as being mildly offensive, as it pins someona as being bourgeois in a system of thought that condemns that class but seriously offensive?

these terms use nice words (mainly) to portray an image, and point out contradictions and stereotypes. just sounds exactly like the left's passive agressive polite name calling routine they practice, whilst constantly calling for a more civil debate.

as to where do the deplorables hang out? should they be a nice neat accessible group? isn't their whole gig that they are a subversive group slipping through the cracks, lurking in the shadows? a mismatch of prepping rednecks and sophisticated libertarians and everything in between?

as to media, they have created their own, motivated by a disdain for the conventional sources, both left and right.

I hate to go there, but breitbart have nailed it. they've made a very contemporary, challenging, flashy and even glamorous site that captures the zietghiest of our time. not whole-ly, philosophically or comprehensively. but in terms of capturing the right mix of dubious internet conspiracies combined with just enough credible stories to keep the mystique, interest and questions flying.

if I was to compare it to a contemporary left group, 'get up' is the only one that springs to mind, and they come actoss as a bit of a mash up of hillsong meets mummy bloggers....not exactly cool...unless you're a non gender specific bisexual roller derby mum

the left seems to have missed the boat on that one

southey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 01:33

This guy does have some good points , his delivery suuuuckks though . Bloody geezers .
This is a better edit for those on FB .

sypkan, Mon 14 Nov 2016 01:53

I didn't even finish this article, it drifts into just the empty words on a page of some political analyst that's spent too much time crunching numbers rather than actually doing any work and making a plan for the future

and that is the problem with the clinton campaign, and possibly the left more broadly, it's all about obtaining and maintaining power at any cost, rather than standing up for what you believe in. it's about stopping those bastards from the other side unwinding your 'progress' rather than presenting ideas and opportunities.

so calculated and contrived, so cynical, so far removed from what politicians should be spending their time on it's criminal

while naomi Klein can come actoss as a bit naive and idealistic, she's right in saying the left needs some bigger picture, inspiring all encompassing goals

reading freerides post about trump was a little depressing, as he (rightly) pointed out trump's shortcomings. but as soon as someone starts whingeing about climate change and the environment and what a disaster trump is going to be. I just switch off, not purposely, the words just don't gel, because I look at clinton and what her ilk have achieved in this regard and just shake my head....empty rhetoric

the davos class has failed miserably and are very very poor living examples

as trump so astutely pointed've had 30 years to do something...but you didn't....too busy gaming the system...most uninspiring

freeride76, Mon 14 Nov 2016 10:23

It's absolutely astonishing that now that Trump has been elected no-one, not his own party, not the democrats, not the media has the slightest fcuking clue what he is going to do or what his presidency is going to stand for or accomplish.
Already he's backtracked, jellywobbled and equivocated on almost every position he took to the election.

This could be the biggest con ever perpetrated on a human population. A man who said whatever it took to get elected and then backtracked on everything.

Almost certainly the victory has been social and cultural.
Political correctness, identity politics, feminism, environmentalism: all crushed.

Doggy what I meant about neo-liberalism is that it is not exclusively a right-wing project/ideal. Centre-left governments have been just as enthusiastic, if not more, that centre-right, right wing governments.

In Aus it was the Hawke-Keating govts that really bought in the neo-liberal/free-trade reforms that transformed the australian economy. Keating remains the chief philosophical proponent of globalism/free trade in Aus.

I think in Australia we are incredibly lucky that our neo-liberalism was ushered in by a labour/centre-left goverment because unlike Thatchers England and Reagans America we at least had a govt committed to inclusion and fairness- one that maintained the safety net and advocated for workers rights and a fair share of the increased wealth. That is primarily why we are such a better country that either the UK or US.
No doubt though, the conservatives want us to go more the US way, god knows why, the USA is a basket case and no-one in their right mind should be using that as a template to build a society. Unless, of course , you are already wealthy and want the wealthy to get even more wealthy at the expense of the ordinary person.

Economically it looks like Trump is going to run the Reagan program. Tax cuts for the wealthy, massively increased military and infrastructure spending (financed by deficit spending) ......this will generate economic activity, no doubt. It's classic keynesian economics but it'll blow the US debt into the stratosphere. Thats not such a problem for the US, seeing as China is the biggest debt holder in US currency and Trump has already signalled where his main "enemy" is going to be.
In fact it changes the equation in favour of the the same way that if you owe the bank a thousand the bank owns you but if you owe the bank a million you own the bank.

floyd, Mon 14 Nov 2016 11:12

@FR, want to read this ..........

Ross Gittins is no bleeding lefty (its become fashionable here to use that term apparently), in fact he is the chief economics editor for the Herald.

By the way Jeff Kennett former Liberal (??) premier here in Vicco went way further than Thatcher ever went ... flogged off everything - power, water, gas, public land, tendered out public transport and sacked 50,000 public servants including thousands of nurses and teachers ...... rather ironic he now heads up Beyondblue.

stunet, Mon 14 Nov 2016 12:34

From Ross Gittins: "The bitter joke is that the populist promises he made to keep out Muslims, Mexicans and Chinese imports would do little to make the mug punters better off, whereas many of his more conventional economic policies will do much to further fatten the pockets of the 1 per cent the punters so resent."

Yeah but at least the punters will be free to say whatever they want.

talkingturkey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 12:58

Don't forget the guns, Stunts. The inalienable right to shoot shit up!


*chanted to the ol' 'IPA! IPA!' call to arms. Or is it 'USA! USA!'? I get confused. Yeeew!

stunet, Mon 14 Nov 2016 13:17

One of the better articles on the election I've read yet. Rather than punters who explain the win as being driven by a certain agenda this fella is far more tempered and takes in the scope of the event, including what may come next.

sharkman, Mon 14 Nov 2016 13:29

TT ,its funny when the right is seen as the gun toting majority , whereas the Hispanics and Blacks say come to our cities with your guns and we'll see who has the balls to use them!
what a great state of affairs , everyone is going to be pissed at Trump as he promised everyone something , and he can't deliver virtually any of his promises without serious compromise , already Fox news's illuminati , are seething at , "where and when the wall and lockup Clinton!" Ain't going to happen , so they are already pissed off , as is everybody else .

our great hope in Australia is that Pauline Hanson will be able to heal the rifts and govern for all the people , Just like the Don!

talkingturkey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 14:00

I agree. Sharkman. Was Don, was good.

Don Dunstan.

sypkan, Mon 14 Nov 2016 14:14

Is good!

Pity the pant suit didn't learn from the safari suit

talkingturkey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 14:21

Pink short-shorts and long walking socks please. Bernie in boardies?

talkingturkey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 14:45

And Sharkman, how's the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party result in the Orange by-election on Saturday? Poor old Nats. Giddy up.

tonybarber, Mon 14 Nov 2016 14:50

Ahh, Stu, the article you suggest makes too much sense and thought. I would say it also applies to Aus in many ways. Also relevant is the by election in NSW, Orange - 30% swing and yep, you can quests which way.

sypkan, Mon 14 Nov 2016 15:51

One of the deplorables

stunet, Mon 14 Nov 2016 16:22

...and an ex-Murdoch employee, makes the conservative vote a touch less surprising though I'm fully aware of her other traits that aren't in keeping with voter stereotype. Good on her for attempting to reconcile a difficult position.

freeride76, Mon 14 Nov 2016 17:07

I don't know Stu, I've read a few articles like that. (your Mitch Albom one above)

They are basically a hail mary, acknowledging Trump has been a massive cunt and ran one of the most divisive and apocalyptic campaigns in history but hey, lets hope he suddenly turns into a good bloke now he's got the presidency.
Just like George W Bush......yeah, what a great prez he turned out to be.

Also, comparing the reaction to Trump with the reaction to Obama, or even Reagan, is just bizarre. It's a comically poor analogy.
As he said: "I will state right here that I have no idea what will happen with a Trump presidency."
Thats not just the USA but the whole fucking world saying that, and that is truly scary when you see a guy with Trumps record and campaign rhetoric in a position of incredible power.

This is no time for the press to be backing off, as he insinuates, saying a hail mary and hoping Trump turns out OK. Now, more than ever, this guy needs to be under the full scrutiny of the press.

floyd, Mon 14 Nov 2016 17:30

freeride, I so agree with your last comments

tonybarber, Mon 14 Nov 2016 17:37

FR, I don't think you could scrutinise Trump any further than whats just been done over the last few months. The 'scare' is already tempered. The point of the article is that the press (and most) have failed to scrutinise Trump. The next couple of months will tell more as his puts the team together. Yep, a bit of 'Hail Mary', I suppose.

stunet, Mon 14 Nov 2016 18:05

What's your thoughts on voter motivation, Steve? That despite his 'apocalyptic' campaign he was the antidote to those sick of political correctness?

Rabbits68, Mon 14 Nov 2016 18:19

The reaction to Trump reneging on his election promises will be fascinating.

What's sad is the fact that once again, here is a politician literally saying whatever it takes to win office, winning, then changing their tune almost immediately. Same as it ever was?!?

talkingturkey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 18:30

Hah! Twiggy for PM?! C'mon, is that straight from the "Peter Dutton school of comedy"?

Freeride86, concur somewhat with your Hawke-Keating analysis. I said as much a coupla pages back. Though I think Keating was more reactive/proactive in the face of the rampant Thatcherism/Reaganomics wave, and the pressure it was bringing to bear globally. I've always liked to imagine if the Hawke/Keating era was swapped with Lil Winston's. Imagine if Howard had the reins in the time of his ideological idols! Fuck-a-duck!

It's been said before on here somewhere it'd be 'interesting' to see how the 'lucky country' holds up when the good luck runs out, and the LNP is in charge.

As for Trump, he really is Andy Griffiths in the old film 'A Face in the Crowd' or the protagonist in Sinclair Lewis' 1930s book 'It Can't Happen Here'.

Stephen Bannon as his “chief strategist and senior counselor”?! The world according to Breitbart. Huzzah! When Pauline or Pato gets in over here, they can have Andrew Bolt or John Roskam in the same role!


*chanted to the ol' 'USA! USA!' call to arms.

happyasS, Mon 14 Nov 2016 18:31

so the struggling middle class in the US choose a BILLIONAIRE to help solve their woes when a black man of relatively modest financial upbringing couldn't help them.

voter motivation stu? ill buy into that one. run a better popularity contest on social media and you win. a donation to the FBI might have had something to do with it too.

calling nick and disco, helllooooo??? been watching Trump backtrack? howd ya like them apples!

Sheepdog, Mon 14 Nov 2016 19:20

Happy writes "calling nick and disco, helllooooo??? been watching Trump backtrack? howd ya like them apples!"

Yep...... And Trump has just backed gay marriage, saying the supreme court has already settled it....
Ooohhhh man this is gonna be a fun ride, whatever way you look at it.

floyd, Mon 14 Nov 2016 19:56

Had nicko's tin foil hat on and had a premonition about Trump flip flopping from far left to far right policies depending on who he had just had a beautiful meeting with ....... the promotion bit, now how long do the neo-right tolerate this before they start looking sideways at Pence as "their" more reliable man. Just saying .... Donald needs to walk carefully here or not go near any grassy knolls, 4 years is a long time to get things always right right for the ultra right.

freeride76, Mon 14 Nov 2016 20:32

Stu, I think that was definitely part of it.

to be frank, it was low voter turnout that sunk Clinton, particularly amongst millenials.
Not that they would ever be as enthusiastic for her as they would be for Sanders but I honestly believe the FBI/Comey intervention at that crucial late stage was enough to shift the election result.

talkingturkey, Mon 14 Nov 2016 20:36

It's been strange to read the reactions from the pro-Trump brigade on here. I mean, they are REALLY pro-Trump for one. From Disco-Stu - the smart-ass - with his shouty EXCITED CAPITALS to Nick Nick Nick - the dumb-ass - with his usual dribble, it was all "fuck you" & "suck shit" & "how'd ya like those apples" & "lefties" this & "leftard" that etc etc etc.

I mean, leaving aside the weird equating of Clinton with the 'left' ('left of...' perhaps? like Turnbull is 'left of...' her?), was anyone on here pro-Hillary at all? Anyone??

InSypo's recent run on here looks like someone trying to find a justification, any justification, for thinking-peoples (after a fashion) having voted for him.

Trump's a master con-man. He's really nailed the 'con' in neo-con. Will there be guns at dawn and blood on the streets when he doesn't deliver nuttin' for the so-called 'deplorables'?


Ever seen how someone that's been righteously conned reacts when they get told they've been conned? I reckon the messenger usually cops it at first, not the con-man.

Imagine in the US when the 'other side' constantly lets the 'conned side' know they've been had and how badly...woooooo, boy!

Guns at dawn...blood on the streets...

& Trumpy skipping away to safety on an island somewhere...

freeride76, Mon 14 Nov 2016 20:38

"The point of the article is that the press (and most) have failed to scrutinise Trump."

Disagree Teebs. Point is they got the mood and sentiment of the voter wrong.

btw, I think the US media did an excellent job of scrutinising Trump and the Trump campaign. I read so many excellent pieces of reportage and analysis..........

What happened is that there is now a critical mass of people just completely disregarding the "mainstream media" ....and of course Trump encouraged that at every turn. Thus the emergence of a post-truth world where people get their news from their facebook feed which comes from people who think just like them.
Anything to the contrary is simply dismissed out of hand.

To me, that is the most pernicious development out of this and a true threat to democracy.

happyasS, Mon 14 Nov 2016 20:50

we have a fundamental problem when 140ish character twitter feeds form the basis of people opinions on a topic. truth can get distorted pretty quickly when popularism overides using brain cells.

Blowin, Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:05

Freeride - Amongst all the brilliant analysis of Trump , was there parallel analysis of Clinton ?

You realise that mainstream media was incredibly biased against Trump ?

Dont you think that the dismissal of opposing opinions that people find on Facebook was mirrored by the MSM?

freeride76, Tue 15 Nov 2016 06:26

I've been reading millions of words and hearing hours and hours of radio detailing Clintons Email scandals...heard so much about the cosying up to banks and the pay to play speeches and access from the Clinton Foundation.....

So, no, I don't think any reasonable person could say Clinton hasn't been scrutinised to the N'th degree by the american media.

For the majority of the primaries mainstream media coverage of Trump was exhaustive, free and mostly either positive or neutral. That was the biggest free leg up in election history: Trump had to spend zero on advertising, simply because the media was giving him so much air. He presented a daily car crash to the nation and the media fell over themselves to cover it.
It was only later, after his candidacy was secured that the media started giving him more of a forensic going over.

All in all though, there's no way Trump could complain about the media coverage.

indo-dreaming, Tue 15 Nov 2016 07:39

Not the amount of media coverage, but 99% of media i saw or heard was very negative bias anti Trump media and still is, so to be fair i think he has a right to complain.

I think in part this actually worked for him though, it pisses a lot of people off when the media are very bias, we get the same deal here with Pauline, i doubt she would be half as popular as she is if the media didn't report on her so much and in such a bias way.

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 07:56

Really, ID? 99%..?

You gotta spread your media load. Crikey, particularly Guy Rundle and Helen Razer, held a microscope up to Clinton, as did the Daily Review. If you're not arming yourself with a well balanced media intake you can't blame anyone else, it's all out there.

As for the negative portrayal of Trump: it was warranted IMO. After all America is founded on tolerant, pluralist values, they form the cultural buttress of the country, they're engraved on statues ("Give us your weak...") and enshrined in song ("land of the free"), so when a preseidential candidate deviates from those values it is newsworthy. It simply can't be ignored by the media, and Trump was breaching those standards near daily, hence the perceived 'negative' media.

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 08:38

All first-page-of-Google searches:

Crikey "Rundle: sorry, Van Badham, but Clinton hasn't been left-wing since the '90s"

Crikey "Poll Bludger: could Clinton's latest email scandal topple her campaign?"

Crikey "Razer: Trump, Clinton go to war exploiting abused women"

Crikey "Rundle: Clinton campaign catches downdraft, goes into tailspin"

Crikey "It's not easy to love Putin, but Clinton is no better"

Crikey "How Hillary Clinton's team tries to police the media" [So read other media?]

Crikey "Assange attacks Clinton on health."


ABC "Why the election of Hillary Clinton promises a more dangerous world"

floyd, Tue 15 Nov 2016 08:50

Interesting discussion on all this on Q and A last night (iview if you want to watch for free) where it was said Trump was critically scrutinised by the media but only after he had the republican nomination while clinton first had the fight with sanders which divided the democrat vote (all in the media) and when nominated she had trump and the media (email/FBI issues) to deal with. The comment was made by the time the media got around to seriously looking at trump it was too late he had all the momentum ... i don't know if this is true or not by this is what one of the american panelist said last night

benski, Tue 15 Nov 2016 09:41

I would agree with that floyd. That's why I thought he was going to win the whole thing from Nov last year until July. Watching the news over there during the primaries the media was laughing along with histweets, lies (and they were objectively lies) and his bragging about the size of his dick, all while denying oxygen to the other candidates. It was comical really, the morning news would just be a panel saying, can you believe he said that? No me neither. Amazing! Repeat.

He played the media like a fiddle in the early days, it really was his strategy. Scrutiny started very late. Claims of bias are total rubbish too. They didn't take him seriously, sure, but the scrutiny he got was proportional to his statements and ever changing positions.

Backhander, Tue 15 Nov 2016 09:45

What about our Julia throwing a lazy $300 million at her good friend Hillarys foundation when she was the PM ?

tonybarber, Tue 15 Nov 2016 09:57

A telling statement by a GenY - "the Internet is now the conscience of humanity".
FR, is this the pernicious development that threatens democracy, you mentioned ?

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 10:12

You're giving a pretty skewed view of media there stunt, not least it has a paywall, and half of the plebs probably haven't even heard of that site.

The mainstream media had a concerted campaign to paint trump as badly as possible, whilst almost blanketly covering up the WikiLeaks emails. Yes the emails were 'out there', but half the sites reporting them were 'out there' too, making it almost impossible to gain traction.

My friends who have now seen that vid Southey posted, and who were vehemently anti trump, now feel they were totally duped by the meda

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 10:16

Disgusting backhander... that's how it is

Trump used the media to his gain, more fool them if he beat them at their own game.

What has been overlooked in the following overanalyses, is that trump won with the whole system against him, the media, the democrats, the femonazis, his own party. Look how much money and advertising the Clinton campaign had. Look at the ridiculous set up in that glass cube, all the B grade celebrities, all the late night comedy shows, everyone was against him (except Clint Eastwood and Arnie) but we didn't even hear about them because it didn't fall in line with the agenda

It's a fucking miracle he won!! A true victory for democracy. Living poof you can't fool everyone al the time.... and praise the gods for that. Not only that, it gives me real hope that women, black people, gays and Hispanics saw through the shit and opted for the least corrupt, most representative candidate. About time the Hilary press gave up on this gender war thing, the numbers show otherwise, enough division has been created, time to heal, and accept the results

He's still a fuckwit, and it's a shame it took such a fuckwit to pull back the curtain on the wizard, but better to deal with this shit now before things get real ugly

Yep, he's backed away from most of his radical policies, most people would (and should) say that's a good thing... most of his supporters knew he was only half the hard nut that he put himself out there to be. Both candidates lied through their teeth, if just seems to come down to how individuals interpret different styles of language as to what people expected. Which defines this whole election, language, class and expectations

Expecting to not have to write a concession speech says it all.

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 10:23

Sypkan: "You're giving a pretty skewed view of media there stunt, not least it has a paywall, and half of the plebs probably haven't even heard of that site."

Skewed? Don't agree. I've got a checklist of media sites, from hard right to hard left and I read enough stuff on Hillary - including the John Pilger articles that were sent to me 10x as much as any other single article - to know the info was there. It's not hard to find, I get all mine sent to me in emails, even if it's behind paywalls you can get the gist from reading the headlines (I don't subscribe to many of the outlets I get emails from). Anyone who says it wasn't available is reacting to an echo chamber of their own making and you can't blame anyone else for that. This is 2016.

Paywall? Fairfax has a limited paywall and the Australian a total paywall (both can be breached by anyone with half a clue). The two largest news oulets in Australia have paywalls so the argument is invalid. Anyway, see above for how you can still ascertain media sentiment

The plebs haven't heard of it? You've said yourself - many, many times in fact - that MSM is dead. So then where are people getting their news from?

Look, I agree the straight news sites went easy on Hillary yet if Breitbart can be considred influential then why the hell can't Crikey, Daily Review, Spiked, New Matilda et al?

sharkman, Tue 15 Nov 2016 10:44

Watch Fox news , and then CNN , and try and workout how facts are manipulated by both sides.

The Public doe not trust Politicians , media ,lobbyist's or themselves , so where as a society are we?

democracy does not work ,as the whole idea of lobby groups and their acceptance as part of a democratic process is hypocritical.
now ," the System is corrupt" seems to have awoken and prodded a large part of the voting population , into voting down the idea of corruption , at any cost even electing someone who cannot deliver on his promise , to clean up our current broken system which will then means it's all OK again , even great!!!

Breitbart was an early supporter of Trump , who galvanized the rabid right , white is might and right,and orchestrated Trumps foundation of white middleclass men , and continued to advise Trump ...he is a loyal genius and now has the greatest influence any right wing racist has had , ever in the whitehouse.

Our Australian right wing media should see what Breibart has accomplished , and follow his example , and start with One Nation , which will become as powerful as the LNP and Labor , writing is on the wall , lets get used to it?

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:01

Brietbart is trash, the others are academic, we both know what people like

And I still don't think you can compare crikey to the big paywall sites, it's about exposure, both before and after you even log in.

You've kind of answered your own question re. you getting emails from a heap of sites, left to right, all reasonably reputable no doubt.

For me to get enough information for me to be comfortably bagging Clinton publicly took some time, a lot of time! And a lot of "it can't possibly be" moments lurking in the nasty rabbit holes benski speaks of, trying to find what was real. it wasn't fucking easy!

I'm no academic, but there's reputable and reputable, like everything else, this election has blurred the lines

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:08

"You've kind of answered your own question re. you getting emails from a heap of sites,"

Yeah, I guess, but honestly it takes seconds to scan the headlines and get a feel for what's happening. When something piques my interest I'll read it, same as anyone else.

Guess I figured people were getting their info from a range of sources. 'Echo chamber' has become one of those buzzy buzzwords, but perhaps it's a case of 'everyone else is in an echo chamber bar me.'

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:14


The day after the US election an unnamed - and apparently tone deaf - cabinet minister said, "We all support free trade..."

WTF? An election was just won on the premise of trade tariffs, which, in the domestic setting, is a move straight out of the One Nation playbook. Even if you do believe in free trade now is the time to play it cool.

So in the face of Liberal denial it's Labor's job to head off any lurch to One Nation. Start with 457s, make moves on corporate tax evasion, bolster enterprise bargaining, question every trade deal foisted on Australia, limit negative gearing on investment properties, adopt Staircasing (or similar) to make housing affordable to young people. Read from the script, capture the mood, it's all happening before us. The disquiet is getting louder and louder.

sharkman, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:15

to say Breibart/Stephen Bannon are trash is to dismiss Brexit/Trump/Hanson , and the global march towards Nationalism.

Until you understand what is happening , and stop dismissing people like Bannon as Trash , its like living with your head in the sand , never having seen the great out doors , but making comment on nature!

freeride76, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:36

"It's a fucking miracle he won!! A true victory for democracy. Living poof you can't fool everyone al the time.... and praise the gods for that. "

Don't know about this living poof you mention Sypkan.......maybe a freudian slip?
Anyway, it just might turn out to be a case of you can fool enough of the people some of the time.
Trump has plenty of form as an A-grade ConMan.
The next couple of years will determine if he dog-whistled enough disaffected people using a deliberate strategy of incendiary deception to gain political power.

If so, they'd be strange and vengeful Gods you would be praising.

udo, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:46

Any way here's a sneek peek at the Trump Wall - Interesting

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:49

Bills already on to it, even Malcolm has changed his tune, amazing what a difference a few days can make. Malcolm's face (and much of the press) has been gold this week. Not sure if it's just his refugees deal, probably more so he saw his whole world crumbling before him.

Watch this weeks media watch, nailed it across the board, all medias played a role

Dunno Sharkman, Donald and brexit have united plebs, academics, anarchists, libertarians, preppers and whole heap of fruitcakes across the spectrum. A lot of good old mums and dads too. Not many want to run the brown people out of town. Most can just see the government selling their children futures for some 1970's idealism

sharkman, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:58

so sypkan , so what is that 70's idealism that these nationalistic parties have embraced and sold to the current generations as the way forward?
Fruitcakes in the majority means ," The Norm" , so what are the people who relegate nationalism to fruitcakes , what are they called leftwing PC's?

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 11:58

Not necessarily a good miracle freeride...but nonetheless a miracle

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:05

I don't know Sharkman, shit's all over the place...

I'm one of the fruitcakes

I'm bagging the 1970's idealism, it's the 'establishment' that's pushing that one. I'm on your side....sometimes....

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:12

Look at this Sypkan, Helen Razer satirises Aaron Sorkin's 'letter to his daughter', and it's free (just as the Daily Review has been all along - sign up now!)

A letter to my (fictional) daughter about the US election

Choice cuts:

"What died last Tuesday was not so much feminism, a movement that Aaron Sorkin, whose fatty oeuvre is scored with the dull knife of sexism — have you seen The Social Network? Well, no, you haven’t, because it is banned from our home, but, let me tell you about Sorkin’s empowered women: they are all (a) drunk sluts (b) evil sluts or (c) CJ-like nuns who keep themselves nice enough to help men out of a spot of bother, almost always brought about by drunk evil sluts — would not recognise feminism if it shat on his chest. (Actually, mini-Razer, not a bad screenplay idea. Write that down.) The thing that really died last week was liberalism."

"Of course, Aaron Sorkin’s daughter will be fine. Her father, after all, is wealthy enough to donate to the institutional defenders of his Hollywood ideals, the Democratic Party. He made his money selling a perfect screen vision of liberalism that existed for a single moment in a handful of nations. Last week, his stock was up again as he retold that delusion in Vanity Fair. And it is interesting to note, little one, that he wrote, “we fight mostly for equality — not for a guarantee of equal outcomes but for equal opportunities.”"

"You’re a girl, and there’s no protecting you from this sexist world. But just as the “most qualified” candidate was denied her chance to shine by the fear so many have of our gender, she was stripped of it by the world’s diminished faith in liberalism."

"And when they tell us that our ideas are old and impractical, we will remind them that liberalism, even older, hasn’t really turned out so well. And we will promise never again to write sappy letters to our imaginary daughters. That shit is for liberal wimps.


sharkman, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:15

I am not sure I have a side anymore , seems there is an inevitable downward spiral coming , and has just been turbo boosted by Trump and a group of followers who feel they are entitled to a better life , and it can't get any worse?
I personally can't understand what is wrong with the USA economy and their lust for an even better life , does that mean an extra car , new house or..?????
To make the USA great again infers they are a currently in a bad place , but relative to the rest of the world they are ripping!

sypkan, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:49

Wow! You do get good shit don't you?

she's right about abundance, sell abundance... kardashians, Beyoncé, j z, what a lame list

fuck me Katie Perry tweeted ' this is the revolution '....Hollywood? .....Who cares what they think, they're all in on it

Yep, it's dead, corrupted, it was a nice idea but the world has changed

yocal, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:50

Hey Sharkman I am not so sure anymore myself. I am amazed at the backpedalling by Trump and it is clear he was sensationalising everything freely without having to own his words. Now that he actually landed in the seat he seems to be having a humbling experience, dealing with the realities of the Presidency and the weight of the world on his shoulders. So theres already a massive sign of moderation.

But this is not what anyone wants. Everyone wants change. What is coming through more than ever before the election is that real discussions are taking place on what Americans want for the future, on a national level. More discussion has been sparked than what movements like "Occupy Wall street" could ever have hoped to achieve. Trump has brought confusion to the American identity and the great triumph is that Even Trump himself is realizing the gravity of the situation and reconsidering his oversimplification of the issues.

yocal, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:53

BUT... I still feel that a Narcissist running a superpower is extremely dangerous territory and so i'm hoping for an alternative party to be formed to challenge Trump's Populism with a fresh and EMPATHETIC alternative to neoliberal capitalism

sharkman, Tue 15 Nov 2016 12:59

yocal , I have probably watched and read over 60 hours of the USA election , in the last week......had a flu!

