The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
I don’t quite understand what you’re saying Rob.
Regarding texts posted. Read like a free for all in the approach expressed. Culture or location of the job?
And the responsibility already taken on in regards to the issues that may be faced with in job.
Regarding pictures of texts Constance posted.
Hmmm. Without knowing the whole story, best to hold off on judgement, but this, on the surface, does not sound good.
https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/heat-on-hawks-kennett-after-rioli-claims-...
Stoked on an ALP win tonight. But it shouldn't overshadow that the ALP are just the current caretakers under a system that disallowed the original inhabitants of Australia to hold sovereinty of their own land for the last 200 plus years.. This country belongs to indigenous Australians. This election just amplifies all that is wrong with the soul of this country.
Really looking forward to seeing the Uluru statement unfold.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluru_Statement_from_the_Heart through political action.
Government follow-up
The Joint Select Committee on Constitutional Recognition relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples was appointed in March 2018, co-chaired by Senator Patrick Dodson and Julian Leeser MP and comprising six Lower House and four Upper House representatives. It presented its final report on 29 November 2018. There were four recommendations in the report:[45]
In order to achieve a design for The Voice that best suits the needs and aspirations of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, the Committee recommends that the Australian Government initiate a process of co-design with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
The Committee recommends that, following a process of co-design, the Australian Government consider, in a deliberate and timely manner, legislative, executive and constitutional options to establish The Voice.
The Committee recommends that the Australian Government support the process of truth-telling.
The Committee also recommends that the Australian Government consider the establishment, in Canberra, of a National Resting Place, for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander remains which could be a place of commemoration, healing and reflection.
The first recommendation, that of creating an Indigenous voice to government via "co-design process", was set in train by the establishment of the Senior Advisory Group (SAG), announced by Minister for Indigenous Australians Ken Wyatt in October 2019. The Senior Advisory Group is co-chaired by Professor Tom Calma AO, Chancellor of the University of Canberra, and Professor Dr Marcia Langton, Associate Provost at the University of Melbourne, and comprises a total of 20 leaders and experts from across the country.[46] The government also said it would run a referendum during its present term about recognising Indigenous people in the constitution "should a consensus be reached and should it be likely to succeed".[47] By March 2020 (around the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic in Australia), the two other groups, National and Local and Regional, had been set up and had met at least once.[48] [49]
In May 2021, South Australian Premier Steven Marshall announced his Government's intention to create the nation's first Indigenous Voice to parliament.[50] The proposal comprises a 13-member advisory committee of Indigenous Australians to be appointed and elected prior to the end of 2021.[51]
In May 2022, the statement was endorsed by Labor leader Anthony Albanese on the occasion of his 2022 election victory.[3]
Same Rob. Was happy to see it was the first thing mentioned in the victory speech from both Wong and Albanese. Can only see good things coming out of this.
.See, wasn’t that hard was it?#AlboMyPM
— Dr Tracy Westerman AM (@TracyWesterman) May 23, 2022
@AlboMP pic.twitter.com/1xxK6ZL9Ot
Omigod. The adults are back in charge. https://t.co/SPW9rY53le
— Mike Carlton (@MikeCarlton01) May 23, 2022
If you don’t respect my ancestors, why should I respect yours?
Paul McD wrote:Stoked on an ALP win tonight. But it shouldn't overshadow that the ALP are just the current caretakers under a system that disallowed the original inhabitants of Australia to hold sovereinty of their own land for the last 200 plus years.. This country belongs to indigenous Australians. This election just amplifies all that is wrong with the soul of this country.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeXmlNcl9DI/
Apart from implementing the Uluru Statement or possibly changing the Constitution to include an Indigenous voice, what would you like to see?
Paul McD wrote:Same Rob. Was happy to see it was the first thing mentioned in the victory speech from both Wong and Albanese. Can only see good things coming out of this.
Plus one. Been a long time coming. Hopefully a beginning of future positivity. I can't really comment to much on this other than not only will it be highly significant but deeply moving to many. I fully support this in helping healing our country and providing full representation.
Their has been tremendous effort behind the scenes in order to get it this far. It deserves to be recognised in my opinion and as I said a long time coming. Basic respect is all inclusive and gives a greater chance of Australia righting some of the wrongs whilst giving a voice of representation.
Through healing we can truly find positive outcomes wether they effect either you or I. I look forward with anticipation. Reflection and positivity.
Robwilliams wrote:Paul McD wrote:Same Rob. Was happy to see it was the first thing mentioned in the victory speech from both Wong and Albanese. Can only see good things coming out of this.
