The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

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etarip Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 8:27am

No worries Hutch. Appreciate your validation of what I posted: “ I’m pretty sure it was primarily a response to Chinese Immigration on the goldfields in the late 19th century. Nothing to do with aboriginal peoples. They had other discriminatory laws for that, and the official view was that they were dying out anyway.” The comment about your memory was a response to your abstract reference to me.

Ref nastiness; I’m working on it. Can you point out where my ‘nastiness is so common’? I’d really appreciate it.

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brutus Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 9:45am
indo-dreaming wrote:

@ Brutus

To be honest for now i really don't have much to add to this conversation it feels like it's run its course and just running around in circles or turning into back and forth niggles.

I get it Indo , for you it is going around in circles , but the reason I post here is as I am still learning about Australia's History . I find it so interesting to uncover more and more of our real history , debunking a lot of what was considered fact......

so finding out about the past is also fraught with discovery's that challenge our notion of who we are as an Australian , who we were(White Australia Policy) and what will our Children inherit as a National identity ........

I think in the last couple of years there has been an enormous effort to revisit our past history , find the truth ( Will be decades ) and rebuild the National Identity as Cosmopolitan Country with an amazing First peoples culture as our foundation....there is no other way....unless people like you and Hutchy actually take onboard our revised History and admit that Colonialism was a dark period in Human history ......

The only way to become part of the solution to Australia's Identity moving forward is be part of the treaty process and at least read what is being discovered....?

Indo I just read this from you "It's not politically correct to dig deeper and its a much harder route to take, change will only ever happen around almost all indigenous issues if the blame game stops and personal ownership is taken and the rose coloured glasses are taken off. (instead of being painted with more rose)."

I think this statement from you sums up what the current problem in Australia is towards reconciliation/treaty and embracing our Indigenous culture .

It's not politically correct to dig deeper as it's hard....this is just a sad statement but very representative of people who do not want to face the reality of the past , and how it has affected people today.......there is no blame only understanding.....but Indo sounds like you have a guilt problem with colonial times and the actions that ensued!

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bluediamond Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 10:11am

+1 to that post Brutus. Brilliant.

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blindboy Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 11:23am

Great stuff brutus, such a positive view of our future!

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Optimist Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 11:33am

I think we need to encourage more aboriginal people into parliament as the ones that are there are doing well. They will get a lot of votes. I think this will bring a better understanding of first people into our Govt. and get better balanced and functional results. I disagree about a treaty. I think it will only cause division and an “us and them” mentality. We are a different world now and Australia a far different place…we have to operate as one not two. A treaty a long time ago when far less people were here would have been really good, but there was an arrogant and elitist mentality from the newcomers. And now, we have to strengthen the ever slowly improving systems that are happening to help aboriginal people find the new and prosperous life they deserve without creating two countries in one. Everyone has to move on, but do it thoughtfully. Just my opinion…may not be correct.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 1:08pm

Brutus - unfortunately you spoil a good post with incorrect assumptions .

".unless people like you and Hutchy actually take onboard our revised History and admit that Colonialism was a dark period in Human history ......"

Speaking for myself I am aware of the initial problems of colonization of a country . Red Indians and Aztec's like many people had a terrible time . I studied the " Clash of Economic Systems " at Uni .

"but Indo sounds like you have a guilt problem with colonial times and the actions that ensued! "

It is comments like the above and your insulting assumptions that make me feel that the thread DOES keeps going around in circles .

Everything I say , any view I promote are automatically assumed to be politically incorrect and I get abuse .

You guys make it seem that my concerns and offers for help and understanding are definitely not worthy of your cause and not needed .

Good luck getting the mainstream of Australia to support your cause as you will surely need it .

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blindboy Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 1:48pm

"Red Indians and Aztec's". should be "Aztecs".

"DOES keeps going around in circles ." should be "keep"

"any view I promote are automatically". should be "is"

Shall I go on?

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brutus Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 4:22pm

"Good luck getting the mainstream of Australia to support your cause as you will surely need it ."

Mainstream Australia has and is showing it's support for reconciliation , as I said before ...it's not my cause , it's "our Cause".....which you and Indo choose not to be part of....relics of a bygone era and a small getting smaller minority.

As I read more , I will post more ,just so we can all feel great about being part of the solution.....and watch as Australia becomes .....???????

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 5:13pm
brutus wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:

@ Brutus

To be honest for now i really don't have much to add to this conversation it feels like it's run its course and just running around in circles or turning into back and forth niggles.

