caml, 1449571471
.
crip, 1449575719
Totally agree that pix undersize waves. Not that i have ever been in properly big waves ( "man's gotta know his limitations"- dirty harry).
But...
It's always irked me that people can't just call a wave for its actual size - ie. face height. Anything else is just fiction, or some esoteric value that calls in various factors including water depth, swell period, ego, testosterone, blah blah.
Trying to work out a formula is just nonsense.
Sorry Camel.
southey, 1449577834
I lost a lengthy post ...
But I'll retry .
Personally every wave I've ridden has felt smaller than what photos have shown . Mind you cameras don't show often in the parts I like to frequent . With the excpetion of big barrels waves to me always seem smaller when riding them than scratching for the shoulder or getting caught inside . Maybe it's just my vision .
I think we are de -sensitised by tow surfing with guys on small boards making it look bigger than guys paddling on massive guns .
As for raw swell heights , I've been out of my depth and seriously undergunned a few years ago in 6.3/6.8 M ?!? @ 19 or 21 sec's . And that day I was told by somone older with far more experience including Hawaiin , that it was 15 ft . Admittedly that swell angle didn't concentrate onto the reef , and elsewhere was probably 20ft plus .
Crip that is exactly why people should talk swell heights not wave heights . The power involved is calculatable by height by period . How hollow I'd probably the third variable , but that is definitely easily recognisable . The big thing I think that is lacking is swell speed . And probably this is where Camel is heading . Until someone works out a way of accurately measuring the swell hitting a reef then we will have our measurement nirvana .
Rabbits68, 1449580564
I agree with Crisp. If this thread is about measuring pure wave height then surely it's cut & dry, simply measure the wave face.
Southey with all due respect but you've already complicated the thread by introducing other variables. I'm not suggesting that these variables don't necessarily affect wave height (your knowledge seems far superior to mine in this field) but wave height is wave weight, power & hollowness aside. It is what it is. A standard measure in feet is required, from a particular point at the base of the wave to the apposing point at the peak etc.
Why not ask the blokes that were charging this recent Hawaiian swell. See how many variable answers we get from these guys (if any) & why.
A great topic to discuss for sure.
wally, 1449581266
I just think of wave height as a measure of how tall the wave is. That does not define how big and heavy the wave is, except possibly in relation to other days at the same break.
We all know that tall does not, as a general rule, perfectly correspond with destructive power for anything.
Caml, it seems you want wave feet to be a measure of more than vertical height. You want the wave feet measure to also reflect the mass and the speed of the water. The forceful energy of the wave. I reckon that's fine, but that's not 'feet'.
Craig, 1449602626
Thanks Cam, totally understand where you are coming from.
But while those estimated wave heights you've given for the swell sizes and periods are on the mark, each location and reef etc will deal with the incoming swell differently.
Regarding calling the size, everybody has slightly different scales, but I think if you're consistent in you're sizes, people can then align themselves to that and get a true idea of how big it is.
I subscribe the commonly used scale of 3ft = head high, 6ft = 2x overhead etc and 20ft = 40ft faces.
In line with you and opposite to Southey, I agree with that photos make the wave look smaller than it felt yourself on it, but this might just be mental perception.
It's a big can of worms calling wave height, but as I said above, I think the key lies in consistency.
crip, 1449612150
Yeah, now I understand what you're getting at Camel.
But calling wave height based on swell height & period only works for regions, or maybe deep water offshore reefs. It does not work for individual breaks.
So I rock up at Bells and it's a cranking 8-10ft (faces). Double overhead. Craig would be calling it 6ft. Macho men might call it 4ft coz they're heroes. But with that swell, around at Fishos might be 2ft. Barely knee-high. Craig would call it 1ft? But down at Port Campbell, it's BIG. 20ft. 4x overhead. Craig calls it 10ft. Then the swell jumps. Doubles in size. Down there it's now 40-50ft faces. Craig calls it 20-25ft. But others are calling it 15-20.
There was a thread on this some time ago, and it seems that it's acceptable to have a sliding scale, where as it gets bigger, the increments in what it's called get smaller.
If I get to a break, I want to be able to say that it was x ft. Not have to look up a swell chart to find out what the swell height & period is.
As you say Craig, consistency is the key, across regions, breaks and sizes.
Oh, and the waves are double the height when you're caught just in front of the impacting lip ;-)
goofyfoot, 1449616338
I agree with pretty much every thing you say there crip, apart from the bit if bells had 8-10ft faces Craig would be calling it 6ft. I don't think he would, or would I. It would be 4-5 ft. You can't call a wave with a 8ft face 6ft. A 6ft wave would have roughly a 10-12ft face. IMO.
All the rest is spot on I reckon. I'm not trying to nit-pick either, just saying my opinion
tux, 1449618487
Crap
Small
Big
Bigger
I'm undergunned you go
These are the only measurements in my book
freeride76, 1449618932
Not wanting to weigh into the old wave measurement argument but just curious about Caml's call that it was the biggest Jaws ever paddled.
Seemed like Doz, Greg Long, Rowley and others had paddled equivalent or bigger waves.
And Albee Layer called it a 3/10 on the day....so he obviously didn't rate it as the "day of days".
