The United States(!) of A

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factotum started the topic in Thursday, 27 Aug 2020 at 11:12am

Septic Tanks are going to Septic Tank

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 10:54am

she didn't want anyone there that might ask hard questions

the whole thing is so so obviously stage managed, right down to 'witnesses' reading from teleprompters, it is a fucking joke

the big big question still remains... why weren't the national guard mobilised?

when there was extensive unignorable intelligence there would be trouble...

pelosi clearly don't want that question addressed

and, apparently trump did ask for the national guard... if it really was a premeditated 'coup' to overthrow government... why the hell would he suggest protecting the capitol with the natiioal guard?

inconvenient questions, ...questions way too inconvenient for the narrative...

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etarip Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 12:58pm

You mean like the Supreme Court?

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 2:44pm

i guess you could compare it to the supreme court... desperately... spiriously...

tell me etarip, do you get all upset when the sitting democrats appoint progressive judges?

or is that kind of hypocrisy just reserved for republicans appointing conservatives?

forgive me if Im wrong, but isn't that the whole game? ...democracy at work...

I honestly cannot believe the butt-hurtedness getting around because of the appointtees of the supreme court.

yeh sure it sucks when it dossn't go your way... but the collective hissy fit full meltdown about an already known outcome has been next level...

as are the calls to action / calls to arms... yet somehow, miraculously, it's trump that is 'our biggest threat to democracy'

go figure...

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etarip Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 4:49pm

Did I come across as butthurt? Projecting much mate?

Your whole rant about the Jan 6 inquiry is, frankly, a case-study in butthurtedness. You’re bleating like a stuck pig.

If you’re going to go all out on the Dems ‘stacking’ what is largely an inconsequential House Select Committee, you’ve surely got to invite a comparison to stacking SCOTUS, against convention and precedent and ultimately national interest. But, this is probably my first substantial post on either topic.

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groundswell Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 5:18pm

How many people were arrested for drug crimes in the United States in 2002? 1.5 million. Of these, one third were imprisoned. 500,000 Americans will have to spend the next few years in jail. 1.5 million Americans will now have difficulty acquiring a job, entering a college, and enlisting in the military.

This trend is not new. Every year, at least one million Americans are arrested due to the War on Drugs. Every year, one million Americans receive a mark on their criminal record. Every year, one million Americans are barred from holding certain positions, and are refused employment for drug use. 13% of all arrests are related to drugs. The rate of arrest is one person every 17 seconds. Every year, 43,000 new inmates go to jail. 25% of these are for drug related crimes.

100,000 of these arrests are juveniles; Americans under the age of 18. These are 100,000 students who will have their life ruined because they have a black mark by their name due to a drug offense.

How much money did the United States spend on the War on Drugs last year? The federal budget to fight drugs: $20 billion. And together, the Fifty States spent another $30 billion. $50 billion is spent annually to fight drugs. This is $50 billion that could be used to enhance education, to create new jobs. $50 billion we could be using for welfare payments, poverty reduction, or medical research. $50 billion we squander every year. Meanwhile, the drug trade nets an estimated $40 billion a year. Who is winning this battle?

The war on drugs has lost the faith of the American people. A survey was conducted, asking Americans if they thought the War on Drugs was working. 86% said no. The youths of America vehemently disagree with the War on Drugs; a 2003 census revealed that more than 50% of students try an illegal drug before graduating high school. 85% of teens state that they have access to marijuana; 47% have access to cocaine; 39% have access to crack. What progress has the War on Drugs shown us?

After 40 years of war with drug use, America still maintains the highest drug use rate in the world, with 43% of Americans having tried marijuana. This is higher than the Netherlands, a nation infamous for it's legal marijuana; only 19% of Dutchmen have tried marijuana.

Every year, one million Americans are arrested for drug crimes. Every year, the drug trade makes $40 billion. Every year, the government spends $50 billion to fight drugs. Who is really suffering? Who is really winning this war?

The American public has shown time and time again that it does not want to continue the War on Drugs. The statistics have shown time and time again that the War on Drugs has not shown significant results. We are spending billions of dollars to criminalize our young population for actions that harm no one. We are fighting a victimless crime. Continuing this war will only lead to a strengthened black market, a disillusioned public, and a massive crime rate.

Our alternative is to end the drug war. Stop pouring billions of dollars into a failing effort. Stop sending millions of good Americans to jail. Maintain an illegal status on drugs, but do not spend billions of tax dollars to continue a failing offensive.