I get it Indo , for you it is going around in circles , but the reason I post here is as I am still learning about Australia's History . I find it so interesting to uncover more and more of our real history , debunking a lot of what was considered fact......

so finding out about the past is also fraught with discovery's that challenge our notion of who we are as an Australian , who we were(White Australia Policy) and what will our Children inherit as a National identity ........

I think in the last couple of years there has been an enormous effort to revisit our past history , find the truth ( Will be decades ) and rebuild the National Identity as Cosmopolitan Country with an amazing First peoples culture as our foundation....there is no other way....unless people like you and Hutchy actually take onboard our revised History and admit that Colonialism was a dark period in Human history ......

The only way to become part of the solution to Australia's Identity moving forward is be part of the treaty process and at least read what is being discovered....?

Indo I just read this from you "It's not politically correct to dig deeper and its a much harder route to take, change will only ever happen around almost all indigenous issues if the blame game stops and personal ownership is taken and the rose coloured glasses are taken off. (instead of being painted with more rose)."

I think this statement from you sums up what the current problem in Australia is towards reconciliation/treaty and embracing our Indigenous culture .

It's not politically correct to dig deeper as it's hard....this is just a sad statement but very representative of people who do not want to face the reality of the past , and how it has affected people today.......there is no blame only understanding.....but Indo sounds like you have a guilt problem with colonial times and the actions that ensued!

Like I said we are just going around in circles i said that because you tagged me in a post, but let's do it anyway, i get that the history is of this interest you and part of your identity.

The problem i feel with you is you and many others though is you seem interested in only one aspect of the history, and not the whole picture, it's a romanticised type of history and also a kind of vindictive one, especially when you believe all aboriginal problems are the result of colonisation, when its clear there is deeper cultural issues which is no surprise when you thrust a people and culture that was isolated for so long into a very different world.

As to who we are as Australians or Australia identity, i think everyone has a very different view on this i dont think there is any right or wrong or one set identity and obviously an indigenous person is going to have a very different view to say a Chinese Australian or Australian with english ancestry or someone like my wife with Indonesian ancestry, and within every group there is going to be people that are interested in their own history and others history or Australian history or indigenous history and people who are not, one of my best mates has indigenous ancestry, but it means pretty much nothing to him, in exactly the same way my Dutch and English ancestry means pretty much nothing to me.

I think for many Australians the Aboriginal aspect is really only one aspect of a much larger identity of what Australia is and most see the Aboriginal aspect as a seperate culture/identity because unless you are Aboriginal its not your culture or identity in the same way if you aren't an Italian Aussie, you see their culture as a different Australian culture/identity, that said at the same time we are all Australians, it like a Pizza with lots of different slices, exhorting slice slightly different but all pieces belong to the same pizza.

In regard to reconciliation from a non indigenous perspective from a government and majority of Australians point of view our relations are friendly and we do what we can to help, we spend millions on trying to help with indigenous issues, we recognise their history as first people pretty much every where from school assemblies to AFL grand finals etc.

In regard to a treaty, it's something that i think is pretty much pointless and wont help Aboriginal people or issues one little bit, but I'm not opposed to it, id much rather see it ticked off the list rather than hear people keep going on about it thinking things aren't changing because it hasn't been implemented, that said when it happens and nothing changes I'm not going to sit back and go, see nothing has changed either, i don't think thats good form..

In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?

My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)

The whole concept is ridiculous I don't think anyone should feel any guilt for anything they didn't do, or guilty for sharing the same ethnicity as others that might have not done not so good things in the past, if that was the case every person on earth would be walking around feeling guilty for all kinds of things their ancestors did as every ethnic group on earth has done things that would now not be viewed in a positive light.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 5:37pm

Brutus - as I said - I wanted it to be part of " our cause " .

Due to the negativity of you and others , you have made it clear you don't want me part of it . I am excluded due to your assumptions on what I feel and believe in . So I am considered by YOU to not be worthy of your cause .

I do , I believe , have mainstream views and wanted to show my support for our First Nations .

You refuse to accept it . As has been mentioned above your resentments regarding the past won't let you .

As I have also said , any referendum or treaty that does not spell out clearly the detail will get a no from the mainstream . There has been only one solution ( healing centres ) that I have seen ( I have repeatedly asked you for more ) that is realistic and could make a difference . Yes changing a few place names but nothing else .All the First Nations will unfortunately receive will be token crumbs .

Like a "Sorry " that seems to have made little real difference to the plight of our First Nations .

The circle keeps on turning unfortunately ! .

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blindboy Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 5:46pm

Some get it and can see that indigenous culture is a huge asset to the nation and is a critical part of our national identity as seen from.other countries. Others just keep looking back and restrict their vision to more of the same.