Whats been the call from the guys who surf it all the time? Biggest ever paddled? Or just an awesome day of paddle-in big wave riding?
batfink, 1449620202
The only thing I have to add is that to get a reasonable idea you must be at water level. Photos taken from any height above the water result in parallax view error and will definitely lead to size being under-called. the great thing about Peahi is all the water craft in the channel, many of them taking photos.
A day some time ago, I'm thinking last year or early this year, where Dorian was just carving it up on a virtually windless and big day had some of the best surfing shots you could hope for.
But all you have to go on from the pics is the size of the surfer and the board he is riding, which are known, and the height of the wave face, which has to based on the two known factors. Caml, I'm sure the camera does lie, but it would not be distorting the surfers and boards relative to the wave face. that is, both would be distorted by the same factor, so the relativity remains.
What I can't imagine is just what it looks like when you are taking off on one of those beasts, rising to your feet as the lip grabs you and you have a sheer drop below you. I suspect that vision is priceless. :-)
Only a mad man knows the feeling!
Gary G, 1449626281
Seems like the solution here is units.
I can recommend a rock solid unit: The Gary.
One Gary is solid
Two Gary's is some serious size
Three Gary's and you've got a party
pointy, 1449626419
[quote=Gary G]Seems like the solution here is units.
I can recommend a rock solid unit: The Gary.
One Gary is solid
Two Gary's is some serious size
Three Gary's and you've got a party[/quote]
yeah but a Garry (two R's) is bigger than a Gary
Craig, 1449630600
Images from Camel..
The tow vs paddle shows they were paddling bigger waves this event than they used to tow!
Damon Eastough Cows vs Billy Kemper Jaws
Billy Kemper and Greg Long Jaws
Tow vs paddle at Jaws
Mark Mathews
mick-free, 1449657885
[img]http://i.imgur.com/TUhHTPc.png[/img]
mick-free, 1449658483
Caml here is the data. I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet just scanned down.
This is the 01 buoy approx 14-15 hours from Maui. Go off the HAST times (bottom). So the peak is 20 feet at 17 secs at 2-3pm dropping fairly quickly. Add travel time and peak was approx 5am with Surfline calling 40 - 60 feet wave faces. Which was inline with the waves caught pre-comp.
I can't upload this video but maybe Craig can
https://www.instagram.com/p/-9R_bBQZtQ/?taken-by=donkeyshow
People who have been there maybe able to put a figure on it.
Good luck with wave heights debate, you're opening a can of worms haha.
mikehunt207, 1449667394
If somebody rides a giant wave and nobody takes a photo of it was it still ridden? That is the question.
I like Craigs headheight =3ft and so on.
Lots of size difference variations in the angle photo is taken from, look at Jaws pics from the water shots for a truer size angle rather than the cliff same goes for Waimea .
Nobody could have paddled Eastoughs Cow wave, not then not now no matter how great they paddle, how many lifejackets they wear or how much money is up for grabs. Jaws has a more surfable/rideable face shape at that size than CB, same with all the waves in Hawaii compared to WA, totally different ocean floor shape, hawaii is just mountains sticking up out of the ocean so the revines become the channnels, WA is deep coming into chunks of shallow , less perfect (in many ways).
Good thread.
thermalben, 1449715980
Camel, using raw buoy data to estimate surf size is fraught with difficulties. Across the southern Australian states, large swell events are often heavily contaminated with local windswell - so the standard metrics of Hsig, Hmax and Tsig or Tz won't reflect the true value of groundswell in the water.
Additionally, the WA buoy data is proceesed in a slightly unconventional manner, to produce a non-standard output (they do this by truncating the spectral data at 11 seconds to produce 'swell waves' and 'sea waves'). I've spoken with Dept Transport about this problem many times over the last ten years, but it's out of their control (the processing is done by ocean/met software company Tremafon).
Therefore, when using your formula for Cape Naturaliste and Cow Bommie against Cape du Couedic and Yanerbie, you're not really comparing apples with apples.
Craig, 1449716076
Yeah that is about right Cam, here's both the swell height and period together..
I'd agree with 25ft bomb sets, but most waves being in the 15-20ft range.
carpetman, 1449716778
Hey Craig,
What is "Dominant" period? I'm assuming it's average period but why use the word dominant? Unless its the dominant directions average period?
Craig, 1449717363
Dominant Period is the same as Peak Period.
And the peak was around 6pm the evening before at this buoy, 51101, which is some 500km from the North Shore (approx 10hr travel time) and 690km from Maui (approx 13hr travel time).
Each little notch is 4 hours, so 12 hours between each label on the bottom axis. HAST is Hawaii time, ie 14 HAST is 2pm Hawaii Time.
seal, 1449723446
I also believe photos can make the surf look smaller than it was / is and this can be for a number of reasons. The angle, especially if taken from the same plane as the wave , often won't show how much of a trough has been made by the wave drawing the water off the reef/bank.
Also quite often the surfer turns 2/3 of the way down to the bottom of the wave rather than running all the way to the flats which can also make the wave look smaller.
Photos can also fore-shorten the image which can also distort the size ratio of the wave and surfer.
The biggest I've ever had the courage to surf was what the Hawaiians were calling 8-10ft but I would have called 15-20ft and was happy to make it in in one piece. There was so much water moving around, peaks shifting , cleanup sets etc and certainly looked and seemed at lot bigger in person than it did on any photos I saw of the day. But of course this could also be our own perception and fear coming into play, though, you often hear people remark how it seemed bigger than the photos of most peoples larger surf sessions.