Nearly caught analysis paralysis!!

Confusion over the American Identity , and now the fragmentation of that identity as , the white males and females came out in force and , there number one concern was their white lifestyle and lack of identity in a cosmopolitan USA.

Same here in Australia with Hanson , but when it becomes obvious that nationalism will not deliver what the nationalists want , in more local jobs, higher wages , and a better material life, the shit will start going down as there is very little we can do to stop Globalization , and who will the right blame then?

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 13:37

Sykpan "Malcolm's face (and much of the press) has been gold this week."

Poor old Malcolm. He's spent the last twelve months engineering a refugee solution with the US, and now this happens.

Fella was presented with an awful choice this week: Do I make public my behind the scenes work with the US to show that I've been doing something about Manus Island, or do I heed the US election result and stay mum about it.

In the end he went with the former, held a press conference stating that the US would take all the Manus Island refugees, in spite of the fact they've just held an election where immigration was a deciding factor.

'Twas no surprise to hear the opinion of a US immigration professor on Radio National last night. Asked if the US will honour this deal and take the refugees his answer was blunt.


velocityjohnno, Tue 15 Nov 2016 13:42

& it seems TreasSec will be alumni of a certain investment bank


flow, Tue 15 Nov 2016 13:48

Didn't the libs block the So called Malaysian soloution when Gillard was in? Not that I was necessarily in favour of that either. They would probably love that option now.

stunet, Tue 15 Nov 2016 16:35

Here we go. "It will be so refreshing to have a classy, beautiful, dignified First Lady back in the White House, I'm tired of seeing a Ape in heels."

The Facebook comment was liked and commented on by the Mayor of Clay County in West Virginia who, when asked, said her "comment was not intended to be racist at all."

Of course it wasn't, and anyone who says otherwise is a politically correct, thought policing, liberal brow beater.

Roll on...

crg, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:01

Dave is back at his subtle finest...

crg, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:01

Dave is back at his subtle finest...

blindboy, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:04

Clinton is actually still in with a chance to be the next president. It is the vote of the electoral college that decides the presidency and it does not vote until December. Trump has won states with enough delegates, but the delegates are not bound by the state vote. They can vote however they like. It isn't over until it is over and I believe there will be huge pressure on some delegates to switch to Clinton.

talkingturkey, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:35

A little Q & A:

Q/ In your view, what were the deciding factors that led American voters to produce the biggest upset in the history of US politics?

A/ Before turning to this question, I think it is important to spend a few moments pondering just what happened on November 8, a date that might turn out to be one of the most important in human history, depending on how we react.

No exaggeration.

The most important news of November 8 was barely noted, a fact of some significance in itself.

On November 8, the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) delivered a report at the international conference on climate change in Morocco (COP22) which was called in order to carry forward the Paris agreement of COP21. The WMO reported that the past five years were the hottest on record. It reported rising sea levels, soon to increase as a result of the unexpectedly rapid melting of polar ice, most ominously the huge Antarctic glaciers. Already, Arctic sea ice over the past five years is 28 percent below the average of the previous 29 years, not only raising sea levels, but also reducing the cooling effect of polar ice reflection of solar rays, thereby accelerating the grim effects of global warming. The WMO reported further that temperatures are approaching dangerously close to the goal established by COP21, along with other dire reports and forecasts.

Another event took place on November 8, which also may turn out to be of unusual historical significance for reasons that, once again, were barely noted.

On November 8, the most powerful country in world history, which will set its stamp on what comes next, had an election. The outcome placed total control of the government -- executive, Congress, the Supreme Court -- in the hands of the Republican Party, which has become the most dangerous organization in world history.

Apart from the last phrase, all of this is uncontroversial. The last phrase may seem outlandish, even outrageous. But is it? The facts suggest otherwise. The Party is dedicated to racing as rapidly as possible to destruction of organized human life. There is no historical precedent for such a stand.

Is this an exaggeration? Consider what we have just been witnessing.

During the Republican primaries, every candidate denied that what is happening is happening -- with the exception of the sensible moderates, like Jeb Bush, who said it's all uncertain, but we don't have to do anything because we’re producing more natural gas, thanks to fracking. Or John Kasich, who agreed that global warming is taking place, but added that "we are going to burn [coal] in Ohio and we are not going to apologize for it."

The winning candidate, now the president-elect, calls for rapid increase in use of fossil fuels, including coal; dismantling of regulations; rejection of help to developing countries that are seeking to move to sustainable energy; and in general, racing to the cliff as fast as possible.

Trump has already taken steps to dismantle the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) by placing in charge of the EPA transition a notorious (and proud) climate change denier, Myron Ebell. Trump's top adviser on energy, billionaire oil executive Harold Hamm, announced his expectations, which were predictable: dismantling regulations, tax cuts for the industry (and the wealthy and corporate sector generally), more fossil fuel production, lifting Obama's temporary block on the Dakota Access pipeline. The market reacted quickly. Shares in energy corporations boomed, including the world’s largest coal miner, Peabody Energy, which had filed for bankruptcy, but after Trump's victory, registered a 50 percent gain.

The effects of Republican denialism had already been felt. There had been hopes that the COP21 Paris agreement would lead to a verifiable treaty, but any such thoughts were abandoned because the Republican Congress would not accept any binding commitments, so what emerged was a voluntary agreement, evidently much weaker.

Effects may soon become even more vividly apparent than they already are. In Bangladesh alone, tens of millions are expected to have to flee from low-lying plains in coming years because of sea level rise and more severe weather, creating a migrant crisis that will make today’s pale in significance. With considerable justice, Bangladesh's leading climate scientist says that "These migrants should have the right to move to the countries from which all these greenhouse gases are coming. Millions should be able to go to the United States." And to the other rich countries that have grown wealthy while bringing about a new geological era, the Anthropocene, marked by radical human transformation of the environment. These catastrophic consequences can only increase, not just in Bangladesh, but in all of South Asia as temperatures, already intolerable for the poor, inexorably rise and the Himalayan glaciers melt, threatening the entire water supply. Already in India, some 300 million people are reported to lack adequate drinking water. And the effects will reach far beyond.

It is hard to find words to capture the fact that humans are facing the most important question in their history -- whether organized human life will survive in anything like the form we know -- and are answering it by accelerating the race to disaster.

Similar observations hold for the other huge issue concerning human survival: the threat of nuclear destruction, which has been looming over our heads for 70 years and is now increasing.

It is no less difficult to find words to capture the utterly astonishing fact that in all of the massive coverage of the electoral extravaganza, none of this receives more than passing mention. At least I am at a loss to find appropriate words.

Turning finally to the question raised, to be precise, it appears that Clinton received a slight majority of the vote. The apparent decisive victory has to do with curious features of American politics: among other factors, the Electoral College residue of the founding of the country as an alliance of separate states; the winner-take-all system in each state; the arrangement of congressional districts (sometimes by gerrymandering) to provide greater weight to rural votes (in past elections, and probably this one too, Democrats have had a comfortable margin of victory in the popular vote for the House, but hold a minority of seats); the very high rate of abstention (usually close to half in presidential elections, this one included). Of some significance for the future is the fact that in the age 18-25 range, Clinton won handily, and Sanders had an even higher level of support. How much this matters depends on what kind of future humanity will face.

According to current information, Trump broke all records in the support he received from white voters, working class and lower middle class, particularly in the $50,000 to $90,000 income range, rural and suburban, primarily those without college education. These groups share the anger throughout the West at the centrist establishment, revealed as well in the unanticipated Brexit vote and the collapse of centrist parties in continental Europe. [Many of] the angry and disaffected are victims of the neoliberal policies of the past generation, the policies described in congressional testimony by Fed chair Alan Greenspan -- "St. Alan," as he was called reverentially by the economics profession and other admirers until the miraculous economy he was supervising crashed in 2007-2008, threatening to bring the whole world economy down with it. As Greenspan explained during his glory days, his successes in economic management were based substantially on "growing worker insecurity." Intimidated working people would not ask for higher wages, benefits and security, but would be satisfied with the stagnating wages and reduced benefits that signal a healthy economy by neoliberal standards.

Working people, who have been the subjects of these experiments in economic theory, are not particularly happy about the outcome. They are not, for example, overjoyed at the fact that in 2007, at the peak of the neoliberal miracle, real wages for nonsupervisory workers were lower than they had been years earlier, or that real wages for male workers are about at 1960s levels while spectacular gains have gone to the pockets of a very few at the top, disproportionately a fraction of 1%. Not the result of market forces, achievement or merit, but rather of definite policy decisions, matters reviewed carefully by economist Dean Baker in recently published work.

The fate of the minimum wage illustrates what has been happening. Through the periods of high and egalitarian growth in the '50s and '60s, the minimum wage -- which sets a floor for other wages -- tracked productivity. That ended with the onset of neoliberal doctrine. Since then, the minimum wage has stagnated (in real value). Had it continued as before, it would probably be close to $20 per hour. Today, it is considered a political revolution to raise it to $15.

With all the talk of near-full employment today, labor force participation remains below the earlier norm. And for working people, there is a great difference between a steady job in manufacturing with union wages and benefits, as in earlier years, and a temporary job with little security in some service profession. Apart from wages, benefits and security, there is a loss of dignity, of hope for the future, of a sense that this is a world in which I belong and play a worthwhile role.

The impact is captured well in Arlie Hochschild's sensitive and illuminating portrayal of a Trump stronghold in Louisiana, where she lived and worked for many years. She uses the image of a line in which residents are standing, expecting to move forward steadily as they work hard and keep to all the conventional values. But their position in the line has stalled. Ahead of them, they see people leaping forward, but that does not cause much distress, because it is "the American way" for (alleged) merit to be rewarded. What does cause real distress is what is happening behind them. They believe that "undeserving people" who do not "follow the rules" are being moved in front of them by federal government programs they erroneously see as designed to benefit African-Americans, immigrants and others they often regard with contempt. All of this is exacerbated by [Ronald] Reagan's racist fabrications about "welfare queens" (by implication Black) stealing white people's hard-earned money and other fantasies.

Sometimes failure to explain, itself a form of contempt, plays a role in fostering hatred of government. I once met a house painter in Boston who had turned bitterly against the "evil" government after a Washington bureaucrat who knew nothing about painting organized a meeting of painting contractors to inform them that they could no longer use lead paint -- "the only kind that works" -- as they all knew, but the suit didn't understand. That destroyed his small business, compelling him to paint houses on his own with substandard stuff forced on him by government elites.

Sometimes there are also some real reasons for these attitudes toward government bureaucracies. Hochschild describes a man whose family and friends are suffering bitterly from the lethal effects of chemical pollution but who despises the government and the "liberal elites," because for him, the EPA means some ignorant guy who tells him he can't fish, but does nothing about the chemical plants.

These are just samples of the real lives of Trump supporters, who are led to believe that Trump will do something to remedy their plight, though the merest look at his fiscal and other proposals demonstrates the opposite -- posing a task for activists who hope to fend off the worst and to advance desperately needed changes.

Exit polls reveal that the passionate support for Trump was inspired primarily by the belief that he represented change, while Clinton was perceived as the candidate who would perpetuate their distress. The "change" that Trump is likely to bring will be harmful or worse, but it is understandable that the consequences are not clear to isolated people in an atomized society lacking the kinds of associations (like unions) that can educate and organize. That is a crucial difference between today's despair and the generally hopeful attitudes of many working people under much greater economic duress during the Great Depression of the 1930s.

There are other factors in Trump's success. Comparative studies show that doctrines of white supremacy have had an even more powerful grip on American culture than in South Africa, and it's no secret that the white population is declining. In a decade or two, whites are projected to be a minority of the work force, and not too much later, a minority of the population. The traditional conservative culture is also perceived as under attack by the successes of identity politics, regarded as the province of elites who have only contempt for the ''hard-working, patriotic, church-going [white] Americans with real family values'' who see their familiar country as disappearing before their eyes.

One of the difficulties in raising public concern over the very severe threats of global warming is that 40 percent of the US population does not see why it is a problem, since Christ is returning in a few decades. About the same percentage believe that the world was created a few thousand years ago. If science conflicts with the Bible, so much the worse for science. It would be hard to find an analogue in other societies.

The Democratic Party abandoned any real concern for working people by the 1970s, and they have therefore been drawn to the ranks of their bitter class enemies, who at least pretend to speak their language -- Reagan's folksy style of making little jokes while eating jelly beans, George W. Bush's carefully cultivated image of a regular guy you could meet in a bar who loved to cut brush on the ranch in 100-degree heat and his probably faked mispronunciations (it's unlikely that he talked like that at Yale), and now Trump, who gives voice to people with legitimate grievances -- people who have lost not just jobs, but also a sense of personal self-worth -- and who rails against the government that they perceive as having undermined their lives (not without reason).

One of the great achievements of the doctrinal system has been to divert anger from the corporate sector to the government that implements the programs that the corporate sector designs, such as the highly protectionist corporate/investor rights agreements that are uniformly mis-described as "free trade agreements" in the media and commentary. With all its flaws, the government is, to some extent, under popular influence and control, unlike the corporate sector. It is highly advantageous for the business world to foster hatred for pointy-headed government bureaucrats and to drive out of people's minds the subversive idea that the government might become an instrument of popular will, a government of, by and for the people.

talkingturkey, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:43

Cup of tea and a biscuit.

talkingturkey, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:46

Q/ Is Trump representing a new movement in American politics, or was the outcome of this election primarily a rejection of Hillary Clinton by voters who hate the Clintons and are fed-up with "politics as usual?"

A/ It's by no means new. Both political parties have moved to the right during the neoliberal period. Today's New Democrats are pretty much what used to be called "moderate Republicans." The "political revolution" that Bernie Sanders called for, rightly, would not have greatly surprised Dwight Eisenhower. The Republicans have moved so far toward a dedication to the wealthy and the corporate sector that they cannot hope to get votes on their actual programs, and have turned to mobilizing sectors of the population that have always been there, but not as an organized coalitional political force: evangelicals, nativists, racists and the victims of the forms of globalization designed to set working people around the world in competition with one another while protecting the privileged and undermining the legal and other measures that provided working people with some protection, and with ways to influence decision-making in the closely linked public and private sectors, notably with effective labor unions.

The consequences have been evident in recent Republican primaries. Every candidate that has emerged from the base -- such as [Michele] Bachmann, [Herman] Cain or [Rick] Santorum -- has been so extreme that the Republican establishment had to use its ample resources to beat them down. The difference in 2016 is that the establishment failed, much to its chagrin, as we have seen.

Deservedly or not, Clinton represented the policies that were feared and hated, while Trump was seen as the symbol of "change" -- change of what kind requires a careful look at his actual proposals, something largely missing in what reached the public. The campaign itself was remarkable in its avoidance of issues, and media commentary generally complied, keeping to the concept that true "objectivity" means reporting accurately what is "within the beltway," but not venturing beyond.

Q/ Trump said following the outcome of the election that he "will represent all Americans." How is he going to do that when the nation is so divided and he has already expressed deep hatred for many groups in the United States, including women and minorities? Do you see any resemblance between Brexit and Donald Trump's victory?

A/ There are definite similarities to Brexit, and also to the rise of the ultranationalist far-right parties in Europe -- whose leaders were quick to congratulate Trump on his victory, perceiving him as one of their own: [Nigel] Farage, [Marine] Le Pen, [Viktor] Orban and others like them. And these developments are quite frightening. A look at the polls in Austria and Germany -- Austria and Germany -- cannot fail to evoke unpleasant memories for those familiar with the 1930s, even more so for those who watched directly, as I did as a child. I can still recall listening to Hitler's speeches, not understanding the words, though the tone and audience reaction were chilling enough. The first article that I remember writing was in February 1939, after the fall of Barcelona, on the seemingly inexorable spread of the fascist plague. And by strange coincidence, it was from Barcelona that my wife and I watched the results of the 2016 US presidential election unfold.

As to how Trump will handle what he has brought forth -- not created, but brought forth -- we cannot say. Perhaps his most striking characteristic is unpredictability. A lot will depend on the reactions of those appalled by his performance and the visions he has projected, such as they are.

Q/ Trump has no identifiable political ideology guiding his stance on economic, social and political issues, yet there are clear authoritarian tendencies in his behavior. Therefore, do you find any validity behind the claims that Trump may represent the emergence of "fascism with a friendly face?" in the United States?

A/ For many years, I have been writing and speaking about the danger of the rise of an honest and charismatic ideologue in the United States, someone who could exploit the fear and anger that has long been boiling in much of the society, and who could direct it away from the actual agents of malaise to vulnerable targets. That could indeed lead to what sociologist Bertram Gross called "friendly fascism" in a perceptive study 35 years ago. But that requires an honest ideologue, a Hitler type, not someone whose only detectable ideology is Me. The dangers, however, have been real for many years, perhaps even more so in the light of the forces that Trump has unleashed.

Q/ With the Republicans in the White House, but also controlling both houses and the future shape of the Supreme Court, what will the US look like for at least the next four years?

A/ A good deal depends on his appointments and circle of advisers. Early indications are unattractive, to put it mildly.

The Supreme Court will be in the hands of reactionaries for many years, with predictable consequences. If Trump follows through on his Paul Ryan-style fiscal programs, there will be huge benefits for the very rich -- estimated by the Tax Policy Center as a tax cut of over 14 percent for the top 0.1 percent and a substantial cut more generally at the upper end of the income scale, but with virtually no tax relief for others, who will also face major new burdens. The respected economics correspondent of the Financial Times, Martin Wolf, writes that, "The tax proposals would shower huge benefits on already rich Americans such as Mr Trump," while leaving others in the lurch, including, of course, his constituency. The immediate reaction of the business world reveals that Big Pharma, Wall Street, the military industry, energy industries and other such wonderful institutions expect a very bright future.

One positive development might be the infrastructure program that Trump has promised while (along with much reporting and commentary) concealing the fact that it is essentially the Obama stimulus program that would have been of great benefit to the economy and to the society generally, but was killed by the Republican Congress on the pretext that it would explode the deficit. While that charge was spurious at the time, given the very low interest rates, it holds in spades for Trump's program, now accompanied by radical tax cuts for the rich and corporate sector and increased Pentagon spending.

There is, however, an escape, provided by Dick Cheney when he explained to Bush's Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill that "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" -- meaning deficits that we Republicans create in order to gain popular support, leaving it to someone else, preferably Democrats, to somehow clean up the mess. The technique might work, for a while at least.

There are also many questions about foreign policy consequences, mostly unanswered.

Q/ There is mutual admiration between Trump and Putin. How likely is it therefore that we may see a new era in US-Russia relations?

A/ One hopeful prospect is that there might be reduction of the very dangerous and mounting tensions at the Russian border: note "the Russian border," not the Mexican border. Thereby lies a tale that we cannot go into here. It is also possible that Europe might distance itself from Trump's America, as already suggested by [German] Chancellor [Angela] Merkel and other European leaders -- and from the British voice of American power, after Brexit. That might possibly lead to European efforts to defuse the tensions, and perhaps even efforts to move towards something like Mikhail Gorbachev's vision of an integrated Eurasian security system without military alliances, rejected by the US in favor of NATO expansion, a vision revived recently by Putin, whether seriously or not, we do not know, since the gesture was dismissed.

Q/ Is US foreign policy under a Trump administration likely to be more or less militaristic than what we have seen under the Obama administration, or even the George W. Bush administration?

A/ I don't think one can answer with any confidence. Trump is too unpredictable. There are too many open questions. What we can say is that popular mobilization and activism, properly organized and conducted, can make a large difference.

And we should bear in mind that the stakes are very large.

blindboy, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:58

turkey I think the most accurate assessment of Trump's future policies and actions is that they are completely unknown......even to Trump himself. He is impulsive and opportunistic.

happyasS, Tue 15 Nov 2016 17:58

blindboy, the electoral vote doesn't exist to change the will of the people. 60 million voted for trump.

....its over.

batfink, Tue 15 Nov 2016 18:01

Fark TT, TL:DR.

Maybe I'll get back to it.

Here is a snapshot of what I like to call rational economics. This is what should replace neoliberal economics. Much of this is what used to be called economics, but then arsehats like Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan took us down the path of very little return except for the 1%.

This is what I would vote for, see bullet points if it's TLDR for you;

John Menadue is a gem.

By the way Stu, read Helen Razer's stuff for a long time now. She is quite the learned curmudgeon, more learned than me, but probably less curmudgeon. Loved that piece.

batfink, Tue 15 Nov 2016 18:05

Happyass is right blindboy. If ever the electoral college would turn over from the vote, it would have been with Al Gore and George W.

What a fark up for the world that was. A batch of 'hanging chads' bullshit in Florida and a rigged court system and the western world is set on its edge with the dumbest President ever, even compared to Ronald Reagan. So much of this flows from that. Funny to think about, but not so much in a ha ha way.

Don't get too cocky, we had Tony Abbott. Quite possibly as dumb as George Bush, just in different ways.

talkingturkey, Tue 15 Nov 2016 18:26

Sigh, TL:DR is part of the problem. Where's me dank meme at?

As for the 'hanging chads' fiasco, I think I posted something in What's What? by Greg Palast who investigated that dodgy election for The Guardian, The Observer, and the BBC (when they weren't so 'compromised'), as well as this one! CROSS-CHECK! Check THAT out!

blindboy, Tue 15 Nov 2016 19:12

happy it may have escaped your attention that Clinton won the popular vote. However many voted for Trump, more voted for Clinton. batfink you are probably right about the electoral college but there is one huge factor this time that wasn't there for Gore/Bush and that is the clear perception across political boundaries that Trump represents an existential risk to the nation. One serious mistake between now and the vote and he could lose.

happyasS, Tue 15 Nov 2016 19:29

blindboy, it hasn't escaped my attention. the will of the people is not described by the popular vote, it is described by the electoral college. the system is designed that way. there can be NO sore losers out of this, both parties know how the system works.

back to the 19th. i find it hard to believe that republican electors will change their vote to Clinton. why would they do this?

blindboy, Tue 15 Nov 2016 21:13

......because Trump has a month to be Trump and say something that might not have mattered as a candidate, but as Obama said today, does matter from the Pesident elect.
I note your touching faith that the American system represents the will of the people. I suggest you look at the voting for the Senate where the will of some people counts as a multiple of the will of others. Not to mention the, still existing barriers, to significant sections of the population even voting at all.

happyasS, Tue 15 Nov 2016 21:55

maybe so BB, but trump isnt as dumb as his twitter posts would have you otherwise believe. already hes tempering his views. also remember for electors to flip means political suicide so it would have to be something very serious.

rooftop, Wed 16 Nov 2016 00:32

There was undoubtedly a lot of support for Trump. But in contrast to the ubiquitous line at the moment that we all overlooked a grass-roots campaign based on a deep well of discontent that was right under our noses, there is this edifying article from Sue Halpern.

It points out that 39 percent of Trump's Twitter followers were not real people but software-generated "bots" creating and endorsing politically expedient lines. Many of them with conveniently stereotypical Hispanic names too.

It's clear that in the era of big data, sophisticated algorithms, "social" media and obsessive internet use, sandwich boards and flyers are not what win elections.


'After studying four million election-related tweets created between September 16 and October 21, the University of Southern California computer science professor, Emilio Ferrara, and his colleagues, determined that one in five were generated by bots. And once they were, they were retweeted again and again by actual humans, who sent them ricocheting around the web, especially those that were antagonistic; in earlier work, Ferrara’s group found that negative tweets traveled 2.5 times faster than positive ones. “As a result, [the bots] were able to build significant influence, collecting large numbers of followers and having their tweets retweeted by thousands of humans,” and leading to the “spreading of content that is often defamatory or based on unsupported or even false, claims.” Ferrara further noted that, “previous studies showed that this systematic bias alters public perception. Specifically, it creates the false impression that there is grassroots, positive, sustained support for a certain candidate.”'


With both houses in hand and the supreme court soon to follow, it seems possible that without VERY strong public resistance he may be able to actually live up to his rhetoric and overturn abortion laws, discriminate against Muslims, loosen restrictions on torture, deport millions of undocumented migrants and nix any climate change obligations.

Not to sound too alarmist about it, but if we don't take the threat posed by this demagogue seriously, what does it take for us to do something?

When the next terrorist attack happens in America - and it will - can we expect him to suddenly become a level-headed pragmatic leader able diffuse the situation and implement a long-term strategy for peace and de-radicalisation?

Or will he keep his promise to make the "sand glow" in the middle east and sow the seeds of discontent for another generation?

rooftop, Wed 16 Nov 2016 00:35

And on that very note, I notice that I now have to verify that I'm not a bot before posting.

I guess there's no chance of bots launching some pro-SUP campaign on these forums, then. Which is comforting.

Blowin, Wed 16 Nov 2016 06:22

Rooftop - Q :Why would terrorists attack USA in the first place ?

A : Because the clowns running the show up till now have treated rest of the world with utter contempt. Killing thousands upon thousands of people in foreign countries and a fair few thousand of their own citizens in pointless wars based on making those in charge wealthier.

And you're happy to continue in this vein because the alternative is not clearly scripted in front of you.

Strange how many people claim that those who voted for Trump did so out of small minded fear whilst they themselves run around drumming up hysteria .

The only choice available to run the henhouse was between a fox that has killed and continues to kill the chickens and a big, mean dog that may or may not kill the chickens.

And you're saying you'd have voted for the fox ?

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 08:11

Blowin, if you think he only may or may not go on the attack you're kidding yourself or you didn't listen to his campaign speeches. It was part of his platform to bomb the shit out of isis (including their wives and children).

The complete retrospective rewriting of this guys campaign messages by the media, politicians looking to further their own self interest and now being regurgitated by some here is bizarre. Some of messages were reasonable, no question, many were outright despicable and it was based on a platform of undermining democracy (it's rigged against us and I won't accept the result) or outright intimidation (assassinating her is the only way to save the court) as well as blatant lies. That and many other things make him very different from any other candidate before and if you want to ignore all that, that's fine but it doesn't make you prescient or some kind of free thinker.

We have no idea what he will do because he changes position all the time. That in itself is a bad thing. But we do know that he claims to want to go to war and keep up America's fighting going in the middle east.

I know you love to be a contrarian when the left gets high and mighty but stop kidding yourself that there aren't many legitimate reasons to think this guy is dangerous and to be angry about his election (and I'm speaking about friends and family over there who's life suddenly got more complicated).

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 08:13

And yeah Hilary is definitely hawkish and would also be happy to go to war.

indo-dreaming, Wed 16 Nov 2016 08:17

I thought Trump said something along the lines of "America stops needing to be the police of the world"?

Edit: he said “We are going to have to stop being the policemen of the world,” Trump said in September. In a different interview, Trump said, “Let Syria and ISIS fight. Why do we care? Let ISIS and Syria fight. And let Russia, they’re in Syria already, let them fight ISIS.”

While Hillary sure aint no peace lover.

From what I've read there is much more chance of America keeping out of these conflicts under Trump than Clinton.

EDIT AGAIN: ha ha yeah i forgot about the bomb the shit out of ISIS thing, contradicting bastard isn't he.

@Stunet in reply to yesterday basically what Sypkan said.

David H Koch, Wed 16 Nov 2016 08:39

Isis are already being bombed, stop talking garbage

David H Koch, Wed 16 Nov 2016 08:44


floyd, Wed 16 Nov 2016 08:57

Better being a Libtarded than a Fucktarded poindexter


sypkan, Wed 16 Nov 2016 09:06

undermine the democracy?


your talking about the wrong person. one of them 'might' be dangerous, the other is definitely dangerous, and has proved it time and time again.

the establishment's ideology is outdated and corrupted. when you're expending so much energy around the world to maintain 'peace', it's time to reassess long held beliefs, which is what razor (a proud lefty feminist) was on about

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 09:10

Sypkan, come on mate don't deliberately ignore my point. By undermining democracy I'm talking about his stated unwillingness to accept the result unless he won. About his twice made suggestions that assassinating Hilary would be the way to respond to the outcome of losing. I'm talking about his calls for trump voters to act as vigilantes and "monitor" voter fraud.