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Hutchy 19 Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 6:25pm

You are right BB - I "can see that indigenous culture is a huge asset to the nation and is a critical part of our national identity " .

But I have also seen , tragically , the official stats on crime , incarceration ( 13 times the national average ) , sexual abuse , violence etc percentages that were so bad I was unable ( maybe also unwilling ) to commit to memory .

A National shame that I desperately want to remove as quickly as possible whatever the cost !

It is you and others who refuse to accept ( we can still learn about ) the past and move with positive conviction to the future who condemn our First Nations to "restrict their vision to more of the same."

A tragedy !!!!

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Constance B Gibson Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 7:29pm

Jeezus...

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Constance B Gibson Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 7:30pm

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Constance B Gibson Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 7:31pm

Oh Lord, let us smooth the dying pillow...

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tubeshooter Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 8:29pm

I'm just curious Hutchy, and it's a genuine question. Not sure if you've mentioned it before as I don't have the time nor the inclination to keep up with all these threads , but how much experience do you actually have with the indigenous crew.?
All I hear from you is stats. I doubt you'd last five minutes in a town full of blackfellas . You really need to do some field research .Do you really think your ranting on SN is going to help anything?
If you were coming from a place of real experience I would give more weight to your words on this.
Stick to what you know bro , this ain't it.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 20 Oct 2021 at 9:48pm

Deja vu - CSNY

One, two, three, four
If I had ever been here before
I would probably know just what to do, don't you?
If I had ever been here before on another time around the wheel
I would probably know just how to deal with all of you
And I feel like I've been here before
Feel like I've been here before
And you know it makes me wonder
What's going on under the ground, hmm
Do you know? Don't you wonder
What's going on down under you?
We have all been here before, we have all been here before
We have all been here before, we have all been here before
We have all been here before, we have all been here before

Sadly, we have all been here before, the same dogged intransigence, the same narrow view, the same cherry picked (CP) information sources and arguments: that Aboriginals living on isolated country isn't viable, referencing Aboriginal spokespeople with polar opposite views to what 99.99% of community elders are saying; that Adam Goodes was wrong to call out the young women in the crowd; that the treaty, the Uluru Statement and constitutional recognition are all token gestures that will fail. Also perhaps the nadir in any SN forum discussion: Andrew Bolt's 18c legal case where people identifying as Aboriginal was questioned with that coffee/milk comment. It's all there in the SN archives.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 8:31am

Aboriginals living on isolated country isn't viable= without government hand out's it not, levels of poverty would fall even lower, there will never be the jobs there or never viable to have all the facilities and infrastructure to deal with the education and health issues, that is just fact.

Sure you could argue they have the right to go back to living a traditional lifestyle but that's not the situation, they havent rejected electricity and money or many western things.

Referencing Aboriginal spokespeople with polar opposite views to what 99.99% of community elders are saying= so why aren't these 99.999% community elders fixing all the problems in their communities?

Its sure not a lack of money, that shouldn't even be needed to make change, and the old argument that so and so isn't listening to the elders is BS, many programs etc are run or overseen by indgenous people

How long do you want to wait until you go, okay the current approach is clearly not working, maybe we need to actually listen to the minority view and take another approach??

That Adam Goodes was wrong to call out the young women in the crowd= purely a matter of opinion.

That the treaty, the Uluru Statement and constitutional recognition are all token gestures that will fail= hopefully they will both happen, and we will then have evidence that they achieve little to nothing, if im wrong and they magically solve or even moderately improve all the problems indigenous people have, then great i will humbly accept i was wrong but also hope you do the same when little to nothing is changed around the real issues.

Andrew Bolt's 18c legal case where people identifying as Aboriginal was questioned with that coffee/milk comment= One of the women who sued AB now actually has gone 360 and said she was wrong and AB was right.

BTW. the phrase i used is has also been used by SBS, an Aboriginal comedian & a facebook get up post, my original post was saying and dont say (insert coffee milk comment) explaining why the comment is not correct.

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 8:39am

Tubes - my first hand experiences with Aboriginal people is extremely limited . Like most Australians and probably like most who comment on this thread .

Limited to second hand feedback . Like a close friend ( teacher ) and his wife ( midwife ) who wanted to do some "field research " and planned to work and help in an Aboriginal community for 5 years . They left after 2 years due to feeling unwelcome and unwanted .

Limited to my reading and watching TV to learn more . Hence the official stats which you seem to think are not relevant .

My views are then RANTS . I get constant aduse . I have a White Australia mentality . I am a Red Neck .