I'd love to be out there one day in a safe place and watch something as big as Jaws break but be stuffed if I'd have the fitness, skill and guts to take that stuff on!!
thermalben, 1449723515
Sure, they're not the only buoys that get contamination. But it needs to be taken into consideration.
Re: WA buoys - they don't display time series graphs of Tp and Tsig, or Hsig. Most forecast techniques involve calibrating model predictions against recorded observations. But the models don't forecast "swell height" and "sea height" - they forecast either individual swell trains, or significant wave heights. So in WA there's no way to know if the swell is higher or lower that forecast expectations.
My main gripe with the WA buoys is the lack of graphed Tp though. The CdC, Sorell and Nepean buoys will often record Tp of 20+ seconds, yet I've never seen any WA buoys higher than about 16 seconds (for their "swell period"). Again, this is another calibration technique to assess just how high core wind speeds were. If Tp comes in earlier and higher than modeled, then you know core wind speeds were stronger and you can recalibrate your forecast based on this information.
Gary G, 1449724266
[quote=pointy][quote=Gary G]Seems like the solution here is units.
I can recommend a rock solid unit: The Gary.
One Gary is solid
Two Gary's is some serious size
Three Gary's and you've got a party[/quote]
yeah but a Garry (two R's) is bigger than a Gary[/quote]
Touche, and you know I like nothing more than a measuring contest
braudulio, 1449734732
Know whatcha mean G-love, nothing like getting the ruler out!
wellymon, 1449741063
[quote=thermalben]
I've spoken with Dept Transport about this problem many times over the last ten years, but it's out of their control [/quote]
Wow Ben never knew, big 32 wheeler trucks were involved let alone motorbikes and cars;)
maybe tell them to slow down and get a speed which is what Caml wants, with bathymetry........
tonybarber, 1449743178
Gents, given the multitude of variables in swell height and buoy locations, contamination, local environment factors, can't there be an agreed measurement method at the location it breaks ?
So if camera shots are taken at angles, it should not be too hard to work out any parallax errors and thus correct. The lip is relatively well defined whereas the base would need to be defined.
But I must admit, I do like the 'hawaiian' height - generally conservative ?
braudulio, 1449745488
For those interested in a more quantitative approach check this out (sorry for NSW only):
http://www.nswaves.com.au/
caml, 1449750097
Nice piece of work braudulio.
caml, 1449750167
Tb yes thats right I think near enough
caml, 1449750362
[quote=Craig]
Yeah that is about right Cam, here's both the swell height and period together..
I'd agree with 25ft bomb sets, but most waves being in the 15-20ft range.
penmister, 1449756968
That helicopter looks like there could be 5 of em stacked on top of each other in that bomb..imagine if you could tell a wave bye the hold down? Maybe 2min under vs 2min above...camel is the jedi...
thermalben, 1449784680
[quote=caml]I don't understand this jargon[/quote]Just so we're on the same page, what data are you looking at on the WA buoys? Using today's data (below), what numbers are you referencing?
[img]http://imgur.com/2JE3rcD.jpg[/img]
[img]http://imgur.com/eV35CdB.jpg[/img]
thedrip, 1449788358
Thermalben: I don't understand all the technical stuff you were saying, but that WA swell buoy is generally pretty adequate for me. Today's data tells me at one of the waves I regularly surf it will be 4-5 with the very very odd 6 footer. At another joint it will be 3-4. It's knowledge of what that data translates to at particular waves that Camel is talking about I believe.
And, referring to an earlier post, the buoys do go above 18. Some of the bigger waves we get consistently are driven by ramps in swell period and not necessarily swell height. I'm talking 6-10 rather than huge swells so 2-2.5 but with 18-20sec periods. That happens reasonably regularly over Autumn/winter.
I also agree with Camel that blokes in the southwest start getting nervous about calling anything over 12 foot. At my local Bombie it will three times over head (I am 6'2") and the boys will be calling it four foot. How does that work?
thedrip, 1449788425
And the data I was referring too was the slightly updated version I looked at about five minutes before my reply. I was annoyed I couldn't surf.
thermalben, 1449789210
[quote=thedrip]And, referring to an earlier post, the buoys do go above 18. Some of the bigger waves we get consistently are driven by ramps in swell period and not necessarily swell height. I'm talking 6-10 rather than huge swells so 2-2.5 but with 18-20sec periods. That happens reasonably regularly over Autumn/winter. [/quote]I've watched almost every swell event via the buoys, and have never seen swell periods above 16 seconds (as per the DPI graphs).
