The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

oxrox's picture
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oxrox Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:39am

You seriously think what she is saying is for convenience? There appears to be more than one voice. From indigenous people. Why is it discounted so quickly and easily? There needs to be a solution but to just turn a blind eye to what these people are saying will not be the solution IMO.

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Fliplid Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:43am
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:

So, we just discount what Jacinta Price has said because she is a liberal?

Not at all, but she’s just one voice.

And let’s face it. What she said is pretty convenient for some.

and seems to be inconvenient for others

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soggydog Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 10:59am
oxrox wrote:

You seriously think what she is saying is for convenience? There appears to be more than one voice. From indigenous people. Why is it discounted so quickly and easily? There needs to be a solution but to just turn a blind eye to what these people are saying will not be the solution IMO.

No I don’t think Jacinta price is wrong at all. Nor Warren Mundine.

I think a National statement changes the thinking of the nation. We can get good health care, education, historic truths told etc etc. But if the bias and prejudice is still carried by certain parts of the wider community we haven’t fixed the whole problem have we. Like treating the symptoms not the cause. With a National statement we have clear direction of where we want society to head. That’s all.

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soggydog Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 11:04am

And the statements by Jacinta and Warren are convenient for those who want to make it an aboriginal problem as opposed to an Australian problem.
You know pull your boots up and all as opposed to we’re all in this together.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 11:10am
soggydog wrote:

And the statements by Jacinta and Warren are convenient for those who want to make it an aboriginal problem as opposed to an Australian problem.
You know pull your boots up and all as opposed to we’re all in this together.

+1 to that and your above comments SD.

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sypkan Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 11:43am

stan grant just on abc...

'...there is wide support for an aboiginal voice from the wider community...'

about putting it to referendum...

'...the past election has been portrayed as large call for change...

...I don't think that's right... it was more a cathartic election than anything... evidenced by the wide spread of votes to independents and greens with no obvious winner....'

yes this!!!

so so much!

hardly anyone saying this, all the self interested 'voted ins' are seeing what they want to see...

'...a referendum needs to be a convimcing win...

...labor voted in on just 30% of primary vote gives little indication of wide support for labor agenda...

...proponents of uluru statement need to be careful to elevate the cause above the general domestic politics or it will just get bogged down in a referendum...'

yes! yes!! yes!!!!

I have little hope of labor's capacity to do this, as they are caught up in their own little well of hubris

...again...

fuelled by the suppossed "vote for change"

just like the greens, and many independents...

not saying it won't get up, or shouldn't get up

just pointing out the mechanics of it all

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sypkan Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 11:36am

"...But if the bias and prejudice is still carried by certain parts of the wider community we haven’t fixed the whole problem have we..."

and another yes! also...

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oxrox Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 11:46am

Where did Jacinta Price mention anything about pulling your socks up etc etc? I think they all are just saying what is being put forward won't solve the problem. I for one am going to listen to these people as well as the other side put forward. We are possibly going to referendum.
Mundine and Dillon put forward their broad views and Price put up a personal perspective view. These people need to be heard as well as people with opposing views to them. Indigenous views are the ones I will be listening to and they are.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 12:04pm

Yep. Important to listen to ALL voices.

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oxrox Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 1:13pm

Did the song put forward any possible solutions?

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 1:31pm

Just highlighting another side that may be a result of 200 years of dispossession @oxrox. Good to listen to as many voices as possible as pointed out above..
And yep...Not sure if you listened to it, but yeah, there was one possible solution put forward in the last couple of lines in the song by the female artist. Black Australia Policy you might call it.
And whether you like that or not (can't imagine many non indigenous would), you couldn't mount a reasonable argument of it being an unfair philosophy based on Australian history since settlers arrived.
Hence a better solution should be something we all strive towards and learn from after 200years of failed government policies as well a change in perspective from the wider Australian society. Without change, things will just keep going as they are now. It's up to all of us to be pro active in this and not sit back and let it sort itself out. And i think that includes changing perceptions on forums like this.
Cheers.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 2:53pm
Fliplid wrote:

Indo said"-Education
-Employment
-Health care
-Cultural change & true truth telling."