You say I really need to do "field research " before my views will be considered . You then say I won't last 5 minutes in and Aboriginal community . I also wonder how my youngest daughter would be treated in an ALL Aboriginal school . She also would probably only last 5 minutes and she is as left as you can get .

I also see that you all have treated EVERY other person who like me who wants to help and learn more .

Smiley -"Sadly, we have all been here before, the same dogged intransigence, the same narrow view, the same cherry picked (CP) information sources and arguments:"

You view my views as unworthy . You want me to fuck off .

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Optimist Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 8:57am

If your experience with aboriginal people is limited you should stop commenting on this thread hutch.

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brutus Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 9:59am

Indo, as I have already said we have different opinions , as we both have had very different life experiences .........so I am going to give you a couple of stories about why we cannot stop revisiting History, correcting history so we have a better understanding of the past and the cause and affect that is being experienced today..
Firstly your statement, "The problem i feel with you is you and many others though is you seem interested in only one aspect of the history, and not the whole picture, it's a romanticised type of history and also a kind of vindictive one, especially when you believe all aboriginal problems are the result of colonisation, when its clear there is deeper cultural issues which is no surprise when you thrust a people and culture that was isolated for so long into a very different world."
Ha , the one aspect of history ..you are right and that's truth !

As we are learning more and more everyday about our past...our history is also being rewritten as more and more evidence comes to light that what was our history is just not true . This is where I see more and more stories /facts being uncovered which show us colonialism had an enormous negative affect on the First Nations peoples past and present .
As we try and understand these new facts and correct history (eg Batman and Wills ) we get a better understanding of the negative affects on a pre-existing culture that has been inexistence longer than any other on the planet.
We now enjoy the incredible talents of our First culture...the painting / art/ dancing/dreamtime storytime...we all are starting to appreciate the positives of our First Culture.
To dismiss this as romanticized and vindictive and not accept it ,because colonialization says , they have an old irrelevant culture which does not fit into the new world that the colonialists brought to Australia , who did not recognize Australia's Aborigines as human....now there's the start of Invasion day/occupation and cultural genocide ...White Australia Policy/Stolen Generation ...all in my lifetime.......where I have first hand knowledge of the systemic racism and the fight for recognition of the oldest living culture on the planet...
I will keep answering your email , bit by bit as I have a huge work day today....

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 10:25am

Optimist - Why waste your time telling me what I already have said ? I just said I know you all think I am unworthy of commenting and my opinions are worthless .

I will do whatever I want .

Brutus - does knowing more about Batman etc help our First Nation people ? Do they personally feel better knowing more detail ? Does it make a big difference to THEM ? If so , why ?

If my father abused my mother , and I knew it, hearing more detail of other times of abuse would make me feel worse .

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brutus Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 11:12am

Secondly ,"I think for many Australians the Aboriginal aspect is really only one aspect of a much larger identity of what Australia is and most see the Aboriginal aspect as a seperate culture/identity because unless you are Aboriginal its not your culture or identity in the same way if you aren't an Italian Aussie, you see their culture as a different Australian culture/identity, that said at the same time we are all Australians, it like a Pizza with lots of different slices, exhorting slice slightly different but all pieces belong to the same pizza."

I disagree totally with your assertion that Australia is like pizza and will remain so!

Presently we are like a Pizza, and that's a problem in thinking that Australia will stay fragmented along ethnic lines .
fast forward a 100 years when we have 5th- 10th generation Australian /Asians/Europeans etc will all be integrated with Australia's first culture...as a foundation, as it's the oldest culture so it is our foundation......in the 60's and 70's Italian/Greek were targeted as Wogs and Dagos....80's and 80's it was the yellow peril , Vietnamese/Chinese .....then we had the Middle Eastern Terrorists...muslims and Lebbos etc.......all of this racist treatment of "other" ethnic groups has now been dissipated with the new generations integrating themselves into a new cosmopolitan Australia...your vision of Australia being divided along ethnic lines , will not happen as our kids and Grandkids are learning right now about the divisiveness within society....they are more educated on Global affairs and can use the truth of the past to keep building towards Better unified Australia...

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brutus Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 11:35am

Indo now we get to the interesting part ....which I completely understand as I spent a shit load of time in Germany/Bochum ( University area ) in the 80's doing trade shows , having dinners with up to 30-40 people....I loved shit stirring and would always ask after maincourse when everybody was pretty pissed and loose...and would ask how do you view Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.....this would blow things up , as there was always 2 schools of thought.....

