Climate Change

blowfly's picture
blowfly started the topic in Wednesday, 1 Jul 2020 at 9:40am

.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 8:48pm

Blaming capitalism for human accelerated climate change is just not valid.

Major contributors to the problem are China, India, Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc, and these are not capitalist economies.

Also, the industrial revolution and burning of coal started in Britain well before it resembled the capitalist liberal democracy it is today.

Actually the industrial revolution and resulting demand for, and hence need for mass production of, the new products it was able to produce is one of the main things that spurred on the development of capitalism and new forms of economic, social and political organisation. Everyone desired the prosperity the industrial revolution promised.

More generally, all throughout history civilisations faced environmental pressures due to their population sizes and current levels of technologies. This has occurred for thousands of years, well before the idea of capitalism.

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 9:31pm

Whether we fix it(keep it at bay)or not the Earth will be just fine once we are gone. Arrogance of humans. It’s amazing what our species has achieved but our rise or demise will not register but a blip on the Earth’s timeline.

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 9:30pm

.

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 10:07pm

Polluter pays. Its a pretty simple, standard modern economic concept. But you know woke socialists and shit.
Don’t mention the (carbon tax) war.

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 10:14pm

True! But it matters not in the (our)end.

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 10:25pm

Indo and GSCO are copping out.? It’s up to individuals? Hahaha. As others have said it’s required of governments to sway the change. Mandate, legislate, restrict and incentivise for change. It’s not going to happen fast with the current system. Could I care less. No. Blip on the big scale. We are gone anyway. Always were.

arcadia's picture
arcadia's picture
arcadia Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 11:04pm

Do you have children, Seeds?

seeds's picture
seeds's picture
seeds Sunday, 11 Sep 2022 at 11:11pm

Yes I do

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 6:35am

The earth will be just fine, obviously it’s a matter of how much value you put on mitigating disruption and human suffering.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 7:50am

There's lots of "science" (vomit) and really interesting graphs estimating the wild fluctuations in the earth's climate going back thousands, even millions, of years (1, 2, 3):

It wasn't that long ago that the earth had no polar ice caps at all.

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 8:01am

I believe the issue is the rate of change? But I just read that once in a woke”vomit” CSIRO article. Pretty sure there was some math in there though. So yeah there’s that.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 8:05am

That may be so - though personally I wouldn't consider 50 million years "not that long ago" in a conversation about human habitation.

The current 'fluctuation' perfectly marks the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, meaning it's almost certainly due to emissions released since then. On that point alone, we have some obligation to our immediate generations.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 8:49am
bonza wrote:

I believe the issue is the rate of change? But I just read that once in a woke”vomit” CSIRO article. Pretty sure there was some math in there though. So yeah there’s that.

CSIRO are just part of the elites controlling the narrative.

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:09am

Oh dear.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:11am

Based on the EPICA graph, we're currently living in an upswing in average temperatures that started about 20,000 years ago, and the actual temperature has fluctuated wildly around that average the whole time, as it is now.

Humans have accelerated the current upswing above its natural rate. That seems beyond doubt from the "science" (just vomited again).

But the point is, to blame it on things like liberal democracy, capitalism, communism, big business, governments, developing nations, etc, is ridiculous. The industrial revolution and burning of fossil fuels resulted in new products, material prosperity and way of life that everyone desired the world over, regardless of the form of political, economic, social, etc, organisation and of who owns the means of production.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:29am

Modern day capitalism has put profits above all other corporate responsibility. Most of the stuff you’re posting is mindless uninformed dribble. Adding woke strategically to each post makes you look like a tosser. GSCO, please stop being an Uninformed tosser

DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:34am
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet's picture
DudeSweetDudeSweet Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:37am

Was just down the beach. Ocean level is higher now than a few hours earlier.

Global warming is here !

We are all going to perish. Go long floatie stocks.

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 2:41pm

Dunno what those mining companies are whinging about, a bobcat and a couple of lads on shovels and this place will be good as new in a weekend.

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 6:07pm
soggydog wrote:

Modern day capitalism has put profits above all other corporate responsibility. Most of the stuff you’re posting is mindless uninformed dribble. Adding woke strategically to each post makes you look like a tosser. GSCO, please stop being an Uninformed tosser

Thanks for your kind comment.

I think you're exactly correct (even the part about me being a tosser posting mindless dribble) and actually prove my point.