Yes, I know that the periods are much higher - and you can technically see the Tp via the directional chart (the description on the DIP website says "The point of the arrow indicates the period of the sea and swell.") however the graph - and this is the best way to display swell data - is the "mean wave period in seconds", with three values: swell period, sea period and total period (note: "mean" = "average")
Interestingly, today's 'total period' is only 8 seconds while the 'swell period' is 11 seconds. Doesn't this just make things more confusing?
thermalben, 1449789371
[quote=thedrip]Thermalben: I don't understand all the technical stuff you were saying, but that WA swell buoy is generally pretty adequate for me. Today's data tells me at one of the waves I regularly surf it will be 4-5 with the very very odd 6 footer. At another joint it will be 3-4. It's knowledge of what that data translates to at particular waves that Camel is talking about I believe.[/quote]How are you measuring waves? 6ft sets = double overhead? Margs looks 2-3ft on the surfcam to me this morning, shoulder to head high max. Yallingup isn't really breaking either.
thermalben, 1449789918
Avtually, it's bigger than I said - seems to have built since this morning. Been watching the Margs surfcam for the last 10-15 mins, and although it's very inconsistent, this set popped up (looks 3ft, almost 4ft to me).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/24TLLas.jpg[/img]
thedrip, 1449791687
Yals doesn't pick up that much swell - on a 2m swell it will be around 2-3' and barely breaking/surfable. Swell direction does matter there too. West swells get in more. It needs to be 3m before anyone starts saying there are 6 footers wandering through.
Therd are multiple waves that would be throwing up triple OH waves on the bigger sets today. Double OH waves would be common on many of the exposed reefs. Like I said, most locals would call today a nice 4-5'.
thedrip, 1449791742
[quote=thedrip]Yals doesn't pick up that much swell - on a 2m swell it will be around 2-3' and barely breaking/surfable. Swell direction does matter there too. West swells get in more. It needs to be 3m before anyone starts saying there are 6 footers wandering through.
Therd are multiple waves that would be throwing up triple OH waves on the bigger sets today. Double OH waves would be common on many of the exposed reefs. Like I said, most locals would call today a nice 4-5'.[/quote]
Is that pic the Boaties reef? I rarely look at the cams.
thermalben, 1449791760
Triple overhead today? No way.
Yeah, the surfcam looks from Southside to the Bombie and the Boatramp. Looks head high, slightly overhead on the bigger sets. Based on the buoy data it is a fresh, building swell so Craig's forecast of 4-5ft seems possible, but I can't see there being triple overhead bombs.
Craig, 1449791820
Yeah, some good size here on the sets.. 3x OH, surely not without some crazy wedging/focussing?
I had 4-5ft forecast for today and looks about that at swell magnets.
thedrip, 1449791932
[quote=thermalben]
Triple overhead today? No way.
[/quote]thermalben, 1449792070
Craig's images are the biggest I've seen, I'd call that 3-5ft. A foot to maybe two overhead. The image I captured before was 3-4ft. Looks fun under the offshore though at the right kind of reef.
thedrip, 1449792093
Craig, a few of the bombies around jut out like little underwater points from the ledges and waves around them and drag the swell in. They do focus the swells. For most of the truly open reefs double OH would be consistent on the sets.
penmister, 1449828921
Thats a kite surfers wet dream...can you surf offshore on a kite?
penmister, 1449831696
Teach me obi one konobi you are the only one...looks like 3 different waves..my maths is shit so have no chance of working bouys out cant do numbers...
barley, 1449832834
I remember RCJ and TRAY taking n shippies and asked about the size RCJ said'mate don't put a size on it, why box yourself in?'...Its interesting to here Peter Mel and co. saying/calling in feet/faces now..makes more sense..do you reckon there is anything bigger than a 20ft barrel? and double triple quadruple gets confusing...to me its just fuckn massive
Is Mark Mathews wave @ jaws the biggest wave ever paddled? bigger than Jamie Mitchells or Sion Miloski's?
wellymon, 1449838473
Haha
In the old days we just went to the beach and checked out how big or what it was doing?
Technology nowadays is becoming a spoiled piece of internet users.
Bring back the the Donkey and the newspaper with 3 synoptic charts please;)
mikehunt207, 1449838767
Well said WM
thermalben, 1449877140
Cam, you have misunderstood me. And, I've never tried to discredit you either. I'm just giving my opinion as a forecaster who has looked at the data of every Australian wave buoy, every day since I started forecasting. I've also met with the owners and operators of each buoy network many times to discuss my concerns with their data, and offered suggestions to improve the service.
thedrip, 1449882023
So that's two WA guys who reckon the swell buoys DO go over 16 sec. And over 16 sec is reasonably regularl.Infrequentl, but regular.
I'm with you Camel. I live in Busselton so it's minimum 25 mins to the surf, generally 35-40. I don't hop in the car without checking the buoys. And I say buoys because I use the ones south too. I'm not too often surprised these days as 20 years of checking a buoy and then looking at the waves lets me translate. I still maintain a handful of waves would have had triple head high waves yesterday - I didn't say any of them were primo waves people flock too at that size though, but the discussion is about making calls about height from buoys, not wave quality.
If that right is where I think it is, then it's not that exposed and there are several waves very close by that are bigger on any given day.
I don't claim to be as measured or anything as Camel, but his basic premise about the possibility of building a chart that correlates to wave height for a particular spot I think is accurate.
thermalben, 1449882480
Righto. Let me clarify things - if you re-read my posts, I said:
"My main gripe with the WA buoys is the lack of graphed Tp though. The CdC, Sorell and Nepean buoys will often record Tp of 20+ seconds, yet I've never seen any WA buoys higher than about 16 seconds (for their "swell period"). "
And...
"I've watched almost every swell event via the buoys, and have never seen swell periods above 16 seconds (as per the DPI graphs). Yes, I know that the periods are much higher - and you can technically see the Tp via the directional chart."