Plus one. Been a long time coming.
I must admit I was stoked to see that flag. Hopefully it is not just talk...and some respect is given to back it up.
Two recent good reads on the issue from two very wise sensible indigenous men.
"Constitution Could Become ‘Discriminatory, Racist’ If Indigenous Voice Is Entrenched: Aboriginal Leader "
Warren Mundine
"Changing the constitution to include the ‘Indigenous Voice’ is “dangerous” as it could risk turning the constitution into a tool for discrimination, said Australian Indigenous leader Nyunggai Warren Mundine.
The push for constitutional reforms to recognise Indigenous people came after newly elected Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese pledged he would commit to the Uluru Statement from the Heart “in full” in his victory speech on Saturday.
The statement, which was proposed as a petition by the First Nations National Constitutional Convention in 2017, asks the government to establish a permanent body representing the Indigenous community. This would require amendments to the constitution to establish the Indigenous Voice, which can only be done by a referendum.
The statement also urges the government to establish a “truth” commission to present “historic and ongoing injustices” against Aboriginal people in Australia.
However, Mundine, a former National President of the Australian Labor Party, argued that the proposal advocated for “putting one race above other races.”
“Putting the Voice in our constitution is dangerous because we want all citizens to be treated equally. When you’ve got it into the body of the constitution, then it can become discriminatory and racist,” he told The Epoch Times.
“If you put something in the constitution, it’s very hard to get it out. And if it doesn’t work, then we’re sort of stuck with it.”
The former chairman of the Coalition government’s Indigenous Advisory Council also noted there have been five similar attempts in Australia since 1970, all of which have “failed,” while such attempts around the world “have also failed and ended in revolutions and arguments.”
“A Blame Game”
The Uluru Statement was put forward against the backdrop of widespread political discontent stemming from the controversial belief that Aboriginal Australians are “systematically discriminated” against as a result of British colonisation.
The Greens party were the first to endorse the Uluru Statement, followed by Labor, which called the Statement “a generous offer of a genuine partnership and a real chance for us to create a reconciled Australia.”
Labor’s incoming Indigenous affairs minister Linda Burney also supported establishing a Voice in the government, saying it “can give advice on issues” affecting Indigenous people.
But Mundine described the issue as “a blame game.” He said the proposals “don’t actually meet the needs” of the Indigenous community, which is facing “a whole wide range of problems” such as high rates of crime and violence in remote areas, low health and housing standards, and lack of access to education and employment opportunities.
“This idea that you need to set up a huge bureaucracy that’s going to cost millions and millions of dollars to operate, is going to solve all these problems is just living in a fantasy world,” he said. “We’ve got to deal with the reality.”
“We’ve spent probably nearly a trillion dollars in the last 50 years, and look at the problems we still have.”
Contrary to the belief that there is a lack of Indigenous voices in parliament, Mundine believes that the 2022 federal election, which has seen nine and possibly 10 Indigenous people voted into power— the highest on the record—demonstrates that there is already indigenous representation.
“My argument is, what are those people doing sitting in power? [They said the truth commission] is going to look at laws that affect Aboriginal people. Well, name me a law that doesn’t affect Aboriginal people. It’s every law, it’s taxation, it’s traffic, road rules, it’s education; it’s health, it’s the budget.”
“It’s nonsense, quite frankly. We are achieving so much now and moving ahead.”
Instead, Mundine believes that it is economic development that is “the missing link” in the Indigenous spaces as it will lead to more jobs, better health, higher education, improved housing, and infrastructure Mundine told The Epoch Times.
“What’s happening in some parts of Australia now is we got generational welfare with 234 generations who haven’t had a job… This is where you see the drugs and alcohol and mental health issues are in those areas,” he said.
“Now we’ve got to get people back to work. And that’s how it has helped people improve their lives.”
The well-known Indigenous figure also weighed in on the preferential treatment of Aboriginal Australians, which he said has impeded their effort to move on.
“If you’re looking at other people to fix your life, then you’ve got problems because no one can fix your life except for you,” he argued. “If you fall on hard times, then we’ll help you. But the idea is that you get best to work, you don’t live on welfare for the rest of your life.”
“Australia is one of the freest democratic societies in the world. I always say if we’re such a bad place, then why do people go on boats to try to get here? I don’t see people getting on boats trying to leave.”
https://www.theepochtimes.com/constitution-could-become-discriminatory-r...
Have to admit, I agree wholeheartedly with Warren Mundine.