We need to decide: our morals, or our future, the children of America?

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 6:23pm

"Did I come across as butthurt? Projecting much mate?"

not really, the butthurt comment was a more a general observation...

"...Your whole rant about the Jan 6 inquiry is, frankly, a case-study in butthurtedness. You’re bleating like a stuck pig."

hardly mate, I couldn't really give a shit, as I - like most of america it would seem - knew exactly what this show trial would be... just more fiction from the dems... more fabrication from the dems... more breathless 'bombshell' drama...

just more manipulation of every tool at their disposal to the enth degree basically... just another sojourn into the realms of the ridiculous... which is why the public aren't really buying into it...

others however...

my issue is with the media

and especially 'our' abc... i find it disgusting they can perpetuate such unfounded bullshit, without even a hint of checking basic facts... but they've done it through the whole trump shitshow... 5 years of it! ..russia mk 1, 11, and 111, the impeachments, the pee tapes, the russian banks, hunter's laptop... and on and on the list goes...

without a single correction as new (correct) information has come to light

it's just out of this world, the misinformation that has been spread by once reputable sources... does my fucken head in!

and it's not even about trump at all!

...it's about restoring some trust in the system... which is lacking to say the least... yet 'the left' continue to play this game...

either because; they think they totally have it over the public; they feel some duty as trump is apparently so so bad; they truly live in the bubblyest of bubbles; or they are deranged beyond repair, still...

none of this shit is working, they are just making another trump presidency more inevitable...

'facts' are so easily checkable on the internet now, any half idiot can look up what's happening, ...but somehow, the media seem totally ignorant of this basic development, a wide known phenomenem that has been with us for a decade or more... it's astounding, i honestly don't know what it is they are thinking... full blown tds is the only practical explanation...

"...If you’re going to go all out on the Dems ‘stacking’ what is largely an inconsequential House Select Committee, you’ve surely got to invite a comparison to stacking SCOTUS, against convention and precedent and ultimately national interest. But, this is probably my first substantial post on either topic."

you can make loose comparisons if you wish... but I would argue they are very very different... and as to 'inconsequential' ... yeh nah...

and my point stands... 'stacking' the supreme court is exactly what both sides do when in power... you think biden's appoinment brings no bias?

and as to the secret service story... ffs, they didn't even have him in the correct bloody vehicle!

seriously!!

none of this makes sense!

are the democrats that amateaurish they cannot even get the basics right?

or, do they just know a compliant media will not challenge any detail?

is it misinformation 101? ... ie. put the lie out there, which will dominate the headlines for 24 hours, doing the desired damage, ...all before the truth can even gets a look in...

or, are the media / political class that deranged they have totally lost any and all semblance of judgement?

sure seems like the last one... the deranged are so desperate to jump on board- every time! - they seem void of any concept of what the 'norms' are thinking

it's just plain bloody weird

especially if this is all not a result of nefarious conscious decisions!

I'd actually prefer that ...as dark and fucked up as that is... I hate to think people are still this fucked up about trump

but it seems as if thay are...

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adam12 Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 6:28pm

Kinzinger and Cheney are Republicans so not just "Dems".
It is not a trial. They will come later.
Trump will get charged with obstructing the certification.
Others will also go on trial for that and other crimes.
Sypkan loves Donald.

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 6:44pm

"Kinzinger and Cheney are Republicans so not just "Dems"."

dude, two token never trumper republicans...

even better than "Dems"!

...for the cause...

c'mon you're smarter than that!

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 6:47pm

and, believe what you want...

but I really really do not want to see another 4 years of trump

I think we were so so incredibly lucky to make it through the last four...

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etarip Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 7:45pm

That was a pretty epic rant. For someone who doesn’t give a shit, you certainly seem to give somewhat of a shit.

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 9:18pm

yeh I give a shit

about bullshit

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etarip Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 9:24pm

But you still watch and quote Fox.

You do care, and that’s totally ok. You pick some strange hills to die on though.

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sypkan Friday, 1 Jul 2022 at 10:22pm

"But you still watch and quote Fox."

...so 2015!

'the left' and its liberal press likes to 'believe' just because something appears on fox news it's bullshit...

when the last five years has proven the exact opposite to be true

I would be more than happy to be corrected if you can show anything in that vid that is actually bullshit

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 4:48am

Fox as a bastion of unbiased truth…? That’s my issue. You’re so biased that you can’t even comprehend your own bias.