All that stuff that undermines the democratic process.

Yeah Hilary is a foreign policy hawk, I agree with that and I said so. she would have continued America's crappy war path. But let's not pretend the alternative is benign. He campaigned on a platform counter to the basic ideals of what we accept as democracy. And he said enough war mongering things for any observer to think he's no different on the foreign policy front.

If we have to accept that we don't know what he'll do or that he 'might' not want to go to war, why is it more likely that he would back away from his hawkish statements than his isolationist ones? After all we have no way of knowing.

I think many of you are latching onto what you hope will happen and pinning it as a greater possibility.

sypkan, Wed 16 Nov 2016 09:22

you do know hilary funded professional protestors to stir up trump rallies?

you have seen who is not accepting the election in the streets?

sypkan, Wed 16 Nov 2016 09:24

bomb the fuck oit of ISIS versus bomb the fuck out of Russia

granted the morals are all over the place, it's an easy choice for me

David H Koch, Wed 16 Nov 2016 09:27

"All that stuff that undermines the democratic process", you talking about the democratic process to exclude Bernie sanders? Operation veritas? Turkeys post election expose of GOP dead voters, or was it dem dead voters?

Hillary outright says she will attack Iran, says she will attack Russia and has been directly involved in the Middle East mess but trumps gonna "bomb the shit out of Isis" which Obama has been doing for however long and trumps a warmonger.

Leftist logic

freeride76, Wed 16 Nov 2016 10:07

Hilary attack Iran?


The most dangerous campaign rhetoric from Trump is to trash the Iran nuclear that really would throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 10:07

Sypkan, I don't see how you can hold her responsible for the actions of her supporters when she has said in her concession speech that everyone needs to accept the result and get behind trump. Trump declined to be prepared to do that if he lost.

But also, the right to protest is enshrined. You're not saying they shouldn't be allowed to do that are you?

I support the right to protest just not the right to assassinate or insight the assassination of a political opponent. Easy choice for me. ;-)

As for the war part, not an easy choice for me because I'd rather they didn't fight anyone. Neither of them offer a viable foreign policy alternative that I particularly agree with. So I choose not to separate them on that axis. They're both as bad as each other because they're both as likely to go to war. Trump said as much in the campaign so we're now left to hope that the position he drops on that issue is the ongoing war.

Taking that out of it leaves you with all his other bogus crap. I'm not going to pretend that shit was never said or pretend that a conciliatory speech wipes it clean. Anti-establishment is one thing but surely we've got enough nous to recognise the first anti-establishment fella isn't necessarily worth jumping behind.

sypkan, Wed 16 Nov 2016 10:31

Nah, good on the protestors, get amongst it, I just don't know what they're protesting about. Pity we can't harness that energy to actually do something. It's like the Sydney lock out protests, good on ya,...but really? This is what got you off the couch?

Trump's a business man, he delays his final position as long as he can, that's his way to 'seal the deal'. it drives people nuts, especially media. But he would have accepted it, he realty is just playing people, yep he's a conman.

This endless war thing is part of a bigger philosophy benski, it's not a bad philosophy, just a bit worn out.

Agree freeride, Iran is a really scary proposition with trump, though that deal does seem to be turning to shit already

sharkman, Wed 16 Nov 2016 10:32

The Roof is on fire!!

sharkman, Wed 16 Nov 2016 10:46

quick history lesson guys.

Last Thursday the EU called an urgent meeting to discuss how the EU would/could work with Trump. the UK laughed and said , no way , this is the new Brexit way ...yewwwww

24 hrs later there is a full blown Diplomatic Crisis between UK & USA , as trump is now backing Assad/Russians in Syria , not the Rebels , the UK/EU have been calling for Assad to be tried for war crimes against his own people as he has killed 400000 civilians , but now USA/Russia/Syria VS Europe.

Australia also does not support assad/Syria , as does the USA now , so the future is very uncertain , as we now have Trump who will eventually fail as he cannot and does not possess the political smarts of how not to piss everybody off , and at least keep his core supporters onside!

talkingturkey, Wed 16 Nov 2016 11:17

"Libtarded"?! For Gump's sake. Kochie for PM/Prez.

InSypo, read that looooooong Q & A I posted before? Any arguments with it? Not a reasoned and reasonable view on events?

It's with Chomsky, by the way. I dunno if that means it a) will be read, b) will not be read, c) TL n TH: WRDCB, GMS,Y!*

*Too long n too hard, won't read dat commie bastard, gimme memes suckers, yeeeeeeeew!

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 11:18

From what I can tell, they're protesting his character more than his policies but there's also his policy element too.

It's the fact that he bragged about committing sexual assault and then when women came out and said, he did that to me. His response was, pfffft I'd never touch her she's not hot enough. That's of course after boasting about going backstage during Miss universe contests while the girls were all naked so he could cop an eyeful.

It's the fact that he said openly racist things, now the anti-PC brigade might not like being told this but saying the Mexicans in our country are rapists and drug dealers, is racist. Saying a judge is biased against him because her parents are Mexican, is racist. I'm not trying to shame people into silence here, shut down debate or whatever else the left get accused of when calling out bullshit comments, but those things are the definition of racism (or bigotry if you want to play the, 'hurr durr Mexican isn't a race it's a country' card).

It's the fact that he mocked a fella with a disability by putting on the school yard spazzo routine.

It's all of that stuff. Like it or not he said it all, and from what I can gather the lefties protesting are trying to make sure people don't forget that because it affects a lot of people. I don't think they give two hoots about the TPP or an alliance with Russia. My friends who've I've been chatting with are far from hard core lefties, far from it, and they are horrified at all that stuff.

A lot of Americans put the president up on a pedestal of higher respect than we do with our pollies here. Not everyone does (I heard a few "I don't accept a n*gger as president" when I lived there in the Obama years) and plenty lampooned George W when he was boss, but plenty more hold up the prez as someone to admire. An office to be held by someone of good personal character. In the eyes of many that can't be said of this bloke, it probably can't be said of most of them but we know for sure it can't be said of this bloke.

It's not a protest that Hilary is better or a perfect candidate, it's that he's not fit for the office.

This is a joke but seth meyers put it well I reckon, with just the teeniest hint of smug...a lot of smug

David H Koch, Wed 16 Nov 2016 12:02


sypkan, Wed 16 Nov 2016 12:15

he's a woeful man benski, but when you sign yourself up to be've gotta expect some objectification

let's see how many of these 'assaults' are followed through with and how many disappear into the ether like the one supposed talk to the media days before the election

I'm sorry benski but it's Hillary's side that reduced the election to misogyny versus world war three

thankfully the public seems to be developung some scruples.

turkeyman, you are getting a lttle wordy, fuck razar was a slog and she's my messiah.

generally agree, but what's you and what's cut and paste? it's fucking hard to know with you. if you wrote it then I'll try a little harder, edit oh I see it's chomsky

I'm not big on climate change, but it sure don't seem like a priority at the moment, which probably is not a good thing

Sheepdog, Wed 16 Nov 2016 13:18

Benski you write "It's the fact that he bragged about committing sexual assault and then when women came out and said, he did that to me. His response was, pfffft I'd never touch her she's not hot enough. That's of course after boasting about going backstage during Miss universe contests while the girls were all naked so he could cop an eyeful."

Mate, that all fair enough..... Pretty tacky stuff I agree..... But...... BUT!!! Where are the "I'm offended" crowd now, as his wife gets publicly slut shamed? These same dickheads that tried to make misogyny and sexism the main form of attack against Trump are now doing the same thing to his wife..... Where's De Niro? Where's the celeb A list? Just the sound of crickets...

stunet, Wed 16 Nov 2016 13:31

Maybe because it's normal people doing it, and under the guise of free speech, and not the President elect?

I don't agree with it but of course we hold people to different standards depending upon their station. Trying to make a case of it is a bizarre misread of human nature.

tonybarber, Wed 16 Nov 2016 13:32

Q&A is now passe. With the errors in Four Corners, Catalyst, it is becoming clear that the ABC itself will become passe. Further, the 'formal' media is fast becoming irrelevant or not the source of where the 'people' get their information. We know its not the politicians. It is now the cloud. Wikipedia is not reliable, nor are 'reputable' government bodies, scientists, doctors, medical specialists, ...and more.
a very interesting few years ahead of us, as exemplified by the US elections.
Its easy to generate fear and hate but there will be some good out of this.

tonybarber, Wed 16 Nov 2016 13:35

Yes agree Stu, but you can't have different standards for different class or position of the person. The child abuse commission has clearly identified this.

happyasS, Wed 16 Nov 2016 13:48

agree tb, all the more reason why trump should be held to account for his ridiculous (er childish) remarks.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 13:48

sheepdog, basically what stu said. It's very poor form, disgraceful actually, but you'll have to take that up with the people doing it because it's not relevant to Trump's words and behaviour and the implications of them for his candidacy. I'm not talking about the attitudes of his supporters or Hilary's (there's deplorables among all of them).

That crap has nothing to do with either Hilary or Trump.

happyasS, Wed 16 Nov 2016 14:14

so what qualities does trump have that make him a good leader?

he is dishonest, un-empathetic, has no clear vision, changes his tune often, badmouths people, appears unaccountable, and engages in childish behaviour

is he actually 6 years old?

talkingturkey, Wed 16 Nov 2016 14:47

Interesting rebuttal, Kochie. Not the content but the form. The meme! It's part of the problem in this supposed "fact-free", TL:DR world. Look, where's it getting us all! TRUMP!

Here's the interview with Chomsky that forms the basis of your "truthiness" factoid. TL:DV?

How's that hoary old chestnut go? "If you're not left-wing in your 20s, you've got no heart. If you're not right-wing in your 40s, you've got no brains."

The long-time appeal of the 'right'?

Thinking, huh? Change? Waste of time! Time-poor? Too busy dealing with real shit?

Too hard, too lazy, get cynical, give up, and punch-down?

Get Trumped! The king of the down-punchers. The real coward-punchers. The willfully ignorant. Yeeeew!

Which side are youse on?

Sheepdog, Wed 16 Nov 2016 15:09

Stu writes "Maybe because it's normal people doing it, and under the guise of free speech, and not the President elect?"

And there, glaring for all to see, is the issue.... It's why Trump won..... You subconsciously called these people slut shaming Trumps wife "normal people".... If that's the case, then Trump voters are "normal people"... Everyone is freekn "normal"... And these normal people that voted for Trump knew that the beefed up latte outrage over "pussy grabbing" was just that...... And the actions of the anti trump camp post election proves it..
The only bizarre misread of human nature was by those thinking the "normal people" were going to swallow that faux pa outrage over a secretly recorded conversation back in 2005....

Benksi, therefore it is totally relevant

ps stu- 2 of these "normal people" in my link are William Dalrymple- award winning writer and historian with 323 000 followers on twitter, , and Ram Gopal Varma, one of the biggest names in Bollywood, who has 2 160 000 followers..... You're a "normal" person ,stu..... Are you on twitter? How many followers do you have? Is 2 160 000 close?........ ;) lol

stunet, Wed 16 Nov 2016 15:21

"And there, glaring for all to see, is the issue.... It's why Trump won..... You subconsciously called these people slut shaming Trumps wife "normal people"."

Totally unconvincing. You're struggling SD. The moderator just ruled against the affirmative, says you've got misplaced understanding of 'normal', and you should go back and reconsider your argument.

Good luck!

David H Koch, Wed 16 Nov 2016 15:27


talkingturkey, Wed 16 Nov 2016 15:48


*play & repeat.

David H Koch, Wed 16 Nov 2016 16:28


benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 16:32

Longest bow I've ever seen there sheepdog.

I'm criticising trump based on what he said and did (and says and does). It ends there. It's got nothing to do with his supporters. I'm critical of Hilary's hawkish foreign policy and that has nothing to do with her supporters. No idea why you'd conflate criticism of a candidate with the actions of the supporters of their opponent. So irrelevant it's somewhat laughable.

happyasS, Wed 16 Nov 2016 16:35

the problem with "true" free speech is that it ends up not being very fair at all and those with lots of money get to say what they want without repercussion while the poor man gets slammed for sticking his head up. we need to keep our leaders accountable otherwise all is lost.

floyd, Wed 16 Nov 2016 17:40

Yes Tonesdauchebag it is your IPAs policy to get rid of the ABC, isn't.

velocityjohnno, Wed 16 Nov 2016 17:50

No mention of Chomsky can be made without a link to the chomskybot:

Hours of fun

And: the US was not set up as a democracy. It was set up as a Republic. Hence the electoral college format. To whit, Thomas Jefferson's quote:

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe."

tonybarber, Wed 16 Nov 2016 17:58

Yep, HappyAs, money certainly gives you more 'free speech'. Here in Aus, The QUT case clearly demonstrates that. The complainant actually has no money but her legal fees are paid by a third party council. Whilst some of the students were offered a legal blackmail of $5000 and took it. Interestingly, a fourth student decided to fight or challenge, should say. Here, it seems, his legal support fees are quid quo pro.
So the question is - who should pay the fees if the case is dismissed.

chook, Wed 16 Nov 2016 18:01

no mention of chomsky can be made without referencing nim chimsky -- a chimpanzee who was the subject of a study of animal language acquisition.


stunet, Wed 16 Nov 2016 18:39

TB "Yep, HappyAs, money certainly gives you more 'free speech'. Here in Aus, The QUT case clearly demonstrates that. "

Jeez TB, let it go mate, every damn post you find a way to weave it in. There's been three 18C court cases in twenty years, it's not a great piece of law, but far better than many others. The reason it's being attacked now is on purely ideological grounds, and by continuing the Murdoch-fuelled witch hunt you're betraying your own ideological blind spot.

blindboy, Wed 16 Nov 2016 18:40

One aspect that hasn't had a mention here yet is the difficulty of getting legislation through the Senate whose rules were specifically developed to limit the power of a President. The slight Republican majority is not as significant as it sounds. US Senators have greater loyalty to their states than to their party so are unlikely to support some of his economic policies. Even without a majority the Democrats can delay legislation by manipulating the committee structure and only need a third of the vote to run an indefinite filibuster. To successfully legislate Trump will need someone with long experience and established power within the Senate when to do that would be an incredible risk to their own career given the very strong possibility that Trump, sooner rather than later, will crash and burn taking his supporters with him.

freeride76, Wed 16 Nov 2016 18:49

not sure on that strategy BB....the crash and burn one, that is.....people have been saying that about Trump: don't worry he'll crash and burn, for years now.

And here he is POTUS.

blindboy, Wed 16 Nov 2016 19:13

......almost POTUS. He still has to get through the the electoral college. You might be right freeride but there remains the point that he needs an established Senator, who does not need him to have a secure career, to work his arse off to get his legislation through. It seems a much smarter strategy to sit back and watch what happens.

talkingturkey, Wed 16 Nov 2016 19:16

Bugger Velocity Johnno, I was trying to post that Chomsky-Bot earlier in response to Kochie on the What's What? thread. BUT I CAN'T POST ANY LINKS!

Ah well...

Oi Kochie, ditto!

tonybarber, Wed 16 Nov 2016 19:39

Ok, Stu, given the recent talk about the Commish's tenure then I'll let the bone go. But....

blindboy, Wed 16 Nov 2016 19:46

The London Review Of Books has a great analysis of why Trump was elected.

tonybarber, Wed 16 Nov 2016 20:05

Could someone confirm (from a reliable source) if Trump has won the popular vote. My understanding is that this is still being counted. On the flip side, I can't see a change to this given it requires a constitutional change.

Blowin, Wed 16 Nov 2016 20:06

Thing is Benski, the problem with pointing out why Clinton was such a better candidate than Trump is that it just illustrates that you fail to grasp why Trump was voted for by anybody - anybody that doesn't have a soft spot for orange skinned, rapacious daddy's boys that is.

The reason they voted for Trump as every one has stated is because Clinton represented the establishment.

So your link that noted Trumps faults versus Clintons should be accompanied by the faults of the establishment ie growing equality, the continued selling out of the nation's workers and war , war and more war.

Iraq - hundreds of thousands dead

Afghanistan - more dead

Syria - more dead

Bali - hundreds dead through terror attacks linked to Middle East invasion

Europe - hundreds dead, society fractured, continent invaded by opportunistic economic migrants under guise of asylum seeking, increasing radicalisation and demonisation of Muslims .

Australia - fractured society through fear generation of the media and the real threat of terrorism.

Could go on and on.

You get the picture.

Remember all the reasons everyone hated Bush so much ?

Well they are still around.

That's what people voted against. You can only cop shit for so long before something has to be done.

Trump may be worse, he may not.

People rolled the dice.

happyasS, Wed 16 Nov 2016 20:25

TB. i thought that clintons lead in the popularity stakes is increasing.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 20:34

Blowin, "Thing is Benski, the problem with pointing out why Clinton was such a better candidate than Trump is that it just illustrates that you fail to grasp why Trump was voted for by anybody"

Bollocks mate. Of course I recognise the vote was in part anti-establishment and I've said as much, see one of my responses to sypkan, referring to Australian voters and punters loving up to the bloke:

"Anti-establishment is one thing but surely we've got enough nous to recognise the first anti-establishment fella isn't necessarily worth jumping behind."

As I said, that link was a joke and that means it's not meant to be taken literally, much like trump we're told now. But it highlighted the reasons why I think he is a nut job who doesn't deserve to be prez (for the little my aimless opinion is worth). The guy's a disgrace in my view and I wouldn't have voted for him if I had a say, but that doesn't mean I support the status quo or the establishment nor that I don't understand why people voted for him.

And to be clear, it wasn't just anti-establishment sentiment either, it was a lot of other things too, like plain old house hold budgeting and economics and fear of the social changes that have been running through the US for the last few decades. There's more to it than him just being, not Clinton/Bush.

Blowin, Wed 16 Nov 2016 20:55

So if you're a working class person, busy every day with your job and your family, how do you invoke change except for your vote ?

It's the only available lever to most people so they chose it.

Trump isn't great - he's not even remotely good - but how long you going to wait for the right person to come along ?

If they ever do ?

And look at the results already....even our politicians are reacting to the events around the other side of the world.

Shorten is listening , or pretending to listen , to what the traditional Labour voter wants - that they be prioritised in his people to look after.

People - some people - voted for Trump for the same reason I voted for One Nation.

Pauline Hanson is a fucking blunt instrument ....definitely not who I'd like running the country. But her bravery in standing up for what she believes in will hopefully pave the way for someone that is right for the job.

Trump might just barge a hole in the closed shop of US politics big enough to allow a few contenders to be allowed for consideration that would previously been dismissed....and the best thing that ever happened to the most powerful nation on Earth may be amongst them.

Creative destruction.

Blowin, Wed 16 Nov 2016 20:58

Benski - "And to be clear, it wasn't just anti-establishment sentiment either, it was a lot of other things too, like plain old house hold budgeting and economics and fear of the social changes that have been running through the US for the last few decades. There's more to it than him just being, not Clinton/Bush."

The items listed in this paragraph are in that situation precisely because of the Bush / Clinton establishment.

People are sick of where they are being taken , against their wishes.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 21:12

"Trump isn't great - he's not even remotely good - but how long you going to wait for the right person to come along ?"

As long as it takes for that person to show up.

Nothing you're saying is inconsistent with what I'm saying about the reason for th result. As I said earlier I thought he'd win over a year ago (until he bumbled through the convention and I changed my mind). But I won't throw my lot in with a dangerous and lecherous cretin in the hope that he somehow might turn out to be ok, despite all available evidence suggesting he won't. And I won't suddenly pretend all that stuff doesn't matter, because it does.

happyasS, Wed 16 Nov 2016 21:24

personally id rather wait too. we dont need hanson to pave the way ahead. the path lays their waiting for someone with courage and self sacrifice to walk it. there are sensible people already in australian politics. we need positive incremental advances not a curveball.

a good leader will unite the nation, not tear it apart. i will be very interested in how trump fairs in this respect.

blindboy, Wed 16 Nov 2016 21:32

Clinton currently leads the popular vote by more than 750,000.

Blowin, Wed 16 Nov 2016 21:37

And that's what it comes down to in the end.

Are you the sort of person that for some reason finds themselves in a pile of shit and just sits there and hopes that somehow your circumstance will change, or are you the sort of person that looks down at the pile of shit they're sitting in and says " fuck this " ?

floyd, Wed 16 Nov 2016 21:38

Been a big day for the Tones .... the ABC, 18c and now Clinton.

Sounding like an old record there Tones

blindboy, Wed 16 Nov 2016 21:55

...and to add to Trump's potential problems there exists the real possibility of trade sanctions against US products by the EU, Japan and various other nations if he if he abandons existing climate change commitments.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 23:01

Indeed. I'm the kind of guy who gets up and sorts out his own shit as opposed to blaming the government or the Asians or the Mexicans ;-)

Blindboy, it's not just the climate change agreement, he's talking about tearing up the WTO rule book too. Whether people like that or not the world is in with the free trade arrangements. The US has been slow to drop their trade barriers while still enforcing others to keep up the pace. If they suddenly bail on that, you can imagine the EU and China in particular are not going to wait around to put up their own. Those factory jobs he's going to restore in the Midwest will be serving a very small export market. He's kidding himself if he thinks he can sustain a manufacturing economy on domestic demand and a few agreements with Australia and England.

Blowin, Wed 16 Nov 2016 23:05

You've got nothing to worry about then Benski.

If a government isn't to blame for any of your troubles then Trump won't affect you no matter what he does.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 23:11

I'm not worried about me, I'm being magnanimous and showing concern for the deplorables who know not what they brought upon themselves... It's the innate humility that we elites possess that allows us to look out for those less intelligent than ourselves.

Don't you know.

benski, Wed 16 Nov 2016 23:32

Nothing particularly new in that but a bit of a human touch to the Facebook news bubbles.

tonybarber, Thu 17 Nov 2016 08:27

Well said ... 'we elites possess that allows us to look out for those less intelligent than ourselves'.
As someone previously said ...' find themselves in a pile of shit'.

benski, Thu 17 Nov 2016 09:35

Er, well said? I just want to make clear that comment was a joke. It was as deliberately and jokingly condescending as I could muster.

stunet, Thu 17 Nov 2016 09:41

"It was as deliberately and jokingly condescending as I could muster."

And yet you didn't include an emoji...?

benski, Thu 17 Nov 2016 09:51

Ah yes dammit, rookie mistake? :-|

I thought my "don't you know" was a giveaway toffy thing to say but you should never forget the emoji :-}

Dammit benski. stupid!


tonybarber, Thu 17 Nov 2016 11:18

Well, given the tone, vitriol of most of the comments, i took it literally as that seemed to be the jist of the chat. Maybe a bit too subtle for me. Time to get back out in the water, for me.

benski, Thu 17 Nov 2016 12:08

strewth, it does make me wonder what people think of me, when a declaration that "we elites" are so humble etc, is easily read as serious.

talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 12:15

The usual suspects need a trigger warning for certain right-on buzzwords.

"When I hear the word "elites", I reach for my gun!"


David H Koch, Thu 17 Nov 2016 12:36


talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 14:31


talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 14:32

“When people go to church, they feel part of a congregation. They feel special. They have rituals; when the fans sing (INXS’) Never Tear Us Apart, it’s spine-tingling stuff.”

Kochie IS da prez!

David H Koch, Thu 17 Nov 2016 17:36

"Post truth", word of the year

Ban on "fake news" sites

Alt right Twitter accounts purged

When the left finally realise their media propaganda industry is broken

chook, Thu 17 Nov 2016 18:30

ah, it's amusing to see the right embracing the relativism and anti-reason of post-modernism. the quadrant set must be having conniptions.

reason and the grand traditions of western culture that the right used to blather on about as marking us as superior to those lesser races and cultures was abandoned to avoid accepting global warming. amazing how they are willing to jetison two-thousand years of culture and history for a few grubby dollars.

talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 18:31

Trumpy no like Kochie?! Kochie no like Trumpy?! Huh?


David H Koch, Thu 17 Nov 2016 18:52

it would be funny except for the fact that relativism is a cancer of the left, the right will embrace it about the same time as you convince the world that there are hundreds of different genders.

typical leftist, we don't like/agree so it's unreasonable, post truth, in fact I'm gonna make up some blab about jettisoning culture for grubby money, says the free shit army.

Full round of applause for the clever girl

talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 18:53

American Future Fund advert. Hmmm, who funds them? Yo, it's Kochie! Kochie no like Trumpy?! Trumpy no like Kochie?! Huh?

David H Koch, Thu 17 Nov 2016 18:54

He's calling out everyone ey turkey, I reckon you'll be coming around to the Donald soon enough. Floyd too, he must be loving that he's made a point of dropping all lobbyists from his cabinet.

talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 19:21

Earth calling Kochie...come in, lobbyists to see here, hey? Hahahahahaha. Donald Gump is even chucking a bit of nepotism in there for good measure!

Geez, Nick Nick Nick is more with it. Freedom! Draining the swamp! Parp!


talkingturkey, Thu 17 Nov 2016 19:34

Things go better with Koch?


David H Koch, Thu 17 Nov 2016 20:05

I've been with it since I read all your tl:dr articles turkish, after reading the one on the alt right I feel like I'm with the in crowd. shame your establishment mouthpieces want to ban all that, get em trumpy!

blindboy, Thu 17 Nov 2016 20:49

Latest out of the US senate suggests Trumpy is going to suffer some severe disappointments along the way. The filibuster looks certain to survive which will allow the democrats to block significant parts of any legislation Trump initiates. Nor is there any sign of the Republican heavies stepping up to support him. My odds? 50% for impeachment within 2 years.

blindboy, Thu 17 Nov 2016 21:11

.........meanwhile, back in Oz, let's try not to vomit at the public licking of Trump's, no doubt impressive, arse by our current and previous PMs. At least the US has the imagination to elect original idiots. Ours can apparently only imitate and suck up.

Blowin, Thu 17 Nov 2016 21:36

You don't like the revised viewpoint on immigrant workers , BB?

David H Koch, Thu 17 Nov 2016 21:49

Cheers to that blindboy


blindboy, Thu 17 Nov 2016 22:21

The ventriloquist and her dummy.

Sheepdog, Thu 17 Nov 2016 22:29

Speaking of "politically correct", it's hilarious watching fascists call themselves "alt right"..... Sound like "fresh frozen" to me..... Or "genuine imitation leather".....

Maybe they should call themselves the gutless right? No balls right? Or the claytons right? ( the facsist you have when you haven;t got a fascist)

Blowin, Thu 17 Nov 2016 22:56

What's your opinion on the ( alleged and extremely coincidental ) change of political stance amongst Australian pollies regarding " guest " workers from foreign countries Blind'boy ?

Sheepdog - who or what is alt right ?

Blowin, Thu 17 Nov 2016 23:17

Anyone noticed how visibly taxing the strive to attain and hold power is on the fuckwits that seek it ?

Take a look at recent photos of Obama, Turnbull and Shorten and tell me that the pursuit of power isn't the pursuit of an early grave.

Then again , the career pollies that make it through their arduous ten year span look like well fed pigs in shit once they hit their retirement gravy years.


All of them.

Blowin, Thu 17 Nov 2016 23:23

So are they fascists or not , Sheepy ?

Maybe they just need a passionate and blisteringly poignant speechwriter that will convey to the masses who they are and why they're the right people to lead them to salvation.

Do you think they could utilise the speech you wrote to draw the nation into your benevolent bosom ,Sheepy ?



stunet, Fri 18 Nov 2016 06:36

I note Turnbull made a 'passionate and blisteringly poignant speech' yesterday noting how we need to introduce fairness into the open markets model.

“To overcome the rising disquiet, we must ensure that the benefits of open markets deliver for the many and not just a few.”