The whole underlying principle of capitalism/market economies is the profit motive: Businesses earn a profit when they provide a product or service that consumers demand (want or desire), in a cost effective way. In that way capitalism provides exactly what the people want - including all the modern luxuries, material goods, conveniences, etc, that make our living standards so high and our quality of life so good, most of which arose out of the industrial revolution and burning fossil fuels.

Communism/socialism also attempts to do this satisfaction of consumer demand, just in a different way, via a different means (state coordination and control).

I think what you're really trying to say that businesses, in their pursuit of profit, often act unethically, including damaging the environment. But unethical behaviour is not an argument specifically against capitalism because this behaviour occurs in every walk of life - even in...heaven forbid...omg...shock horror...wait for it..."science" (vomit).

Capitalism is evidently a very efficient, nimble and responsive system via which to allocate resources to producing what people want (more efficient than communism/socialism) - so good that it even produces a massive range of products and services that people keep buying even when these people know full well that they are destroying the environment buy purchasing and consuming them!

Power to the people!!!

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 6:50pm

"these people know full well that they are destroying the environment buy purchasing and consuming them!"

Hence the need for intelligent government intervention.

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 8:03pm

What’s your solution gsco. What should we do? Is there a role for Government?

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:23pm

It's the question of our time.

Of course there's a role for government in our market economies in the form of encouraging research and development, in taxes, subsidies and regulation, and in helping foster the business conditions that make it profitable for business to adapt.

Permission to think about a proper coherent response to it Bonza.

But when I google "climate change solutions" and read the immediate links that come up from nasa, greenpeace, climate council, scientific american, nature, unep, permaculture websites, etc, it seems that the solutions are all there and obvious.

And when I flick through my textbooks on environmental economics from my undergraduate degree in economics, I remember how much I once believed in this stuff (such as a carbon tax) and it seems that the solutions are in there and obvious too.

But I now realise that the issue of the environment is not as simple as being just about the environment, but is very multifaceted, also incorporating:
- geopolitical security concerns
- questions of human rights and development fairness, including colonialism
- wonderings about the responsiveness of democratic/capitalist type systems vs authoritarian/state planned type systems
- questions marks over science
- uncertainty about the future particularly in terms of human ingenuity and creativity
- questions about values
- etc, many more.

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Monday, 12 Sep 2022 at 9:41pm

Mate everything you just said. Is exactly what everyone here except indo has been saying. Why are you arguing with yourself ?

gsco's picture
gsco's picture
gsco Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 7:03am

I don't mind. tbh I haven't been following this thread.

If I appear uninformed then it's because I switched off from the debate when we lost the carbon tax, which from an economic perspective seemed like a sensible, if imperfect, step forwards.

If anything in here the last few days I'm arguing against some colleagues in an employment/academia setting who've been lecturing me recently that "climate change is real" and on "debunking climate change myths" and on the "devastating impacts of climate change" but when I go around to their house for dinner they're living the most energy guzzling, environmentally destructive lifestyles with all the modern toys and conveniences of anyone.

Those inauthentic academic frauds need to shut the fuck up.

In here I think I'm just venting what I'm too gutless to say to their faces.

But it's just an internet forum so I don't care.

Lucky for me I get to wake up to a beautiful day on the beach at the Sunny Coast and the people suffering the effects of climate change due to my modern lifestyle are worlds away...

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 7:45am

Fair enough.

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 7:52am

Now over to indo on the virtues of a carbon tax. Hahah

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 8:04am
AndyM wrote:

Dunno what those mining companies are whinging about, a bobcat and a couple of lads on shovels and this place will be good as new in a weekend.

You people do my head in, without these mines you wouldn't be here commenting, pretty much everything we physically own is only possible because of mining.

BTW. This photo is perhaps the worst example possible, its a pretty small mining site and very well contained, zoom in and have a look at the landscape outside the edge of the mine it appears as it possibly has for thousands of years and once that mine is finished even if not rehabilitated it will soon be taken over by nature again.

Australia has some of the strictest environmental practises and regulation in the world, unlike developing countries, where regulation is very weak and those outer areas around the border often become contaminated.