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 7:36am

“dude, two token never trumper republicans..”

And, to quote you - that’s democracy at work. They’re elected officials. You belittle them as not ‘actually’ republicans? Same as Cheney, McCain real, because they don’t support the direction of the GOP under Trump and his ilk.

You’re such a hypocrite syppo. That’s actually my issue with your posts.

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 8:49am
etarip wrote:

Fox as a bastion of unbiased truth…? That’s my issue. You’re so biased that you can’t even comprehend your own bias.

no it's not

but there opposition is even worse... as they unashamedly have entered the fox race to the bottom...

your cnn's, your nbc's, msnbc, npr etc...

I actually love npr, and listen to it nearly everyday... but geez, the slant they project!

and cnn... ffs if someone did a study on who presented more bias and spread more misinformation over the last five years, fox versus cnn - fark, i know who's won that challenge...

yet 'our' abc references them as though they are reputable news source or something...

shameful

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 9:04am
etarip wrote:

“dude, two token never trumper republicans..”

And, to quote you - that’s democracy at work. They’re elected officials. You belittle them as not ‘actually’ republicans? Same as Cheney, McCain real, because they don’t support the direction of the GOP under Trump and his ilk.

You’re such a hypocrite syppo. That’s actually my issue with your posts.

omg!

says the guy that dismisses a whole swathe of the republican party!

I don't belittle them at all, just pointing out they are hardly representing anything trump side of the story...

quite the opposite actually - a woman scorned and at all that... cheney is more rabid and anti trump than half of the democrat party... hence being so valuable to the 'cause'

dude, if you haven't noticed, there's essentially 3 main parties in US atm... democrats, and two republican parties...

i don't support either republican wing

but I'm more than happy to watch anything unfold that challenges the legacies of the bush, cheney, reagan, neocon nutters...

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 9:11am

and find it most interesting (and shameful) that the democrat party have sided with the neocon nutters...

geez, you can talk about the 'evil' of trump all you want...

but man... there's evil and then there's evil...

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 9:54am

FWIW, I don’t have a TV and I don’t watch any of the channels online.

I definitely relate to your frustration with the media. Standards of journalistic rigour and integrity are at an all-time low. It beggars belief how much Australian media lifts stories, issues and attitudes verbatim from the US. Both sides.

As for representing Trump’s side of the story: whatever you think of the testimony provided in the Jan 6 HSC and the credibility of those giving it, they’re providing it under oath and there’s a degree of accountability associated with that. The reality is that DJT could offer his side on the stand whenever he wants. Instead he uses the media to try and discredit those testifying and does not offer an alternate explanation for those events. He can say whatever he wants in that forum. He’s unaccountable. And that’s how he likes it.

Do you personally believe in the stolen election narrative?

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 10:43am

Truest thing ever:

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 11:52am

"Do you personally believe in the stolen election narrative?"

I don't know what to 'believe'

and I think it is most interesting how that question is framed... not just by you, but everybody...

when one could sinpky just ask...

do you personally think think the election was stolen?

but no, it's always about 'believe'

there's a phd in politics / psychology / sociology and the hierachy of belief and understanding right there...

and that works both ways

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 11:56am

I’m 100% of the belief that the Democrats would try to steal the election if they could. Whether they did or not is not something I would have any idea about. It would not surprise me in the least if they had.

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 12:22pm

what I do know is, the US election system is notoriously unreliable and open to manipulation, with both sides capitalising on this unreliability in the past, ...when it suits...

and I know, the media suspiciously all fell in line with the same 'narrative' a day or so following the election... so so much so... it was just weird...

including fox!

where no questions or negotiation was to be entered into whatsoever, with them all parroting the same lines...

I find this most interesting, due to the above, but also due to last minute changes to the election process that left it wide open to manipulation because of corona, amongst other things...

as I have been saying, at a time with trust levels so low... and the changes to the system so widespread... I think the least 'the establishment' (for want of a better term) could have possibly done was to investigate various claims extensively, and confirm, beyond reasonable doubt, that the election was indeed legitimate...

I honestly cannot understand why they didn't do it in such divided times... if they are so confident it was...