Old Mal must've run short of time 'cos he didn't say anything about his planned corporate tax cuts or the scourge of corporate tax avoidance.

Hate to think it was just hot air...

tonybarber, Fri 18 Nov 2016 07:34

Stu, the corporate tax avoidance is a global problem.

stunet, Fri 18 Nov 2016 07:50

"Stu, the corporate tax avoidance is a global problem."

Yep, but we live in Australia and Malcolm Turnbull is our leader. Hence it's a problem HE has to deal with.

sypkan, Fri 18 Nov 2016 07:50

I'll take a little fascism with my revolution if it means the alt right do what the lame left should have done eight years ago

blind faith idealism is out of date, it served, and continues to serve, no one well. Geez even the identity politics journal of the left (guardian) is questioning it's MO today, abject failure is a fantastic tool for growth



sypkan, Fri 18 Nov 2016 08:18

There's some worried Wahhabi's out there... and that's a good thing

The change in tune from Turnbull and shorten, Russia talking nice, aboriginals discussing the debilitating effects of political correctness on the drum, not to mention Muslims doing the same, geez even Leigh sales had a dig last night

Where's al this bad shit the anti trumpers scared the children with? And they did scare the children, really really scare the children.... apparently ...maybe....

I thought misleading scare campaigns were the domain of the right ?

What's not to like?...It's been all good so far..... for now.... maybe....


indo-dreaming, Fri 18 Nov 2016 08:22

This Syrian girl has some interesting things to say.

floyd, Fri 18 Nov 2016 08:54

Our resident IPA representative is up early this morning - its been a big week for the junior cadet.

I note that the big argument here to reduce corporate tax is NOW because America under Donald Dumbfuck is doing it. Apparently to remain internationally competitive we need to do it.

Well if that's true some-one needs to tell the Nordic states, you know the ones with some of the biggest sovereign wealth funds in the world.

I also note Turn-bullshiter is now saying there will be winners and losers in the economy going forward, well its always been thus but traditionally Australia had good safety nets to help people and the neo-cons are busy trying to remove them "to encourage people off welfare". The neo-cons also privatised the training sector, is now fucked after the pillaging by billions of AUD by dodgy operators. Yep, lose your job, no meaningful retraining available and no meaningful welfare.

sypkan, Fri 18 Nov 2016 09:00

Oh no, indo d!!!

you went down the paedophile occult route, I've been avoiding that to maintain the dwindling credibility I still have

If just half of the stuff out there is remotely true, there's been some twisted shit going on, I think a lot of it comes from a very right wing (questionable) perspective, but like the corruption, where's there's smoke there's undoubtedly fire... or at least a smouldering stinking compost heap of deplorability

That podesta cunt looks suss.... really really suss....just saying

Not to mention the wiener... and the 'Lolita express'.... power and money corrupts

tonybarber, Fri 18 Nov 2016 09:43

Yes, Stu, it is not only Turnbulls problem but The world. I assume you trust the Guardian news -

stunet, Fri 18 Nov 2016 09:57

I'll believe the Google Tax when I see it, TB. Truffles isn't execting any return till 2019 - how convenient - and it comes on the back of repeated staff cuts at the ATO from that other Tony.

floyd, Fri 18 Nov 2016 11:15

We are told privatisation and cutting red tape is the answer by the right ...... well, we have had billions ripped off by the private sector running career training programs; billions ripped off by fraudulent claims for child care subsidies because the Commonwealth handed monitoring responsibility to the underfunded and staffed State governments; we have had massive multi billion dollar losses of tax receipts by cheating multi nationals and the under funded/staff ATO are meant to police it; we have had a ABS fuck up the latest census after massive funding and staffing cuts ..................

and yet these jokers in Government expect punters in the electorate to cop even more tax cuts to business all the while seeing cuts to their standard of living, health, education ..... .... ....

No wonder people are angry and want to vote for dicks like Trump.

Hey Tonybarber, here's a question for you. Name one, just one, economy in the world where trickle down economic theory has led to an increase in the living standards of the average joe/jill. Just one Tones.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 11:15

Blowie asks: Who is the 'alt right' (or is it 'alt lite')? Kochie reckons he's a member? InSypo has really drunken the Trumpy 'salty/syrupy flavoured water-ade'? Or is it 'Milo'?

Straight from the horses...whatever.

“We will have so much winning if I get elected that you may get bored with winning.” - The Gump

sypkan, Fri 18 Nov 2016 11:42

You had to find the longest article possible didn't ya?

On a site that disappointingly serves up 3 paragraph introductions as articles more often than not. It's a prick of a site btw, clunky as fuck with all sorts of issues

I'm not on board turkeyman, but if a power vacuum emerges, it will always get filled, the left created it's own power vacuum by not talking about stuff and these guys filled the void.

I don't like it, I'm just pointing it out

stunet, Fri 18 Nov 2016 11:56

The left talked about it, even marched on the issues - Seattle '99? APEC? - but fuck all people listened.

Gotta remember, politics goes where people want it to, and in Australia it's the aspirational swing voters who decide the fate of the populace. While globalisation was good for them the best the left could do - meaning the institutional left, the Labor party and whatnot - was hang on and try somehow to be relevant.

If they talked about trade protection ten years ago they would've been pilloried as yesterday's party.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 12:14

Don't forget the World Economic Forum protest in Melbourne, Sept 11, 2000! Biggest mobilisation of cops I've ever seen (and I've seen a few). Don't know about that? Now, why is that I wonder?

Corporate Media, the great disseminator!

And now, the US is trapped inside the biggest 'reality show' of all. They're all 'apprentices', whether they like it or not, AND THEY'RE ALL FIRED!

Time to shoot the 'messengers'? Corporate media is still the biggest game in town...for now.

As for that Breitbart pap, co-written by THE Milo, it's an interesting look into the mind-set. Deep narcissism. And Bannon is right there on the rump of Trump!

sypkan, Fri 18 Nov 2016 12:15

Yeh, there's always someone on the left talking about stuff, and yep relevance comes and goes....fucking aspirationals!

But I'm talking about the great liberal internationalists of the left that haven't allowed a reasonable conversation about migration to take place for decades now. Instead of adapting to a changing world they bunkered down

Sheepdog, Fri 18 Nov 2016 12:28

Blowin writes "Sheepdog - who or what is alt right ?"

Fake naivety impresses nobody.

Blowin writes "Maybe they just need a passionate and blisteringly poignant speechwriter that will convey to the masses who they are and why they're the right people to lead them to salvation"

The masses? "They"?........ No the fascists ( alt right) dont need that.... You, Cock, Nick, ween, Disco biscuit have your messiah.... Seems Sypo is on the verge of joining.... But there's no need to try to win over a minority.... No need to appease the unappeasable....
And make no mistake, the facists are a minority, even though the clickbait addicted profit driven media and pathetic Australian pollies and jocks paint a different picture....
Estimates show that 231 556 622 Americans were eligible to vote in the 2016 election. Of those, lastes estimates are 134 457 600 voted. So around 96 000 000 registered voters did not vote (42%) .... On top of that, there are thsoe who couldn't be bothered to even register - latest stats have them at 92 815 000.
96 000 000 + 92 815 000 = 188 815 000............... That's right, 188 815 000 Americans did not vote..

So the non voters whipped the combined votes of Trump AND Clinton 188 815 000 to 134 457 600..

But now lets look at this so called "silent majority" of Trump to the non vote added to the democrat vote.
Clinton total vote , 60 319 493
No vote, 188 815 000.............. Total - 249134493

Trump total vote , 60 234 050

So...... Those that didn't vote for Trump - 249 million plus
Those that did vote for Trump - 60 million plus.. Out of 300 million people, Trump got 20% of the vote....
"Silent MAJORITY" my arsehole. More like loudest minority.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 12:52

Ressentiment: a psychological state resulting from suppressed feelings of envy and hatred which cannot be satisfied.


Been there, got the tee-o?


David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:10

You got a case of ressentiment warrior, is that why you keep whinging? Look it's not to say you won't get to protest again (and you've seen a few), someone will be there to pay for your free shit. Jeez it's not as if your living in Venezuela. Your favourite sources will still be pumping out the actual information, how's the slayage?

David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:23

So what your trying to say sheepshagger is that you took a whole day off work to come here and shitpost? Go back to work you bludger.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:27

Says the Centrelink Kid...or are you the general in Tones Green Army?

Things go better with Koch?


David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:31

What's the preoccupation with this guy warrior? Sounds like your nemesis, whatever would you and Bernie and the free shit army do if a libertarian got his way? You'd be begging for a job in the green army.

tonybarber, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:36

There is an interesting recent comment by Keating on Shorten - too far from the centre. I'm sure you able to get around paywalls to get to the detail.

Snuffy Smith, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:36

All it take's is one miscalculation.

Sheepdog, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:37

D'cock writes "So what your trying to say sheepshagger is that you took a whole day off work to come here and shitpost? Go back to work you bludger."


David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 14:50

Poor form sheepshit, you do realise that using retard in the pejorative is offensive to downies and other mentally challenged people like social justice snuffy.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 15:01

"What's the preoccupation with this guy warrior? Sounds like your nemesis..." says the numpty that posts as (drum roll)...DAVID H. KOCH!

Kochie, ya coward-puncher, still no joy on the 'real' job front? Blame Malcolm. What about the US, comrade? Brickie? Swamp-drainer? Milo barista?

David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 15:06

Yep ressentiment for sure, bad case by the looks!

Snuffy Smith, Fri 18 Nov 2016 15:06

Haha David if you really watched what I posted you would know that we have been cooked some more than other's.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 15:17



Ha ha ha! Stop it! You're killing me...

Poor bugger.

David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 15:22

Caps will get your message across, you ressentiment bro?

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 16:30

Earth calling DAVID H. KOCH...

BTW why didn't you just name yourself after Milo Yiannopoulos (he loves Trumpy)...bit long I s'pose...and he's, well, you know...or that Nassim Taleb unit? Hang on, he was a Sanders man.

What about just calling yourself DONALD TRUMP? No conflicts there. Donald lurves the Donald.

There. Fixed it.

I'm a fixer.

Sheepdog, Fri 18 Nov 2016 19:07

D'cock writes "Poor form sheepshit, you do realise that using retard in the pejorative is offensive to downies and other mentally challenged people like social justice snuffy."

Oh really..... Why don't you write down your concerns and mail them to someone that gives a shit...

Turkman writes "BTW why didn't you just name yourself after Milo Yiannopoulos (he loves Trumpy)"

Nah.... David likes Koch..... He loves Koch..... And there's nothing wrong with that..... So let him call himself Koch.

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 19:14

But Trump doesn't love Koch. What a bummer...for Koch. Milo loves Trump, but.

I'm confused.

Sheepdog, Fri 18 Nov 2016 19:28

You're confused? Well...... Apparently it's all Mal Fraser's fault according to Adolf Dutton....

"if they're not confused, they don't get it".......

talkingturkey, Fri 18 Nov 2016 19:44

Forget that 'alt-right' shite, heeeeeeeeeeeere's 'neo-reaction'!

David H Koch, Fri 18 Nov 2016 20:24

What we do without the turkey to keep everyone illuminated, 'with it' so to speak, who would laugh at sheepshit's homophobic jokes?

Sheepdog, Fri 18 Nov 2016 20:58

D'cock... It's plain to see you're too much of a sook to be a 1/2 decent troll.

udo, Fri 18 Nov 2016 21:09


blindboy, Fri 18 Nov 2016 22:06

Trump's future, assuming he survives the electoral college, will be decided in the Senate. Legislation passed by the House, first has to pass through the Senate committee system which has the power to delay and/or amend it out of functional existence before it gets to the floor. Committee chairmen are powerful figures and one, McCain of the Armed Forces committee, has already indicated concerns about Trump's policies. Not a great start.
Legislation that does manage to get out of committee then faces two opportunities for the minor party to exercise their greatest weapon, the filibuster, which entitles any Senator to talk at indefinite length, relevant or not. They can, quite literally, read the Bible into the Congressional Record, unchallenged. The first opportunity is to filibuster on the debate to bring the legislation to a vote. The second is to filibuster on the debate before the vote itself. To shut down a filibuster (cloture) requires a two thirds majority. This will be impossible to achieve on any of Trump's more controversial proposals.
Equally important is that the Senate has the power to impeach the President and, given Trump's performance so far, are unlikely to have to wait long for a reason. Republicans have as much motivation as Democrats to get rid of him. To survive he would need much more powerful and politically capable allies than he has at the moment. So all you, belated, Trumpistas, enjoy the moment, it's unlikely to last.

sypkan, Fri 18 Nov 2016 22:22

That's some pretty dark sheet goin on there turkeyman

A lot of aspergers nut jobs not getting enough sunlight, not attractive to me at all turkeyman, I like surfing and stuff.....computers suck, aspergers sucks, people locked in concrete boxes sucks, individually not healthy... combined together... damn ugly...

It's all very fitting for our times though, all a bit chicken and egg really

You better lift your game.... the competition is fierce....can't you reduce that shit you post to five dot points and a conclusion?

There's a lot of Malthusian versus cornucopian going on, maybe not Lamb, he's a nihilist nut job with a science fiction script in his head

The question is what to do about it turkeyman?

Condemning normal people for their concerns about the sale of their children futures' has just fostered it's development in the dark corners. Conversations were needed along time ago, not now

To be honest I have no fear at all of all this white supremacist hyperbole flying around at the moment. People aren't going back to that rubbish. Every country has it's pure blood fruitcakes, in Japan they drive around in utes with massive loud speakers, even in the hyper-conforming groupthink monoculture of Japan most people think they're dickheads. All this overzealous PC shit just seems to come from above to control power and place it above questioning. it had a place but it fed on itself so much it's now a beast on it's own, self perpetuating, policed by virtue signalling mid level minions

The whole point is, with the internet you can no longer control what people say read access think, old power structures seem to be having trouble adjusting to that, if they don't tell us someone else will...

Blowin, Fri 18 Nov 2016 22:30

So you will be rubbing your hands with glee if Trump falters and the world resumes it's inexorable march toward irreducible inequality ?

Lot of i words in there for you BB , but you get the picture - same , same as before the vote but more of the not so good stuff such as the majority of the western world populated by the working poor and lots more war in the more foreign parts of the world.

Sounds fun , huh ?

blindboy, Fri 18 Nov 2016 22:40

Lots of problems in the world Blowin'. Personally I find it hard to believe that Trump offers solutions to any of them. Narcissists tend to see everything thought the lens of self-interest. He also lacks the intellectual horse power, the political experience and the moral judgement to hold high office. He is an example of what happens when nations fail to adequately educate their population and allow ignorant medieval philosophies to flourish. Oh and lots of words? Maybe I have something more than insults and banter to contribute to the debate.

Blowin, Sat 19 Nov 2016 00:23

So the USA is a lot dumber than 4 years ago when they elected Obama ?

Ignorant medieval philosophies ?

You referring to religion ?

freeride76, Sat 19 Nov 2016 07:11

Trump has no answers for reducing inequality..........he'll accelerate the process beyond belief.

sypkan, Sat 19 Nov 2016 07:37

You're right freeride, his tax cuts are just fucking scary, but who knows they might get the economy rocking

The thing is the other side's agenda for fighting inequality was doing nothing either. In fact it was having negative effects as it focussed on the unique specialness of individuals in the category of the well to do, while those not wealthy enough to feel special - to be 'diverse' can suck it up white boy ....and girl!

This stuff ain't so bad, but as this article points out, 25 yeas of that crap has created the me me me generation we have now, who don't understand democracy, and who are unwilling to accept the will of the people when it doesn't go the way of the snowflake.

Trump is an arsehole, but finding balance is difficult for all sides, to quote Bernie, as the article does, people are sick and tired of hearing about liberals bathrooms... hear fucking hear!!!

Priorities snowflakes priorities.... a black lesbian Hispanic bisexual underworked former factory worker is not empowered by Clinton's glass ceiling smashing.... actually they're quite resentful of it

floyd, Sat 19 Nov 2016 07:38

Blowin asks " So the USA is a lot dumber than 4 years ago when they elected Obama ?"
Some questions need not be asked in the current circumstances.

sypkan, Sat 19 Nov 2016 07:42

Communication 'liberals'... not excommunication!

indo-dreaming, Sat 19 Nov 2016 07:48

The USA isn't dumber than 4 years ago, they are just obviously frustrated and looking for change, Obama was very likeable and expected to be a kind of saviour but things didn't really change too much under his presidency.

Voters had two choices this time to elect Hillary who would definitely not provide much change, or take a risk and flip the coin on Trump.

It's really that simple.

floyd, Sat 19 Nov 2016 08:05

Sypkan, what is scary is people voting for Trump (or Brexit) and not knowing in the slightest the full consequences of what might eventuate.

If you want to see what Trumps tax cuts look like study what happened to America under Reagan ... the rich took the take cuts and held onto them and necessary reduction in government services given the lower tax base hit the poorest hardest ... Trumps rust belters.

Now you say the other side weren't doing anything .... two things .... (1.) there is no comparing the Democrat Party to Trump, the two aren't equal in anyway and that will increasingly emerge over the next 1-4 years (however long his presidency lasts). Having Trump for president is like asking your motor mechanic to perform open heart surgery, he is not up to the job. (2.) your statement implies the Democrats doing nothing (which is wrong) is a bad thing in comparison to not knowing what knowing damage Trump will do. The Democrats had a plan under Obama but it was mostly blocked by the Republicans in Congress/Senate and Clinton also had a plan (Sanders inspired). So your statement isn't correct.

You reference that there has been 25 years (possibly more) of political crap in the US and that takes me back to before the Reagan years when both sides of politics in the US co-operated with each other for the "good of the country" but with and since Reagan that sense of good will, of working together for the good of the country has been thrown out (sounds familiar doesn't it? also happening here where its better to get a political point on your opposite than to work for the betterment of the country). The crap the article refers to isn't a product of the "left" but IMO more a product of the right e.g. Howard's "battle of ideas" that continues to this day e.g. Dutton's statements of yesterday attempting to rewrite Fraser's legacy.

By the way, if you want to know the last president that saw the economy do well and those rust belters do better look no further than a Clinton.

freeride76, Sat 19 Nov 2016 08:17

Actually Trump probably will get some people back to work with a massive expansion of the military, and now that he has appointed three hawkish cats to cabinet (Mike Pompeo and Mike Flynn) we'll see how all these "hail mary, he can't be all that bad" cats think about Trump bringing peace and stability to the world.

Do you really think he's going to have a massive expansion of the military (mostly the navy) and leave all those warships idle in the harbour?

sharkman, Sat 19 Nov 2016 09:49

The USA isn't dumber than 4 years ago, they are just obviously frustrated and looking for change, Obama was very likeable and expected to be a kind of saviour but things didn't really change too much under his presidency.

Voters had two choices this time to elect Hillary who would definitely not provide much change, or take a risk and flip the coin on Trump.

It's really that simple.

Indo , one of the greatest problems faced by voters in the USA , is they were sold the fallacy that the USA was in big trouble and that Obama had done little to better the lives Americans , in fact he was and is responsible for America not being great anymore.
The real story of course is a lot different ,as when Obama came to power Bush nicely shook his hand and mentioned ,
Ah just $700 Billion to the banks to try and stop the GFC meltdown , and the economys in the worst condition since the 1920's depression!
Ah got into a bit of a war in Iraq , ah and Afghanistan , and there's a new terrorist group called Al Queda , with an Osama Bin Laden Character at Large , who wants death to all americans...

now Barak just inherited republican Mess , unprecedented in USA history and so today the USA need to put up interest rates , their unemployment levels are 2% off what they call full employment (around the 4% mark) they have the best performing economy in the world , got Bin Laden , got the bulk of their troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan , pretty amazing when you also see that Obamacare was brought in also.

Obama performed a miracle on the USA economy , brought back a bit of class to the USA but being a blackman with a black family certainly did him no favors .

The amazing thing about all of this is now we have a USA president that is at the other end of the spectrum to Obama and the Americans have conveniently overlooked what Obama has delivered for them and now they just want more , because more is more better!!

sypkan, Sat 19 Nov 2016 09:50

Trump is the symptom not the problem .....he certainly isn't the solution

But just like a smacky... sometimes you've got to hit rock bottom before things get better

You're right about politics developing into the unworkable Floyd, everywhere, not just US,, but it seems identity politics contributed to that as well, as everyone bunkers down behind their identity, not accepting other opinions. Not looking at big picture goals to benefit society rather than individuals. I don't like trump's plans at all but the one chance he's got is, he does have that power of the senate that hamstrung Obama.

Even if you don't agree with an agenda, there's a lot to be said for having the ability to get things done. People have lost faith in the system , both here and US because governments couldn't get anything done due to tight numbers.

As that guardian article points out the system has become incredibly top heavy, with both parties (same in oz) full of people who do nothing but fight for power. They produce nothing, just misinformation and diversions. Now I know their worldview is western democracies not actually producing anything. Just having 'professionals' offering services domestically and to the factory countries, but as we've seen that doesn't quite work. Not least because Asian countries are better at financial services and personal 'you're a goddess and deserve it' type services than we are. Plus people have pride in what they do, or at least like to. Our goal s to be a consumer society, it's a bit of commie perspective, but there's no pride in being a consumer society.

Trump's whole thing is cutting through the crap, the bureaucracy and red tape. This is not good for the environment and stuff, but it does have the potential to get things moving. I never thought (and still don't fully believe because it's brietbart) that manufacturing could come back, but when you read the difference in labour costs for a $700 I phone between US and china is only $12, this guys cockamamie ideas might just work.... If they don't who cares, gave it a go, he will be convincingly voted out next election and he will have still achieved the biggest political achievement in our life time

Draining the swamp!!!

I don't think he's a warmonger, he's building stuff up for a defensive strategy, not Hilary's interventionist one, he might become dangerous, drunk with power - like Hilary did - but people won't stand for it

sypkan, Sat 19 Nov 2016 09:52


sypkan, Sat 19 Nov 2016 09:59

I reposted because several attempts at editing didn't work

You guys really need to sort that spam software out... it's crap...Id be looking for a refund

While you're at it, give brietbart some pointers, that website really is a dog to use

The best darkroom dwellers in the business and that's their website? ....seriously... it's a pig of a thing. And the capslock headlines..... hilarious...I now see where Koch and co. get it from

floyd, Sat 19 Nov 2016 10:03

I agree about your comment about "identity politics" sypkan.

Leaders lead and therein is the problem. Where is the leadership?

We are constantly sold the politics of fear and exclusion by our political leaders for their political gain - whatever the issue its always there ... be afraid of this or that.

IMO the right of politics and their media are particularly good at this, again this battle of ideas thing, and it is seen everywhere. E.G. In the UK the right promised to spend all that cash spent in/on the EU on British health care only to change its mind the day after the vote, Trump with his wall or here with stop the boats, debt and deficit and leaners and lifters blah blah bullshit.

It the job of leaders to unite and lead people in a direction. What we have here are political opportunists whose modus operandi is to divide people into camps (your identity politics theme), make them angry (e.g. Hanson) and then exploit the differences.

IMHO its a crass dirty political technique used mostly by the right and its lazy, its far harder to bring all the people along on a national building idea.

We all deserve better but the answer isn't voting for a Trump or a Hanson or the next big populist politician that sees an opportunity in the market.

tonybarber, Sat 19 Nov 2016 12:57

Its important to note that under Obama the rich (top 10% wage earners) got richer whilst the rest (90%) actually got poorer. More than under the Bush era. Data from the Social Security Administration shows that 38 per cent of all American workers earned less than $US20,000 last year. The federal poverty level for a family of five is $US28,410. Incidentally, figures this week from the ABS show wages growth of 1.9 per cent over the past year, half what it was four years ago and the lowest on record. Without a middle class that has disposable income, countries don’t grow by much, mainly because the rich tend to accumulate assets with their excess cash while the poor and middle class spend it. And you can’t spend what you don’t have.
This trend, repeated across the Western world but especially in the UK, is a reversal of what many members would have experienced in their youth. The post-war boom, which led to a huge and prosperous middle class, is now beginning to look like an outlier. It’s possible Trump’s appeal was in the implicit promise, sincere or otherwise, to reverse this trend.

floyd, Sat 19 Nov 2016 14:43

TB, your statement about rich accumulating assets is a compelling reason for Trump not to go ahead with his tax cuts which will favour them. It is equally the very reason Turn-bullshiter should proceed here with tax cuts to the wealthy and business. Far better to spend the money directly on infrastructure.

Statistics can prove anything you like! Comparing the Obama era with that of Bush is disingenuous. There would possibly be thousands of reasons why the statistic may be right or wrong (I'm not checking it) but as we all know the Republicans played very hard ball with anything Obama wanted to do that would improve the quality of the "working poor" and/especially or around taxation measures. Just how many times did the Republicans take the country to the brink of bankruptcy by refusing a continuation of debt limits?

Linking your last comment to BB's on another thread about these forums, its one thing to disagree its another to misrepresent what the facts really are, as I said disingenuous.

sypkan, Sun 20 Nov 2016 10:57

"peak neoliberalism, where a distorted version of identity politics is used to defend an oligarchy and a national security state, celebrating diversity in management of exploitation and warfare."


blindboy, Sun 20 Nov 2016 19:29

At his satanic majesty's request? In case you missed this from Steve Bannon.

" Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan - that's power. It only helps us when they get it wrong - when they are blind to who we are; and what we're doing"

Black mass at the White House?

Blowin, Sun 20 Nov 2016 19:43

Blindboy: getting emotional at the political conversations he is privy to.

Why don't you backtrack to when the USA was about to invade Iraq, remember how you felt THEN when something real was going down , then realise you're tilting at windmills regarding any "possible future " evilness that may or may not occur.

You're so keen to fight the good fight - why are you upset when someone may potentially derail all the evils that you should have been rallying against for the last 30 years ?

Blowin, Sun 20 Nov 2016 19:49

If you were wondering about the contrast between reportage and fact, then here is a little insight. .

Read the comments after the article.

Not forgetting that articles like this have been a staple for years. The journalist basing their biased argument on false morality as opposed to community reality.

For what is nationalism if not communityism ?

Is that a word ?

Fuck it, it is now.

For too long have the abstract conceptualists behind the idea of globalism hijacked the reality of nationalism and painted it as a one way path to the rare and unlikely ideologies of a certain nation circa 1939.

The Australian nation is a mere extrapolation of the communities that make up our island home. They are not as diverse as the media would have you believe. We have a national identity , a national culture and a national set of virtues.

blindboy, Sun 20 Nov 2016 20:47

Blowin' this time you have totally defeated my powers of comprehension and logic. Do you want to try that again so that it makes something like sense? How did I feel about the invasion of Iraq? A bit jaded since I had been forcibly ejected from the Senate for protesting against Gulf War 1, so I actually landed in Padang the day of shock and awe and spent two weeks surfing the Mentawais with only three boats in the entire area.

indo-dreaming, Sun 20 Nov 2016 21:16

"Anti trump protest in Melbourne"

This is just weird.


Blowin, Sun 20 Nov 2016 22:34

Whacko I was at the ments around the same time.

I was as aghast at the cocks perpetrating war in the Middle East as I am at those that wish to continue business as normal, with a tasty little provocation of Russia thrown in for good measure.

Why are you so hesitant to back someone that MAY NOT continue in this vein if your so against it in the first place ?

Because he wasn't married to someone that was president and by proxy was assumed to be eligible for the job themselves ala Clinton ?

Is Michelle Obama qualified because she wears appropriate clothes and doesn't make a prick of herself with when reciting her preordained speeches ?

USA as is will continue to kill innocents in a war you decry unless opposed now as you did then.

Kudos for the original efforts against the war by the way....but what effect did that approach have ?

Fuck ALL effect.

PS. You never answer my question regarding your feelings on the current ( pretend) attempt by the government and opposition to abolish - whoops, too strong a word , minimise - still too strong, water down (?) the use of inappropriate and redundant immigrant labour ?

Actually they're not even going to water it down are they ?