Isn't this a start?

This mirrors what other indigenous leaders have been calling for. It's one thing to get some type of formal recognition but unless that is followed up with practical solutions nothing will really change.

"Currently, we have 10 entities working on the ground with the people of Cape York and Cairns to break the cycle of disadvantage.
This work includes creating pathways to all forms of education, meaningful employment, leadership opportunities, cultural preservation and healthcare."

https://capeyorkpartnership.org.au/about-us/

100% thats the exact type of thing needed, actually looks like a good positive program aimed at dealing with real problems and focused on the right areas.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 2:54pm
oxrox wrote:

Where did Jacinta Price mention anything about pulling your socks up etc etc? I think they all are just saying what is being put forward won't solve the problem. I for one am going to listen to these people as well as the other side put forward. We are possibly going to referendum.
Mundine and Dillon put forward their broad views and Price put up a personal perspective view. These people need to be heard as well as people with opposing views to them. Indigenous views are the ones I will be listening to and they are.

+1

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soggydog Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 3:04pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Fliplid wrote:

Indo said"-Education
-Employment
-Health care
-Cultural change & true truth telling."

Isn't this a start?

This mirrors what other indigenous leaders have been calling for. It's one thing to get some type of formal recognition but unless that is followed up with practical solutions nothing will really change.

"Currently, we have 10 entities working on the ground with the people of Cape York and Cairns to break the cycle of disadvantage.
This work includes creating pathways to all forms of education, meaningful employment, leadership opportunities, cultural preservation and healthcare."

https://capeyorkpartnership.org.au/about-us/

100% thats the exact type of thing needed, actually looks like a good positive program aimed at dealing with real problems and focused on the right areas.

My point was that all of the above are essential programs for better life outcomes for people who are disadvantaged.
But without a nationally recognised idea of what an egalitarian society should be have we addressed the drivers that got us to this discussion in the first place. And that is racism.

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GuySmiley Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 3:11pm

Price is one voice. Giving her prominence beyond that is like giving the 1% of climate change denying scientists equal prominence to the 99%.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 3:59pm
GuySmiley wrote:

Price is one voice. Giving her prominence beyond that is like giving the 1% of climate change denying scientists equal prominence to the 99%.

What garbage Price is the real deal, she isn't some try hard know it all from the city with zero experience on the matters she talks about, she has grown up in remote communities with huge issues and suffered physical and mental abuse from her x indigenous husband and even had family members die from.the result of violence in these communities.

There is no one more experienced to talk on the matters she does.

FFS

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GuySmiley Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 4:28pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

Price is one voice. Giving her prominence beyond that is like giving the 1% of climate change denying scientists equal prominence to the 99%.

What garbage Price is the real deal, she isn't some try hard know it all from the city with zero experience on the matters she talks about, she has grown up in remote communities with huge issues and suffered physical and mental abuse from her x indigenous husband and even had family members die from.the result of violence in these communities.

There is no one more experienced to talk on the matters she does.

FFS

Not denying her voice nor life experience, but the last time I looked into her “mob credentials” the cupboard was bare. Her mob have disowned her so she represents nobody so as I said one voice nothing more and the rest is bullshit.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 4:41pm
GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

Price is one voice. Giving her prominence beyond that is like giving the 1% of climate change denying scientists equal prominence to the 99%.

What garbage Price is the real deal, she isn't some try hard know it all from the city with zero experience on the matters she talks about, she has grown up in remote communities with huge issues and suffered physical and mental abuse from her x indigenous husband and even had family members die from.the result of violence in these communities.

There is no one more experienced to talk on the matters she does.