I think they owed that to the public at a minimum amidst such upheavel

but they didn't... they went full trigger happy the other way....

just sowing more dischord and distrust

another decision that truly beggars belief

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 12:16pm
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:

I’m 100% of the belief that the Democrats would try to steal the election if they could. Whether they did or not is not something I would have any idea about. It would not surprise me in the least if they had.

well looking at their outright fabrications over the last five years...

and control over the media

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soggydog Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 12:45pm

Been watching a great documentary series by Oliver Stone. The Untold History of the United States. It’s of history of American Imperialism which largely explains the how we got to this point in world affairs.

Another one that is relevant is Ukraine Burning. Released in 2019, also by Oliver Stone.

Currently at home with the Rona.
Boba Fett and Oliver Stone doco’s. And some trip planning/booked. Apart from a persistent cough a good week.

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 12:47pm

That’s a different question Syppo. There’s a narrative around the stolen election. Dead people, corrupted machines, lost ballot boxes. Do you believe it? There’s absolutely no proof of any of it. Been comprehensively debunked. By GOP state legislatures / electoral colleges no less.

You (and Blowie) believe that the Dems ‘would’ if they ‘could’ steal the election. Do you apply this belief to the GOP as well?

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 1:00pm

Why is the onus of proof on the ‘establishment’ proving that the election WASN’T ‘stolen’?

When the whole question is not based on fact, but on unfounded, hyperbolic accusations (since debunked)

That’s one of the most ridiculous things you’ve posted tbh.

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 1:13pm

Stolen is a too strong term to use, but there was still a lot of forces ensuring things went the way they did, but as incompetent as Biden is, its probably a good thing Trump didn't get reelected, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 1:18pm

There’s another example….

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soggydog Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 1:20pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

Stolen is a too strong term to use, but there was still a lot of forces ensuring things went the way they did, but as incompetent as Biden is, its probably a good thing Trump didn't get reelected, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

Watch Ukraine Burning.

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DudeSweetDudeSweet Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 1:34pm
etarip wrote:

That’s a different question Syppo. There’s a narrative around the stolen election. Dead people, corrupted machines, lost ballot boxes. Do you believe it? There’s absolutely no proof of any of it. Been comprehensively debunked. By GOP state legislatures / electoral colleges no less.

You (and Blowie) believe that the Dems ‘would’ if they ‘could’ steal the election. Do you apply this belief to the GOP as well?

Of course the Republicans would do the same thing. There’s a trillion dollar controlling interest of the US imperial machine at stake. It’s the most powerful and profitable cabal (mafia!) humanity has ever known. These people will do anything to be the ones wielding the power.

Didn’t One of the Bush’s basically steal the election off Al Gore or someone back in the day?

We are talking about a nation that invaded the innocent nation of Iraq under false pretences just to make money. It didn’t matter to them that hundreds of thousands of innocent people were killed and their civilisation destroyed in the process. But we’re supposed to believe it’s all a genteel, above-board process to decide who gets to act as Face of The Empire for enough years to make themselves rich beyond comprehension?

I’m sure everyone forgets their evil , greedy ways and ugly ambition because they’re are so besotted with the romantic notion of pure democracy…..lol

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sypkan Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 1:44pm

sheeesh

just when i thougt we'd found a way to be civil... you drop that one...

I don't believe the more hyperbolic claims

but I have no doubt some in power could have manipulated the system, the mail in system in particular

I honestly cannot believe you think it is beyond the democrats and the various interests opposing trump to do this

seriously, the fbi were in on amplifying clinton's steele dossier, they must have known the whole thing was fake, the pee tapes... the russian loans... the computers... 'kompromat' in general..

they were also in on burying the hunter laptop story...

yet you have this naivete and undying faith around how far these forces would not go re. the election process...

cute

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indo-dreaming Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 2:02pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

Stolen is a too strong term to use, but there was still a lot of forces ensuring things went the way they did, but as incompetent as Biden is, its probably a good thing Trump didn't get reelected, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

Watch Ukraine Burning.

No they say it wouldn't happen at all, because Trump is way too unpredictable in how he would react, hence Putin didn't invade Ukraine under Trump and waited for a change of power.

The last thing Trump would have wanted is to look weak, he could have started world war 3 by now by supporting Ukraine by air or he might have not gotten invloved at all and made some excuse even supported Russia nobody really knows.

Ironically that unpredictable aspect prevented Putin from invading Ukraine when Trump was in, while Biden is much more predictable and seen as weak, but in a way thats good for us as he isnt going to start world war 3.