1) We accept responsibility for the Holocaust , it was an aberration of our culture....goes back to the Teutonic knights and the idea of a superior race....so we accept and own the past , and will pay restitution and be part of the annual Holocaust day in Israel........
A Bit like Aussies do ,"lest we not forget" Anzac day Gallipoli.....

2) the other side of the argument was , it has nothing to do with us , it was our parents /Grandparents.....we take no responsibility , it was not us.....so nothing was learnt and the seeds for ne0-nazis was still alive and well.....

So when you say ," In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?

My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)

The whole concept is ridiculous I don't think anyone should feel any guilt for anything they didn't do, or guilty for sharing the same ethnicity as others that might have not done not so good things in the past, if that was the case every person on earth would be walking around feeling guilty for all kinds of things their ancestors did as every ethnic group on earth has done things that would now not be viewed in a positive light."

the guilt is quickly absolved when you own the past actions , and learn from them....and if you don't , well you become part of the problem in that you are doomed to continue making the same mistakes over and over, as Australia has been doing for the last 200 years or so.....

That's why Treaty is so important as truth is being told from a blackfellas perspective and not a white fellas interpretation , which is where we are now debunking a lot of so called facts that alienate us from each other....

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 12:01pm

Brutus - ".I loved shit stirring and would always ask after maincourse when everybody was pretty pissed and loose...and would ask how do you view Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.....this would blow things up , as there was always 2 schools of thought....."

What a nice way to make friends and influence people .

Have you changed ?

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bluediamond Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 12:42pm

regarding owning responsibility for past injustices, (it was in the original post)
"As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians."
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 1:46pm

Don't stress, comrades, just realise that SN is a safe space to "smooth the dying pillow" for the likes of id & Hutchy 91.

Hear - don't heed - their last desperate gasps...

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 2:57pm

I used to party in Sydney with two German girls who were on holidays here being nannies. I asked them if they are proud of being German and they both said "no! what do you think?" like two world wars was something to be ashamed of when they were'nt even born yet...anyway ive hung out with a lot of Germans and they all seem ashamed of those points.

On one trip to indo, an Indonesian friend asked me where my name comes from i said the Netherlands and he said "so you want to take over and think you are king" or something like that...fucked if im going to be ashamed of having dutch heritage!

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brutus Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 3:02pm

indo.."That Adam Goodes was wrong to call out the young women in the crowd= purely a matter of opinion."

Yep young woman had very bad parenting , and with her mother standing next to her , the mother was also guilty....he called out the racism that he heard , which in todays world the young woman and her mother would be removed from the ground and even perhaps banned.... , ah times have changed for the better ...but Adams treatment by the crowds is and was a humiliating/embarrassing moment for all Australians and we lost one of our greatest players to the game....well done?
Ask Taylor Walker what happens now when unacceptable racial insults are hurled at Players.?

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evosurfer Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 3:13pm

Females can say and do what ever they want in this day and age.
Its a wonder Adam Woods wasnt charged for calling them out
luckily he is indigenous.

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blindboy Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 3:15pm

Probably not worth responding to that.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 3:47pm
brutus wrote:

Indo now we get to the interesting part ....which I completely understand as I spent a shit load of time in Germany/Bochum ( University area ) in the 80's doing trade shows , having dinners with up to 30-40 people....I loved shit stirring and would always ask after maincourse when everybody was pretty pissed and loose...and would ask how do you view Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.....this would blow things up , as there was always 2 schools of thought.....

1) We accept responsibility for the Holocaust , it was an aberration of our culture....goes back to the Teutonic knights and the idea of a superior race....so we accept and own the past , and will pay restitution and be part of the annual Holocaust day in Israel........
A Bit like Aussies do ,"lest we not forget" Anzac day Gallipoli.....

2) the other side of the argument was , it has nothing to do with us , it was our parents /Grandparents.....we take no responsibility , it was not us.....so nothing was learnt and the seeds for ne0-nazis was still alive and well.....

So when you say ," In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?

My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)

The whole concept is ridiculous I don't think anyone should feel any guilt for anything they didn't do, or guilty for sharing the same ethnicity as others that might have not done not so good things in the past, if that was the case every person on earth would be walking around feeling guilty for all kinds of things their ancestors did as every ethnic group on earth has done things that would now not be viewed in a positive light."

the guilt is quickly absolved when you own the past actions , and learn from them....and if you don't , well you become part of the problem in that you are doomed to continue making the same mistakes over and over, as Australia has been doing for the last 200 years or so.....

That's why Treaty is so important as truth is being told from a blackfellas perspective and not a white fellas interpretation , which is where we are now debunking a lot of so called facts that alienate us from each other....