My point is that there is no GRAPHED peak period chart.
Yes, you can view current peak period data on the directional chart - which I stated above - however that's only useful if you diligently check the buoy charts each and every hour, on the hour, 24 hours per day.
If by chance you miss a reading (i.e. you forget to check, or the DPI website goes offline), or if a new swell arrives during the middle of the night when you're alseep, then you'll never get a chance to see exactly what the highest peak swell period was.
That's why - as I stated above - "my main gripe with the WA buoys is the lack of graphed Tp". When forecasting it's much easier to be able to look at the previous 24 hours, in order to identify trends.
EVERY other buoy service (BOM, Port of Melbourne, MHL, DSITI, NOAA etc) provide at least a day of history for this very reason - the usefulness of the dataset. Individual data points alone do not mean anything without context.
thermalben, 1449883099
[quote=thedrip]I still maintain a handful of waves would have had triple head high waves yesterday[/quote]And herein lies the difficulty in providing the service that we do. I watched the Yallingup cam for a period yesterday morning - yes, it's a sheltered location compared to most other spots - but it was perhaps a foot and a half on the sets. There was no-one in the water, which was a pretty good indication as to its surfability (winds were offshore, so if there were waves there would have been at least a couple of people for most of the day).
If yesterday was genuinely triple overhead across the Margs coast, then that's a heck of a size range to forecast for one region. And it's also not very useful either (just imagine this for a surf report: "Today it's flat across the sheltered bays and points, 1-2ft at protected reefs, 3-5ft at exposed reefs and occasionally 8ft at swell magnets").
By the way, this is a great discussion, I enjoy learning more about the way people use the various services (buoys, AWS, forecasts, surfcams etc) - so all information and feedback is most welcome.
thermalben, 1449883260
Cam, here's the images you sent through showing the 22 second swell periods from Cape Naturaliste and Cape du Couedic (yep, that's def what it is).
[img]http://imgur.com/BKjTiQa.jpg[/img]
[img]http://imgur.com/VUwZb0D.jpg[/img]
thermalben, 1449884040
Just back to my earlier question Cam - "what data were you looking at on the WA buoys?" - I can see you're estimating the period from the directional chart (i.e. the position of the triangle's apex represents the swell period). That's spot on.
Now, as I mentioned above - the problem is that there's no period history available (for peak swell periods). So if the buoy records Tp of 18 seconds at 10pm, and you don't check the buoy data until 5am, then you've missed seven hours of data, in which the swell period will have dropped considerably by this time.
Another problem, as highlighted in your Cape du Couedic image - see the area I have circled below? That represents around six hours of data, or 12 half-hourly data points.
See how there's an initial jump to 22 seconds, and then the next reading (half an hour later) it falls back to about 6 seconds, then increases to 11 seconds for two data points (one hour), then back up to 22 seconds, then drops to about 7 seconds before going back up to 22 seconds again?
This shows a faint, erratic peak swell period from its leading edge. But during those six hours of data, when the CdC wave buoy feed was updated 12 times, if you'd been reliant on this data as per the WA display, then half of those readings would have not shown the 22 second data. And unless you'd managed to check the data every half hour, then you may have very well missed it.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LlnRqgl.jpg[/img]
mikehunt207, 1449886965
I often wondered about Wa buoys. Sometimes on high period swell forecast very irregular sizes from swell to swell or no show swell at all compared to US buoys which are very reliable/predictable
wellymon, 1449903544
Quote Caml "It all comes from observing every single swell episode day in day out . In fact I might be checking multiple buoys per hour for days on end during a big swell and those buoys are located to the west of me"
This is what Caml does Ben.
wellymon, 1449905591
Quote Caml " Welly & mh go for it & drive to the beach every day , use fuel , its a lot cheaper & quiker to just look at a buoy graph . I never ever drive to the beach unless the readings are appropriate . Thats your choice "
Haha Caml that's all good champ;)
I was trying to imply in a sarcastic way! that without the internet with 10 day forecasts, buoy readings, forecasts from various surfing sites etc etc.
That I just used to load the old HK68 up with fuel, food, a few beers, big buds and travel 3-4 hrs sometimes 6 hrs to Mahia hoping on my own judgement call from reading synoptic charts from the Newspaper, that I was gonna score good waves? In the 80's that's what I did nearly every weekend religiously.
IMO all these sites and data from the internet have spoiled the fun of a journey.
I have noticed over the last five years living up here in fuck tard crowded surf land, that the numbers have shown on various days due to forecasting sites etc. Especially during winter months when a sneaky SSE or S swell would cruise thru Burleigh ,Stradie ways? 5-10 blokes out lunch time 3ft solid, 5ft Stradie and great waves! Now 30-80 plus people always.
Hey Caml you are in a different league to myself, you are psyched on big waves, where I'm just psyched on good waves much smaller than your realm;) I have never looked up buoy data as I find it irrelevant to my situation, I don't even look at SN's surfs cams if going to drive to have a surf! Usually reading all the hype on here I can judge myself with looking at at Willy Weather winds and go and try my luck.
The journey for me is the reward.