Sucks that it would have to go to a referendum complete waste of time and money, i think the whole thing is a waste of time and wont fix anything.
However that said my mindset is, just get it done so they can see it fixes nothing, then one day they might actually start looking at real solutions that both Warren and Anthony talk about.
As opposing it is pointless as it just means you have people wanting it forever same deal with a treaty ect, all these things need to just be ticked off the list to make people happy before you get to a point where real solutions might be considered.
I don't fully understand this voice. A lot of nice words but very few pragmatic explanations. What is it, some sort of advisory body?
AndyM wrote:Paul McD wrote:Stoked on an ALP win tonight. But it shouldn't overshadow that the ALP are just the current caretakers under a system that disallowed the original inhabitants of Australia to hold sovereinty of their own land for the last 200 plus years.. This country belongs to indigenous Australians. This election just amplifies all that is wrong with the soul of this country.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeXmlNcl9DI/Apart from implementing the Uluru Statement or possibly changing the Constitution to include an Indigenous voice, what would you like to see?
Hi Andy M.
Sorry just saw this.
I laid a rough sketch out in the original post i put up (under BD).Could be classified under idealism, but the main point is, less tokenism, more structural changes in Australian society. Money and pay outs, i have no doubt go a long way. But they ultimately change nothing of the inclusiveness that is required from both sides of the table to heal wounds.
The details...they're not for me to work out, but for much brainer than me, but that's the general guts of why i started this thread.
Happy to hear your thoughts and ideas on this line of thinking.
Roadkill wrote:Robwilliams wrote:Paul McD wrote:Same Rob. Was happy to see it was the first thing mentioned in the victory speech from both Wong and Albanese. Can only see good things coming out of this.
Plus one. Been a long time coming.
I must admit I was stoked to see that flag. Hopefully it is not just talk...and some respect is given to back it up.
Agreed RK and Rob.
Hope you're healing up RK. Sounds nasty. Cheers.
Constance B Gibson wrote:
+1 even though it went largely under the radar today.
This country belongs to it's original inhabitants. The rest can be worked out from there.
indo-dreaming wrote:Sucks that it would have to go to a referendum complete waste of time and money, i think the whole thing is a waste of time and wont fix anything.
However that said my mindset is, just get it done so they can see it fixes nothing, then one day they might actually start looking at real solutions that both Warren and Anthony talk about.
As opposing it is pointless as it just means you have people wanting it forever same deal with a treaty ect, all these things need to just be ticked off the list to make people happy before you get to a point where real solutions might be considered.
Who's 'they' Indo? Non Australians??
Yep. Indo definitely feels the need to make a point of it. Sorry not sorry??
I generally just ignore Cunstance but its important to point out
Warren Mundine Ex-Lib yeah but also was with Labor for over ten years
"At the 2001 election, Mundine was placed third on the Australian Labor Party (New South Wales) Senate ticket. In 2004, Mundine sought to stand as the ALP candidate for the Division of Fowler in the House of Representatives, but lost the preselection battle to sitting Labor MP, Julia Irwin.
Mundine succeeded Barry Jones as President of the ALP, beginning his term on 28 January 2006, and became the first indigenous Australian to serve as president of an Australian political party.[9] During his tenure, Mundine pushed for the selection of candidates of Aboriginal background.[10] Mundine would serve just one term as national president, stepping down in 2007.[3] In March 2012, Mundine expressed an interest in becoming Labor's first federal Aboriginal Member of Parliament following the resignation of Mark Arbib from the Senate.
"Following the selection of former Premier of New South Wales Bob Carr to replace Arbib, Mundine would leave the Labor Party. In an interview with The Australian. Mundine explained that he had been a supporter of "Hawke-Keating Labor, where it was about economic development, and progress, and working with unions to get good outcomes for everyone", but that the ALP by 2012 was "no longer the party I joined" and had failed to keep up with the conservative parties in selecting indigenous candidates."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Mundine
Another words he left Labor when it went from being a party for everyday Aussies and blue collar workers to a party for of inner city woke
Rest of his comments as per normally is just complete trash talk trolls and not worth replying too.
Paul McD wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Sucks that it would have to go to a referendum complete waste of time and money, i think the whole thing is a waste of time and wont fix anything.
However that said my mindset is, just get it done so they can see it fixes nothing, then one day they might actually start looking at real solutions that both Warren and Anthony talk about.
As opposing it is pointless as it just means you have people wanting it forever same deal with a treaty ect, all these things need to just be ticked off the list to make people happy before you get to a point where real solutions might be considered.