So are you suggesting non indigenous Australians should feel guilt?

If so, is it just ones with English ancestry or all non indigenous Australians?

So a baby born with English ancestry is born with this guilt?

How long does this go on for, is there actually an end point?

And what determines this end point?

If you are going to have some responsibility handed down thorough generations maybe there is an argument that the government has a responsibility for ownership of the past, but they have already apologised, so the apology wasn't accepted?

Or does the government need to sign a treaty to release everyone from guilt?

BTW. Does this on going guilt thing also include other issues of the past?

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bluediamond Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 4:34pm

Honestly shaking my head at some of the comments today.....then i remembered, its a full moon!! ahhh.
As you were................

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brutus Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:06pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:

Indo now we get to the interesting part ....which I completely understand as I spent a shit load of time in Germany/Bochum ( University area ) in the 80's doing trade shows , having dinners with up to 30-40 people....I loved shit stirring and would always ask after maincourse when everybody was pretty pissed and loose...and would ask how do you view Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.....this would blow things up , as there was always 2 schools of thought.....

1) We accept responsibility for the Holocaust , it was an aberration of our culture....goes back to the Teutonic knights and the idea of a superior race....so we accept and own the past , and will pay restitution and be part of the annual Holocaust day in Israel........
A Bit like Aussies do ,"lest we not forget" Anzac day Gallipoli.....

2) the other side of the argument was , it has nothing to do with us , it was our parents /Grandparents.....we take no responsibility , it was not us.....so nothing was learnt and the seeds for ne0-nazis was still alive and well.....

So when you say ," In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?

My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)

The whole concept is ridiculous I don't think anyone should feel any guilt for anything they didn't do, or guilty for sharing the same ethnicity as others that might have not done not so good things in the past, if that was the case every person on earth would be walking around feeling guilty for all kinds of things their ancestors did as every ethnic group on earth has done things that would now not be viewed in a positive light."

the guilt is quickly absolved when you own the past actions , and learn from them....and if you don't , well you become part of the problem in that you are doomed to continue making the same mistakes over and over, as Australia has been doing for the last 200 years or so.....

That's why Treaty is so important as truth is being told from a blackfellas perspective and not a white fellas interpretation , which is where we are now debunking a lot of so called facts that alienate us from each other....

So are you suggesting non indigenous Australians should feel guilt?

If so, is it just ones with English ancestry or all non indigenous Australians?

So a baby born with English ancestry is born with this guilt?

How long does this go on for, is there actually an end point?

And what determines this end point?

If you are going to have some responsibility handed down thorough generations maybe there is an argument that the government has a responsibility for ownership of the past, but they have already apologised, so the apology wasn't accepted?

Or does the government need to sign a treaty to release everyone from guilt?

BTW. Does this on going guilt thing also include other issues of the past?

Indo, guilt is something you feel when you first come across an issue of the past, that pertains to yourself and possibly your ancestors/countrymen who were responsible....that initial feeling is then dealt with as you learn from past mistakes , which means now we have understood why there are past issues ...such as colonialism....what the affects are and then we change and make more better today's culture and lifestyle....

so the end point is being part of the solution....no guilt/no blame just actions that help with the solution...

I mean lets have a look at China ....they were invaded by the Colonial powers including the USA , raped and pillaged the locals got them addicted to opium....we are and will still feel the wrath of China because their history of being occupied by colonialism..........we now complain about the power of China , but the west created the current China.....then the Western Country's needed cheaper products to make more profit....so we all went to China and gave them the economic power they now have , and in turn the $'s to build a strong military.....they hate the west , because of past transgressions .....past history shapes the future!

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Optimist Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:21pm

And the Chinese have named their quantum computer JIUZHANG…meaning “old grudge” ..or “old score to settle”…that could be a problem.

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Hutchy 19 Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:22pm

Brutus - lets look at China .

Ever heard of Genghis Khan ?

The Mongols were one of the greatest colonizers of ALL time . Also one of the best at raping , pillaging and massacring .

Make the US and English seem like novices .

The US only had Indians when this happened .

Alexander the Great . Caesar and the Romans , The Muslims . All good rapers , pillagers , doing massacres but also excellent at Slavery .

Please take your western hating blinkers off which may help you to see reality .

You never responded to my question on who would have been a better country to have colonized Australia .

I did put China ( Mongols ) in the list of possibles .