Its like picking a fight, its easy to pick a fight with someone that you know won't react or isn't going to pull a knife on you etc. but you would never pick a fight with someone who doesn't care for consequences and would even stab you with no second thoughts.

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 2:12pm

I think the electoral process is manipulated. And all sides do it.

But it generally happens in much more prosaic ways. Gerrymandering, access to polling stations, voter regulation changes.

It’s the unheralded benefit of our AEC.

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soggydog Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 2:22pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

Stolen is a too strong term to use, but there was still a lot of forces ensuring things went the way they did, but as incompetent as Biden is, its probably a good thing Trump didn't get reelected, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

Watch Ukraine Burning.

No they say it wouldn't happen at all, because Trump is way too unpredictable in how he would react, hence Putin didn't invade Ukraine under Trump and waited for a change of power.

The last thing Trump would have wanted is to look weak, he could have started world war 3 by now by supporting Ukraine by air or he might have not gotten invloved at all and made some excuse even supported Russia nobody really knows.

Ironically that unpredictable aspect prevented Putin from invading Ukraine when Trump was in, while Biden is much more predictable and seen as weak, but in a way thats good for us as he isnt going to start world war 3.

Its like picking a fight, its easy to pick a fight with someone that you know won't react or isn't going to pull a knife on you etc. but you would never pick a fight with someone who doesn't care for consequences and would even stab you with no second thoughts.

Have you watched it, interviews with Putin and the ousted Ukraine President. In depth investigation prior to the Russia invasion post Made(?) protests/massacre.

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soggydog Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 2:44pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

Stolen is a too strong term to use, but there was still a lot of forces ensuring things went the way they did, but as incompetent as Biden is, its probably a good thing Trump didn't get reelected, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

Watch Ukraine Burning.

No they say it wouldn't happen at all, because Trump is way too unpredictable in how he would react, hence Putin didn't invade Ukraine under Trump and waited for a change of power.

The last thing Trump would have wanted is to look weak, he could have started world war 3 by now by supporting Ukraine by air or he might have not gotten invloved at all and made some excuse even supported Russia nobody really knows.

Ironically that unpredictable aspect prevented Putin from invading Ukraine when Trump was in, while Biden is much more predictable and seen as weak, but in a way thats good for us as he isnt going to start world war 3.

Its like picking a fight, its easy to pick a fight with someone that you know won't react or isn't going to pull a knife on you etc. but you would never pick a fight with someone who doesn't care for consequences and would even stab you with no second thoughts.

Have you watched it, interviews with Putin and the ousted Ukraine President. In depth investigation prior to the Russia invasion post Made(?) protests/massacre.

It also covers the Biden’s interest in Ukraine natural gas, so I think that puts paid to your assertion that Biden is weak.

Worth a watch for a broader insight. I’ve got a lot of admiration for Oliver Stone as a Historian and Documentarian.

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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 4:00pm
indo-dreaming wrote:

, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

Which experts Indo? Got any sources for it?

I’ve seen partisan punditry espousing that, but not a lot of expert analysis.

(FWIW, I think foreign policy was Biden’s biggest flaw as VP. Still not convinced that he’s nailing that element as President)

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adam12 Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 6:00pm

"FWIW, I think foreign policy was Biden’s biggest flaw as VP. Still not convinced that he’s nailing that element as President) "
Well they predicted Ukraine when even Zelensky didn't believe Putin would do it, and they were ready. Put NATO back together bigger than ever after Trump tried to destroy it.
Had Trump been in power neither of those things would have happened, Zelensky, and his family and Government would be dead now and a Russian puppet would be running Ukraine. Trump would have let Ukraine suffer for not backing his bullshit on Biden during the election, and left NATO at risk of further Russian expansion. Biden is doing ok.

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soggydog Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 8:16pm
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etarip Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 8:24pm
adam12 wrote:

"FWIW, I think foreign policy was Biden’s biggest flaw as VP. Still not convinced that he’s nailing that element as President) "
Well they predicted Ukraine when even Zelensky didn't believe Putin would do it, and they were ready. Put NATO back together bigger than ever after Trump tried to destroy it.
Had Trump been in power neither of those things would have happened, Zelensky, and his family and Government would be dead now and a Russian puppet would be running Ukraine. Trump would have let Ukraine suffer for not backing his bullshit on Biden during the election, and left NATO at risk of further Russian expansion. Biden is doing ok.