Who's 'they' Indo? Non Australians??
They includes the government and anyone no matter ethnic background that ignore the real solutions that Anthony and Warren highlight.
BTW. This country doesn't belong to one ethnic group it belongs to all Australians of all ethnic backgrounds.
Unlike you i knew Warren had a long history with the Labor party as have listened and read interviews etc with him many times before.
Wiki was just an easy compact source to show you his history with the Labor party.
I snuck around to Indo's place the other day and took this quick snap of his moral compass.
AndyM wrote:I snuck around to Indo's place the other day and took this quick snap of his moral compass.
Read the two articles above Andy by two very smart driven indigenous men and educate yourself instead of talking trash trying to bring others down.
AndyM wrote:I snuck around to Indo's place the other day and took this quick snap of his moral compass.
hahahaha!
Constance B Gibson wrote:Been on the café au laits early, id? Your reading of Mundine is, as usual, like all your 5 minute googling, perfunctory propaganda...strangely simpatico with certain corpo media political 'news'.
Hahaha. And Wikipedia!
Do you know anything really at all about Mundine, let alone Dillon or Price?
Beyond the corpo media that strokes your pony-mullet, and Wikipedia?
Hi Constance. Respectfully, rather than an ad hominem affront on ID, might you respond to the pieces he published? The points Dilllon and Mundine make warrant discussion, no? I trust none of us want to waste a bunch of time and money on a (potentially) tokenistic gesture which makes white folk feel good but otherwise makes little meaningful improvement in indigenous peoples' lives. You seem a clever person to me so it would be good to hear your thoughts.
Indo if you think Indigenous people generally have been victims of reverse racism and all they need is a good day's work and to drag themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps, then I strongly suggest you've missed pretty much everything that's happened to Indigenous people in this country.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of tough love but Wazza Mundine sounds like he's spouting ideology.
AndyM wrote:Indo if you think Indigenous people generally have been victims of reverse racism and all they need is a good day's work and to drag themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps, then I strongly suggest you've missed pretty much everything that's happened to Indigenous people in this country.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of tough love but Wazza Mundine sounds like he's spouting ideology.
There all your words not mine so please dont try to put them in my mouth
I believe in pretty much what Anthony and Warren believe in.
-Education
-Employment
-Health care
-Cultural change & true truth telling.
Anthony and Warren are successfully indigenous people because of these things.
If you believe in what Warren Mundine says in that article, then I think what I said is quite accurate.
To be honest i wasn't so focussed on the first half of his article but more the second half.
There is also no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, when you treat people differently based on race, ethnicity or skin colour it's racism, so yeah there is truth in what he is saying.
But like i said before if you dont tick these boxes and move on, you will forever have people banging on about them and saying the problem is we dont have this Uluru Statement we dont have a treaty.
Theres no point fighting these things you need to reach a point where the excuses are exhausted and then you finally might get to a point where people like Anthony, Warren & Jacinta are listened too.
indo-dreaming wrote:To be honest i wasn't so focussed on the first half of his article but more the second half.
There is also no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, when you treat people differently based on race, ethnicity or skin colour it's racism, so yeah there is truth in what he is saying.
But like i said before if you dont tick these boxes and move on, you will forever have people banging on about them and saying the problem is we dont have this Uluru Statement we dont have a treaty.
Theres no point fighting these things you need to reach a point where the excuses are exhausted and then you finally might get to a point where people like Anthony, Warren & Jacinta are listened too.
Indo, the point is, racism has made life for the people that were on this land before white settlers came along 200 years ago, extremely difficult to say the least. To ignore this and not acknowledge the race of the people that have had this racist assault on them and their culture is naive and the dangerous way of thinking that is holding this conversation back. We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past. By living the life we currently live as whitefolk that still supresses the indigenous culture is an example of us not taking ownership of the past. This is why i ask the question of what reparation can be offered to balance the ledger so to speak.
I'm surprised you keep missing this point.
Indo, it’s totally twisted to say that giving extra help to indigenous people is racist.
AndyM wrote:Indo, it’s totally twisted to say that giving extra help to indigenous people is racist.
Andy again, please stop twisting my words.
You can help indigenous people who need help without having policy based on race, it's called treating people based on need not treating them differently based on ethnicity or skin colour.
Treating people based on need rather than race is the opposite of racism.
But you either get it or you dont, it seems something you want to focus on looking for gotcha moments or paint me in a negative light but it's not the aspect im focused on discussing or interested in from Warrens article.