Let's just agree that they'll briefly shine a dim light on the subject before moving too radically increase immigration of all forms.

floyd, Mon 21 Nov 2016 06:02

To be fair to the Donald, I'm thinking all news about his presidency ought to be in the entertainment section of newspapers and the media.

blindboy, Mon 21 Nov 2016 10:09

Blowin' in case you have missed the numerous reports on Trump's complete unsuitability for the position. I will summarize. He is a racist,misogynist bully who has demonstrated almost complete ignorance of the political realities of foreign policy. To believe thatTrump's Presidency will be anything other than a disaster requires a degree of willful ignorance. Good luck with that.

sharkman, Mon 21 Nov 2016 10:18

BB please explain, Identity, culture and virtues of Australia?
" The Australian nation is a mere extrapolation of the communities that make up our island home. They are not as diverse as the media would have you believe. We have a national identity , a national culture and a national set of virtues."

would you include our immigration/refugee policy or the treatment of Indigenous peoples , and or that One Nation is now the fastest growing political party , and what about our cricket team?

tonybarber, Mon 21 Nov 2016 13:40

Interesting to see how many are just dismissing a result in the land of democracy. It is even more of concern that these same also want the result to fail.

blindboy, Mon 21 Nov 2016 13:55

sharkman that was not my quote so I am am not entering that discussion.

tb no-one with any knowledge of the US system would consider it anything but a plutocracy. Rule by the rich. On that score nothing has changed. As for wanting it to fail, why not? Trump is clearly a threat to the global economy, world peace and the progress of anti-discrimination. The US electorate is characterised by poor education and over-exposure to news media dominated by the interests of a very small section of the wealthiest people in the country. The fact that enough of them were taken in does not mean the rest of us should be.

tonybarber, Mon 21 Nov 2016 14:24

BB, I'm not a US citizen and don't have a good handle on its government but I would guess that most US citz, would disagree about the 'plutocracy'. Interestingly, the idea of 'plutocracy' has become more pronounced under Obama - the worst period for the middle class. This apparently started with the Clinton era, continuing under Bush then got worse with Obama.
I don't see the 'clearly a threat to world peace'. Russia does not seemed alarmed at this stage. China is the unknown. Where else or who else could impact 'world peace'.
Should one accept the result.

talkingturkey, Mon 21 Nov 2016 14:34

"You better lift your game.... the competition is fierce....can't you reduce that shit you post to five dot points and a conclusion?"

Righto,'s this?

This expresses the 'Alt-right' formula that Alex Birch and Brett Stevens worked up for AMERIKA (helluva web-site...emphasis on 'hell'):

a) Anti-democracy. Realizing that mob rule and trends do not successfully substitute for leadership by quality people.

b) Human Biodiversity (HBD). Recognizing the differences between groups, and more importantly individuals, and that every ability fits a normal distribution pattern in every population.

c) Ethnic Self-Determination. Every ethnic group needs its own self-rule and its own continent. This is not an argument against any specific ethnic group but a recognition that each group has its own self-interest and that under diversity these clash. Diversity does not work, no matter which groups are the ingredients.

d) Transcendental Purpose. We must find some way to connect to the beauty of this world and understand nature as an order superior to our own intentions, possibly including the metaphysical side of nature which is described by the various religions.

e) Anti-equality. Equality works for arithmetic, not people and not groups, including social castes, races, ethnic groups and families. People are different, with different abilities that are mostly genetic if not all genetic.

In a time when many people want to enter the Alt Right, and control it by redefining it, it is important to remember this bottom line: The Alt Right is against equality.

(All their words...defo not mine. Seem familiar?)

yocal, Mon 21 Nov 2016 14:56

you don't think Trump won because of his promises to disrupt the plutocracy (ie: slogans like 'drain the swamp' of elites)?
I felt the resentment of the 'plutocracy' was the core sentiment of the Trump vote. Fear of an 'elitist' led Globalisation of industry was Trump's construct. His argument: The 'elites' took the industry away from America and lined their pockets, opened up the borders. Now Trump offers to close the doors and bring industry back in a fight for 'equality' for the middle class industry (who dominated the Trump vote).

Out of interest, do you think Obama led the nation toward a worsening of the existing plutocracy by way of his own policy or do you think it was due lack of change from previous agendas & other forces at play?

tonybarber, Mon 21 Nov 2016 15:40

YL, From this distance and from I saw, yes, I think Trump did disrupt the 'plutocracy' and more of course. The info I have is that middle America suffered from Clinton to Bush to Obama with the Obama era being the worse. Trump seemed to promote major changes and it seems this resonated with a large majority. In essence the 'plutocracy' has become more pronounced over the last few presidencies. Not sure if the US is a pure plutocracy. I'm sure the average US citizen does not want it. But I don't believe in the 'threat to world peace'. That just seems to be many not accepting the result.
BTW, this is what Keating is saying about our Labor party also.

blindboy, Mon 21 Nov 2016 16:08

So how does a billionaire becoming President disrupt rule by the Rich?

floyd, Mon 21 Nov 2016 16:33

It really is staggering beyond belief what people are now saying to in the political world and in the media to "normalise" a Trump victory and presidency.

I heard Trump's authorised biographer speak yesterday. He was absolutely scathing of the hollowness of the man calling him a serious "almost pathological" liar and "a flawed man" who has spent his entire life driven by only one thing, that is, his own self interest". He added he will not change as president, "he will be entirely driven by what is in his personal best interest".

It cannot be stated enough, there is nothing normal about this. Trump is not, and never will be, up to the job. The best America and the world can hope for is an impeachable scandal early in 2017 so I'm with Blindboy on this one.

Tonybarber, I note your comment about the presidential eras, but may I suggests the seeds for any American plutocracy were sown by Reagan and his voodoo economics tax cuts. Subsequent presidents had to deal with the mess left behind although Bush had a good crack of lowing taxes while increasing spending to further weaken the US economy. Clinton did rectify the mess some what and the economy was in way better shape after his 2 terms. Any objective discussion of the Obama presidency would include a discussion on how he was hamstrung by the republican congress and the senate. Now jump forward to the present day, how will Trump's proposed tax cuts help the rust belts?

blindboy, Mon 21 Nov 2016 16:43

tb re the threat to world peace. We now have a narcissistic impulsive bully with no foreign policy experience with the capacity to unilaterally start a nuclear war.......and you don't think that is a risk?

tonybarber, Mon 21 Nov 2016 17:28

BB, a risk yes, of course, likewise for many of the other nations with nuclear arms. Also those aspiring to get nuclear arms. Probably more so from the latter since you would have to ask - why do they want nuclear arms.
With Trump, I don't think he has threaten any such action or made such threats. As opposed to Russia, Iran and now china with the South China Sea issue. Hence your point is purely conjecture at this point.

blindboy, Mon 21 Nov 2016 18:00

Conjecture? Immediately after being sworn in he will be given a brief case which contains the codes necessary to launch a nuclear attack......and you, in an ignorance of world affairs even greater than Trump's, cannot bring yourself to see that this is hugely destabilising? That this represents an unprecedented risk? Let me spell it out. Every other nuclear armed nation knows with absolute certainty that a first strike at the US would result in oblivion. The balance of nuclear power is that simple. Yes they might take out some US cities but their nation would be turned into a nuclear wasteland by US retaliation. They have, therefore, nothing to gain from a first strike. The same logic does not apply to the US. If they strike first non-nuclear nations could not respond at all and most nuclear armed nations would not be able to amount a serious response. In fact, given that the US could take out most of their nuclear capacity with their first strike, they might not be able to respond at all. You should pull your head out of the sand tb, the lack of oxygen down there is reducing your cognitive abilities.

chook, Mon 21 Nov 2016 18:23

wouldn't any nuke attack, even without reataliation, plunge the whole world into utter chaos and see markets collapse?

Sheepdog, Mon 21 Nov 2016 19:48

BB..... You forgot about the nuclear armed submarines.... I'd say Russia and China at least would have a contingency plan if attacked with nukes...... They could turn the USA into a wasteland.

blindboy, Mon 21 Nov 2016 21:07

Sheepy not even Trump is crazy enough to launch an attack China or Russia. Sadly there is much less certainty about his response to provocation from say North Korea or Iran. The reality is that the chances of these events remain small but have risen with his election. If you look at the sequence of events around the Cuban missile crisis in the sixties it is clear that the only things that saved the world from a significant nuclear exchange were the cool heads of the leaders Kruschev and Kennedy, both of whom had serious first hand experience of both war and politics. Trump not only lacks those experiences but has demonstrated impulsive irresponsible behaviour and an inability to keep his comments within diplomatic bounds.

happyasS, Mon 21 Nov 2016 21:28

in this day and age if a country is attacked with nukes its game over. a dozen warheads directed strategically at china, russia, or the US would disable that countries defences completely.

god help us if it ever happens.

Rabbits68, Mon 21 Nov 2016 23:48

Why continue to make nuclear weapons if they're never going to be used? Keeping up with the Jones's? Someone will do it one day in the future IMO. We're talking about human beings here, not robots....

nick3, Tue 22 Nov 2016 06:44

Fuck are you people for real. It is even less of a threat that there would be a nuclear war with Trump.
Vladimir Putin and people close to him have made no secret that they woiuld prefer dealing with Trump than that war mongering Clinton.

yocal, Tue 22 Nov 2016 06:57

@Floyd, how does Trump's authorised biographer describe his subject like that without quickly becoming unauthorised to be Trumps biographer? Keen to read up. What's his name?

floyd, Tue 22 Nov 2016 08:09

@yocal, I would take it that the book has been already written and trying to find the link (unsuccessfully) for the TV interview for you I see there has been several biographers over the year, the most recent is this guy ......

floyd, Tue 22 Nov 2016 08:22

Check out this Richard B Spencer from Australia's Alt-Right has been caught out speaking German, citing Nazi propaganda and his audience calling out "hell victory" in regard to Trump.

Where are the Blues Brothers when you need them ........ Fucking Nazi Party

tonybarber, Tue 22 Nov 2016 10:22

No BB, I've got my head in a bunker and not sand. Puns aside, there is a less of risk with Russia and China.
Iran is a dark horse but let's be real here, the Israeli s will hit them. so you think the US would or could (with Trump) do a first strike. Doubt it, very much doubt it.
No fear here, back to the sand between my toes.

nick3, Wed 23 Nov 2016 13:59

I know you guys don't like anything a say but this link to a speech by Vladmir Putin and is very interesting and might put a few things in prospective regarding Iran and among other things.

talkingturkey, Wed 23 Nov 2016 14:43

Nick Nick Nick, I ask you, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

indo-dreaming, Wed 23 Nov 2016 15:28

12 pages.

I was curious and had a look at the Politics forum in the Surfer Mag forum, few Trump related threads but nothing over 6 pages.

And they are a USA site, go figure.

nick3, Wed 23 Nov 2016 15:32

I like to hear both sides of the story. You can draw your own opinion.

tonybarber, Wed 23 Nov 2016 16:08

Interesting link with Putin's speech. I take that back about Iran's threat. I must admit there is a great story on Siemans (German company) finding of the Stuxnet virus in Iran. Should have realised that the west has a good handle on Iran's nuclear systems.

stunet, Wed 23 Nov 2016 16:10

The what virus?

talkingturkey, Wed 23 Nov 2016 18:35

The 'your new nickname' virus, Stuxnet!

tonybarber, Wed 23 Nov 2016 18:48

Stuxnet - probably the best spy / virus story in the last 20 years. Google it.
Make sure you read how the Germans resolved it.

nick3, Thu 24 Nov 2016 09:58

Talkingturkey just because I post a link to Vladimir Putin doesn't make me a communist I was just giving a different prospective on some of the thing happening around the world. Like I said take what you want out of it. I am not saying it is right or wrong.
The more I think about it what is happening around the world I believe it is all about the proposition of a One World Government. I look at the emergence of the European Union, the ousting of Sadden Hussain of the pretext of weapons of mass destruction, the ousting of Colonel Gaddafi on the basis of helping terrorism and supressing his people both to be replaced by a so called democratic government which in my eyes are just puppets for the USA and United Nation. This might upset a lot of you but to me the threat of Global Warming is just away of putting in place huge Global Tax which flows back to the United Nations ( IMF ) and World bank. The election of United Nation Secretary General Antonio Guterres who is a big believer of a world let by UN Parliament.
This and other things is all part of a push to control the masses by as a whole.
So people like Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, China, Iran or anyone who goes against the grain is absolutely vilified to the point that were most people believe the world is at danger or world will be a better place without certain people that hopefully will give the UN the right to medal in world affairs.
We are all being manipulated to believe United Nation have our interest at heart.

talkingturkey, Thu 24 Nov 2016 12:00

Nick Nick Nick, check out 'Agenda 21'. Maybe type in 'Beck' with it. Knock yourself out. Literally.

tonybarber, Thu 24 Nov 2016 16:25

If you believe Agenda 21 has a good chance to succeed then you only have to look at the European Union how difficult that would be. And that is with so called 'developed' nations. In the next few months, Italy may leave and then there are the others, such as Turkey.

indo-dreaming, Thu 24 Nov 2016 19:34

Okay close the thread the man has spoken, The Dalai Lama has no worries with Trump as president it's all good.'-about-Trump's-election

indo-dreaming, Thu 24 Nov 2016 19:35

WTF?...I could post a link and i didn't even have to jump any hurdles? Just one click.

talkingturkey, Thu 24 Nov 2016 19:47

Draining the swamp??

"President-elect Donald Trump has reportedly chosen Betsy DeVos to be his first secretary of education—and, according to Bloomberg's Jennifer Jacobs, the Michigan Republican has accepted the job.

Former Mother Jones reporter Andy Kroll profiled the DeVos family and its "plan to defund the left" in these pages back in 2014:

The Devoses sit alongside the Kochs, the Bradleys, and the Coorses as founding families of the modern conservative movement. Since 1970, DeVos family members have invested at least $200 million in a host of right-wing causes—think tanks, media outlets, political committees, evangelical outfits, and a string of advocacy groups. They have helped fund nearly every prominent Republican running for national office and underwritten a laundry list of conservative campaigns on issues ranging from charter schools and vouchers to anti-gay-marriage and anti-tax ballot measures. "There's not a Republican president or presidential candidate in the last 50 years who hasn't known the DeVoses," says Saul Anuzis, a former chairman of the Michigan Republican Party.

Betsy is a member of the conservative clan through her marriage to Dick DeVos.

Betsy, who is 56, is the political junkie in the relationship. She got her start in politics as a "scatter-blitzer" for Gerald Ford's 1976 presidential campaign, which bused eager young volunteers to various cities so they could blanket them with campaign flyers. In the '80s and '90s, Betsy climbed the party ranks to become a Republican National Committeewoman, chair numerous US House and Senate campaigns in Michigan, lead statewide party fundraising, and serve two terms as chair of the Michigan Republican Party. In 2003, she returned at the request of the Bush White House to dig the party out of $1.2 million in debt."

nick3, Thu 24 Nov 2016 20:33

First I have heard about that Agenda 21.
Just read it thought to myself that is one big con to make us freely except being ruled by a dictatorship and believe it is for the benefit of humanity.
The goals they wish to see happen cannot be achieved. Whilst humans have different cultures, idea's on religion, ethics and basically different beliefs on how you should live and what you should achieve. There will never be peace or equality.

freeride76, Sat 26 Nov 2016 07:35

From the Washington Post.

"The billionaire real estate developer also dismissed any need to disentangle himself from his financial holdings, despite rising questions about how his global business dealings might affect his decision-making as the nation’s chief executive.

[Trump’s new interview with the New York Times isn’t reassuring. It’s deeply alarming.]

And it’s not just that; at the same time, the Trump administration and congressional Republicans are getting ready to move on their highest priorities, cutting taxes for the wealthy, scrapping oversight on Wall Street, and lightening regulations on big corporations.

Imagine you’re one of those folks who went to Trump rallies and thrilled to his promises to take America back from the establishment, who felt your heart stir as he promised to torture prisoners, who got your “Trump That Bitch” T-shirt, who was overjoyed to finally have a candidate who tells it like it is. What are you thinking as you watch this?

If you have any sense, you’re coming to the realization that it was all a scam. You got played. While you were chanting “Lock her up!” he was laughing at you for being so gullible. While you were dreaming about how you’d have an advocate in the Oval Office, he was dreaming about how he could use it to make himself richer. He hasn’t even taken office yet and everything he told you is already being revealed as a lie."

Wow, a serial conman and shyster running true to form, who woulda thunk it.

lostdoggy, Sat 26 Nov 2016 09:01

People don't like being wrong so will convince themselves it is not him fucking them over.

Blowin, Sat 26 Nov 2016 19:25

Free ride - So you'd basically feel the same as any voter that's been on the winning side of an election in the last 20 years ?

freeride76, Sat 26 Nov 2016 20:34

Trump is really setting a new bar here as far as breaking promises goes, before he's even been sworn in he's pretty much backflipped on his entire campaign.

Thats mendacity and outright con of a whole new dimension.

freeride76, Sat 03 Dec 2016 07:39

Trump really standing up to Wall Street and corporations.........stacking his cabinet with the ultra rich and caving in like the mendacious mega-hypocritical conman he's spend his whole life perfecting.

floyd, Sat 03 Dec 2016 08:20

Yeah, wonder how many of his dimwitted supporters still think he is going to stick it up "the establishment".

David H Koch, Sat 03 Dec 2016 09:00

Shout outs to the people who still read, believe, cite Washington Post

freeride76, Sat 03 Dec 2016 09:39

True. Facebook and infowars are so much more reliable.

freeride76, Sat 03 Dec 2016 09:41

When the penny drops that the people have signed up for an arse raping of biblical proportions.

sharkman, Sat 03 Dec 2016 11:13

ohhh arse raping......How about , Australia's LNG , is being sold overseas ,and Australia get nothing , no royalties , no tax , more than a billion $'s a year.
We get the unions/ building industry getting a new watchdog , but the multi nationals still pay minimal tax , ripping us all off for billions.
We are now looking at why democracy cannot and does not work, Trump just is exposing it all , he's a genius!

floyd, Sat 03 Dec 2016 11:42

Remember all those mining tax ads on TV paid for by the miners and the minerals council of australia talking about loss of australian jobs? well, we didn't get the tax but we sure lost the jobs!!!

Lost jobs and lost tax but you have conservative politicians defending the indefensible status quo.

zenagain, Sat 03 Dec 2016 11:57

Sharkman, it's true about the LNG. What a rort in Australia.

Australian natural gas is a lot cheaper here in Japan than it is in Australia even after transporting it all that way.

I swear, I don't know how they get away with it.

tonybarber, Sat 03 Dec 2016 14:33

Working at Origin, it seemed that they had fixed contracts with Asian countries to hold then there was a moratorium of gas exploration in Aus. Thus creating a shortage of supply for Aus. Certainly does look like a rort but maybe not. Also, the pipeline infrastructure for Aus is a lot more extensive and expensive. A lot of Nsw gas comes from Moomba in SA /Qld border.

floyd, Sat 03 Dec 2016 16:05

Yeah and in other countries before the GOVERNMENT allows gas projects to proceed they ensure there are written guarantees in the contracts providing for domestic customers and at rate below the vagaries of international prices. Even good ole Uncle Sam does this .... but here in AU we don't do that coz its mining and we let them do what they like.

sharkman, Sat 03 Dec 2016 16:22

We have just had a huge mining boom , who actually profited? Who made the money , and where did all the profits go , as with the LNG , Australia is being ripped of by the miners and the Global Brands that abuse our tax system , so Google/Apple etc coupled with the no royalty LNG scam , what does this tell us about our Government and opposition?
We seem more consumed with peanuts from back packers and setting up building watchdogs , as politicians and the traditional party system of Labor/LNP have sold thie constituents down the river , while billions of dollars gets ripped of by THEM!

goofyfoot, Sat 03 Dec 2016 16:35

A few mates profited from the mining boom.

Cars, houses, loooong holidays, villas in indo....

Blowin, Sat 03 Dec 2016 19:54

I can say with absolute conviction , that even though I did profit from the mining boom, WA would have been a much better place if it had never occurred.

The energy majors dont just rape the place. They permanently changed the face and culture of the joint.

And the tax payer sees zero return , in fact it costs the taxpayer immensely through infrastructure construction costs for infrastructure that is constructed for the benefit of these corporations.

PS - What are the chances that it was a coincidence that when the major foreign players moved in ,the government ( both sides ), commenced their journey towards flooding the labour market USA style with immigration - both legal and illegal ?

floyd, Sat 03 Dec 2016 21:41

and all that's before an discussion on what the mining boom did to exchange rates that adversely impacted on all other aspects of the economy particularly manufacturing and tourism.

Blowin, Sun 04 Dec 2016 00:43

Not to mention the corporate culture that these scum brought with them from the states ( USA).

You've never experienced the true extent of Americanisation till you've existed within any proximity of these grasping fascists .

Control , subordination, utter subjugation and whichever other adjective works- they are stand over men as much as any criminal gangster.

Class segregation. Exclusivity of the rulers hand. Divide and conquer.

These cunts have been operating for longer than the federation of Australia.

They've seen the naïveté and the fluttering eyelids of our politicians in a dozen cycles of their own senate even before our grandparents were born. And the same in two dozen countries since.

We never stood a chance.

At least they didn't bomb us.

sypkan, Sun 04 Dec 2016 16:52

Maybe... just maybe ...trump is in this for the right reasons

His biggest critics are conceding his wisdom this week

Or sucking up ...because they've noticed their mounting irrelevance

sypkan, Sun 04 Dec 2016 17:31

And gotta agree, net gain mining boom = break even at best

Though I did hear stan grant the other day say it enabled a significant number of aboriginals into the middle class, aside from that, and a heap of jetskis for the culturally challenged, it's hard to see many enduring positives

Blowin, Sun 04 Dec 2016 18:06

If the newly minted middle class aboriginals bought jet skis with their money would we hang shit on them for being culturally challenged ?

Is sitting around a cafe drinking coffees and discussing sea changer real estate options more cultured than doing bog laps of the local waterway on your Yamaha ?

The bogans should be grateful now that they've been granted a reprieve from being the acceptable slagging target du jour for the "sophisticates".

Now it's all about the Angry White Man.

Bit of overlap in the subgroups though.

And if it was a venn diagram I'd probably be somewhere in the double up I'd say.

A quaint little insight into Australia's recent cultural past - a time before the aspirational rot set in :

consider the make up of the society in the background in that video to that which you'd see in Melbourne these days and ask yourself : despite her unfortunate choice of words , were Pauline Hanson's predictions from the mid nineties accurate ?

floyd, Sun 04 Dec 2016 19:49

Good article on how the trump suckers are about to lose their health cover

sypkan, Sun 04 Dec 2016 21:37

1) probably not publicly...privately yes... but no more or less shit than the dumb white guy

2) nope, same same, both deluded, but at least the bogan's smiling and doesn't care... for now...

3) she was spot on, unfortunate terminology, but sagelike foresight

Or just dumb luck

indo-dreaming, Tue 06 Dec 2016 07:28

I cant post the damn link...argggghhh

So cut and pasted below from SBS

Dick Smith to help Hanson's One Nation

Dick Smith, the multimillionaire who set up his own Australian-made food business, says he'll help advise Pauline Hanson and One Nation.
Source: AAP
6 DEC 2016 - 6:08 AM UPDATED 7 MINS AGO

Millionaire Dick Smith is offering to help Pauline Hanson as she prepares One Nation for an electoral assault on western Sydney.

Mr Smith, who set up his own company to produce Australian-made food products, will meet with Ms Hanson before Christmas, drawn to her immigration policies.

"I agree with her views on immigration numbers, that is about 70,000 a year, not 200,000. But I do not agree with her views on Muslim immigration," he told News Corp Australia

"While I wouldn't say I agreed with all of her policies, I am starting to see why she's going to have incredible support and how completely disappointed people are with the two major parties," he said.

But he ruled out financial support.

Meanwhile Ms Hanson confirmed One Nation would "definitely" be standing candidates in the next NSW and federal elections.

"I think there's a move on across the country for One Nation," she told News.

talkingturkey, Tue 06 Dec 2016 11:31

Maybe Dick can fill in Pauline's gaping hole when Rod has to pull out?

Fnar Fnar

sharkman, Tue 06 Dec 2016 12:38

So Americans are getting ready for Trump , and we see the rise of Pauline , now becoming one of Australia's most progressive political parties , Trump Tower vs the Fish and Chip empire , damn when those seppos find out about Pauline , we will be able to forge an alliance with the USA, which firmly rejects Climate change , immigration, Islam and gay marriage !
At least it's clear now to see the next few years , as the great right wing experiment!

floyd, Tue 06 Dec 2016 13:12

Dick Smith has long held views about sustainable population growth. That would be the only thing he would have in common with Hanson. I want Hanson to have candidates in every electorate come the next election so we will precisely see how little support she has outside the dumb-arse areas of Australia, hell will freeze over before she will enjoy widespread electoral support here.

See Tumblr at Trumpgrets where the poor suckers that voted for him are now voicing their regret.

blindboy, Tue 06 Dec 2016 13:23

As I suggested back there somewhere, some electoral college voters are refusing to vote for Trump. Nowhere near enough yet ...but you never know!

Blowin, Tue 06 Dec 2016 13:36

Which region are you Floyd ?

And don't you think that Australia's population size is enough of an issue to warrant a vote ?

PS - Don't look now but maybe the USA has got its balls back.....the appeasers will be devastated. .

Could one of the self appointed moral police tell me if it's racist to prefer our unelected overlords to be American rather than Chinese ?

floyd, Tue 06 Dec 2016 14:41

Blowin ........

I'm now back in Vicco.

Yes, sustainable population growth taking into account required (currently non-existent) protections for quality of life, public infrastructure requirements and importantly environment with the absence of racist overtones (Hanson) is my 3 decade long held view. Hanson is not that messenger, she peddles fear and ignorance.

Like Hanson, Trump is not that smart, he is everything that the words greedy, conman, fucktard can ever possibly mean.

Partially agree on your last point but I would express it in terms of having an independent foreign policy e.g. New Zealand. Further, I would ban foreign OWNERSHIP of land here, regardless of race, you can LEASE it for 99 years but never owe it, and the all too cute ways foreign nationals are able to buy citizenship here via student and investment programs, I'd end that too. But did you notice, Im not singling out Asians or Muslims or the next hated race or creed I'm saying all foreign rationals. You want to own land here then you are an Australian citizen.

Blowin, Tue 06 Dec 2016 15:17

Floyd - surely the debate on limiting immigration has moved beyond that point already.

With our country made up of 40 percent immigrants and one in every two people having at least one foreign born parent .....haven't we earnt the right to say enough immigration is enough without someone saying that we just don't want foreigners here ?

Of course many people don't want more foreigners here due to a variety of reasons, but the population size and immigration debate can be conducted as a wholey seperate issue without any conflation.

Some dont seem to think that's possible and like to fancy those that don't wish to see Australia overwhelmed by an unmitigated sea of humans as bigots.

Of course, these people are fucking idiots.

Sheepdog, Tue 06 Dec 2016 15:59

Sharkman writes "At least it's clear now to see the next few years , as the great right wing experiment!"

Dude, the "right wing experiment" has been in full swing ever since Reagan and Thatcher.... Bush seniors "new world order", GW Bushe's "you're either with us or against us", derivatives of the mid noughties, traditional left party's lurching so far to the right, they don't even look left...... My bet is on a major upheaval , a massive shift back to the left, the real left... Things move at supersonic speeds these days.. And the very first sign has just occured.... People will realize that "immigration" is not a traditional left/right battleground, with the left being unfairly labelled.... People are already starting to see through the charade... the right's "blame them" game is coming to an end, just like the boy who cried wolfowitz..