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:37pm

好吧,婴儿潮

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:39pm

Anyway, from Boomertown to something useful for the kids:

https://indigenousx.com.au/10-questions-i-get-from-non-indigenous-students/

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:42pm

Wouldn't Australia be a great place to come to visit if it was discovered through google earth and Indigenous folk still roamed the country.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:53pm
brutus wrote:

Indo, guilt is something you feel when you first come across an issue of the past, that pertains to yourself and possibly your ancestors/countrymen who were responsible....that initial feeling is then dealt with as you learn from past mistakes , which means now we have understood why there are past issues ...such as colonialism....what the affects are and then we change and make more better today's culture and lifestyle.... .

Sorry, you have it very wrong.

GUILT is a feeling you should have after an event involving YOUR own negative actions or lack of YOUR actions to prevent a negative situation unfolding.

EMPATHY is what all of us should have when we learn of people being affected by negative events, be it current or in the past.

Empathy being the ability to put ourself in the shoes of others and imagine how it must have been or felt, this can then bring other feelings like sadness.

For instance i feel zero guilt for anyones actions of the past, but i feel a sense of sadness for those who suffered in the past, because i have empathy.

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bluediamond Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 5:53pm
Constance B Gibson wrote:

好吧,婴儿潮

hahahahaha. Gold!!!! And apt for 'old' mate.

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groundswell Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 7:01pm

好的婴儿潮一代
or
好的婴儿潮

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Constance B Gibson Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 7:17pm

Hutchy 91 & id:

Kaat wara.

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tubeshooter Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 at 8:36pm
Hutchy 19 wrote:

Tubes - my first hand experiences with Aboriginal people is extremely limited . Like most Australians and probably like most who comment on this thread .

Limited to second hand feedback . Like a close friend ( teacher ) and his wife ( midwife ) who wanted to do some "field research " and planned to work and help in an Aboriginal community for 5 years . They left after 2 years due to feeling unwelcome and unwanted .

Limited to my reading and watching TV to learn more . Hence the official stats which you seem to think are not relevant .

My views are then RANTS . I get constant aduse . I have a White Australia mentality . I am a Red Neck .

You say I really need to do "field research " before my views will be considered . You then say I won't last 5 minutes in and Aboriginal community . I also wonder how my youngest daughter would be treated in an ALL Aboriginal school . She also would probably only last 5 minutes and she is as left as you can get .

I also see that you all have treated EVERY other person who like me who wants to help and learn more .

Smiley -"Sadly, we have all been here before, the same dogged intransigence, the same narrow view, the same cherry picked (CP) information sources and arguments:"

You view my views as unworthy . You want me to fuck off .

I asked what real experience you had, didn't say your views wouldn't be considered , but I'll certainly stick them on the bottom of the pile after that response. Don't get defensive mate. And as I've stated before , no , I don't want anyone to fuck off. Problem here is you go on and on and on about shit you have no idea of. I get that you want to do some bleeding heart , armchair expert bullshit and that your intentions are probably good. However it just doesn't work that way if you want a real understanding of Aboriginal culture , identity and how they perceive us white carnts in general.
Your youngest daughter would be fine in a school full of aboriginal kids. They don't have the same baggage the rest of us seem to have. And for the record , I went to high school in a predominately aboriginal area. Others on here also come from places of experience , never assume anything about anyone on here, hence the question I asked.
I'm not trying to pick on you mate , just wondering why you're trying to solve a problem that's going to take generations to overcome.
If you want to help , it starts with littlest of things , attitude. And that's the reason I doubt you'd last in that world. They hate white knights on their big horses trying to fix shit without having a clue.
Again, appreciate your input Hutchy , and if I wanted certain people to fuck off from SN there'd only be about 5 of us left , and what fun would that be.
But in this instance , , less is more if you really want to learn.

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tubeshooter Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 12:34am

A new one from Briggs

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indo-dreaming Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 8:28am

@Hutchy

Dont let people try to tell you if your experience is limited with Aboriginal people you can't share a view, if that was the case people here wouldn't be able to say much on half the threads here.

Im a huge believer in the value of real life experience but this is such a broad topic where it's only one small aspect, personally I've had plenty of interaction with Indigenous people all through my life 99% experiences being very positive, but this isn't about my or others interaction or experiences with individuals, its about so much more, history, affects of history responsibilities of history, its about culture and clashing of cultures, it's about the things most of us are never going to see or experience like all the areas where indigenous community's are failing, all the stats around these things, it's about misinformation and misleading narratives pushed by media or misguided social justice warriors like deaths in custody, it's about the government and what they should do or not do, it's about theories and ideas on what affects if any a treaty may bring or not bring....and about plenty more not related to personal experience.

In some ways personal experience in this case could actually be a disadvantage in providing a bias by looking at your personal experience instead of looking at the much larger very broad picture.