FFS

Not denying her voice nor life experience, but the last time I looked into her “mob credentials” the cupboard was bare. Her mob have disowned her so she represents nobody so as I said one voice nothing more and the rest is bullshit.

Which would be no surprise as she tells it how it is and many don't like to face hard truths, especially the men.

Anyway she has won a seat in the senate

"Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, Country Liberal Senator for Northern Territory."

So expect to hear more reported on her and hopefully she will lock horns with that complete clown Lidia Thorpe.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 5:23pm

Has Jacinta got a billboard pic of her in New York yet? Or played at the Sydney Opera House (admittedly outside but it holds a bigger crowd).
Well this chick has although you probably haven't heard of her.
Earlier i posted about understandng perspective and allowing yourself to listen to gain a greater perspective. This video here, is an hour long. But very worthy of your time if you really want to hear some different voices...from the voices.
Jacinta Price is just another voice in the melting pot of those to be heard. I truly hope those advocating her can stop and listen to another voice....from the same mob....with similar experiences.
I had tears in my eyes at 10mins. The real stuff starts at the 26min mark if you want a good education for life as an Indigenous Australian in Australia.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 5:24pm

Oh and by the way, she's the girl from the rap video posted earlier today...just for a little perspective.....

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GuySmiley Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 6:09pm

So in other words @info she will be telling her mob what’s good for them, jeez only 200 years of that approach hasn’t worked so what’s a few more, one voice no more

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Cockee Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:35pm

Strange how refugees come here and become successful very quickly yet all we hear from many of those with a little (if any) indigenous blood is how life is so hard and how white people drag them down. How convenient to ignore those like Buddy Franklin on $1m a year or the recently appointed indigenous Supreme Court judge who seem to have risen to great heights despite the white man's efforts to destroy them.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:50pm

Understandable perspective from someone on the outside looking in Cockee...but you're on the inside looking in. Did you watch the vid i posted above? I'd recommend it highly.
Spoiler alert: the girl in it has become a hugely successful rapper despite going to prison, ice addiction and having to push back against the long ingrained white australia policy. But yeah, buddy franklin.
Really hope you watch it if you can spare an hour for our indigenous brothers and sisters.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:53pm

If i could pose a question to all. And I'm loving seeing a good conversation here.
What would be the one significant change you think would help unite the indigenous/non indigenous people of this country right now..with all that we know??
Just one. Keep it succinct.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 7:57pm

I'll get the ball rolling. An Aboriginal flag (whatever that may be) as our national flag to the world to represent all Australians. Fuck this British bullshit off. Unless you're a royalist. We are living on Aboriginal land. That would be my first step forward to acknowledge our place and our heirarchy on this land.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:07pm

btw Buddy Franklin, Jacinta Price, Warren Mundine and even fucken Anthony Mundine,....haven't had their pics on a billboard in NY. Not that that means anything...or does it. The lovely lady above whom i posted a vid of has however, so surely worth at least tapping through to the 26min mark to listen to her story.....

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Robwilliams Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:57pm

Cockee and Indo, some of your comments are highly insensitive and inflammatory and in no way constructive. I understand you have a different view but maybe the issues that you degrade whilst presenting a your ideas would be better left unsaid.

If you can't resist can you put your real name forth. In the real world you and I know you would be dealt with swiftly. Public accountability. If it's the reaction you are looking for you got it, you always get it.

You don't have to prove anything more other than you are happy to be judged publicly for your comments. What are you afraid of. Having your throat cut and being buried face down in a un marked grave? You are quite happy to demean others whilst remaining invisible. It speaks volumes especially when discussing sensitive issues. You play safe and anyone can play safe and be divisive. No accountability at all. But maybe thats just your game? Basic respect has never been a weakness.

Paul regarding your question I believe as white Australian there is no harm in listening, Its a start and I might just learn something regarding my country from a different point of view I have little insight of. I don't believe that a bad thing at all. In doing so I learn and become far more connected with my country and its overall beginnings and growth (through knowledge). It is a chance to see Australia from a culture that is truly Australian. Be it to do with people or the environment.