Paul McD wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:To be honest i wasn't so focussed on the first half of his article but more the second half.
There is also no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, when you treat people differently based on race, ethnicity or skin colour it's racism, so yeah there is truth in what he is saying.
But like i said before if you dont tick these boxes and move on, you will forever have people banging on about them and saying the problem is we dont have this Uluru Statement we dont have a treaty.
Theres no point fighting these things you need to reach a point where the excuses are exhausted and then you finally might get to a point where people like Anthony, Warren & Jacinta are listened too.
Indo, the point is, racism has made life for the people that were on this land before white settlers came along 200 years ago, extremely difficult to say the least. To ignore this and not acknowledge the race of the people that have had this racist assault on them and their culture is naive and the dangerous way of thinking that is holding this conversation back. We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past. By living the life we currently live as whitefolk that still supresses the indigenous culture is an example of us not taking ownership of the past. This is why i ask the question of what reparation can be offered to balance the ledger so to speak.
I'm surprised you keep missing this point.
The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with racism or the past.
If the past or racism was the main cause of major indigenous issues then indigenous people in cities living side by side with non indigenous people would be the ones with the biggest issues and suffering, yet this is where most indigenous people are no different to you and me in how they live or what they achieve.
Instead the biggest problems are seen remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and most control of their communities
There is cultural elements to some of these problems (patriarchal based cultural aspects affect how women are treated) but it also has a lot to do with the fact that any group of people without access to good education, employment and medical/mental health services etc will always have many of these issues no matter ethnicity or past history, we see this all around the world in all ethnic groups of people, if you dont have good education, employment and health care you have issues (especially interracial welfare dependency)
Anyway this popped up in my FB feed today from Jacinta Price another smart driven indigenous person and someone that has lived and been affected by these issues, and just been elected to Senate so hopefully will become a more mainstream name.
"Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, is a Country Liberal Party senator for the Northern Territory.
It is hard to hear the softest of voices in a room filled with clamouring chatter. Only in silence can the quiet truly be heard. Thus, the genuine voices of Indigenous suffering are being drowned out by the virtue-signalling calls for a “voice” and “recognition”.
Indigenous recognition has become the latest virtuous fad; where on any given day in our nation you can be confronted with non-Indigenous Australians vying to have their virtues heard when they monotonously and mechanically pay their “respects to elders past, present and emerging”. Simultaneously, Australians with Indigenous heritage purport to be “proud” members of some – or a number of – tribes belonging to the fashionably termed “First Nations”.
Labor prides itself on acknowledgments to “First Nations” Aboriginal Australians and there is nothing more “virtue-signalling” than Anthony Albanese’s self-gratifying act of flanking himself in the parliamentary press room with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags.
There is a stark difference, however, between “big-noting” oneself and actually acknowledging and committing to act on the fact that Indigenous women and children are still being victimised by domestic and family violence and sexual assault at many times the national rate.
What becomes stark is the lack of “recognition” for the reality of the Indigenous voices of victims of violence and sexual abuse, which are blatantly ignored by the virtue signalling class.
There is no mention in the voice to parliament about how we as Indigenous Australians, along with the wider Australian community, are going to confront this reality and start protecting and supporting victims.
There is no mention in the Uluru Statement from the Heart how we as Indigenous Australians are going to confront the crisis of family violence and child sexual abuse.
There is no mention in treaty talks of how Aboriginal Australians are going to work to end violence and sexual abuse in their communities suffering the highest rates of DV and sexual violence.
In all of the fallout from the police shooting death of my nephew in Yuendumu, and the demands of “justice” for his death, there has never been a single demand from my family’s community for justice in response to the countless other homicides, sexual assaults and cases of horrific interpersonal violence caused by those we are related to as kin.
I sat in a courtroom two years ago to support my niece as she and my cousin, her aunty, gave evidence in her case brought against her own father for raping and violently abusing her. Aside from my aunt, her aunt, my mother and my father, not once during the trial did our other family members come to her side in support of her as a victim, or to demand justice for the horrifying trauma inflicted on her by her own father. Instead, she and her aunt came under immediate threat for reporting the horror to police.
It was the perpetrator who received and continues to receive support from family. So much so, his brother took it upon himself to attack my cousin, my niece’s aunt, with an axe while she worked at the primary school – simply for supporting her niece to fight for justice.
The attack was witnessed by schoolchildren. If the brother of an accused rapist and abuser took it upon themselves to attack a woman with an axe in a school in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide or Perth, it would have made national headlines. The perpetrator would have been called out, marches for women would have taken to the streets of cities and there would have been grand demands to smash the patriarchy.