I live 20 mins west of Burleigh in the rain forest where I preside and love the bush with the perplexing Australian nature, so a drive to the beach is fuck all Caml, I can afford it (petrol) etc, I work and love driving around which comes another realm from where I live and it's a journey;)
I respect your knowledge continuously.
I have a great mate of mine who owns a few acres in Streaky who has meet you and talks highly of you:)
"Whitey" ...... dreaded kneeboarder? ring any bells, good cunt for sure.
Peace and big turns......
Jamyardy, 1449915951
The drip, you must be thinking of a different right, there are no "waves very close by" bigger than here, unless very close by is 20 minutes drive, and in that case you are right, some other spots would be a bit bigger.
Good day (25th June) to pick for the latest chart, the next day, the big day along with the following would have been more interesting, I think the forecast back then was 5.5m @ 18 or 19 sec, it was three days to remember. I think you answered my question Caml when you mentioned the period graph was not supposed to accompany the directional graph as an attachment, it has different dates.
penmister, 1449924718
Other side of the moon..half eaten seal on the sand
penmister, 1449925276
Merry xmas u animals
thermalben, 1449950731
[quote=caml]You know what annoys me is when someone who has university degrees or higher education than me starts using a language that I don't understand & I think its so they feel superior to me . It is my problem ok but I reckon for the threads on sn everyone has to take into account there are some common surfers who read . [/quote]Fair point, and I'll take it on board - but what language am I using that you don't understand? If it's things like Tp, Hsig etc, then they're standard buoy measurements which are listed on every buoy website - so I figured they were common knowledge.
tonybarber, 1449962327
Great thread gents - well said. Given the knowledge and technology we have today, is there an agreed 'simple' way to define wave height. It seems at this stage that it depends on the wave location, that is Xxl on rock shelves as opposed to point breaks such as Burleigh. That also ties in with the Hawaiians define wave heights. My sympathies go with Wellym.
Appreciate the experience and knowledge displayed here. And yes, no one should need a PhD to understand it.
caml, 1449979356
Dave wassell is calling waves were 60ft for the jaws comp . Face size I guess , does that mean 30ft traditional scale ?
caml, 1449979581
Those who have seen the "thundercloud " documentary on cloud break ; kala alexander says that was a 20ft wave I dont care what anyone says ! It looks smaller than the other waves of the day & a standard case of the camera making the wave look much smaller than the truth .
wellymon, 1449980694
I went to the cinema and watched that Caml.
Looked way bigger than 20ft to me;)
Craig, 1449981981
Yeah, 60ft would be face, and 30ft traditional.
penmister, 1449987090
Like sands through the hour glass guys...its like groms on a train talking wave size..but camel is the master..i can learn more watching him...
Blowin, 1449990702
[quote=wellymon]Quote Caml " Welly & mh go for it & drive to the beach every day , use fuel , its a lot cheaper & quiker to just look at a buoy graph . I never ever drive to the beach unless the readings are appropriate . Thats your choice "
Haha Caml that's all good champ;)
I was trying to imply in a sarcastic way! that without the internet with 10 day forecasts, buoy readings, forecasts from various surfing sites etc etc.
That I just used to load the old HK68 up with fuel, food, a few beers, big buds and travel 3-4 hrs sometimes 6 hrs to Mahia hoping on my own judgement call from reading synoptic charts from the Newspaper, that I was gonna score good waves? In the 80's that's what I did nearly every weekend religiously.
IMO all these sites and data from the internet have spoiled the fun of a journey.
I have noticed over the last five years living up here in fuck tard crowded surf land, that the numbers have shown on various days due to forecasting sites etc. Especially during winter months when a sneaky SSE or S swell would cruise thru Burleigh ,Stradie ways? 5-10 blokes out lunch time 3ft solid, 5ft Stradie and great waves! Now 30-80 plus people always.
Hey Caml you are in a different league to myself, you are psyched on big waves, where I'm just psyched on good waves much smaller than your realm;) I have never looked up buoy data as I find it irrelevant to my situation, I don't even look at SN's surfs cams if going to drive to have a surf! Usually reading all the hype on here I can judge myself with looking at at Willy Weather winds and go and try my luck.
The journey for me is the reward.
I live 20 mins west of Burleigh in the rain forest where I preside and love the bush with the perplexing Australian nature, so a drive to the beach is fuck all Caml, I can afford it (petrol) etc, I work and love driving around which comes another realm from where I live and it's a journey;)
I respect your knowledge continuously.
I have a great mate of mine who owns a few acres in Streaky who has meet you and talks highly of you:)
"Whitey" ...... dreaded kneeboarder? ring any bells, good cunt for sure.
Peace and big turns......[/quote]
Whitey from Narrabeen ?
wellymon, 1450004940
Round that ways Blowin.
Champion is he.
Doesn't mind a good barrel and an ol shin kicking stomp on the dirt floor in the bush, that's for sure... ;)
yorkessurfer, 1450007447
wellymon wrote: "I have noticed over the last five years living up here in fuck tard crowded surf land, that the numbers have shown on various days due to forecasting sites etc. Especially during winter months when a sneaky SSE or S swell would cruise thru Burleigh ,Stradie ways? 5-10 blokes out lunch time 3ft solid, 5ft Stradie and great waves! Now 30-80 plus people always."
It's funny how even the most overrun places you can still score uncrowded perfect waves if luck is on your side? In spring I went up to the Goldy to get away from a long cold winter in SA.