Becoming aware of indigenous people footprint has taught me more about the places I go, how they have changed. And possibly where we can go. Im a grateful of those who have shown me what they can. I'm better for it and more connected to past, present and future. I'm happy to be labeled woke but am in no way ignorant.

For me personally I see aboriginal people as the true founding heart of our country. The connection they have spirituality with their land resonates with me. I often think how environmentally beautiful Australia must have been before the colonisation and of the cultural aspects i have read or been taught about. Especially in our wilderness areas. I know I can only understand through listening reading or being shown. Otherwise i'm just walking ignorant to what has walked before me. For better or worse. Right or wrong. I am truly grateful and better for it as with any culture.

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:16pm

Apologies. Start the vid from 28mins 40secs exactly. I'd recommend all Australians listen to this. Here is where the answers begin.
Will post vid again for those that missed it.

&t=1801s

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Paul McD Sunday, 29 May 2022 at 8:17pm

Well said @RobWilliams. Well said.

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Fliplid Monday, 30 May 2022 at 7:20am

soggydog “But without a nationally recognised idea of what an egalitarian society should be have we addressed the drivers that got us to this discussion in the first place.”

If that is how it all works out then it would be a good outcome. Can’t but help remembering that the stolen generation apology was meant to fix everything as well so let’s hope that this time round there is a better outcome

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indo-dreaming Monday, 30 May 2022 at 4:12pm
GuySmiley wrote:

So in other words @info she will be telling her mob what’s good for them, jeez only 200 years of that approach hasn’t worked so what’s a few more, one voice no more

Jacinta is a strong indigenous women who stands up and highlights the issues and calls for people (generally men) to take ownership of their problems and too bring change from within, instead of blaming others and expecting fair dust solutions.

Obviously it's not a popular opinion especially among men she is basically pointing the finger at them and calling them out. (noting that its not all men only a percentage, so lets not tar them all with the same brush)

Many Indigenous women support her, but you would expect many would also fear to support her.

Her view and approach especially from an Indigenous women is not at all a 200 year approach, it's the complete opposite, she is ahead of her time and a brave pioneer of change.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 30 May 2022 at 4:24pm
Robwilliams wrote:

What are you afraid of. Having your throat cut and being buried face down in a un marked grave?

If you dont agree with my views (or the ones ive shared from Indigenous people Jacinta, Anthony, Warren) then fine either ignore them or debate them in a civil manner with me, but these kind of comments make you sound like a complete nut case, and this ridiculous uncalled for extreme comment borders on being a threat or at least the aim seems to intimate me/silence me, of which i wont be.

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GuySmiley Monday, 30 May 2022 at 4:25pm

" ... but these kind of comments make you sound like a complete nut case,..... " Oh the irony, richer than a an extra large serve of plum pudding with lashings of custard and cream.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 30 May 2022 at 4:38pm
GuySmiley wrote:

.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

Technically it's not a gender issue but that said the majority of violence is either between men, or by men towards women and children, same with rape or sexual abuse, suicide dont know the stats but i wouldn't be surprised if men are represented higher.

In regard to self determination, it should be noted the greatest issues are seen in communities with high levels of self governance in many ways compared to elsewhere.

BTW. Jacinta is elected to the senate she is there to represent the people, or at least those that voted for her, so sorry you are wrong, she represents far more people than 99.9% of the population ever will.

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soggydog Monday, 30 May 2022 at 4:55pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

Technically it's not a gender issue but that said the majority of violence is either between men, or by men towards women and children, same with rape or sexual abuse, suicide dont know the stats but i wouldn't be surprised if men are represented higher.

In regard to self determination, it should be noted the greatest issues are seen in communities with high levels of self governance in many ways compared to elsewhere.

BTW. Jacinta is elected to the senate she is there to represent the people, or at least those that voted for her, so sorry you are wrong.