But unfortunately for my cousin and my niece, they are voiceless Aboriginal women who are easily controlled and abused in communities that are out of sight and out of mind of the “virtue-signalling” class. These attacks cannot be fixed by “Welcome to Country” or elders past, present and emerging. Certainly the elders in my niece’s and cousin’s community did not acknowledge nor demand justice for the crimes committed against them.
My niece has had to flee to another state for fear of further violent reprisals. She has been dispossessed of her community because her own family would side with the perpetrator. Yet no excuse exists for such violence and abuse to be acceptable. Nor does any excuse exist for any person – no matter who they are – to not call out this horror, stand up for victims and let them be heard.
These raw and unpleasant truths must be dragged out of the darkness and into the light so Aboriginal women and girls – Australian citizens like my niece and cousin – might one day have their silenced voices heard.
Yet still atop of the Labor government’s list of priorities for supposed betterment of our first people is recognition, treaty and – most ironically – voice."
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE1...
Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??
Bumping his here so can be read as relevant to next post
indo-dreaming wrote:Paul McD wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:To be honest i wasn't so focussed on the first half of his article but more the second half.
There is also no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, when you treat people differently based on race, ethnicity or skin colour it's racism, so yeah there is truth in what he is saying.
But like i said before if you dont tick these boxes and move on, you will forever have people banging on about them and saying the problem is we dont have this Uluru Statement we dont have a treaty.
Theres no point fighting these things you need to reach a point where the excuses are exhausted and then you finally might get to a point where people like Anthony, Warren & Jacinta are listened too.
Indo, the point is, racism has made life for the people that were on this land before white settlers came along 200 years ago, extremely difficult to say the least. To ignore this and not acknowledge the race of the people that have had this racist assault on them and their culture is naive and the dangerous way of thinking that is holding this conversation back. We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past. By living the life we currently live as whitefolk that still supresses the indigenous culture is an example of us not taking ownership of the past. This is why i ask the question of what reparation can be offered to balance the ledger so to speak.
I'm surprised you keep missing this point.The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with racism or the past.
If the past or racism was the main cause of major indigenous issues then indigenous people in cities living side by side with non indigenous people would be the ones with the biggest issues and suffering, yet this is where most indigenous people are no different to you and me in how they live or what they achieve.
Instead the biggest problems are seen remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and most control of their communities
There is cultural elements to some of these problems (patriarchal based cultural aspects affect how women are treated) but it also has a lot to do with the fact that any group of people without access to good education, employment and medical/mental health services etc will always have many of these issues no matter ethnicity or past history, we see this all around the world in all ethnic groups of people, if you dont have good education, employment and health care you have issues (especially interracial welfare dependency)
Anyway this popped up in my FB feed today from Jacinta Price another smart driven indigenous person and someone that has lived and been affected by these issues, and just been elected to Senate so hopefully will become a more mainstream name.
"Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, is a Country Liberal Party senator for the Northern Territory.
It is hard to hear the softest of voices in a room filled with clamouring chatter. Only in silence can the quiet truly be heard. Thus, the genuine voices of Indigenous suffering are being drowned out by the virtue-signalling calls for a “voice” and “recognition”.Indigenous recognition has become the latest virtuous fad; where on any given day in our nation you can be confronted with non-Indigenous Australians vying to have their virtues heard when they monotonously and mechanically pay their “respects to elders past, present and emerging”. Simultaneously, Australians with Indigenous heritage purport to be “proud” members of some – or a number of – tribes belonging to the fashionably termed “First Nations”.
Labor prides itself on acknowledgments to “First Nations” Aboriginal Australians and there is nothing more “virtue-signalling” than Anthony Albanese’s self-gratifying act of flanking himself in the parliamentary press room with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags.
There is a stark difference, however, between “big-noting” oneself and actually acknowledging and committing to act on the fact that Indigenous women and children are still being victimised by domestic and family violence and sexual assault at many times the national rate.
What becomes stark is the lack of “recognition” for the reality of the Indigenous voices of victims of violence and sexual abuse, which are blatantly ignored by the virtue signalling class.
There is no mention in the voice to parliament about how we as Indigenous Australians, along with the wider Australian community, are going to confront this reality and start protecting and supporting victims.
There is no mention in the Uluru Statement from the Heart how we as Indigenous Australians are going to confront the crisis of family violence and child sexual abuse.There is no mention in treaty talks of how Aboriginal Australians are going to work to end violence and sexual abuse in their communities suffering the highest rates of DV and sexual violence.