Far right decimated in Austrian election

blindboy, Tue 06 Dec 2016 16:29

Blowin, limiting immigration became a hard sell once people realised that it would also limit economic growth and the growth in value of their real estate. The hip pocket nerve!

tonybarber, Tue 06 Dec 2016 16:52

You need to note that immigration numbers have not fallen over the last few years, still about 190,000. The last year was the largest number of overseas students whilst the 457 numbers are decreasing. Highest 457 numbers were in 2012-13. Chinese and Indians are the largest migration numbers.

happyasS, Tue 06 Dec 2016 17:20

"....little allegiance to our society".

any chance of getting you to explain that blowin?

floyd, Tue 06 Dec 2016 17:30

@sheepdog, totally agree with your comments.
@BB, also agree, immigration is an economic policy. The major political parties and business love it as it locks in an increase in economic demand each year. on economic grounds its lazy policy.
@TB, factually correct but 2012-13 as you know was the height of the mining boom.
@blowin, can't agree that there is widespread support to stop immigration what Hanson is talking about isn't that, she is talking about something else all together.

udo, Tue 06 Dec 2016 17:41

Adani coal say no 457 visa workers...lets wait and see

theween, Tue 06 Dec 2016 19:05

Sad to stumble across the same old tired BS on this thread - can't you guys keep the deluded leftist ideology for 'what's what'? Sheepshagger takes the crown as the Top Cretin for his comment 'My bet is on a major upheaval , a massive shift back to the left, the real left..' Please take my bet of $1m against that happening anytime in our lifetimes.

happyasS, Tue 06 Dec 2016 19:32

i never really got the whole population = gdp = economic growth = living standards equation. we've been had to believe that there is a linear relationship between all of these.

do I have a better std of living than my old folks when they were my age? well if you count size of my house, size of my car, speed of my car, definition of my telly, softness of my bed......then yes.

but if you favour; access to holidays, health, time for fun, time with your kids.......then i am no better off really.

so how does this std of living stuff work again?

what if we had controlled depopulation, with controlled economic recession. gdp per capita stays the same. jobs are retained.

indo-dreaming, Tue 06 Dec 2016 19:50

I think you might be clutching at straws there Sheepdog, thinking there is a swing away from the right just because of one country's election results.

If you google the topic there is many many articles from the last few weeks saying the exact opposite especially for Europe.

While we still have the emergence and effects of globalisation i don't think it's a trend that's going to go away.

Recent political history:

Europe= Braxton

USA= Trump

Indonesia= Jokowi (very nationalistic PM, brought back death penalty, previous president SBY was for Indonesia the most left wing president ever)

Philipines= Duterte (again very nationalistic PM, obviously the slaughter of drug dealers etc, makes trump look sane )

I dont really follow much other countries (I'm sure there are more examples both ways)

I think it could easily happen is Australia if we had a half decent leader for a right wing party that wasn't to right wing, a nationalistic but not racist party.

I don't think One nation or Pauline can do it though, many of her policies are just too out there and cant be taken seriously and she is just not smart enough and useless at pubic speaking answering questions especially under pressure etc.

I just wish Dick Smith would have a go, id be out there handing out how to vote flyer's if he ran, he is just perfect candidate and i agree with pretty much everything he says.

talkingturkey, Tue 06 Dec 2016 19:55

Hmmm. Population control. No immigration 'ins'. Can't afford 'outs' (someone's gotta be here to do shit). Gotta have some kind of birth policy then as well. More or less? Whatever suits.

Sounds familiar...

Is there a country operating like that as we speak?


By the by, does Dick have his own brand of cheddar too? I think I've got a brand-name (and it ain't Coon)

sypkan, Tue 06 Dec 2016 20:09

GDP is a pathetic measure happyas, Clive Hamilton has written lots about it, a better measure is HDI (human development index) which shows much more, but falls apart when countries meet western style opulence, he uses it more as an example that we need a better measure, Bhutan has the happiness index

Steady state economy it's called happyas, greenish and smartypants types have been advocating it for years, the growth model is fucked for all sorts of reasons

What do you think of the religious rallies in indo indod?

Big numbers, big requests,

part of this right movement? A push for conservatism? Good ol racism? Or the push against the corruption clampdown as suggested?

Ya gotta love indo's though, literally hundreds of thousands of rightish , nuttyish religious crazies in the streets and very little trouble, a bunch of mellow cats

sharkman, Wed 07 Dec 2016 09:27

Sharkman writes "At least it's clear now to see the next few years , as the great right wing experiment!"

Dude, the "right wing experiment" has been in full swing ever since Reagan and Thatcher.... Bush seniors "new world order", GW Bushe's "you're either with us or against us", derivatives of the mid noughties, traditional left party's lurching so far to the right, they don't even look left...... My bet is on a major upheaval , a massive shift back to the left, the real left... Things move at supersonic speeds these days.. And the very first sign has just occured.... People will realize that "immigration" is not a traditional left/right battleground, with the left being unfairly labelled.... People are already starting to see through the charade... the right's "blame them" game is coming to an end, just like the boy who cried wolfowitz..

Far right decimated in Austrian election

The rise of the right and their nationalism , is contrary to globalization > the planet has been on globalization flurry for a decade , now being undone by Brexit/Trump/Hanson/Le Pen , who are presenting decades old models as a return to more local jobs and security , in a world that cannot turn back time , but where western civilizations , want more than they already have , for less!
How much damage can Trump/hanson /LNP etc do ? I think you are right in that there will be a big swing back to the left as the right cannot deliver on there more unskilled jobs , and there is a 4 year chance now to show how much bullshit is coming from the far right , bring it on , lets have a look at how their policies worked or didn't?

AndyM, Wed 07 Dec 2016 13:02

One of your more concise posts Turkey.

IMO ABC is pretty much finished as a respectable news source and it's a tragedy - possibly even a turning point in Australian culture.

No, Hanson is not the answer but she's potentially a conduit, as is evidenced by people like Dick Smith hitching a ride. The fact is, she's here and she "represents", so we might as well try to address the issues she's raising, even if from a different angle. Pragmatism.

For me, probably the most unsettling part of your post is the last paragraph - we're contestants all right, and I assume you chose that word as opposed to "participants" for very good reasons.

talkingturkey, Wed 07 Dec 2016 13:25

"Which country you referring to Turkey ?" Use your loaf, Blowie. It should then answer the second part too, comrade.

As for Hanson...fark, if she's the 'answer', what's the fucking question?? And that goes for Trumpy et al...

Actually, Trumpy is just a straight up con-man. Pauline actually believes some of her bollocks. Scratch a fingernail in depth below her veneer though and smell the bigoted stench of fear. Goes for her 'supporters' too. Well, the 'true believers' anyways. Is that you guys on here? Or is she just your 'blunt instrument' to smash, I dunno, something, man...anything. Smash it up. Yew!

Are we getting dumber as a nation or what? Or, at the very least, is that the master-plan? Case in point: What's been going on at the ABC since the new ex-Murdoch, ex-Google boss Michelle Guthrie has taken the reins.

First, she jettisons "Fact-check". Then she jettisons the ability to engage in online comments on The Drum news/opinion site. Then she jettisons transcripts on interviews on Radio National and elsewhere. Then she jettisons "Catalyst" and the science team behind it (with more pending?). Then starts to carve up Radio National and its content. Then she brings in a full Murdoch hack to help her in her total restructure master-plan for the entire ABC.

Sick! The great Aussie public (not us enlightened types on Swellnet, of course) can then get our corporate-sponsored 'news of the world' from Murdoch, Murdoch-lite ABC/SBS (merged), Channel Murdoch, free-to-air 9,7 & 10, or the brave new wacky 'post-truth' 'independent' world on Face-twitter! Info Wars! Breitbart! David muthafuckin' Icke! Loudest kunt wins!

The revolution will not be televised?! Comrades, we're gonna be (unwilling) contestants in the biggest 'reality show' of all! PLEBS, YOU'RE FIRED!

sypkan, Wed 07 Dec 2016 13:43

So turkeyman, what do you think about the democrats just voting back in pelosi and her team?

The woman is almost eighty and is surrounded by a team of almost octogenarians. They've pretty much run the democrat party into the ground, and they're all back in place

I read the average age of the republicans is like 50, and the average age for the democrats is above 65. The democrats have become the old rich white dude party.

They really have nothing new at all, preaching 1970s idealism to an internet world, even millennials aren't interested. Surely they need to shake up their leadership?

If trump doesn't fuck up majorly, they're commiting us to decades of republicans

sypkan, Wed 07 Dec 2016 15:24

I'm not fired up turkeyman, and I'm not even giving you shit

I mean the democrats are pushing an idealistic liberalism from the 1970s, because the party is a bunch of old fogeys, caught in an era, imposing their dreams from above

The democrats leadership are so old and tired they re making the party irrelevant

Genuinely interested in your opinion

talkingturkey, Wed 07 Dec 2016 15:24

"You obviously don't have anyone close to you that relies on their honest labours - blue or white collar - being rewarded with a living wage."

Fark, what a fucken looooong bow to draw... all in order to justify you and your fellow traveller's dumb-ass bigotry?

In fact, it's a fucken load of shit. And farcical.

How's this? I know a boat-load of people "close to me that rely on their honest labours - blue or white collar - being rewarded with a living wage." Family, friends, colleagues, the head in my mirror.

The people I know that admit they voted for Hanson? A small business owner that voted PUP last time. A well-to-do retired couple that hate Turnbull more than they hate Labor. A coupla South African ex-pats with very successful businesses. The best one: A grubby subbie that does cashies and supplements this income, erm, even more dishonestly. Actually that is his income. And he's from the Sunny coast. Figures.

Oh yeah, I can chuck you in the mix too.

Anecdotal, perhaps, but you get that.

As for still not getting it, Blowie?

What? Like Trump's 'working class' voters. Like John Howard's 'battlers'. Like Tony's 'tradies', ya mean?

Yep, I really don't get the turkeys that vote for Thanksgiving. Do you?

And Insippo, what does "preaching 1970s idealism to an internet world" even mean? And how's Trump's "draining the swamp" going again? You fired (up) yet? Buyer's remorse?

talkingturkey, Wed 07 Dec 2016 15:43

I'll have to have a news trawl about this. Sounds like the dying gasp of the Corporate Democrats going by your precis. Well...

Dunno about that 70s idealistic liberalism schtick though. What, like general equity issues? Jettison the 70s neo-liberalism by all means...

Fark, when it comes to destructive 'back to the future' shite, some of the 'alt-right' crap is scary. Kids don't know shit? Yay! Nazi memes for the yucks. ROFLOL...woeful

Sheepdog, Wed 07 Dec 2016 19:10

Speaking of ween, get off the fucktard juice, buddy..... As I just supplied a link to a crushing right wing defeat in Austria, , as the right go from one self administered wound to the next here in Oz, BARELY winning the election and now taking us into reccession territory , as people make out that the 4% vote for hanson is the new order, as Trump lost the popular vote and relied on a gerrymander, as Keys scuttles off before the skeletons come out, as the media paint this "alt right" future majority when really all they are is the loudest minority, perhaps you need to seek some form of help in regards to your dellusions.

Blowin...... Riddle me this...... He had a epileptic fit in the first week of May........
Who is he?

indo-dreaming, Wed 07 Dec 2016 20:09

@ Sypkan

I haven't been following it to much just skimming over it in the Indonesian news i follow, it just seems the full on muslims over reacting just trying to stir up shit.

I think some other things don't help, like Ahok is Chinese Indonesian, Chinese Indonesians in general are not that well liked by the majority of Indonesians, as although they make up a very small percentage of the population they own a massive amount of Indonesian business etc, hence a lot of jealousy and resentment among many Indonesians to them, hence why when there was the 90's riots they were targeted.

Obviously with the muslim majority in Indonesia Christians are also not always liked, kind of in the same way many in Australia don't like muslims, but obviously just like Australia i think the majority are fairly tolerant it's just the minority that is so vocal.

Add to that there is former president SBY and his son who wants to be mayor of Jakarta stirring things up behind the scenes.

There is also a certain demographic that don't think Jokowi is muslim enough or something silly, there has even been times where has been accused of being a closet Christian

Add to that i think there is still many who didn't like the fact Jokowi won, and are still bitter Prabowo lost he was much more pro muslim.

Hopefully they see this mornings earthquake and deaths in Aceh as a sign Allah is not happy with their actions, but i doubt it.

sypkan, Thu 08 Dec 2016 00:42

Yeh, seems to be a bit of 'all of the above'

Indonesian politics is so confusing, megawati's sister or something got arrested at one protest, then I heard SBY's son is having a go at mayor, as you said. Then, apparently, that the protests are a backlash to the anti corruption stuff of jokowi and ahok. Reporters were saying protestors were paid something like Rp 500k to turn up. That's a lot of money for a day wage! And, that's a lot of money to pay to protect your little corruption scams!

So hard to understand who could be paying such huge amounts of money? I'm guessing most were there by free will but it wouldn't surprise me if some were paid. Then again you hear this about there being paid protestors in every protest in Indonesia. Maybe it's one of those furphys that seem to be regularly put out by establishment types to undermine public protests?

Indonesia is incredibly complex when you scratch the surface, their politics seems un-understandable for outsiders

One thing I know is, Ahok and Jokowi are fucken gutsy, that's for sure

indo-dreaming, Thu 08 Dec 2016 08:31

"Indonesia is incredibly complex when you scratch the surface, their politics seems un-understandable for outsiders"

Yeah exactly.

talkingturkey, Thu 08 Dec 2016 12:01

Actually, scratch all that, Blowie. Whatevers, buddy. Keep on truckin'. No, surfin'!

indo-dreaming, Thu 08 Dec 2016 12:48

High immigration is a problem not because of who the immigrants are it's irrelevant what race or religion they are, it's a problem because of all the issues that it causes.

We only have high immigration rates because it's the easy way out to keep the economy ticking over through growth.

The problems though are many and include.

Environmental = More people means more land for housing and to provide for these people, disposal of waste pollution and much more water and energy is needed and we already have water shortages as it is.

Public infrastructure= More people means we need more public infrastructure but it rarely keeps up, schools, hospitals, public transport, roads, non of these things in my life time have got better even when they keep adding more lanes to freeways say going into the City, but it seems it doesn't matter how many lanes they add it's now worse than ever with congestion.

Quality of life: Apart from the points above, more people effects how we live, more people generally equals higher crime rates, more rules and lack of freedom etc.

The numbers are just not sustainable we are quickly losing many of the reason we are known as the lucky country, and high immigration rates are a big reason why.

AndyM, Thu 08 Dec 2016 13:02

What's your solution Turkey?

You're full of mud-slinging and pay outs but you never give a straight opinion or alternative.

talkingturkey, Thu 08 Dec 2016 14:25

Oh dear. Give 'em enough rope...

talkingturkey, Thu 08 Dec 2016 14:42

And Andy M, here's a no-brainer just for starters. INVEST IN EDUCATION. AT ALL LEVELS. Pre-Primary. Primary. Secondary. GONSKI! Vocational. Tertiary. This country is STILL playing catch-up from the pork-barrelling profligacy of the miss-spent Howard years.

And we're getting worse under this current iteration.

And while the LNP roll out TURCs and re-introduce ABCCs (with Hanson's help), ask yourselves which sites in WA, mining especially, have the most dodgy 457s, and which ones have the least? And what role a strong union presence plays in that fact.

Politically, WA is a basket-case. Hanson ain't an answer. Maybe Rod????? Ha ha Blurk!

And let's not get started on fucking human-induced climate change...

talkingturkey, Thu 08 Dec 2016 17:28

Sorry, I respectfully call bullshit right there. And yes, I've got skin in the game. All sorts. From all sorts of sources.

And as for your 'concept' of you as a representative One Nation voter. Which delusional bit you mean? The 'bio' bit? Who are you? Who, who, who, who? And no, please don't write another post like THAT infamous one (you 'high IQ', 'child star', pot grooming, braille-reading wastrel, you...what was bullshit again?). Or start, God forbid, to attach certificates and the like (didn't someone else go down that path on here before?) Why would you even mention these things? What happened?

Or is there a vanguard of free-thinking, high IQ, but humble with it, voters and supporters of One Nation? The 'silent minority' within the 'silent majority'??

Maybe you should join One Nation? Exponentialise their collective IQ straight off the bat. Or start your own thing. You knocked up/found a manifesto in 5 minutes, remember? Lotta time on your hands. No mortgage. I think I mentioned the Posse Comitatus to you before. Australia's ripe.

Just come clean on the racism-sy stuff, maaaate. Trump exploited it. The base fear. As does Hanson. Though she's more of a 'true believer' than that old con-man. Maybe she isn't. Hardened and cynical now. Jail-time will do that to ya. Now where's me scapegoats?

Oh, and let's not forget she's got Malcolm Roberts with his ex-coal miner/executive head full of US tea-party shite.

Blowie, you know there's more to 'globalisation' than immigration. And I do mean YOU know. I assume you do. Some of us have been fighting the good fight on this and neo-liberal economics and politics for 20 + years in various ways. 'Multiculturalism' and 'national identity'(whatever that is defined by who?) in the same sentence, let alone railing about 'Chinese' and 'muslims' (pin down those two multifarious types if you will!), is all a bit whiffy. Especially when Pauline's just glommed on to it this time round. Remember when it was 'Asians' (now there's a wide remit) and 'abos' her first time round. Japanese buying the Goldie? South-East Asians (much more narrow there...not!) heroinising the Western suburbs?

Sheesh. The 'mass immigration debate' glory daze.

Was this all part of Howard's plan to weaken labour and Labor back from 96 onwards? Jangle the shiny keys (with the dog-whistle key-ring) of 'illegal boat-people' making everyone look that-a-way, whilst turning a blind eye on the various visa rorts? Nothin' to see here? Yes! As surely as work-choices and his failed sub-Thatcher MUA destruction. Have labour and Labor been fighting a rear-guard battle against all this ever since? Yes! And is Hanson NOW the answer to our neo-liberal 'globalisation' woes? NO!

The difference between us and the UK, especially in the same period as Howard's reign, even though it was a Labour government in name, was that there was no strong union movement left after the Thatcher decade to command or combat this 'third way' bollocks (you may have to google 'third way' neo-liberalism post-Thatcher and Reagan fucked up Labour in the UK and the Democrats in the US till now!)

Unions - organised labour - have kept those excesses from being replicated here. It might seem counter-intuitive but Hanson supporting the ABCC (which is nothing but a crude ideological 'blunt instrument', as crude and blunt as the TURC) helps the neo-liberal 'globalisation' project as surely as trickle-down corporate tax cuts do. As does her new climate-change denial nonsense. Coal is good. Adani and billions propping it up are good? For 1500 new jobs?? For who???

Labor here can learn from Sanders and Corbyn...or perish. I think they are learning. Hanson's is a road to nowhere.

I'm defo not 20 or 30 anymore. Realpolitik is the name of the organised, institutional political game. My own ideological battles are now real and happening and outside organised party politics. No details but they will have very real consequences for my particular sphere of work and thus Australia as a whole either way things turn out.

No names, no pack-drill.

And da fun don't done...

talkingturkey, Thu 08 Dec 2016 17:51

"Mass immigration is the alternative to the implementation of work choices. Not a real fan of either, but personally at least work choices didn't push real estate prices beyond the average Australian , clog up and push beyond capacity the nation's infrastructure including health system or destroy any pleasantry that might have once existed a those quiet places now overrun with people."

Stop it, Blowie, it's getting embarrassing. These are your binary visions of Australia? And Pauline is the solution?? Faaaaark, maaaaate.

Maybe you need to google some more.

"...straight away conflating a desire to halt excessive immigration that is leading to the decimation of Australia's living standards with halting immigration due to bigotry."

The decimation of Australia's living standards?? Decimation?? Melodrama alert! And this 'decimation' is due to "excessive immigration"...wholly? Most importantly? That's it??

"Mate, we've been through this very recently, but I'll say it again - both exist, yet both can exist independently of the other."

But not with you and your previous form on here. Your 'multicultural' this, and your 'national identity' that, and 'muslims' and 'Chinese' and, and, and...THEM!

Fuck mate, just 'fess yourself.

Those anecdotal Hanson supporters I mentioned before...the real Hanson supporters, not fictional 'working-class' types, not the fictional 'battlers', and supposed Trump 'working poor' (google who they all really are...or I'll save you the time: the petty, under-educated/over-mortgaged, 'aspirational', downward envying, downward punching, coward punching, 'struggling' middle class stratum)...yes, those happy Hansonites are ALL of the "I'm not racist, but..." brigade. Actually, the Saffas and the retirees and the grubby subbie are straight up racist and proud. Even accounting for the childish "look-at-me" shock value. A few beers lets loose the others. A fair few more, and some bourbon, then unleashes the psychological on-the-couch mummy/daddy issues, schoolyard bullying, the "I'm so lonely, no-one understands what's going on in MY life" melodrama for all of 'em.

Usually the racist crap is just a foil, a crutch, a way of coping in the end. "What about me? It isn't fair! I've had enough and I want my share..."

Is this what happens when we've all laboured under this "no such thing as society" bullshit for too long?

Fucken hell. I wonder what it is for Pauline? Or you?

Sheepdog, Thu 08 Dec 2016 18:21

Well, Blowin... It's good that you are actually voicing your opinion, which is a big change from your pathetic hypothetical scenario questions that you are known for.... Ridiculous questions like these blowin classics;

"Would you consider it an acceptable thread of free speech if I was to stand on your lawn and yell at passers by that we should storm your house and murder every one inside ?"

"Why no analogies ? Pretty apt don't you think ?"

"You ever been overseas Sheepy ?"

"Craig - I must have missed something.....
How do you know they're referring to sinking pacific islands and not the casual island life up North that I thought they were talking about ?"

"The whole Man up....No Balls ...what's that about ?"

False naivety....... I'm glad you left it all behind...... There's thousands more, but I really couldn't be bothered cutting and pasting anymore..... Reading that much of blowins fake questions has left me slightly ill.... I find the new up front stuff far more refreshing.

Now, in regards to pointing the finger at Turk or me or anyone about riddles and cryptic meanings, give it a rest..... Here's one of your many classics;
"Then you get the muppets swallowing the whole "Racism is the new paedophilia " social engineeringx propoganda handed down by the same overlords that they purport to despise."


Sheepdog, Thu 08 Dec 2016 23:00

Blowin... More of your posts...;





They were amassssiiiing......

Dude, don't blame the substances..... What a pissant excuse...
Btw, I didn't have to troll far..... Every fuckn thread is littered with your classics... But you know, if you want to go all "victim" or passive aggressive, knock yourself out... Fact is bro, you threw my name in to one of your rants at turk, for no real reason, when you know I'm as up front with you as can be..... Riddles my arse.....

Oh btw, the answer was Turnbull....... Epileptic fit - having a "turn"..... First month of may - falls in taurus - Taurus the bull...... Turn - Bull.....

Lift ya game dude..... lol

AndyM, Fri 09 Dec 2016 00:45

Turkey thanks for your reply and yes, education is indeed a no-brainer. Along with healthcare and infrastructure investment, it's something that is obviously crucial to the country but the LNP are happy to gut them in the most cynical and brutal way.

Along with the public broadcaster of course.

But the recent conversation on this thread has been about a sustainable population and an Australia that can still be seen as somewhat natural and beautiful and not endless sprawling suburbs housing 50 million people.

You continue to equate any talk of a sustainable population with racism - I asked you for a solution to ponzi-scheme immigration and you gave me "education".

As crucial as education is, I reckon for a liveable future Australia we're going to have to do better than that, don't you?

I'm no One Nation fan but I'm old enough to understand when to be pragmatic.

talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 14:59

Well Andy, I don't know if I "equate ANY talk of a sustainable population with racism" [my emphasis]. We are talking about Hanson, yes? And the thin veil thrown up by the likes of Blowie in regards to immigration and now its impacts on workers, and specifically the various visa rorts and how they have been and are encouraged and exploited, politically by the LNP, no? The thin veil that is pretty much opaque.

In that real regard, real education investment negates this real need for skilled foreign labour. STEM, VET, apprenticeships etc. And as you rightly say, the LNP, has gutted and continues to gut this investment in the "most cynical and brutal way". I'd add "purposeful" too.

It's a bugger these days that adding links to anything is hit n miss on here, but I'm sure if you trawl around you'll see sustainable development and population positions and discussions from political parties at all levels, NGOs, the UN etc etc. The same for urban planning and development, infrastructure etc.

Compare and contrast.

BUT engaging with this kind of stuff, seriously?

"It's de rigueur these days to voice an opposition to racism.....even though, most would vomit at the thought of living amongst a truly foreign society in any meaningful fashion for an extended period.

Life in a a provincial Indian town , replete with sanctioned rapes and slut stoning carried out by a dozen village elders "

Great segue-way there, by the way. So much wrong with all that. Equating raising any concerns about racism with mere fashion? Howzabout living in a "truly foreign society in any meaningful fashion for an extended period" in say, Alice Springs - Utopia! - to get your vomit on? Just don't mention the R word...the injuns are coming (Hindus? Christians? Muslims? Sikhs? Buddhists? North? South? East? West? Bollywood???)

And because a small number of fellow Australians support Hanson and come out with stuff like that, now's the time for a 'reasonable' debate??

You may call it pragmatism, probably Dick Smith does too. It's reminiscent of the 'debate' on here that sprang up round the time of the Don Dale incident. It descended into 'reasonable' discussions about Aboriginality and funding and 18 friggin' C, and not the horrors perpetrated and witnessed?!

And faced with blatantly racist bullshit, it's time for a 'reasonable' debate about population control and immigration and 'multiculturalism' and 'muslims'? All in aid of the 'workers'?

(Whilst Pauline supports the ABCC?! Now THAT is truly vomitous!)

Blowin, Fri 09 Dec 2016 17:04

Fuck you carry on Turkey.

Two seperate issues.

Can be interrelated .

Often aren't.

Can you discuss immigration and population control without mentioning racism.

If not, you're a fucking moron.

PS you really need to work on your delivery, I still can't understand your point eighty percent of the time .

PPS For better or worse , you've obviously never been a worker. Not in the modern incarnation that sees jobs preferences to foreigners. So maybe reserve your judgement on the thinking of those that have until you've got a bit of insight into their situation.

Not racist to be entitled to preferential treatment in the society you are a part of.

talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 17:25

"Can you discuss immigration and population control without leaking racism.

If not, you're a fucking moron."

There fixed your rhetorical for ya. I'm a fixer.

talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 18:06

And you are, to quote your big IQ-ed self, a fucking moron.

Do you know what a fluffer is? Quick, google.

Who's fluffin' who?

What's ballooning mean? Is that in Roger's Profanisaurus?

talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 18:25

Fuck...stop it. You're killing me!

First it's the self-proclaimed IQ malarkey, and now you're the "main player" that I'm "massaging"?!

Whoah! Easy, big fella!

As for "unambiguous opinion" about Hanson and her ilk? Erm, not coming through loud n clear enough for ya? You need a "please explain"?

Sheesh! You're not on the turps again, are ya?

talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 18:26

Straight from Pauline's mouth (piece):

"One Nation believes that immigration should be open for debate and a population policy in place. Australians have the right to a cohesive society and deny immigration to anyone who does not abide by our law, culture, democracy, flag or Christian way of life. Australians have been tolerant and welcome new migrants coming to find a new homeland. We don’t want or need migrants bringing their problems, laws, culture and opposing religious beliefs on us."


talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 18:39

Actually, before discussing that, can someone "please explain" this?

"the new concept ( since the mid nineties ) of racism being the most heinous crime one can be accused of , on par with paedophilia , was introduced by the same people that wish to divide and conquer the unity of the Australian labour movement through multiculturalism.

That being the Neo liberals.

These protagonists are responsible for the depreciation of labour costs via flooding the market with foreign labour and they introduced this concept as a way to silence the voice of dissent .

Unfortunately, traditional opponents of the Neo liberals swallowed the entire " dire race relations" subtext and lept to the defence of an unvictimised wave of immigrants into Australia and embarked on a crusade of unfounded ,and ultimately self destructive , identity politics warfare that alienated the core base of their supporters.

That being the workers."

talkingturkey, Fri 09 Dec 2016 19:46

Yes, yes, I think I've got it. I think I can tie both things together here...

Pauline and One Nation are racists AND paedophiles! Got it!