You’re right. It’s chalk and cheese between the last administration and this one. I hope Biden learned from his VP mistakes, particularly Iraq c2011. He’s not failing, but I’m not giving him an A either.

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wax24 Saturday, 2 Jul 2022 at 10:22pm

Pelosi picked 8 members of the cmte. 7 Democrats and 1 Republican. McCarthy had 5 picks. 2 of his picks are individuals who may well be indicted in the future for their participation. Having those two members would've destroyed the integrity of the investigation. Ya don't don't let the potential criminals participate in the investigation. So, she refused those two. Told McCarthy he could find 2 different ones to get his 5. His response was to pull all of his picks. He played a game of political chicken and lost. Nearly all of the witnesses have come from Trump's orbit. His people. His family. The people who most want to defend Trump, and were there and have info have plead the 5th. They have had their chance and have decided to throw it away. Now, Trump is calling it a "witch hunt" and saying basically what Sypkan has been saying here. He could've participated in it and told his side. He can now. But, he prefers to talk through friendly media, where he can control the info/narrative. I took Critical Thinking in high school, and again in college. I need none of those skills to see all this for what it is. Innocent people don't plead the 5th. Innocent people don't don't cry witch hunt. Innocent people don't ask for pardons. I would ask some people to pull their heads outta asses (both here and my orbit), but they would do some version of putting their hands on their ears and screaming "la, la, la." Feverish people aren't reasonable people. And zealots don't seek truth. And the wheels on the bus go round and round.

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JQ Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 11:54am
sypkan wrote:

sheeesh

just when i thougt we'd found a way to be civil... you drop that one...

I don't believe the more hyperbolic claims

but I have no doubt some in power could have manipulated the system, the mail in system in particular

I honestly cannot believe you think it is beyond the democrats and the various interests opposing trump to do this

seriously, the fbi were in on amplifying clinton's steele dossier, they must have known the whole thing was fake, the pee tapes... the russian loans... the computers... 'kompromat' in general..

they were also in on burying the hunter laptop story...

yet you have this naivete and undying faith around how far these forces would not go re. the election process...

cute

You don't believe the more hyperbolic claims? Yet here you are spouting nonsense about how Nancy Pelosi needs to answer 'questions' about the national guard response.

She doesn't have the power to control the national guard response, if you actually looked into some of the things you believe, this would quickly be revealed to you.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pelosi-national-guard-capitol/

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/13/sean-hannity/no-eviden...

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-235651652542

Bit rich for you to spout off about narratives, naivete and undying faith when you swallow this conspiracy theorist nonsense. Given how much you harp on about narratives media manipulation etc, you should be pretty embarrassed by how easily you are led astray. I guess you are just that desperate for these hearings to be ineffectual, for your narrative to be sustained.

Also, civility requires some acceptance of a common reality, it's not really possible when you're running on alternative facts.

etarip's picture
etarip's picture
etarip Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 12:28pm

I’m going to go back to what I said. I think it was civil - and squarely aimed at what you said, not who you are:

You wrote (in part):
“I think the least 'the establishment' (for want of a better term) could have possibly done was to investigate various claims extensively, and confirm, beyond reasonable doubt, that the election was indeed legitimate...“

To which I replied:
“ Why is the onus of proof on the ‘establishment’ proving that the election WASN’T ‘stolen’?
When the whole question is not based on fact, but on unfounded, hyperbolic accusations (since debunked)
That’s one of the most ridiculous things you’ve posted tbh.”

Didn’t mean to be discourteous or uncivil. I still think it’s a ridiculous proposition, especially when the claim is largely based on Trump’s butthurtedness and soundly rejected across the board.

I’ve certainly got no beef with you personally, and I’m sure over a beer we’d have a great yarn. That’s honestly how i feel about most people on this forum. You’re interested and engaged. I don’t agree with some of your points / perspectives but you don’t usually play the man either.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 1:44pm
etarip wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

, although a lot of experts suggest Ukraine wouldn't have happened under Trump

I guess we will never know.

Which experts Indo? Got any sources for it?

I’ve seen partisan punditry espousing that, but not a lot of expert analysis.

(FWIW, I think foreign policy was Biden’s biggest flaw as VP. Still not convinced that he’s nailing that element as President)

It was mentioned in articles and podcast around the time it all started, and not just by people with a recent interest in it all, one of the best podcast/interviews was on triggernentry podcast (there was a few though)

Of course these days you always get oposing views on anything from so called expert's especially as some people like to paint Trump as always bad no matter what, you see that here too.