Anyway heres a much better photo of mass environmental destruction, Melbourne city, this will always look like this it will never be lush and green with life again, not my scene but i guess the Green voters have to live somewhere.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 8:03am
bonza wrote:

Now over to indo on the virtues of a carbon tax. Hahah

Is that the thing the Greens voted against?

bonza's picture
bonza's picture
bonza Tuesday, 13 Sep 2022 at 8:11am

touche

Craig's picture
Craig's picture
Craig Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 9:38am

Big move by Yvon and Patagonia here..

Good on him!

https://www.patagonia.com/ownership/?utm_source=instagram&utm_medium=social

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Thursday, 15 Sep 2022 at 8:05pm
Craig wrote:

Big move by Yvon and Patagonia here..

Good on him!

https://www.patagonia.com/ownership/?utm_source=instagram&utm_medium=social

Just came across this story , that’s a huge contribution. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-15/patagonia-gives-company-to-climat...

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Tuesday, 20 Sep 2022 at 11:04am
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 10:54am

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 4:14pm

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2022/09/world-enters-new-coal-golden-age/

"Prices never budge below $300 per tonne. This is FAR above the entire global cost curve. Indeed, it is so far above it that markets are incentivising a new golden age of coal. Pretty much every gram of unmined coal anywhere is going to be dug up and burned."

sorry crew, truly sorry.

You know, I posted up in the erosion thread a few great links about Gero but swellnet must be an east coast site or something as they didn't seem to raise much discussion. What you are looking at in the Point Moore footage is a 10-15cm sea level rise (brought on in this case by prolonged La Nina increasing the size/flow of the Leeuwin current)... it's a perfect example of what the models predict. It's an actual sea level rise to show what that might look like. Standing there under an eroded foredune exposed at 16-20ft, I was shocked.

I went to many other beaches in the midwest and couldn't find erosion similar to that in town, however. Did I detect a slightly steeper foredune at Backers, maybe a little more rock exposed at flatties... maybe all the groynes/marina shenanigans have particularly starved the town coast of sand... Is it the sand mining which continues at Southgates - are we beginning to see starvation from this?

At any rate the Leeuwin current has been in full effect and the sea level rose.

edit: gsco, great comments at top of thread. It wasn't capitalism, it was more... people and technology.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 4:30pm
velocityjohnno wrote:

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2022/09/world-enters-new-coal-golden-age/

"Prices never budge below $300 per tonne. This is FAR above the entire global cost curve. Indeed, it is so far above it that markets are incentivising a new golden age of coal. Pretty much every gram of unmined coal anywhere is going to be dug up and burned."

sorry crew, truly sorry..

Saw that.

Speaking of coal for all the Adani haters, here's the Carmichael mine now

And the ROM pad (Run of mine stockpile area)

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 5:28pm

Ah scale...
Will never forget being on a mineral sands enterprise somewhere with the 1200 ton crusher/heater thing rotating splendidly and massively, and asking "what is it making?"

"Food additives."

Spat my coffee.

Distracted's picture
Distracted's picture
Distracted Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 5:52pm
velocityjohnno wrote:

Ah scale...
Will never forget being on a mineral sands enterprise somewhere with the 1200 ton crusher/heater thing rotating splendidly and massively, and asking "what is it making?"

"Food additives."

Spat my coffee.

You’ve got me VJ…. what sort of additives? Titanium?!

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 6:15pm

Close Distracted. .
Titanium dioxide and Silicon dioxide are used as food additives.

AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace Friday, 23 Sep 2022 at 6:21pm
stunet wrote:

That may be so - though personally I wouldn't consider 50 million years "not that long ago" in a conversation about human habitation.

The current 'fluctuation' perfectly marks the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, meaning it's almost certainly due to emissions released since then. On that point alone, we have some obligation to our immediate generations.

Stunet. Finally, someone’s talking sense. ✅

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM Saturday, 24 Sep 2022 at 10:26am

VJ, when you say you were on a mineral sands enterprise, was it the Enterprise lease by any chance?

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno Saturday, 24 Sep 2022 at 2:48pm

Hi Andy, wasn't that one, can't say further. I had the best job in the universe, so many varied and different sites all over the country, meeting new people every time, so much to see, and time to drive/fly there to have your own thoughts and suss out how it (geographically, botanically etc) is all put together.

Robwilliams's picture
Robwilliams's picture
Robwilliams Tuesday, 27 Sep 2022 at 4:32pm
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace Tuesday, 27 Sep 2022 at 5:55pm
Robwilliams wrote:

abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-27/southern-cassowary-population-sig...