You're an Aussie, you live here, you vote for the government that are often held responsible for failings or issues around indigenous matters, or signing of treaties etc

Your view might not be what others agree with or want to hear, hell even i might not agree with your view or sometimes i might, but its your right as much as others to have your say, don't every let people tell you it isn't.

The only reason they tell you you shouldn't be commenting on this thread, is because they don't want your view's aired because they only want to hear the views they believe in, generally very close minded people with very set views.

BTW. My advice is also try to ignore the one line sideline snipes and dont engage with them, as you would have noticed they are ALWAYS from the same people, much better to just engage with the people who are actually here to have a discussion, also very clear who they are and even if they dont agree with you they generally wont say you dont have a right to your say.

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brutus Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 9:29am
indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:

Indo, guilt is something you feel when you first come across an issue of the past, that pertains to yourself and possibly your ancestors/countrymen who were responsible....that initial feeling is then dealt with as you learn from past mistakes , which means now we have understood why there are past issues ...such as colonialism....what the affects are and then we change and make more better today's culture and lifestyle.... .

Sorry, you have it very wrong.

GUILT is a feeling you should have after an event involving YOUR own negative actions or lack of YOUR actions to prevent a negative situation unfolding.

EMPATHY is what all of us should have when we learn of people being affected by negative events, be it current or in the past.

Empathy being the ability to put ourself in the shoes of others and imagine how it must have been or felt, this can then bring other feelings like sadness.

For instance i feel zero guilt for anyones actions of the past, but i feel a sense of sadness for those who suffered in the past, because i have empathy.

Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation continuing for past crimes against humanity that includes all generations of Germans , past and Present.

when I read Groundswells post..... "I used to party in Sydney with two German girls who were on holidays here being nannies. I asked them if they are proud of being German and they both said "no! what do you think?" like two world wars was something to be ashamed of when they were'nt even born yet...anyway ive hung out with a lot of Germans and they all seem ashamed of those points."

the collective Guilt is born by the Nation of Germany , there is still shame/embarrassment and guilt for what happened in Germany for a period of 15 years.......empathy and sadness maybe from other Nations......but also disbelief and anger at how did this happen. To this day Israel is still hunting Nazi's and prosecuting them....and every year the Chancellor of Germany goes to Israel to the Holocaust Museum.....so Germany does not forget it's genocidal Plans for the Jewish people!
Studying Colonialism also brings about the same emotions, guilt being one of them , as our Nation Australia was built on Colonialist values .
So as we learn more and more about our past thru eg the Yoo-rrook Justice commission and trying to establish a Treaty ....part of our journey should be at least to listen to the new evidence/story's and for the first time we are hearing directly from the Australians who were affected by political policies such as the White Australia Policy and the Stolen generation....

So when confronted with the atrocities of past colonial deeds and the continuing affects that these policy's have today , you say ," no guilt here , makes me sad and I do have empathy , but nothing to do with me !"

I say take ownership of our Colonial past , warts and all....the life I lead and you lead today is based on an ever changing narrative of history which is still being unravelled and it ain't pretty ..but it's real ..

How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness???

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brutus Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 9:40am
Optimist wrote:

And the Chinese have named their quantum computer JIUZHANG…meaning “old grudge” ..or “old score to settle”…that could be a problem.

Hi Optimist , yeah China hates the West , read a lot about "old Grudge".....when you check out the History of when the Colonial West invaded China and repercussions on the Chinese people , their is a blind hatred ....and yeah they have no respect or trust for the West....
That's what i find amazing with our First Nations people , there is no hatred only a need for education and understanding so respect can be re-established through truth telling and then the trust will come....

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brutus Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 10:00am

when I read about a country becoming Independent from it's colonial past, what a great example Barbados is...get rid of the Queen and work towards a fully independent Country.....Australia will also do the same thing one day soon!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/21/barbados-elects-first-pres...

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indo-dreaming Friday, 22 Oct 2021 at 10:11am

[qoute]

Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation

How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness???

Germany and Germans dont all have one collective guilt mentality, they as you say are split on opinion.

And it would be wrong to judge Germans or Germany as a country on the actions of a minority, most no longer alive.

And to suggest those that say its the past and nothing to do with us become neo nazis, is just crazy talk.

Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity.

Every single ethnic group on earth has ugly history's in some way, most countries have been fought over and blood spilt, even indigenous history and culture is full of tribal conflict, misogyny even cannabilism, but im sure very few expect current Aboriginals to feel guilt for this.

People should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of their ethicitys past or present.