In all of the fallout from the police shooting death of my nephew in Yuendumu, and the demands of “justice” for his death, there has never been a single demand from my family’s community for justice in response to the countless other homicides, sexual assaults and cases of horrific interpersonal violence caused by those we are related to as kin.
I sat in a courtroom two years ago to support my niece as she and my cousin, her aunty, gave evidence in her case brought against her own father for raping and violently abusing her. Aside from my aunt, her aunt, my mother and my father, not once during the trial did our other family members come to her side in support of her as a victim, or to demand justice for the horrifying trauma inflicted on her by her own father. Instead, she and her aunt came under immediate threat for reporting the horror to police.
It was the perpetrator who received and continues to receive support from family. So much so, his brother took it upon himself to attack my cousin, my niece’s aunt, with an axe while she worked at the primary school – simply for supporting her niece to fight for justice.
The attack was witnessed by schoolchildren. If the brother of an accused rapist and abuser took it upon themselves to attack a woman with an axe in a school in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Adelaide or Perth, it would have made national headlines. The perpetrator would have been called out, marches for women would have taken to the streets of cities and there would have been grand demands to smash the patriarchy.
But unfortunately for my cousin and my niece, they are voiceless Aboriginal women who are easily controlled and abused in communities that are out of sight and out of mind of the “virtue-signalling” class. These attacks cannot be fixed by “Welcome to Country” or elders past, present and emerging. Certainly the elders in my niece’s and cousin’s community did not acknowledge nor demand justice for the crimes committed against them.
My niece has had to flee to another state for fear of further violent reprisals. She has been dispossessed of her community because her own family would side with the perpetrator. Yet no excuse exists for such violence and abuse to be acceptable. Nor does any excuse exist for any person – no matter who they are – to not call out this horror, stand up for victims and let them be heard.
These raw and unpleasant truths must be dragged out of the darkness and into the light so Aboriginal women and girls – Australian citizens like my niece and cousin – might one day have their silenced voices heard.
Yet still atop of the Labor government’s list of priorities for supposed betterment of our first people is recognition, treaty and – most ironically – voice."
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE1...
Paul McD wrote:Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??
Okay just answer this one question please.
If racism is the big problem as you suggest.
Then why by far are the biggest indigenous problems found in remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and elders ect have most control of their communities.
?????
While indigenous people that live side by side with non indigenous people in cities ect have far far far less issues and generally live and achieve in the same ways non indigenous people do.
But if racism was the major root of these problems as you believe it is, shouldn't the outcome be the exact opposite??
Id really love to hear your explanation on this.
BTW. As pointed out Warren Mundine had a much longer deeper involvement in the Labor party then LNP he was even national president of the Labor party, Anthony Dillion is not involved in politics and although he works for some Catholic College he has made it clear may times he is not religious.
Here's a novel idea. Why don't we let the indigenous people who are affected by this, be open to have their say like the Price's, Mundine's, Dillon's and the 9 or 10 indigenous people elected to parliament which are mainly Labor, Green or Independent. I note Ken Wyatt was not reelected and yes, he was LNP, but being indigenous, I think, had the best interests of his people at heart.
So let them have their say and us white folk back off and listen. Obviously, there is differing opinions within their own people as per what Indo put up and they should be listened to. Let them thrash it out.
Look at the indigenous round nonsense in the AFL and NRL at present, it's gotten completely out of hand. Melbourne AFL even changed their name to 'Narrm' ffs.
Cockee wrote:Look at the indigenous round nonsense in the AFL and NRL at present, it's gotten completely out of hand. Melbourne AFL even changed their name to 'Narrm' ffs.
Is it actually "completely out of hand", or are you just a redneck piece of shit?
“The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with….the past”
Indo you’re so unbelievably ignorant.
@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
"...We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past..."
I don't really want to get involved, because this shit has been gone over a million times...
but statements like this annoy the fuck out of me... aside from a few redneck land owners maybe, and some conservative commentators perhaps...
who the hell is this absolite minute minority of people denying the atrocities of the past?