That’s the problem Indo, you get hung up on a point and every other post that isn’t as vapid as Cockee’s is seen as an argument from the opposition. Yes we heard Jacinta and agreed that she is one voice amongst many but you still haven’t addressed my point that you are presenting this as an aboriginal problem in isolation of the years of institutional racism as opposed to a national problem that has stemmed from this. Treatment of the symptom as opposed to addressing the root cause.

Change the way people think then address the symptoms of poor thought.

Your way is pretty much just an extension of the racism that got us to this discussion in the first place.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 30 May 2022 at 5:23pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

Technically it's not a gender issue but that said the majority of violence is either between men, or by men towards women and children, same with rape or sexual abuse, suicide dont know the stats but i wouldn't be surprised if men are represented higher.

In regard to self determination, it should be noted the greatest issues are seen in communities with high levels of self governance in many ways compared to elsewhere.

BTW. Jacinta is elected to the senate she is there to represent the people, or at least those that voted for her, so sorry you are wrong.

That’s the problem Indo, you get hung up on a point and every other post that isn’t as vapid as Cockee’s is seen as an argument from the opposition. Yes we heard Jacinta and agreed that she is one voice amongst many but you still haven’t addressed my point that you are presenting this as an aboriginal problem in isolation of the years of institutional racism as opposed to a national problem that has stemmed from this. Treatment of the symptom as opposed to addressing the root cause.

Change the way people think then address the symptoms of poor thought.

Your way is pretty much just an extension of the racism that got us to this discussion in the first place.

Im not sure how to take your comments, are you suggesting all these problems are a result of past racism??

Papuans in PNG suffer very similar problems on similar scales do you also believe their problems are linked to racism??

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Robwilliams Monday, 30 May 2022 at 5:51pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Robwilliams wrote:

What are you afraid of. Having your throat cut and being buried face down in a un marked grave?

If you dont agree with my views (or the ones ive shared from Indigenous people Jacinta, Anthony, Warren) then fine either ignore them or debate them in a civil manner with me, but these kind of comments make you sound like a complete nut case, and this ridiculous uncalled for extreme comment borders on being a threat or at least the aim seems to intimate me/silence me, of which i wont be.

I asked you what you are afraid of in regards to anonymity. Cry me a fucking river. No accountability at all. I'm beyond nuts I sit just inside the gates of hell. Patiently waiting for your arrival. ;)

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Robwilliams Monday, 30 May 2022 at 6:00pm

Drinking champagne. Smoking cigars and eating caviar. Please bring some sauce.

Paul McD's picture
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Paul McD Monday, 30 May 2022 at 6:10pm
soggydog's picture
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soggydog Monday, 30 May 2022 at 6:29pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

Technically it's not a gender issue but that said the majority of violence is either between men, or by men towards women and children, same with rape or sexual abuse, suicide dont know the stats but i wouldn't be surprised if men are represented higher.

In regard to self determination, it should be noted the greatest issues are seen in communities with high levels of self governance in many ways compared to elsewhere.

BTW. Jacinta is elected to the senate she is there to represent the people, or at least those that voted for her, so sorry you are wrong.

That’s the problem Indo, you get hung up on a point and every other post that isn’t as vapid as Cockee’s is seen as an argument from the opposition. Yes we heard Jacinta and agreed that she is one voice amongst many but you still haven’t addressed my point that you are presenting this as an aboriginal problem in isolation of the years of institutional racism as opposed to a national problem that has stemmed from this. Treatment of the symptom as opposed to addressing the root cause.

Change the way people think then address the symptoms of poor thought.

Your way is pretty much just an extension of the racism that got us to this discussion in the first place.

Im not sure how to take your comments, are you suggesting all these problems are a result of past racism??

Papuans in PNG suffer very similar problems on similar scales do you also believe their problems are linked to racism??