One Wednesday afternoon from my balcony vantage point I saw Kirra suddenly turn on with an outgoing tide and rising swell. I took a few iPhone pics and hit it. There were 5 guys out? Scored some filth little 3ft tubes!
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/taYPJEm.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/gwWxAD0.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/XIl2s2r.jpg[/IMG]
wellymon, 1450007819
Awesome that's so cool YS,
Yes you still can score, nice one;)
Patience and timing is the key, good on you.
Especially staying right in birds eye eh.
Blowin, 1450007906
Too true Yorkes.
Scored the best day all season at one of Aussie's best waves with three out all day last year.
It's all about the right place at the right time.
Those Kirra shots look so fun
Jamyardy, 1450012362
[quote=caml]Yes jamy . I have screen grabs from the whole 3 day swell but the period was only 22 at the start . The rest of the time it was less ,averaged 18 .[/quote]
I'd be interested in seeing those other three screen grabs if it's not too much trouble Caml. I remember that swell vividly, seeing and experiencing it was pretty good, although I did not hit the most exposed spots as my capabilities are not up there. I did have a surf with you about a month after it, I think you were on an 8'7" yellow five fin board custom made (sailboard blank ???) in Yals/Dunsborough area if I remember correctly. I did check out the 10'6" Paul just recently glassed for a young chap for the bombie you probably surfed during that swell.
The recent Peahi Challenge and that WA swell back in June appear to have had relatively similar swell size and period, Cow Bombie looked just as big as Jaws me thinks, the mainland ... not quiet.
Jamyardy, 1450052271
OK thanks Caml, much appreciated RE the readings. I meant the shaper of your board was (I think) from the Yals area, anyway that's what I recall you (possibly another chap with your name, if so sorry for the mistaken identity) telling me or maybe my memory is fading on me. I was in the Margs area for the big swell, but about a month later I was in SA for a quicky, yes Gravelle.
From what I can glean the Maui Bouy is half a day travel offshore, where the Naturalist Buoy is only some 7km or 14km off shore in just 50m of water, I guess that is where the modelling software comes in to correlate the size for when it hits along the actual coast. I will check out the Oakley awards site, and try do my own comparison. Agree on the bathymetry, Volcanic Vs Limestone underlays and distance from shore to the continental shelf would surely play a part in the size, along with potential for focusing in the immediate area of the break.
thermalben, 1450052345
[quote=caml]Ben why would you say im estimating the period ? Seeing the arrow is dead centre between 20 - 24 , theres no estimate really it means 22 . Thats more like just reading what it says .will get the correct graph see ↓ below[/quote]Yeah it is probably bang on 22 seconds, at the time I was also referencing the CdC buoy graph which is harder to discern. Wasn't a big deal though.
thermalben, 1450053600
[quote=caml]Ben this one , the truncating spectral data at 11 sec sounds like a scientific way to explain something in terms the average reader & myself cant grasp [/quote]Mate, that's a fair and valid point.
I was simply talking about how they're presenting the swell data. See below - this is a recent 'spectral density' plot from NOAA's 51101 buoy. Spectral density is essentially how the buoy records the entire wave field at a single point in time (i.e. all swell trains, from many directions, each with different heights and periods).
As you can see the highest energy is concentrated at 10 seconds, with very little groundswell above that (to the left of the peak). This shows that most of the energy in the water in Hawaii is windswell (which correlates with the small surf reports from there this morning).
[img]http://i.imgur.com/h4C89Mu.png[/img]
The WA buoys also record spectral density, but then they split the data into 'groundswell' and 'windswell', with the midway point being about 11 seconds.
There's nothing wrong with doing this, but as a forecaster I prefer to look at the same data from buoy to buoy - and there are more conventional data fields I would prefer to see (Hsig, Hmax, Tp, Tsig and/or Tz).
However the WA buoys further complicate things by graphing "Mean Swell Period" in three different forms: "Total", "Swell" and "Sea". So it's impossible to know how each swell is performing against expectations because our models don't forecast these parameters.
thermalben, 1450053900
[quote=caml]Also tz , tsig etc all could be translated into simpler terms .thank you for understanding[/quote]The main ones are:
Hmax = Maximum Wave Height = The largest wave recorded by the buoy within a sample period (usually 26 mins).
Hsig = Significant Wave Height = The average height of the highest 1/3 of all recorded waves within a sample period.
Tp = Peak Wave Period = The highest swell period recorded within a sample period.
Tsig = Significant Wave Period = The average period of the highest 1/3 of all recorded waves within a sample period.
Tz = Zero Crossing, or Mean Period = The average of all recorded waves within a sample period.
caml, 1450054498
Ben when you say "with the midway being about 11 sec " what exactly do you mean ? For example if theres a big period or short , what is the scope ?
thermalben, 1450055318
What I mean is that 11 seconds is where they split the spectral data. Anything with a period (or frequency) higher than 11 seconds is classified as "swell waves", whereas anything less than 11 seconds is classified as "sea waves".
And that's what they plot here:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/eV35CdB.png[/img]
So the red line in the top graph is the height of the "swell waves" (i.e. any swells with periods higher than 11 seconds), whilst the green line is the height of the "sea waves" (i.e. any swells with periods lower than 11 seconds).