Blowin, Fri 09 Dec 2016 19:51

Yeah mate, well done.

Blowin, Sat 10 Dec 2016 18:38


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Blowin, Sat 10 Dec 2016 19:01

A : A bucket

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sypkan, Sun 11 Dec 2016 08:24

all this talk of skin in tbe game...or not...I couldn't overlook this

the intellectual yet idiot

But the problem is the one-eyed following the blind: these self-described members of the “intelligentsia” can’t find a coconut in Coconut Island, meaning they aren’t intelligent enough to define intelligence hence fall into circularities — but their main skill is capacity to pass exams written by people like them. With psychology papers replicating less than 40%, dietary advice reversing after 30 years of fatphobia, macroeconomic analysis working worse than astrology, the appointment of Bernanke who was less than clueless of the risks, and pharmaceutical trials replicating at best only 1/3 of the time, people are perfectly entitled to rely on their own ancestral instinct and listen to their grandmothers (or Montaigne and such filtered classical knowledge) with a better track record than these policymaking goons.

sypkan, Sun 11 Dec 2016 08:28

"He thinks people should act according to their best interests and he knows their interests, particularly if they are “red necks” or English non-crisp-vowel class who voted for Brexit. When plebeians do something that makes sense to them, but not to him, the IYI uses the term “uneducated”. What we generally call participation in the political process, he calls by two distinct designations: “democracy” when it fits the IYI, and “populism” when the plebeians dare voting in a way that contradicts his preferences"

blindboy, Sun 11 Dec 2016 19:57

The main game with Trump becomes clearer by the day. The Russian influence has been significant. They help him into power and he removes the sanctions that are hitting their elite so hard and restricting their capacity to fund further military adventures. Watch, over the next few months, as Russia continues its destabilisation and invasion of parts of the old USSR. The decay of the US has been a concern for at least a decade but no-one could have anticipated that their political system would be so easily manipulated by a foreign power!

happyasS, Sun 11 Dec 2016 20:18

the only "interests" trump is concerned with are his own

remove [] around [s]crewing for a working link[s]crewing-you-over.html

blindboy, Sun 11 Dec 2016 20:43

......or this.

floyd, Sun 11 Dec 2016 22:09

.... and the parasite isn't even president yet. all this can only ever end badly just like our little divided nation experience.

tonybarber, Mon 12 Dec 2016 10:52

There seems to be a contradiction here. Firstly, we don't direct evidence of Russian hacking, although the hackers have been 'identified' but not made public. Not being in the US, I assume it is fair to say that releasing Hillarys emails would be embarrassing for here, probably for the simple fact that she was dumb enough to use her own server. The paradox is that Wikileaks publicised the leaked emails - Wikileaks !! Why would Wikileaks do this.
If, as the report stated, the Russians have something on the republicans then what is it. Would it be enough to impeach Trump.
All seems highly speculative and conjecture. I think this 'interference' needs to be spelt out.

blindboy, Mon 12 Dec 2016 11:24

Why would wikileaks do this .......Assange has a long standing grudge against Hilary Clinton.

talkingturkey, Mon 12 Dec 2016 11:44

Ooooooweeee! It's all happening! Blowie's self-redactions/assessments, and a last gasp bit of that Taleb dude again (First Tim Foilhat, David H. Koch, then Manbatty-boy, now InSippo), and that's just in Swellnet world! In that other 'reality show' Trump's con-man march continues...and now the CIA and Russia and Julian. Sheesh! Who's writing this script?! Where's my Monsanto-drenched popcorn?

talkingturkey, Mon 12 Dec 2016 14:36


sypkan, Mon 12 Dec 2016 17:50

you don't get it turkeyman..

it's not that trump is's just that the alternative was so fucking woefully bad

evidenced by the fact that none of you clinton clan have bothered to answer questions or defend her

come on someone, tell us why clinton would've been better

I dare you!

talkingturkey, Mon 12 Dec 2016 19:48

There is no Clinton clan on here. There never was. I'd venture there is no-one on here that voted in the US election, let alone was eligible to.

Having said that, there's plenty of Trump-proselytizers?! Or rather, there WERE...Where they go? Fun's done as the inevitable 'real' Trump bares his con-man arse to his 'supporters' and the world??

Trump is a joke, and/or a horror show. End of Empire and/or End of Days? Oooweeee! Stay tuned...

As Australians, what can be gleaned from our US (and UK) english-speaking counterparts? What stuff will be learned (good and/or bad)?

(Also, just because we kinda speak the same lingo, don't over-conflate the experiences here and population size, voting arrangements etc etc)

blindboy, Mon 12 Dec 2016 20:57

sypkan the reasons for preferring Clinton are self-evident. Political stability. Adequate governance. Greater economic stability. Lower risk of nuclear war. Less risk of aggressive action by Russia. Should I go on or will that do for the moment. Note that preferring Clinton does not equal unqualified support for her policies. I mean, modern versions of Nixon and Reagan would be preferable to Trump. It would be a close call between Trump and Kim Jong-un. That's how bad he is.

AndyM, Mon 12 Dec 2016 22:04

Turkey so after all this chat you never did tell us of your preference for Australia's future. A sustainable population? Unlimited immigration?

tonybarber, Tue 13 Dec 2016 10:00

Out of interest, what is a sustainable population. Let's say for Aus. Now, just think what the Club of Rome thought a few years back and see if their predictions came up.

floyd, Tue 13 Dec 2016 10:33

When people use the words sustainable population I immediately think environment first but I'm sure that's atypical.

floyd, Tue 13 Dec 2016 10:38

Love this Instagram account


floyd, Tue 13 Dec 2016 10:40

or this


sharkman, Tue 13 Dec 2016 10:59

assange got his wikileaks from the Russians and has already petitioned Trump , about not being extradited to the USA.
I find it rather amusing that Trump now has a mandate to execute his policies , with control of the congress and Senate , and Australia is now just stuck in nowhere land with no clear mandate anywhere !

Australia will aimlessly flail around not doing much of anything , at least the seppos can and are doing something , even if you don't like it!

talkingturkey, Tue 13 Dec 2016 11:31

Want to really get your 'conspiracy' on? Chuck "Trump", "Putin", "Rex Tillerson", "ExxonMobil" and "Rosneft" into your search engine of choice.


talkingturkey, Tue 13 Dec 2016 11:45

"Turkey so after all this chat you never did tell us of your preference for Australia's future. A sustainable population? Unlimited immigration?"

AndyM, they're the two choices, huh? Where? In the real world or on here? And what do those two terms even mean?

Actually, I choose a)*. Whatever. Done. Like 18C, this 'debate' needs no oxygen really. What's Bob Katter and Andrew Wilkie up to these days (remember them)?

*b) means what again? maybe that's a go-er. Dunno. It ain't keeping me up at night.

Is there a thread you can take it to? "Unlimited immigration vs Sustainable Population" (definitions pending)...

sypkan, Tue 13 Dec 2016 14:45

is there any question that will be answerred with an answer rather than a question from the turkeyman?

you're harder to get answers out of than tonybarber....and that's saying something!!

at least you engage in the question I guess, rather than blatantly ignoring it, ...but geez...up there with tonybarber...inhabiting some lofty grounds there

Blowin, Tue 13 Dec 2016 15:07

The question of whether we should grow the population at the equivalent of a new Canberra each year isn't relevant .......

Like 18c ?

The debate isn't worth giving oxygen to ?

Back to guessing the possible intentions of the nominal head of a country 8000 kms away then.....

Because he's a bad, bad man.

The worst !

The fact that a man such as Xi Jinping runs the most populous country in the world and is an aggressive expansionist that is stoking the fires of Chinas supremacy daily probably isn't worth a mention .

Back to what Trump MIGHT do to destabilise the world.


talkingturkey, Tue 13 Dec 2016 15:26

InSippo, all hail the straw-men!

(Pssst, you're on the wrong thread, Blowie. This one's called TRUMP. Gonna self-redact again, comrade? All together now, "I like Chinese...I like Chinese...They only come up to your knees...They're cute and they're cuddly and they’re ready to please...)

tonybarber, Tue 13 Dec 2016 16:35

Sypkan - Question is ??
Must have missed it in all the .....
No, the question is - what is deemed to be a sustainable immigration?

AndyM, Tue 13 Dec 2016 18:16

So lame Turkey.

I give you two possible starting points out of god knows how many and you decide on a pubescent answer like that?

Seriously, what would you prefer to see happen in Australia's future?

Why don't you actually constructively contribute to some of these threads instead of continuing to shit in your hand and throw it at people (who at least aren't afraid to voice their beliefs).

talkingturkey, Tue 13 Dec 2016 19:19

FFS. You've read/heard of "framing debates", yeah, Andy M? Lakoff?

He devotes a chapter in his book The Political Mind to the subject of framing:

In it, he asserts that: …”we think in terms of frames and metaphors that fit our worldviews, and language can be chosen to activate frames, metaphors and worldviews.” He goes onto say: “Framing is not just a matter of slogans. It is a mode of thought, a mode of action, a sign of character. It is not just words, though words do have to be said over and over again.”

He warns that if you accept the opponent’s frame, you are trapped.

Forget the ape-shit, do some thinking. Don't be afraid.

You've been framed (by Hanson no less!) Pubescent enough for ya?

talkingturkey, Tue 13 Dec 2016 19:26

As for "Seriously, what would you prefer to see happen in Australia's future?"

I don't see Hanson, Dick Smith and dumb-ass notions of 'sustainable immigration' (emphasis on dumb-ass) as THE reason to support a political party.

I would prefer to see Murdoch die soon though. Literally and figuratively.

Blowin, Tue 13 Dec 2016 19:38

And I thought Occy was the worst dancer in the surfing community.....

"In it, he asserts that: …”we think in terms of frames and metaphors that fit our worldviews, and language can be chosen to activate frames, metaphors and worldviews.” He goes onto say: “Framing is not just a matter of slogans. It is a mode of thought, a mode of action, a sign of character. It is not just words, though words do have to be said over and over again.”"

I wish I knew how to add that to your David Lynch quote.

Even you've got to laugh at that Turkey.

PS Here's a shocking piece of intell just come to light : Language can also be used to answer direct questions.... directly !

Who'd have thought ?

Maybe it's further into your book on strategic political debating and you just haven't gotten to that page yet.

Blowin, Tue 13 Dec 2016 19:39

Though words do have to be said over and over again.....

GUFFAW !!!!!!!

talkingturkey, Tue 13 Dec 2016 19:42

Is that another self-redaction?

Anyway, back to the thread...

Blowin, Tue 13 Dec 2016 19:56

Yeah, back to it.....

Let's see you dance around the issue for another ten pages.

Here's a bit of music to help you get back in your " unique " rhythm.

AndyM, Tue 13 Dec 2016 20:03

Turkey who said I support One Nation?

You're all over the place.

I ask the simplest of questions and you continue to be too clever by half.

When are you going to state your convictions - do you actually have any?

Blowin, Tue 13 Dec 2016 20:27

I heard Turkey was caught in flagrante delictico at the Geelong football oval male public toilet.

His conviction was receiving swollen goods.

AndyM, Tue 13 Dec 2016 20:50

Ok Turkey, I'll go first.

I'm a long-time Greens voter.

I love the physical environment in Australia - all its coasts, the mountains, the interior.

I love deserted and undeveloped beaches as well as mountains. This includes clean air, clean water, cheap camping, good fishing and preferably uncrowded surf.

This is just Like "Perfect Match", isn't it Turkey?

Increasing population has been an obvious issue to me for decades - one minute there's 12 million people, next minute there's 24 million. Who's benefitting? Who's calling the shots? Who's losing out? What does the future hold?

Politicians haven't touched the population issue with a barge pole, so if Hanson actually brings the issue to the table why wouldn't you at least be part of the discussion and at least try to steer it towards a suitable tone, which for me is an environmental and economic slant. To reject the whole issue because of Hanson makes zero sense.

Of course there is no "answer" to the issues but a conversation is long overdue.

Personally, I'd like to see replacement-level immigration, at least until this country can get its shit together with regards to infrastructure/transport, water usage etc.

A large chunk of those immigrants would be refugees, and you might be surprised to hear that if they had brown or black skin, I'd be completely ok with that.

blindboy, Tue 13 Dec 2016 21:53

This will sound like a eulogy when Trump finally dies. HST doing what he did best.

AndyM, Tue 13 Dec 2016 22:03

Trump's the best thing to happen to world politics for a long time.

indo-dreaming, Tue 13 Dec 2016 22:13

Well said Andy on both post totally agree.

And although i do think we should reduced immigration I think this is good news

I think it sucks that we have a high populations of certain groups of people from countries far away, but generally low population of intake from our neighbouring countries(other than NZ).

Id love to see priority given to our neighbours like Pacific island region, PNG, and off course Indonesia.

AndyM, Tue 13 Dec 2016 22:29

Good point I.D., we're close to N.Z. and maybe Fiji but we seem to have bugger all to do with some of our neighbours. Would be nice to counter that.

As for Trump, I think that the whole thing's an unbelievable train wreck but if that's what it takes to shine a light on the U.S. and all its lies, smoke and mirrors, then so be it.
Would be hilarious to see that a foreign nation has subverted an American election. Check this out below.'s_100_years_of_overthrow

And you can add a good few since this article was written.

Blowin, Tue 13 Dec 2016 22:50

Unreal, we'd get to subsidise the farm hands for the other 320 days a year they're not picking fruit as well.

Medicare, dole, pension. ...we will fork out no worries.

Anything as long as the farmers don't have to pay a living wage to their employees.

And when even the report that puts forward the suggestion that their may be a "small" reduction in wage rates, well good luck waiting to find out how low they will plummet.

Lowey institute eh?

Such benevolent people, only looking out for our poor neighbors, no vested interests involved !

Stage 2 of the Oceanic version of the EU.

Selling out Australia's future to support other nations.

At least it would prove a foil to China's orchestrations towards the region.

And of course it'll be a reciprocal arrangement whereby Australians can buy freehold land anywhere in the Pacific right ?

Ummmm, that would be a no.

sypkan, Wed 14 Dec 2016 01:25

no particular question tonybarber, well not atm anyway, just your history, floyd, myself and many others have asked perfectly reasonable questions and you just seem to disappear for a few days

yep, good posts andym, nice to see someone willing to put it all out there. to be fair to turkeyman these concepts are kinda slippery, and tend to get steamrolled and exploited by agendas. while I wholeheartedly agree with andym I often think of Australia's east whole east coast as comparable to the whole Indonesian archipelago. from this perspective the east coast could accommodate a similar population, sustain, or support for a small period of time is the question.

having said that, the best thing about oz is how pristine parts of the environment are. surely that's something worth protecting in an over developed world?

gotta agree indod, the travesty of the current globalisation experiment is a country like oz doesn't prioritize it's immediate poor neighbours. indos have been ripped off big time as we accept wealthy migrants from across the globe.

and this is the whole problem with globalisation. it's been a model based on a free for all for the wealthy. and free movement for the already relatively wealthy.

the open borders zealots jumped in bed with the free market zealots, as they both got a version of what they wanted.

the clinton hacking exposed her fantasy of an open borders world, running on green energy etc.etc. I share that dream too,....well I did in 1996. 20 years on that experiment hasn't worked out so well and is in dire need of reassessment. unfortunately ideology isn't facilitating this reassessment as the zealots bunker down behind their ideologies. obtuse to new developments and information

borders are a drag, and totally unfair, but so is reality

I won't single anyone out, but clearly there are open borders enthusiasts on here. I'd love if one, or some, would explain their enthusiasm. is it a moral thing? is it influenced by travel and/or overseas family and friends? or just a bit of idealism?

nothing wrong with any of those, but it really puzzles me why they're so enthused, yet totally unwilling to discuss such things

if one does raise such things, they become all weird, angry and uncommunicative, a bit like I used to be about certain issues, until I grew up a bit, and realised we've all got our own ideals, or no ideals at all, whichever the case may be,...whatever floats your dysfunctional canoe in this impending waterworld of globalisation

sypkan, Wed 14 Dec 2016 07:06

one for you blindboy

"Why not talk to Putin? Why not acknowledge that America cannot run the world and that other nations have legitimate strategic interests? What's fascinating about Trump is that while he might regard America as an exceptional country, he's honest about its failings and refuses to pretend it has a right to global domination."

that's coming from the 'clinton news network' no less

America should follow it's rhetoric of engaging with the world, rather than its practice of invading the world

other countries do have legitimate interests and concerns, and I'm sure America wouldn't take to kindly to russia destabilizing a bunch of angry countries on it's doorstep while enjoying the relative safety of vast oceans

as to your point of economic stability ppffffff!

socialism for the stock market and extreme capitalism for the peasants is nothing worth protecting, that's without even considering the massive amounts of energy around the world currently being expended to give the illusion that everything is alright


blindboy, Wed 14 Dec 2016 09:52

"socialism for the stock market and extreme capitalism for the peasants is nothing worth protecting, "

Until you have seen Trump's alternative which is nothing more than a radical intensification of both. A fast food chain owner with a history of opposing minimum wage laws in charge of labour? And that is going to alleviate "extreme capitalism"? No it will intensify it. As will his tax cuts for big business and the wealthy.

talkingturkey, Wed 14 Dec 2016 13:00

Oooooweeee! Quote-a-rama!

First Blowie, before he self-redacts AGAIN...

"I heard Turkey was caught in flagrante delictico at the Geelong football oval male public toilet.

His conviction was receiving swollen goods."

Hmmm, what have I told you about projection for the umpteenth time, maaaaate? Tch tch.

talkingturkey, Wed 14 Dec 2016 14:39

Now, Andy M. Here's a few quotes.

Seeing as this thread is called TRUMP, I'll start with this one:

"Trump's the best thing to happen to world politics for a long time."

and chuck in this one:

"I'm a long-time Greens voter.

I love the physical environment in Australia - all its coasts, the mountains, the interior."

Is this Trump the same bloke who has just appointed Rex Tillerson, CEO of ExxonMobil and Putin business associate, as his Secretary of State? Who's got Scott Pruitt, the attorney general of the oil and gas-intensive state of Oklahoma and climate-change skeptic, to head the Environmental Protection Agency? Who wants Rick Perry, the oily Texas Governor, to head the Energy Department he once infamously vowed to abolish (though he may have got mixed up with the EPA there...whatevers. Same same)?

The same bloke who said climate-change is a Chinese hoax??

Is this what is called 'cognitive dissonance'? Or just a case of, as you described me, "you're all over the place"??

Before we get into Hanson (just don't mention Malcolm Roberts!), here's another quote:

"Politicians haven't touched the population issue with a barge pole, so if Hanson actually brings the issue to the table why wouldn't you at least be part of the discussion and at least try to steer it towards a suitable tone, which for me is an environmental and economic slant. To reject the whole issue because of Hanson makes zero sense."

Hanson's is a single-issue party. It's HER big issue. IMMIGRATION. And, muslims (this time round...chuck in some 'globalisation' too there).

Is it say, the Green’s (who you vote for) BIG issue? Here's their barge-pole/population policy:

Got a problem with it, Andy M? Seems alright to me. There are others out there from Labor and the Libs even NXT!

Just because Pauline has got 4, well, 3 members in the parliament, means Hanson's BIG issue is ours? Remember when Clive Palmer had 4 members of parliament? What was his BIG issue again?

What happened to Katter and Wilkie? They're still there. What's theirs?

Maybe that's a question for the corporate media?

I don't need to legitimate Hanson. Her BIG issues aren't mine. The substance of her positions are not worthy of my time or consideration. Though the way she frames her BIG issues and the obfuscations surrounding her blatant racism is. Dick Smith or you may consider it pragmatic to jump onboard (in Dick's case...though I wouldn't rule out his 'relevancy deficiency syndrome') or engage (in yours), but I don't.

Actually, I feel another quote coming on...

talkingturkey, Wed 14 Dec 2016 14:42

Actually, why self-redact on here, Blowie? You've posted crappier shite (believe it or not)

Fun factoid: Rick Perry and Pauline Hanson were both on Dancing with the Stars!

talkingturkey, Wed 14 Dec 2016 15:14

Straight from Pauline's mouth (piece):

"One Nation believes that immigration should be open for debate and a population policy in place. Australians have the right to a cohesive society and deny immigration to anyone who does not abide by our law, culture, democracy, flag or Christian way of life. Australians have been tolerant and welcome new migrants coming to find a new homeland. We don’t want or need migrants bringing their problems, laws, culture and opposing religious beliefs on us."


blindboy, Wed 14 Dec 2016 15:27

"Could it be any clearer what is going on? As I wrote last week, Trump appears to have made a deal, at least an implicit one, with the Republican leaders in which they get their way on many of the big policy issues—taxes, education, the environment, regulation of finance and the labor market—and he gets to keep hold of his businesses, and his personal brand, the value of which, as he freely admitted a few weeks ago, has been greatly enhanced by his election victory.
This situation has the potential to turn the topmost echelons of the United States government into a kleptocracy. "

New Yorker today

blindboy, Wed 14 Dec 2016 15:29

And from the same source

"Donald Trump has chosen a fast-food executive, Andy Puzder, to be his Labor Secretary. Puzder, the C.E.O. of the parent company of the Carl’s Jr. and Hardee’s burger chains, was a heavy donor to the Trump campaign. He is a prominent opponent of raising the minimum wage, of paid sick leave, of efforts to raise the salary threshold for overtime pay, and of Obamacare. Puzder is even critical of the federal relief programs, such as food stamps, that subsidize the poverty wages that he pays his employees. The current federal minimum wage is just $7.25 per hour. "

talkingturkey, Wed 14 Dec 2016 15:54

Trump...draining the swamp or re-filling the sump?

sypkan, Wed 14 Dec 2016 17:24

the dancing fowl strikes again

despite your aloofness turkeyman, I'm sure you do what you do for the right reasons. whatever it is that you do that is, it appears you have more than a casual interest in politics.

you should be taking this stuff on board, as I, like andym, am a long term greens voter also, but I'm leaning towards never again...

I think there's a hell of a lot of people like us that are totally disillusioned with the greens and labor. now it's a bit cliche atm to say you're disillusioned with politics generally, but for those that lean left this is very significant, as people turn to parties like one nation and the like because 'the elites' (another sigh-ful cliche) have not listened to the people for a long time..a very long time.

I'm sure many greens and labor voters are the same in holding their noses as they vote, because they don't want to vote for the miserable fucks on the right. but the reality is while the left says all the right things about the environment etc. they've achieved very little regarding things like climate change. we've basically had a twenty year talk fest anually circumnavigating the globe with nothing to show for it. in fact we've seen it really is only rhetoric as those at the top are willing to sacrifice nothing in their way of life whilst advocating strongly the importance of addressing our 'greatest moral challenge' ever. many big talkers on these forums are prime examples. this does not build confidence or compliance as everyone thinks fuck it, if they don't change why the fuck should we?

this is also the case for your pet project agenda 21, which endeavors to address world poverty, amongst other things, by sacrificing the wages and conditions of people at the bottom of the ladder in western societies, as blowin has so convincingly shown. they really should have thought that one through!

so you can come on here and bag us all you want for being, dumb, ignorant, uneducated, populist, etc., choose whichever label you want, and roll off as many examples of the hypocrisy of trump's appointments as you like, but it's all water of a duck's back, as the left has achieved next to nothing besides all the big talk.

mate, people have been giving them the benefit of the doubt for a long time. keeping reasonably quiet and in line hoping for a better future. overzealous political correctness has controlled the narrative so tightly the liberal left has been in a bubble believing they're winning. the fact they're so shellshocked by trumps victory shows it's the lefty elites that are ignorant or dumb, or both, not the plebs!!

so please realise, while these things may not be a priority for you, and it's oh so abhorrent that people want to talk about migration, unless you do, you're doomed, and deemed for the dustbin of politics. many comments at the guardian show there's loads of people like me and andym out there who support green causes vehemently, but seriously question the other policies of the greens (and labor).

so stay aloof and become irrelevant if you wish, but you're not really winning anything...winner

one nation came from nowhere in this election, never even heard from them prior to it, and I follow politics, yet they won four senate seats. since the election they've only gone from strength to strength. if the other paties don't start listening I reckon they'll outnumber the greens by the end of the next one. trust me, I live in the ghetto, where even there, talk of one nation was scoffed at prior to this election. since the election, there's a lot of people talking one nation

tonybarber, Wed 14 Dec 2016 18:19

Sypkan, can you see your own contradiction. You say 'they have achieved very little'. What is it you want to exactly achieve. The Paris agreement did set limits. Each signed up country is doing its own bit to achieve these limits. Our chief scientist, the man who started the climate change debate have both advised their solution. But yet the believers don't want to believe their suggestions. I am sure you know why One Nation has hit the nerve. A lot of people love or trust Dick Smith. I am sure you know why the Greens are faultering. I am sure you know why Trump has become president. Is really a left and right issue or maybe let's talk facts first before we develop a policy.

indo-dreaming, Wed 14 Dec 2016 19:31

Im confused how can the Greens have a population policy?

In regards to refugees they would basically have an open border policy where as long as you can get here and you are a refugee you can stay here. (as they would never turn a true refugee away, no matter how they got here)

That would put Australia towards the top of the list in regard to countries refugees would aim to get too and with over 50 million refugees in the world there is no shortage of supply.

And please don't even say, but we only get such and such amount of refugees....yes that is true because we have policy that discourages refugees from arriving, but if we had the opposite the numbers would be unknown, the number of refugees who want or try to get to Australia is not set in stone, it hugely dictated by policy as we saw under Rudd.

The Greens are exactly like One nation in the fact the don't really have serious policy, they just have policy to attract the voting demographic they are targeting.

talkingturkey, Wed 14 Dec 2016 19:49

So you're a Greens voter too, Sippy! So what's not up-to-scratch with their population policy (linked - miraculously - above!) for you, as a Greens voter?

In fact, the posting links difficulties have really contributed to the 'truthiness' factor on these threads, in my opinion. Maybe it's why some commenters have dropped off. Like Shatnerd for example. Not that anyone read the links anyway, hey? TL:DR LOL

Actually, my first impressions on your comment Sippy, and others of yours, are the number of buzzwords and concepts of the day bandied about. US media buzzwords and concepts. Like 'open borders', say. Who in Australian politics has that as a policy position again?

Agenda 21? My pet project?? Also I'm a Hillary supporter??

If there is one takeaway thing regarding any stuff I post, it is, maybe, don't conflate the US/UK, and us too much. Politically, and especially, how the corporate media works to disseminate it all. Here, there, wherever.

The Australian media landscape in particular is a really small gene pool. Especially owner-wise. And if you're a worker, and want to remain in work, and keep any options open, you've got to tread carefully. It's not really rocket-science to then connect-the-dots that determine how and why we then get the 'info' we get presented to us for consumption. There's a business imperative.

For example, why would the Guardian today have a (non) story, with great photo (of guess which 'power couple'), about a Tony Abbott radio interview in which he mentions Pauline Hanson? Click-bait, of course. Pauline is click-bait. Lleyonhelm and 18C is. Clive Palmer was. Katter? Wilkie? What happened with them? Are they still around? Who's agenda is front and centre again?

If Pauline shuffled off the mortal/media coil tomorrow, and we didn't see her (and Malcolm Roberts...actually, how do you and Andy M reconcile that!)) swimming on the Barrier Reef, say, EVER AGAIN, would the great Aussie corporate media consuming public get riled up about any of her stuff as the PRE-EMINENT ISSUES OF THE DAY?

Is that possible in our particular media landscape as it is?

Trump is click-bait. There's no real public broadcaster in the States, and now they've got Trump as president. President by corporate media click-bait! No such thing as bad publicity. And there's a sucker born every minute! Ka-ching$ all round!

And the way the ABC is being pilloried and dismantled by this government? We next? Pauline for PM??

OK maybe another quick quote, and stolen from Norman Mailer via Andre Gide, "please do not understand me too quickly." I'm just trying to use these threads to slow things up, well, in the main. Get some thought happening. And take the piss. But is it taking the piss, when it's being given away? Whatever. Read, skim-read, don't read. Up to youse.