That’s equivocation Indo, what ethnicity is the prime minister of PNG? Is he Anglo Saxon? Did they have laws passed that prevented them from work or owning property, voting or other such human rights. Aboriginal people in Australia have.
You are not addressing this past only the symptoms of the problem that stemmed from racism. Or do you believe that domestic and sexual violence is wholly a cultural issue and not a symptom of 200 years of disenfranchisement?

ie. you think that if we can make those “black savages stop raping and bashing all indigenous issues will be fixed”. Because that’s what it sounds like

Robwilliams's picture
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Robwilliams Monday, 30 May 2022 at 6:33pm

Ohh and a little salt.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Monday, 30 May 2022 at 6:41pm
Robwilliams wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Robwilliams wrote:

What are you afraid of. Having your throat cut and being buried face down in a un marked grave?

If you dont agree with my views (or the ones ive shared from Indigenous people Jacinta, Anthony, Warren) then fine either ignore them or debate them in a civil manner with me, but these kind of comments make you sound like a complete nut case, and this ridiculous uncalled for extreme comment borders on being a threat or at least the aim seems to intimate me/silence me, of which i wont be.

I asked you what you are afraid of in regards to anonymity. Cry me a fucking river. No accountability at all. I'm beyond nuts I sit just inside the gates of hell. Patiently waiting for your arrival. ;)

Afraid of anonymity.?

If you havent noticed pretty much every user here does not use their real name, when the issue has been talked about ive said clearly id have no issue with a system where users had to use their real name.

There is nothing here i say that i wouldn't say with my real name.

Anyway im not caged like some here, im open about where i live and field of work and its very easy to put two and two together and work out who i am and quite a few have, so if there is some crazy nutter out there that is going to, cut my throat and bury me face down in a un marked grave, for having an opinion/view they dont agree with, well im fucked and better update my will tonight.

BTW. Im honestly curious what post or view exactly you have such an issue with to say such weird things?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Monday, 30 May 2022 at 6:41pm
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

Technically it's not a gender issue but that said the majority of violence is either between men, or by men towards women and children, same with rape or sexual abuse, suicide dont know the stats but i wouldn't be surprised if men are represented higher.

In regard to self determination, it should be noted the greatest issues are seen in communities with high levels of self governance in many ways compared to elsewhere.

BTW. Jacinta is elected to the senate she is there to represent the people, or at least those that voted for her, so sorry you are wrong.

That’s the problem Indo, you get hung up on a point and every other post that isn’t as vapid as Cockee’s is seen as an argument from the opposition. Yes we heard Jacinta and agreed that she is one voice amongst many but you still haven’t addressed my point that you are presenting this as an aboriginal problem in isolation of the years of institutional racism as opposed to a national problem that has stemmed from this. Treatment of the symptom as opposed to addressing the root cause.

Change the way people think then address the symptoms of poor thought.

Your way is pretty much just an extension of the racism that got us to this discussion in the first place.

Im not sure how to take your comments, are you suggesting all these problems are a result of past racism??

Papuans in PNG suffer very similar problems on similar scales do you also believe their problems are linked to racism??

That’s equivocation Indo, what ethnicity is the prime minister of PNG? Is he Anglo Saxon? Did they have laws passed that prevented them from work or owning property, voting or other such human rights. Aboriginal people in Australia have.
You are not addressing this past only the symptoms of the problem that stemmed from racism. Or do you believe that domestic and sexual violence is wholly a cultural issue and not a symptom of 200 years of disenfranchisement?

ie. you think that if we can make those “black savages stop raping and bashing all indigenous issues will be fixed”. Because that’s what it sounds like

You didn't answer the question.

Why do think the root cause of issues in both countries is different?

Can you tell me why PNG has these issues too??

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley Monday, 30 May 2022 at 7:27pm

hey @info when are off to indo?asking for a friend

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Monday, 30 May 2022 at 7:30pm

Jeez fellas, it’s so easy.
As Eugenics Dreaming keeps pointing out, all you gotta do is add more milk to the coffee!