I literally do not know anyone - a single person... (and I know some rednecky types...) who deny the blackfellas were fucked over
everyday just about on the drum and various other abc shows, there's some advocate saying we need to 'face our history' and we need a 'truth telling' and various other buzzy terms...
the history wars are done!
totally!!! ...for want of a better term, 'the progressives' have won... the dark history is everywhere, 'the stolen generation' is mainstream history, so much so, just about every euro or other visitor to australia, is well well aware of our history. the school curriculum is absolutely heavily laden with 'aboriginal perspectives' history, every single subject is taught through an 'indigenous lens' or theme...
what is this supposed history we are not facing?
what is it advocates believe we still need to face?
is this mode of thinking purely based around financial compensation?
and yeh, absolute shame ken wyatt was voted out, but he will find another significant role, he's clearly a passionate, significant, very competent man...
linda burney eagerly said so the other day (she worked intensively with him)
who woulda thought? ....a labor (lefty) praising the contributions of a liberal party member...
read some of the shit on here, and one would think that is an absolute impossibility
liberal = all that's rotten and bad
yeh nah...
surely the need for listening to 'aboriginal perspectives', means listening to ALL aboriginal perspectives...
indo-dreaming wrote:Paul McD wrote:Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??Okay just answer this one question please.
If racism is the big problem as you suggest.
Then why by far are the biggest indigenous problems found in remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and elders ect have most control of their communities.
?????
While indigenous people that live side by side with non indigenous people in cities ect have far far far less issues and generally live and achieve in the same ways non indigenous people do.
But if racism was the major root of these problems as you believe it is, shouldn't the outcome be the exact opposite??
Id really love to hear your explanation on this.
BTW. As pointed out Warren Mundine had a much longer deeper involvement in the Labor party then LNP he was even national president of the Labor party, Anthony Dillion is not involved in politics and although he works for some Catholic College he has made it clear may times he is not religious.
Fark Indo. Really? We've been over this in this very thread, and no matter what i produced you still couldn't see it/ignored it. You want me to do that again? No way. Go back and look for yourself. It's all there.
I can see you have your beliefs and they're not going to change. An open perspective on the topic, especially in the situation of putting yourself in others shoes, i.e Indigenous Australians and thinking of the situation from that perspective would be something i think all of us could benefit from.
Go back and read it all. We thrashed these exact points out.
sypkan wrote:"...We as a nation have to look in the mirror, which includes all the past before we can move forward. It's called ownership of the past..."
I don't really want to get involved, because this shit has been gone over a million times...
but statements like this annoy the fuck out of me... aside from a few redneck land owners maybe, and some conservative commentators perhaps...
who the hell is this absolite minute minority of people denying the atrocities of the past?
I literally do not know anyone - a single person... (and I know some rednecky types...) who deny the blackfellas were fucked over
everyday just about on the drum and various other abc shows, there's some advocate saying we need to 'face our history' and we need a 'truth telling' and various other buzzy terms...
the history wars are done!
totally!!! ...for want of a better term, 'the progressives' have won... the dark history is everywhere, 'the stolen generation' is mainstream history, so much so, just about every euro or other visitor to australia, is well well aware of our history. the school curriculum is absolutely heavily laden with 'aboriginal perspectives' history, every single subject is taught through an 'indigenous lens' or theme...
what is this supposed history we are not facing?
what is it advocates believe we still need to face?
is this mode of thinking purely based around financial compensation?
and yeh, absolute shame ken wyatt was voted out, but he will find another significant role, he's clearly a passionate, significant, very competent man...
linda burney eagerly said so the other day (she worked intensively with him)
who woulda thought? ....a labor (lefty) praising the contributions of a liberal party member...
read some of the shit on here, and one would think that is an absolute impossibility
liberal = all that's rotten and bad
yeh nah...
I respectfully disagree with you on this one Sypkan.
I also don't wanna go into it all over and over again, firstly because i have fuck all in the way of answers, but secondly, because it's been done to death on some levels.
What i am observing is that if we had truly faced the history of the past and what has happened, we wouldn't still have the problems we have today. And the problems are real. There's a seething dislike and distrust of whitefellas simmering under the surface, well it seems that way to me.
Facing history isn't reading books and going,,...ahhh i see. It's addressing the past misdeeds in n open public forum and finding ways to repair those wounds from what has happened. We've only glanced in the rearview mirror so to speak for the most part, but kept driving forward.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's the way i see it. Anyway, gonna watch G Land. Cheers.
btw, regarding the Indigenous round in the AFL. The Indigenous fellas in the AFL teams love it. They are proud to stand strong and united in these rounds which are showcased to the country.
The Richmond boys did there thing the other night in front of a packed MCG and they couldn't have been prouder. I think they likened that moment to as good as winning a premiership.
Some of you might think this sort of thing is tokenism, but fundamentally, it's sharing culture, which is what is part of the healing.
To deny sounds a little like proclaiming superiority to the other.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28