End of the day we don't know what would have happened if Trump was reelected, but we do know it didnt happen under Trump but did under Biden.

People can over analysis things but really much of it is basic and simple common sense, both Trump and Putin are loose and unpredictable and would do anything to avoid being made to look weak they are cut from the same cloth and hence kind of respected each others unpredictable nature and ironically it kept peace for a while.

Meanwhile for Putin, Biden was a complete gift a very predictable weak old bumbling man.

What's more of a surprise is that Putin didn't act sooner.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 3:06pm

a few people getting bees in bonnet here...

just to be clear, I started this little conversation about the secret service 'story', ...where trump is alleged to have lunged at the steering wheel of the 'limo' driver, and attacked a secret service guy

aside from the physicalities of the story not adding up... ie. trump actually being in an SUV; do you really believe he lunged at the steering wheel from the back back presidential seat of whatever vehicle?; do you really think he put his hands at the throat of a secret service dude?; etc...

the person who allegedly 'told' this story, denies it...

and secret service dudes have supposedly denied it happened too...

now, I wouldn't have taken such issue with this story if it was presented by media with the usual careful language qualifiers such as '...it is alleged...'

...but it wasn't... it was presented with a breathless enthusiasm off the charts as fact, without even a hint of balance or qualifier... including by 'our abc'...

and still is to this moment... when other sources are saying the substance of the story evaporated within 24 hours...

reeks of misinformation 101 to me...

I guess we will see

or not...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 4:02pm

against my better judgement I'll engage wax24... who 'went low' staight off the bat...

some points;

the whole show trial is framed around a supposed organised coup by trump and co.

i find this hard to believe from the footage of the day, where the agglomoration of various nutty groups appeared if they literally couldn't believe their luck when they actually breached the capitol...

inside the capitol, it resembled a tour group, as participants took selfies, sought souvineers, and walked around aimlessly... so so aimlessly...

if it was an orgsnised 'coup de tat' ...it was a very very very poorly organised one!!

...from trump, a guy who - for whatever his faults - has proven he really can at least organise a root in a brothel...

"...Pelosi picked 8 members of the cmte. 7 Democrats and 1 Republican. McCarthy had 5 picks. 2 of his picks are individuals who may well be indicted in the future for their participation. Having those two members would've destroyed the integrity of the investigation. Ya don't don't let the potential criminals participate in the investigation. So, she refused those two. Told McCarthy he could find 2 different ones to get his 5. His response was to pull all of his picks. He played a game of political chicken and lost..."

this sounded quite reasonable... and I agreed for a minute... then my non trained critical thinking skills kicked in...

this assumes their was an organised coup... making theso called 'criminals' guilty before the trial is even held... which we don't tend to do... hopefully!

granted mccarthy played chicken and lost... but it seems neither side has played this wisely or fairly... where i read even an npr article conceding it is a bit of an own goal for the pelosi team to bar the republicans...

"...Nearly all of the witnesses have come from Trump's orbit. His people. His family. The people who most want to defend Trump, and were there and have info have plead the 5th. They have had their chance and have decided to throw it away. Now, Trump is calling it a "witch hunt" and saying basically what Sypkan has been saying here. He could've participated in it and told his side. He can now. But, he prefers to talk through friendly media, where he can control the info/narrative. I took Critical Thinking in high school, and again in college. I need none of those skills to see all this for what it is. Innocent people don't plead the 5th. Innocent people don't don't cry witch hunt. Innocent people don't ask for pardons
..."

mate, I don't blame any of them for not cooperating... the russia russia russia stuff... the 'collusion' stuff...the impeachment 1 and 11...have all come up pretty short... the russia stuff panned out to be most definitely a witch hunt...

tell me, if some one had been fabricating allegations against you for five years ...allegations that proved it was actually the other side guilty of unscrupulous behaviour when brought before the 'justice' system... would you cooperate on their ump-teenth attenpt?

impeachment 1 and 11...

there may well have been something there... but even with the whole state / political / intelligence apparatus working to convict him... they came up short...

now, democrats like to present this as some kind of win... saying stuff like.. '...a dispicable president that has been impeached twice... blah blah blah...'

well, Im sure from their 'perspective' this means something... but for a non partisan person, this generally means a failed imprachment... which equals failure... which doesn't mean innocent... but most certainly doesn't mean guilty...