Robwilliams's picture
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Robwilliams Monday, 30 May 2022 at 8:29pm

Update your will. It will change nothing for either both you or I. Showing a little solidarity and restraint on some of the issues you adamantly raise in concern for basic respect would.

If you can't so be it. I can't teach you that. Neither can satan. Some of your views don't bring Australian's closer together and that's fine from your point and others alike. You fundamentally believe in what you put out there hence why I am critical of you.

I see very little positivity or empathy in your comments in most regard. Healthy for you but not others. People like you shape the world others live in. Wokenism and tokenism is out the door. I don't respect that just as you find yourself a victim of a few of my miss interpreted words. Sending love and less stress.

best wishes rob and satan.

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Monday, 30 May 2022 at 9:15pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:

.

@info, sure men in all communities regardless of race or social status commit serious acts of violence against women BUT what we are talking about IS NOT a gender issue its about Aboriginal communities having THEIR voice and not having one imposed on them by someone who doesn't represent them nor anyone else except her self. Self determination isn't some throw away line @info, its fundamental.

Technically it's not a gender issue but that said the majority of violence is either between men, or by men towards women and children, same with rape or sexual abuse, suicide dont know the stats but i wouldn't be surprised if men are represented higher.

In regard to self determination, it should be noted the greatest issues are seen in communities with high levels of self governance in many ways compared to elsewhere.

BTW. Jacinta is elected to the senate she is there to represent the people, or at least those that voted for her, so sorry you are wrong.

That’s the problem Indo, you get hung up on a point and every other post that isn’t as vapid as Cockee’s is seen as an argument from the opposition. Yes we heard Jacinta and agreed that she is one voice amongst many but you still haven’t addressed my point that you are presenting this as an aboriginal problem in isolation of the years of institutional racism as opposed to a national problem that has stemmed from this. Treatment of the symptom as opposed to addressing the root cause.

Change the way people think then address the symptoms of poor thought.

Your way is pretty much just an extension of the racism that got us to this discussion in the first place.

Im not sure how to take your comments, are you suggesting all these problems are a result of past racism??

Papuans in PNG suffer very similar problems on similar scales do you also believe their problems are linked to racism??

That’s equivocation Indo, what ethnicity is the prime minister of PNG? Is he Anglo Saxon? Did they have laws passed that prevented them from work or owning property, voting or other such human rights. Aboriginal people in Australia have.
You are not addressing this past only the symptoms of the problem that stemmed from racism. Or do you believe that domestic and sexual violence is wholly a cultural issue and not a symptom of 200 years of disenfranchisement?

ie. you think that if we can make those “black savages stop raping and bashing all indigenous issues will be fixed”. Because that’s what it sounds like

You didn't answer the question.

Why do think the root cause of issues in both countries is different?

Can you tell me why PNG has these issues too??

I’m not the one equivocating, that’s you who is quite clearly stating that increased melonin in the skin also increases the propensity for domestic violence and sexual assault.

My belief is if you spend 200 years systematically dehumanising, demonising, executing, incarcerating, bashing, raping and marginalising a population how can you possibly point your finger at them now and say “that is a social problem more endemic to black people”.

Why do I think the root cause is different? I don’t know, but I sure as fuck wouldn’t say PNG natives are savage rapists so by default:colour of skin so would aboriginal men be. That sort of racial profiling is what I see as the problem.

What I’ve been talking about is changing everyone’s way of thinking. So things like being of a certain skin colour doesn’t profile you to be more fuckin’ rapey.

Man I don’t know what to say. Really once I broke down what you just said. Nothing could be more offensive in regard to this subject

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seeds Monday, 30 May 2022 at 9:27pm

Hit the nail on the head Soggydog!