...and then a TB & ID microdose!

Sheepdog, Wed 14 Dec 2016 19:57

Jesus H Christ!!!! It's the thread that just keeps giving!!!! It's like some, not dying neverending blurt fest thingy......
Anyhoooooo.... Kanye for 2024 I reckon.....

floyd, Wed 14 Dec 2016 20:30

Indo says .... " Im confused how can the Greens have a population policy?

In regards to refugees they would basically have an open border policy where as long as you can get here and you are a refugee you can stay here. (as they would never turn a true refugee away, no matter how they got here)"

Indo, I think, no I know, you are completely misrepresenting the Greens policy ... which is regional co-operation for regional processing, not open boarders ....... but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story LOL.

Oddly, Im starting to think Divided Nation's immigration policy is more green than the greens policy if you ignore all the races undertones.

sypkan, Wed 14 Dec 2016 22:25

turkeyman I do read most the stuff you post because I'm genuinely interested, and you do post good stuff (though a little wordy, of course).I do actually appreciate what you do here, same with blindboy, youse are a bit one eyed for my liking, but I admire your convictions and efforts. I think we'd probably agree more than disagree if not in virtual reality land.

however I can't be fucked reading their population policy because it's just words on a page.I judge their immigration policy by the crap that comes, or came, out of sarah hanson young's mouth. yeh she's gone now (the best thing the greens ever did!!). but she gives a good insight into the thinking of the greens establishment. and that insight corresponds with indod's post above, and the stuff blowin is on about.

I really think the left overstates the influence of Rupert Murdoch, yeh he had a lot of influence, but that '...times already a changing'. don't get me started on the guardian, they're as complicit as anyone in supporting the corporatocracy, they just lace it with enough 'greenspeak' and identity politics to appear leftish. it really saddens me that their loyal readers defend them to the fucking gullible.

I know you're just a shit stirrer, genuinely trying to spur on debate, but you've gotta answer a question occasionally, and please, please tone down the ambiguity on your positions...just occasionally tell us what you really think.

I like katter, and I think wilkie, oakshot and windsor were the best thing to happen to oz politics at the time. where are they now? worn down and out, just like Garrett, it really is a cunt of a sport, and that's where I have respect (very little actually ) for hanson, her resilience is amazing, a lot to be said for conviction outsiders versus the career politicians of labor.

tonybarber are you rattling on about nuclear again? seriously? you must have some shares in yellowcake inc. because your resilience and conviction is undying, though not really respectable. there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the fact many big players don't advocate alternatives is very telling.

the crap that comes out of clinton's mouth while supporting the saudi oil regime is just insulting. the same for her wall street support, these things are clearly linked and I cannot believe the likes of the guardian can claim to be what they are without investigating these links,...again an insult to one's intelligence.

sheepdog could be right regarding kanye, he's the right colour for the democrats 'diversity' push though the wrong sex for the identity politics journal ( the guardian) plus he's been photographed with the trump, and quoted as supporting trump, so maybe no. which leads me to the utter bullshit pushed by the clinton campaign. that trump is a white supremacist and homophobic. absolute lies fabricated by the democrats. trump said nothing, absolutely nothing!!! about these two groups but that didn't stop the democrats riding these lies for all they were worth, leading to gay people having a self inflicted crisis about what might happen post election. does that equate to concern for minorities?? I think not, quite the opposite.

again, an insult to one's intelligence, this is half of the issue, the left's propensity to cry wolf for political gain. clinton, the student of alinsky, using what was once well meaning, for cynical gain, and it dissipates all the way down to the minions in oz politics. they've lost all credibility in many people's eyes.

having said that, I totally agree, conflating oz with the uk, us phenomena is troublesome, but aussies can see the writing on the wall

sypkan, Thu 15 Dec 2016 00:12

I take some of that back, one government from the left has been quite productive and progressive. the SA labour government. despite the state being perpetratually broke, this labor government has managed to do quite a lot with very little.

and now the first steps to go it alone regarding a treaty with aboriginal people. jay wetheril is about as boring and unispiring as bill shorten, but there's no questioning his ability and energy to get stuff done


indo-dreaming, Thu 15 Dec 2016 07:53

It does have some positives but all regional processing does is turn second base to third base, a more affordable base to get too hence sees even higher numbers, but you still end up with the problem of either taking every refugee who is genuine or turning people away once you get to your set number.(and then those people then try to get to third base by boat)

But Greens could never turn any refugees away anyway it goes against what they stand for so it's not really a population policy, when you don't have a cap on our refugee intake.

Regional processing would never happen anyway it would be silly for a country like Indonesia to agree too it, it would be like ants to honey and cause all kinds of issues.

And If your going to turn second base to third, why not just go all the way and turn first base to third base? and give all refugees who apply for resettlement a chance of a new life.

Hey that's what we already do really, (apply for resettlement at the nearest Aussie embassy) but as we know not everyone wants to wait to go wait to be processed because there is such a a backlog.

sypkan, Thu 15 Dec 2016 10:12

oh, I see kanye is out and proud on the trump team now, I was a bit behind the times

I'm not sure if that awkward photo confirms or contradicts what I said above, but trump doesn't look to fazed having the black man around...for a white supremacist

some of his supporters may be having an elvis moment with their televisions though

AndyM, Thu 15 Dec 2016 10:30

Turkey's just here to "get some thought happening."

What would I do without your omnipotent wisdom TT??

You really are the suppository of all wisdom although that does help to explain a few things.

Just remember, I'm only trying to help you Turks.

udo, Thu 15 Dec 2016 11:55

Anyway Eddie Obied got 5yrs
NP of 3yrs

talkingturkey, Thu 15 Dec 2016 12:19

"Jesus H Christ!!!! It's the thread that just keeps giving!!!! It's like some, not dying neverending blurt fest thingy......"

Doggo, you're not going 'weeeeeny' are ya, comrade?

Snuffy Smith, Thu 15 Dec 2016 12:39

AndyM, Thu 15 Dec 2016 14:00

I think we established quite a while back your credentials in the groupthink dept. Turks.

A final word - I think your refusal on this site to answer the most civil and reasonable questions means that your contributions are nowhere near as positive as you might like to think.

Personally I'd say you're more part of the problem than the solution.

talkingturkey, Thu 15 Dec 2016 14:58

The royal 'we', Andy? The editorial?

Right......"Credentials in the groupthink department", hey?

I seem to recall someone giving you a potted history about Groupthink as devised by the social psychologist that came up with it in 1972, Irving Janis. And a definition from the man himself, that you didn't like, preferring the Wikipedia one, as I recall. They even supplied how the concept was flawed from the get-go, and how it's been resurrected and used as a pejorative term by the rabid right in the US relatively recently.

Anyway, the Green's population policy just not floating your boat, I guess, hey comrade? Dunno. As I said it seems reasonable to me.

talkingturkey, Thu 15 Dec 2016 15:02

Snuffy, is Little Big the Russian answer to the South African Die Antwoord [Dutch translation]? Too many answers, what're the questions?

Snuffy Smith, Thu 15 Dec 2016 16:06


indo-dreaming, Fri 16 Dec 2016 20:26

This could easily also go in the "housing price thread" it's both related to unsustainable population growth and housing prices etc

Blowin, Fri 16 Dec 2016 21:09

Here's a little slice of gold.

Migrants that come to Australia whinging about how expensive it is to bring their ageing parents to this country even though they will recoup the cost to the average amount of 8-10 times through their parents then going onto the taxpayers teat.

So 8700 parental reunions per year costing $410,000 over their lifetime. Multiply by ten years of migrant intake = $35 BILLION .

Money well spent ?

At least that extra 87000 people will help pay for our retirements due to Australia's ageing population.

Hey, wait a minute.......

LNP were right. We are living in the age of entitlement. Only it's not the locals that are entitled.

talkingturkey, Mon 19 Dec 2016 13:47

Aussies on the punt chucking in 20 odd billion a year, half on the pokies! Andrew Wilkie, where are ya, mate? Time to go for a dip on the Great Barrier Reef and have a chin-wag with the Breakie numpties on commercial telly!?

talkingturkey, Mon 19 Dec 2016 13:48

Except they're major sponsors of said telly stations?! Especially the Woolies/Coles pokies duopoly! Bugger!

blindboy, Mon 19 Dec 2016 18:26

...........don't knock the pokies! Why shouldn't those poor addicted bastards do their bit to keep state taxes more affordable for us sensible types.

crustt, Tue 20 Dec 2016 06:39

Because of people like my mum BB, who after my dad died hit the pokies and within a year was living on cheese sandwiches because she spent all of her war widows pension the day it came in at a pokie venue, who if she did not come in and swipe her card to get "free" drinks, they would send a card saying how much they missed her.
It's no fuckin joke BB, it's a disgrace to our society and so is your attitude!

floyd, Tue 20 Dec 2016 07:19

I see Coles' owner Wesfarmers is now wanting a maximum $1 bet on pokies (they own about 3,000 of them) but "the gaming industry" and Woolies who own around 12,000 are opposing the move.

In a previous professional position I worked with problem gamblers from time to time, most of whom were on the down-low from their partners and families; pleading for more money to pay the mortgage because the bank was threatening foreclosure. It really is sad and rarely ends well without ongoing professional support. I am aware of one person who put $300k through pokies at a very small suburban club without staff lifting a finger. It only stopped when this person killed themselves.

mk1, Tue 20 Dec 2016 12:58

Fucking pokies. Best pubs and bars are the ones with no machines. Should be illegal in my book but then that would probably impinge on someone's rights to wreck their lives.

blindboy, Tue 20 Dec 2016 15:06

Sorry to have offended crust, sarcasm doesn't always work without the tone of voice. You are absolutely right. The poker machine industry is a total disgrace , not to mention all the licensees and overpaid club executives lining their already over full pockets by what is essentially pure theft. Screw them all and the politicians who allow it.

stunet, Tue 20 Dec 2016 15:25

Yesterday on ABC 702 Tim Costello claimed NSW had 10% of the world's pokies which is extraordinary if it's true.

Today I went looking for verification but got befuddled by qualifiers - high payout machines, coin operated vs credit card. Pokies just ain't pokies it seems. The stats are there but they're friggen confusing, perhaps deliberately so.

tonybarber, Tue 20 Dec 2016 15:35

Problem gambing is a problem but it ain't just restricted to pokies. You would have to include AFL, NRL punting also plus others. Maybe Wilkies dollar limit is a start. Blaming clubs or pollies is a bit hard. It's a general social issue as are many addictions.

crustt, Tue 20 Dec 2016 15:42

No worries bb, sarcasm just does not work alot of times in print.

you should think about getting your hips done, had a mate just done it, used a 3d printer to make a copy of the original, if you get him to talk about it, it's like asking a born again about god. Rehab is no worse than hobbling round,cept it gets better

blindboy, Tue 20 Dec 2016 15:51

Thanks crusst, surgery is still an option for sure and if things get worse I won't hesitate, but I was riding my 6'0" this morning and getting up normally so it is hard to justify at the moment. Other than surfing it has settled down to not much more than mild discomfort now and then. The physio has made a huge difference and, given neither my GP nor the specialist suggested it, I can only wonder how many people might avoid surgery if they were better informed.

mk1, Tue 20 Dec 2016 16:30

My old man's fake hip became his strong one after recovery finished

udo, Tue 20 Dec 2016 16:40

Yesterdays wave of the day pic..theres 2 strong ones new .

floyd, Tue 20 Dec 2016 16:42

@stu, your comment about numbers of pokies in NSW. I've heard similar claims about AU as a whole but if that isn't scary enough I've also heard that we have the highest bet machines in the world by a country mile (current maximum bet is $10); many machines overseas are very low bet machines like 5 or 10 cent bets. So comparing over numbers of machines to other countries can never be an accurate comparison in terms of the harm potential.

mk1, Tue 20 Dec 2016 16:48


mk1, Tue 20 Dec 2016 16:48


mk1, Tue 20 Dec 2016 16:49


happyasS, Tue 20 Dec 2016 19:08

ive come full circle on pokies. these days i couldn't care less if people want to waste their pay on it. its everyones right to blow half a weeks wage on expensive machines if they care. but at the same time its also my right to demand that my tax dollar doesnt reach those same people in welfare. sure its keeping the economy going around but its the wrong element of the economy in my opinion. if folk want to engage that element then fine, but not off my money thanks.

talkingturkey, Tue 20 Dec 2016 19:52

You talking about pensioners then, Happy Arse? The pokies favourite punter...

Sheepdog, Tue 20 Dec 2016 19:58

" but at the same time its also my right to demand that my tax dollar doesnt reach those same people in welfare. sure its keeping the economy going around but its the wrong element of the economy in my opinion. if folk want to engage that element then fine, but not off my money thanks."

Happy, it's not "your right" at all.... If an old age pensioner wants to blow their pension on the pokies, then have to scrape through on baked beans for a fortnight, that's their choice, not yours.... I don't like it.. But it's not my choice.... It's theirs....
I'm amazed at people getting their knickers in a knot over the portion of their tax that goes to pensioners, disabled, unemployed, but are mute when it comes to billions on our war participation in Syria, or handouts to Billionaires like Rinehart, or the countless dollars burnt on "housing affordability" enquiries that btw recommended NOTHING, or helicopter trips, or pork barrelling.......
But I suppose pensioners are easy targets... And it makes you "feel superior", it empowers you, even if that feeling is fleeting... And it a damn sight easier taking pot shots at those on the ladder rung below you than those above..... Aye, champ.. ;)

AndyM, Tue 20 Dec 2016 20:04

Happy, to the best of my knowledge, gambling/pokies are addictive in the same way that drugs are.
If pubs and clubs were making money out of people by getting them into addictive drugs, where would you stand then from a moral and ethical point of view?

Blowin, Tue 20 Dec 2016 20:26

Andy - pretty sure that already goes on.

It's known as a liquor licence.

Sheepy - it's possible to have an opinion on two seperate issues at the same time.

I've heard some people can maintain a stance on many topics for a variety of different reasons !

Crazy, huh ?

AndyM, Tue 20 Dec 2016 20:32

Blowin I stand corrected.
I was thinking about "heavy" drugs but it's really easy to argue that alcohol fits into that category.

happyasS, Tue 20 Dec 2016 20:52

SD. i should have clarified. im not talking about pensioners. in my mind the significant majority of the elderly pensioners have earned it. they can do what they please, their working life and economic contribution has passed and its our job as the taxpayers to repay them for their contribution by helping them. if their vice is the pokies then thats fine. rather, im talking about unemployment welfare. that type of welfare is not "earned". it is there to keep a basic standard of living for people so that they can get their lives up and going again. throwing it down the mouth of a machine whilst downing 5 beers does not help that cause.

talkingturkey, Tue 20 Dec 2016 20:54

Doggo, nailed it...the strine-whine of the down-ward envying, coward-puncher...

happyasS, Tue 20 Dec 2016 21:16

TT. since im atrociously slow. you'll have to explain to me step by step how it is cowardly.

happyasS, Tue 20 Dec 2016 21:45

andy. same same. but im not talking ethics. im talking those blowing unearned cash on booze or pot (all 5 middle aged neighbors of my olds at that game) living in govt housing while treating the community and neighbourhood like shit and laying about all day talking crap while getting stoned. every couple of years its a different bunch. but nothing changes.

indo-dreaming, Thu 22 Dec 2016 18:16

Just came across them but love these guys video's, tells it like it is.

talkingturkey, Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:11

Happy Arse, punch up...not down. Cheap shots are for scaredy-cats...and cops.

sypkan, Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:11

very funny indod

very very funny, that voice sounds like the guy usually bagging turnball, I thought he was a bit of a lefty, but clearly people are all over the shop these days.

watched his waleed video down the page also, very good interpretation. I like waleed but this guy sums him up beautifully re. manipulation and putting words in peoples mouths

should I know who that Lacey character is?

glad I don't

indo-dreaming, Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:36

Yeah i watched the Waleed one also, i never use to mind Waleed and i use to hate Steve Price but since he has become the main man on the Panel his head is so up his arse and that's no easy feat and i actually like Steve now...not that i watch the Pannel very often.

I checked out the watched vids from that guy, which took me to this one, that was also pretty good.

talkingturkey, Thu 22 Dec 2016 19:56

And he's a friggin' Aussie (singular)? Jeez. "Telling it like it is!" Right....................

I reckon that tech-nerd mug would be hate-wanking the skin off his nubbin over that Seppo chick as we speak.

"Take that, leftie bitch...fark yeah"

"Todd, what are you doing down there?"

"Shit...nothing, mum...just...just playing [insert kid's game of your choice]"

floyd, Fri 30 Dec 2016 12:22

And so the noose tightens ..........

America gives 35 Russian diplomates 72 hours to leave the US and closes two Russian compounds ...... all because of their proven interference in the recent election.

Further, many Republicans are urging Obama's White House to take further action against Russia, which the White House is promising, all in defiance of the President-elect fucktard.

Oh the sweat irony of those Ruski hating Christian god loving dimwits voting just the way Putin wanted ... as they say only in America.

I'm still with BB, if he lasts the 4 years it will be a miracle.

talkingturkey, Wed 11 Jan 2017 12:30

Gold, Jerry, Gold!

GuySmiley, Wed 11 Jan 2017 17:03

While I am aware of the formal steps required to remove a president its hard to see Donald Trump lasting the distance. If he does its probable that the senate and congress will block his excesses to the point where he becomes a, I think the term Americans use, lame duck president. Easy to see China and Russia taking advantage of the situation, or at least attempting it. What a mess America and perhaps the world is in.

yocal, Fri 13 Jan 2017 14:51

Good breeds good, bad fuels bad

indo-dreaming, Fri 13 Jan 2017 19:35

We can all thank Trump U2 aren't putting out their new album because he was elected.

GuySmiley, Fri 13 Jan 2017 20:37

I have found there is so much hate about on Trump's election mainly from his supporters. Its a really dark time.

Any, I like this post for two reasons; it shows how well Obama can body surf and Lou Reed's lyrics.


sypkan, Sat 14 Jan 2017 23:48

"When asked what he thought of “Western civilization,” Mohandas Gandhi is said to have replied that it sounded like a good idea. I think the same is true of “liberal internationalism,” "

"The trouble all along was that liberal internationalists overestimated the ease of turning a great power into a great defender of freedom—something that became even more difficult after the 9/11 attacks pushed the country back toward the kind of direct intervention it had rejected after the catastrophic war in Vietnam. It was difficult to “stay high” in the age of the War on Terror, and Obama ultimately failed to do so—unless raining security from the skies counts. And whether it came to constitutional, statutory, or international law, Obama’s lawyers always gave him a free hand to fight so long as he kept it humane—always a frightening legacy for future generations, but one that has become far scarier far more quickly than anyone imagined. Great power may not corrupt absolutely, but it rarely advances moral principle unerringly. And now Trump is in the cockpit of the American power liberal internationalists romanticized."

Anger guysmiley...there's quite a lot of anger around....hate is the wrong word....and's become too partisan anyway...


talkingturkey, Tue 24 Jan 2017 18:09

"Turkey's just here to "get some thought happening."

What would I do without your omnipotent wisdom TT??"

Just don't get it confused with your 'groupthink', Andy.'s that Greens Population Policy above, comrade? I'm just stoked I could post a link of any kind to be honest...

talkingturkey, Wed 08 Feb 2017 16:08

After Sippy's use of 'Dissent' above, here's one for you, Blindo...see what you think.

The view from Russia? Lemons? Make lemonade!

blindboy, Wed 08 Feb 2017 16:39

Turkey I am not going into a detailed response to the article. If you go back to my original posts on Trump you will find that I expressed very specific concerns that do not significantly overlap with the arguments it puts forward. It is interesting that I am seen, simultaneously, as an extreme left winger (wrong) and a member of the liberal elite, (I would settle for any sort of elite!)

Blowin, Wed 08 Feb 2017 18:36

Great article Turkey.

Blindboy won't respond because the article puts him nicely in his box .

But please BB , don't think you're being mistaken for the elite , you're more of the follower than the leader - "Surprisingly, the majority of “critically thinking” intellectuals turned into an easily managed and manipulated mass, without any personal opinions or will. "

But don't feel down , you're not alone .

blindboy, Wed 08 Feb 2017 19:02


talkingturkey, Wed 08 Feb 2017 19:25

Don't get too apoplectic/ecstatic there, Blowie. You do realise that 'Counterpunch' (like 'Dissent') are of the left...the real US left...not Liberal or Democrat?

I think the Russian bloke's big hole in this piece is in his kinda naive belief in taking Trump, & by default, Bannon, at their word.

I mean, "Trump also hinted that he is interested in educational reform, but did not offer any details" as a positive?!

Hello Boris...Betsy fucken DeVos?!

Anyway, gettin' you to read some Counterpunch, Blowie...can't be a bad thing

Blowin, Wed 08 Feb 2017 22:14

I'll read anything and appreciate it on its merits , Turkey.

Did you do the political compass test that was on one of these threads ?

I landed not far from Ghandi on the political spectrum so I'm not opposed to a bit of " left " thinking at all, in fact I wouldn't ever consider myself "right " except on positions of immigration whereby unless you're for unfettered cultural genocide then you're granted Conservative status these days.

In fact , as a blue collar sort of fella , I have more in common with the traditional left than the new fish hand wringers that mistake identity politics for societal progress.

What's your position ?

I never realised that this article could have been complimentary with your views and I assumed that, like BB , you'd rather shut your mind than consider any alternative opinions.

AndyM, Wed 08 Feb 2017 23:49

Very good article by Boris Kagarlitsky, such a relief to read something measured, thoughtful and free of nonsense and hysteria - Russians can be pretty good like that.

Of course Trump is no threat to capitalism but the big question is, is he really a threat to neoliberalism as supposed by Kagarlitsky - is this the real reason why such a storm has been whipped up by the media? Correct me if I'm wrong but there was no storm like this when we invaded Iraq based on an obvious pack of lies. The media were almost totally compliant.
This to me says volumes.

And the last paragraph is absolutely spot-on and crucial. Unless the left divorces itself from political parties and to an extent political processes as controlled by the elites (how can you possibly call yourself "left" and support Obama/Clinton/the Democrats or for that matter, Australian Labor), they are doomed to be pawns, especially in such right-wing two-party systems.

Turkey -

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Feb 2017 15:41

Again, fellas, for the umpteenth time, let's not conflate the US, or the UK for that matter, and us too much.

It seems the Kagarlitsky article struck a chord, hey? I still think it's got some major holes. Mainly giving too much credence to what Trump and Bannon have been bleating about regarding workers and their concerns. Fuck, look at some of the appointments for starters, and extrapolate from there. Let alone their previous form. And what's not mentioned by Boris is anything about the environment. With Pruitt heading the EPA, for instance, how can you reconcile, Andy? Methinks, capitalism can rest REAL easy in their hands.
The clown/horror show leads to some real change from without. A mobilisation. A real left mobilisation. The Democrats can adapt, remake, or die. Occupy Democrats! The BIG Takeover (now there's a soundtrack!)

How was the other article? Not floating the CB* boat?

How the corporate media over there is reacting is insane...and insanely entertaining. Will it take Trump for them to give someone like Chomsky some real air-time??
Strange daze, indeed.

Implications for here in Oz? Because we're not as degraded politically as the US, we can learn and avoid...hopefully. The whole neo-liberal experiment is under the pump. Labor are finally moving away from this tired 'third way' crap. It's glacial but the signs are definitely there. The policy positions have shifted noticeably in the years post-Rudd, mark 1. The move leftwards, economically, is happening. Frustratingly slow in this 'immediate' world, but there it is.
And on the other side, we have the unrepentant Turnbull, neo-liberal 'free marketeer' par excellence, with the same old failed economic dogma. Well, I say failed if we're referring to the majority of us. It works fine for its intended beneficiaries. Mal being the top percentile poster-boy of that pack of real deplorables.
While he blows a gasket in a fit of 'psychological projection' yesterday, his party gleefully shaft the little people again.

As for your compass tool, I always thought stuff like that was handy for people that are usually uninterested in politics (both big and small 'p', party political or personal). Engagement is good at whatever level, huh? And what happened to the ABCs version again??

And ain't waaaay left of Gandhi a good place to be, comrades.

*confirmation bias

AndyM, Thu 09 Feb 2017 17:04

Just briefly, it doesn't seem unreasonable to point out some obvious comparisons between Australia, the U.K. and the States - all two party systems, all parties at least centre right and the party more to the left in all countries still does not represent social democratic ideals nor even many small "l" liberal ideals.
Turkey as I've said and as you also pointed out, capitalism is under no threat from Trump.
But when you ask me how I can reconcile Trump's appointment of Pruitt (with my environmental beliefs I assume), you infer that I support Trump.
Where did you get that idea from?

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Feb 2017 18:08

It's far from being unreasonable, in fact it's useful, maybe even crucial, to point at comparisons between Western democracies, and what can be gleaned from them, just don't OVER-conflate.

For example, the Labour party in the UK under Corbyn has shifted noticeably to the left. Definitely moreso than the Labor party here. But then things are more dire. Witness the corporate media's treatment of Corbyn! And don't get me started on Scotland!

And in the US, Sanders has been a phenomenon in the context of their politics. I don't think I would've imagined in my lifetime a major candidate ever uttering the word 'socialism', owning it (even though it is a mild 'socialism'), and not being torn to shreds by the media over there.

Things are afoot (left).

Trump as nothing more than catalyst in the US? Is this where your previous statement, "Trump's the best thing to happen to world politics for a long time" fits in, Andy? Short term pain, long time gain? Strap yourself in, it's gonna be real bumpy.

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Feb 2017 19:48

Frankie Boyle on the bampot in chief:

"I actually think Donald Trump is going to prove a lot of people wrong, but sadly not George Orwell, Margaret Atwood, or whoever wrote the Book of Revelation. It says a lot about the man that building a giant wall isn’t even in the top five most Game of Thrones things about him. Of course, presidents always enter office with something to prove, it’s just rarely their sanity."

Read it and weep. God blast America!

blindboy, Thu 09 Feb 2017 21:14

The complete and horrible truth about Trump. But somehow still funny.

Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 21:14

just realised I don't give a fuck......buuuurp.

Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 21:20


Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 21:53


Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 21:53

[quote=blindboy]The most perceptive piece yet written about him.[/quote]


Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 21:56

"Be afraid........very afraid. God fuck Amerika "


Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 22:11

I just learnt a great new word.

Fremdschamen .

Here's looking at you , BB !

talkingturkey, Thu 09 Feb 2017 22:16

Blindy's got a stalker, Blindy's got a stalker...

Blowin, Thu 09 Feb 2017 22:26

I can't help myself Turkey.

Surely you're seeing what I'm seeing.

It's gold.

AndyM, Fri 10 Feb 2017 00:15

Yeah you got it Turkey, probably short term pain, hopefully long term gain.
I'm also optimistic that people in Australia are finally waking up and getting to the stage where they might demand real change from the jokers in the major parties.

Gaz1799, Fri 10 Feb 2017 09:48

I'm with you AndyM I'd like to think people are slowly waking up here too. Definitely a few parallels with Aus & USA in this respect I reckon, but compulsory voting makes it tougher to change things.
It's a shame we're gonna have to vote for a bunch of riff raff parties and endure our own 4 years of pain to dislodge the major parties tho. Westminster system is a crock.

After hearing about the liberal backbenchers bitching about the lifetime travel card being cut up I'll be tempted to vote Bernardi Conservatives in the senate & Greens in the lower house just to watch the place burn to the ground.

tonybarber, Fri 10 Feb 2017 11:40

Yes, there is no doubt there is a change happening here. But who or what will be the 'Trump' card ? Bernardi - this stage cant see it. Hansen - she is growing but she will only diminish the Libs. So we are left with Shorty. Can he break out of his puppet mould ? Greens are self destructing.

GuySmiley, Sun 12 Feb 2017 10:16

Insiders on ABC TV is back today, god I missed it and brilliant work like this ........ highly recommended.

tworules, Sun 12 Feb 2017 11:48

thanks guy, the more you try to ignore it the more you miss

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