democrats seem totally hung up on - and addicted to - anything at all they percieve as doing political damage to trump... anything at all! ...no matter how questionable..

and it seems this show trial is just another trip down that road

maybe they wholeheatedly believe it was a fully organised coup... and is all legit. ...as many did with the russia stuff (well their none the wiser minions anyway...) ...ffs, I believed half the russia stuff... and expected him to go down...

but he didn't...

it largely, all just turned out to be fabricated... political smear... bullshit basically...

but no doubt clinton inc. knew they could get political mileage out of it, regardless of outcome...

this little show trial just reeks of the same old play book... hype, fabrication, and smear... leveraging trump's reputation, language, and loose behaviour for all its worth... for as long as possible...

yeh there's definitely rogue, rude, and reprehensible behaviour there... but is it actually what the democrats are presenting?

we will see...

"...I would ask some people to pull their heads outta asses (both here and my orbit), but they would do some version of putting their hands on their ears and screaming "la, la, la." Feverish people aren't reasonable people. And zealots don't seek truth. And the wheels on the bus go round and round..."

'feverish...' 'zealots...'

...right back at ya champ!

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 4:14pm
JQ wrote:
sypkan wrote:

sheeesh

just when i thougt we'd found a way to be civil... you drop that one...

I don't believe the more hyperbolic claims

but I have no doubt some in power could have manipulated the system, the mail in system in particular

I honestly cannot believe you think it is beyond the democrats and the various interests opposing trump to do this

seriously, the fbi were in on amplifying clinton's steele dossier, they must have known the whole thing was fake, the pee tapes... the russian loans... the computers... 'kompromat' in general..

they were also in on burying the hunter laptop story...

yet you have this naivete and undying faith around how far these forces would not go re. the election process...

cute

You don't believe the more hyperbolic claims? Yet here you are spouting nonsense about how Nancy Pelosi needs to answer 'questions' about the national guard response.

She doesn't have the power to control the national guard response, if you actually looked into some of the things you believe, this would quickly be revealed to you.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pelosi-national-guard-capitol/

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/13/sean-hannity/no-eviden...

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-235651652542

Bit rich for you to spout off about narratives, naivete and undying faith when you swallow this conspiracy theorist nonsense. Given how much you harp on about narratives media manipulation etc, you should be pretty embarrassed by how easily you are led astray. I guess you are just that desperate for these hearings to be ineffectual, for your narrative to be sustained.

Also, civility requires some acceptance of a common reality, it's not really possible when you're running on alternative facts.

mate, I'd say the biggest question from that day is, why was the capitol so under prepared and easily overcome?

this is especially so considering the machine acknowledges they had extensive intelligence warning them of trouble...

fuck, any idiot would have bolsteted security that day if it was their responsibility

it doesn't have to be about 'conspiracy'

...but morons just keep a plugging away at this well worn out desperate catch all..

it could be just a result of break down of communication and chain of command due to a dysfuntional government situation...

which is pretty much what your own links suggest - if you could put away the prejudice, judgement and vitriol for a moment...

even with such a dysfuntional government situation... it beggars belief that no one prepared for the oh so obvious onslaught...

it also beggars belief that all these supposed 'fact checkers' cannot narrow down who was responsible for such an outrageous oversight

still!!!

wax24's picture
wax24's picture
wax24 Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 4:24pm

And there's Sypkan. Putting his hands on on his ears and screaming "la, la, la." As i had forecast. Boring.

wax24's picture
wax24's picture
wax24 Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 4:28pm

And, BTW... count how many times you have posted on this or any thread. Pick any timeframe. Then, count mine. "Right back at ya, champ," you said. Completely unaware of yourself. Keep screaming "la, la, la," because i like where it gets you. And you don't matter to me.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 3 Jul 2022 at 4:56pm

nah, you're pretty good etarip

I was trying to inject a little humour, as we were going so well... then you got a little snide... (from my perspective)

my point was the onus is on the establishment, because we were in such 'unprecednted' waters...

trump generally

corona virus

mail in votes

dubious media coverage

coming off the back of clinton questioning the legitimacy of the last election

yet this run, no such questioning was tolerated whatsoever...

all comes across as very biased and hypocrtical

very very much so, for anyone who doesn't share your perspective

people don't like hypocrisy!!

(even if they don't necessarily share the view of the seemingly unfairly treated)