Paul McD's picture
Paul McD's picture
Paul McD Monday, 30 May 2022 at 10:01pm

Well said @soggydog.
Mind baffles.
Indo and reconciliation week...like peaches and cream...like.....coffee and err...milk (and lots of it!) as pointed out above.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Tuesday, 31 May 2022 at 9:27am

@ Soggy dog DONT YOU DARE TRY TO PAINT ME AS SUGGESTING ITS ABOUT SKIN COLOUR OR HOW MUCH MELANIN AN ENTHIC GROUP HAS, ITS NOT!!!

You clearly are not paying attention.

THIS IS ABOUT CULTURE, SOME OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD HAVE DARK SKIN AND MOST ARE PEACE LOVING PEOPLE.

What PNG and Australia original peoples have in common is roots style cultures that were isolated from the rest of the world for thousands of years, then suddenly flung into a new world among cultures that had been reformed over long periods of time.

This change can not suddenly happen overnight especially when groups remain isolated from the wider community so its not at all surprising remote communities have higher rates of violence even in PNG some rates of violence and fighting is worst in remote highland areas.

Both cultures have highly patriarchal cultures because the culture has not changed much for thousands of years, and pretty much all cultures started out highly patriarchal and we still have the remnants of this even in our society

They started out like this because physical strength was power and often the best hunter the best fighter or protector was the most respected, as we know women were often seen as lower and objects of men (sadly some still see women in this way)

Cultures just like people when they interact with each other in a positive way, generally through trade reform they adapt and change, hence why a country like Indonesia that has a very long history of colonisation doesn't have these issues at such high rates because its culture has reformed through high levels of wide spread trade over hundreds of years or more.

This is no different to people, we are reformed through interaction with a wide group of people with different views this helps us evolve our views and way we see and treat others.

See post below for examples of how important culture is for success, and evidence of melanin not being a factor in success.

BTW. One thing to note, im not suggesting the high level of violence currently seen was always this high it wasn't, there is factors that are adding fuel to these things, like lack of purpose and boredom where once this was not the case as there was purpose, surviving, hunting, gathering and travelling from spot to spot (producing a healthy mind and body) and in the past they did not have access to large amounts of alcohol they do now. (technically some groups did produce alcohol but you would imagine more a treat)

indo-dreaming wrote:
AndyM wrote:

It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.

So what are your thoughts on eugenics?

I will answer your question but i expect you to try to answer mine in return. (EDIT: it never happened , i didn't even get a reply to this)

Eugenics, well firstly just by asking this you clearly dont understand where Im coming from.

I dont believe any ethic group is better or smarter than the other, this isn't about DNA or ethnicity or skin colour it's about culture.

For instance Asians in most multicultural developed countries are generally the highest achievers in regard to education and even often income, it's not genetics though it's culture, a culture of discipline and expectation from parents/family to achieve ect.

They are also the lowest represented in the criminal justice system in most multicultural developed countries, again this comes down to culture and family expectations etc

Other cultural factors that provide them an advantage in many areas is a higher chance of having both parents and a strong family unit (very low divorce rate)

And it's not about wealth levels, even poor newly arrived Asian immigrants children have shown to excel in areas like education and go on to be high achievers in other areas.

Other than Asians in most multicultural developed countries you can see cultural based success from other groups like Indians or even Nigerians who often top the list

Nigerians are the interesting one being one group from a much larger continent of ethnic groups that to outsiders like us we often lump all together as just Africans, im not sure about in Australia but in the USA and UK they are also one of highest achieving groups both in education and income.

The opposite is true of many ethic groups in all developed countries because of cultural elements many groups under achieve in education and employment and have high levels of single parents and family breakdowns and highly represented in criminal justice system (Why? the exact opposite of cultural success, poor cultural elements)

The problems seen in PNG are obviously a result of culture and it's hard to argue over wise, however i have no doubt that if the English had also settled in PNG in the same way they had Australia all these problems would be blamed on colonisation etc which is just lazy claptrap.

"