Robwilliams. good one mate, thanks and great news. Gotta laugh at the ABC’s quick preamble, why do many headlines start with ‘dangerous’when referencing animals. Yes, they will go you if chicks are in the vicinity but anyone who has been injured by a bird is usually too close or fucking up near them. A majestic animal and part of a very old lineage of birds the ‘ratites’.
They play a very important role in the Wet Tropics as dispersal agents for rainforest plants and trees. They eat a shitload of fruits and seeds and are prolific shitters, they leave big ovate shaped turds everywhere which other invertebrates dispose of over time. I’ve seen them around Lake Eacham on the Atherton tablelands, often two or three and sometimes with chicks hiding on the fringes of the forest. Admire and observe from a distance is the best advice.

Robwilliams's picture
Robwilliams's picture
Robwilliams Wednesday, 28 Sep 2022 at 8:20pm
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace's picture
AlfredWallace Thursday, 29 Sep 2022 at 8:49am
Robwilliams wrote:

Excellent Alfred .

Abc news
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-28/questions-over-land-clearing-in-n...

Robwilliams. Bit by bit we will have Australia cleared before we know it. We are one fucked up nation that keeps caving in to the farming sector. This bits fucked, ‘Can I have some more, this bits fucked now, Can I have some more ????!!!!
I live in a farming area but I’m not a farmer. I’ve revegetated our property over 21 years, truly rewarding, collected seed provenance to our locale, easy success. NONE of the farming families around here care for the land or the environment around them. They shoot anything that moves including, all macropods, cockatoos, corellas, galahs and other birds, all out of sheer ignorance. Sadly of late, a mob of kangaroos (68) I’d being collecting population data from for ten months with a total hierarchy of joeys, young animals, alpha males and females were eradicated overnight by silencer weapons. Farmers here burn rubbish and bury hundreds of plastic 20litre herbicide drums in their own personal tips, despite there being a ‘drum muster’ collection program in place. I’ve got two decades of photos and video of all the aforementioned. It’s just up my sleeve if I ever need it.
Nationally you here some good examples of care coming from some farmers, but really it’s an absolute minority. A farmer in Gippsland, Victoria claimed and was poorly fined for killing 406 Wedge-tailed Eagles in one year. There is NO hope.

flollo's picture
flollo's picture
flollo Thursday, 29 Sep 2022 at 9:13am

Does anyone know of a source that forecasts the cost of kwh as we switch to renewable energy? Often I see the claims that renewables will bring 'cheap power to Australians'

But how cheap? $0.20 per kwh, $0.10 per kwh, zero...? I read an announcement by the Victorian government about GW storage targets by 2035 which is great to see. But I noticed a claim about 'providing cheap electricity to residents...'. There are so many claims like this thrown around but without actually specifying what cheap means I see it as a form of populism.

My whole life I always looked at the cost of kwh I'm paying and the consumption requirements of the appliances that I'm using. I know exactly how much each thing is costing me. So if anyone has a reliable source that is specific about the retail cost of kwh forecasts per energy source it would be good to learn more about it. It would also be good to see some target commitment from the politicians about it as well.

san Guine's picture
san Guine's picture
san Guine Thursday, 29 Sep 2022 at 9:56am
flollo wrote:

Does anyone know of a source that forecasts the cost of kwh as we switch to renewable energy? Often I see the claims that renewables will bring 'cheap power to Australians'

But how cheap? $0.20 per kwh, $0.10 per kwh, zero...? I read an announcement by the Victorian government about GW storage targets by 2035 which is great to see. But I noticed a claim about 'providing cheap electricity to residents...'. There are so many claims like this thrown around but without actually specifying what cheap means I see it as a form of populism.

My whole life I always looked at the cost of kwh I'm paying and the consumption requirements of the appliances that I'm using. I know exactly how much each thing is costing me. So if anyone has a reliable source that is specific about the retail cost of kwh forecasts per energy source it would be good to learn more about it. It would also be good to see some target commitment from the politicians about it as well.

It's all smoke and mirrors, follo.

Maximise your rooftop solar and home battery storage (having all electrical household appliances) being the only currently available/affordable option to minimise your exposure to the vagaries of power supply. They haven't taxed the Sun... yet