If you correlate the green line against the wind readings from Cape Naturaliste, you'll see a natural fit - when winds get gusty from any direction except the SS/E thru' E/NE - the 'sea waves' will increase because of all of the short period windswell being generated by the local winds.
Jamyardy, 1450061231
Yep Caml that was me, it was good earlier in the offshore while you were trying to crack a few at spoggies. That was my second surf at caves that day as I needed the extra salt water fix to get me across the paddock.
I never did check Yals during the big swell, I surfed further south. I just thought your board that you were riding at caves that day was shaped in Yals or there abouts.
Hey Ben, how is it that the swell for the last day on the Naturaliste Buoy is showing a ten second period, should that not be classified as sea given the spectral data split you refer to ?
thermalben, 1450061404
Cool, now we're back to where I originally started. Yes you really only need to look at the red line on both graphs.
[quote=caml]So how does the peak period get dragged down to a much lesser amount on the graph ?[/quote]That's because it's not a different period value - you can see at the bottom of the graph that it say "Mean Wave Period".
Peak Period (Tp) is the period value associated with the peak spectral energy (i.e. the most energetic swell in the water).
Mean Period (Tz) is the average swell period of all swells in the water - however the WA buoys confuse things further, as they have split this into "Swell", "Sea" and "Total".
So, I can only deduce that "Swell" (red line) is the average period of all swells above 11 seconds, and "Sea" (green line) is the average of all swells below 11 seconds, and "Total" (yellow line) is the average of ALL swells.
Therefore the reason the "Swell" period in the graph above never goes above 16 seconds - even when there's a 20 second swell in the water - is because it's averaging all of the swells above 11 seconds (or wherever the cut-off point is). And it's rare for there to be a solitary, pure groundswell of 20 seconds in the water at a single point in time - due to WA's enormous swell window, there's always residual energy from somewhere else or sometimes another secondary groundswell.
thermalben, 1450061547
[quote=Jamyardy]Hey Ben, how is it that the swell for the last day on the Naturaliste Buoy is showing a ten second period, should that not be classified as sea given the spectral data split you refer to ?[/quote]Good point. I don't actually know where they are splitting the data but other marine agencies have quoted 11 seconds as the divider between sea/swell waves so I figured that'd be the case.
But this only highlights the problems in presenting the data this way. I mostly prefer the BOM's charts for CdC and Sorell, as they're very easy to understand and interpret. They are non-directional though.
Jamyardy, 1450061717
Understood, thanks Ben.
caml, 1450062140
Margarets is where the 5 finner was made jamy . I remember our conversation but had forgotten about the dud mission earlier that morn . Thanks ben
thermalben, 1450064437
I've been doing that for years too Cam - it's one of my many unpublished tricks (tried to work out a way to get the calculations on the site, but it's very hard to process automatically).
It'd be much easier though if the WA buoys graphed peak periods - it's a much quicker, more efficient way of looking at data rather than screengrabbing their website every 30 mins (or trying to remember what it was).
thermalben, 1450064643
One of the other tricks we have is estimating windswell percentage using proxy data from nearby weather stations. So, for the CdC buoy we can look at the buoy trace and map it against average wind speed from Neptune Island (also Cape Borda) - this gives a useful gauge on how much true "groundswell" is contained within the buoy data.
Cape Sorell has a weather station with the same name, Pt Nepean tracks well against South Channel Island, and Cape Naturaliste buoy and weather station map well too.
southey, 1450095834
Camel /Ben .
As you guys have discussed and it seems come to a mutual understanding . I think the most important thing for these observations is familiarity for patterns , local nuances and how that correlates to what you observe at the waters edge . And if I had of had time I would of commented and perhaps shortened the time it took for you both to understand each other's point .:)
Cam , I didn't say that your method ( of which I started using when I was west and to a lesser extent when I originally started started travelling into SA prior to that ) . I think at some stage Ben , Craig , someone else and myself discussed this in another thread a few years back .
My main point was that in the SE region using 3 different buoys , often 2of them are contaminated by local winds , the actual swell creating winds or the fact that one is located much further south than the other two .
The other thing I tried to write is that the refraction that often is involved due to both bathymetry and tide flows will Filter such contamination out even if all three locales are experiencing similar winds . This uniqueness adds to making the surf coast a rarity and unusually consistent Region especially in regards to surface conditions but mainly clean straight " ground swells " . Even if too often small .
goofyfoot, 1450120498
Please get yourself a computer camel I would love to see that
thermalben, 1450397329
I know this is somewhat contraire to the thread title, but what's with so many people saying ADS won the World Title at "2ft Pipe"? It's all over social media plus the comments sections of many websites.
Is this to somehow lessen to merits of his achievement?
I certainly wish the World Title could have been decided in yesterday's primo conditions. But today was a lot bigger than 2ft, no matter what your scale is. Just goes to show how erractic everyone's size calls are, no matter if it's 2ft or 25ft.
lostdoggy, 1450405001
I've stayed away from said comments sections so haven't seen exactly what was said, but do you think they would have said the same thing if Mick got through?
Adriano's surfing is better suited to powerful waves now anyway. He's not the chop hop wonder kid who won the junior title anymore.
Love seeing him on solid days at Bells and JBay. Don't care what some people say, I reckon he has great style.
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