Firewire LFT

You’ve got to bump your comment onto the front page - as you’ve just done - or no one knows it exists.

Jono why is this so..why cant it just show on front page ?

Roughly 2 years ago had a board in lft.
Compared to other firewire constructions at the time ,It appeared to feel more like a normal pu construction , had a bit of flex and zap to it. was bloody light and super responsive .
After 6 or 7 months got a nasty compression in the middle of the board that didn't go all the way to the rails. Had a fairly experienced ding repair guy fix it, broke within two surfs.
I got another in lft but It fell out of favour, probably due to the shape and dimensions.
For me, lft is comparable to pu construction when looking at durability . They seem to get a few dents and compressions fairly easily.
Im currently riding a helium constructed firewire which if you believe all the bullshit in their sales pitch, is supposed to be a lot stronger. ( snapped one two months ago ).
Love the boards but they've all got their breaking point.

Actually the LFT and helium technology break more than any other board even PU's. I see them in repair shops all over the world , either being repaired or just binned as you cannot repair creases , and repair guys normally charge 2-3 x PU repairs...their Technology has got weaker not better over the last 2 years!

Thats true, the earlier FW builds were much more durable.

FR , the original FW's were just about bullet proof , still see the odd one getting repaired , rock solid.....however their new stuff is just a watered down version of the originals , very weak and disposable now and very expensive ...go figure!

Fst was the go,seems when Kelly bought in it went south.

Ive had them all.

IMHO LFT is similar to a lightly glassed PU/PE board in feel and durability, yeah you could say might as well buy a PU/PE board.

FST is now being phased out with Helium replacing it, FST was super durable but IMHO Hellium is better less rigid deck but rails and bottom same as FST, that less rigid deck helps with a more traditional feel and like many i like slight deck wells.

I had FST way back when plugs and in recent years, and yeah possible more durable originally but its really a compromise between durability and feel, i still think Hellium is a great progression.

Timber tek is good as doesn't go yellow, but IMHO its feels the most stiff and over the years in areas it can get tiny areas where water gets too timber and goes darker brown, around fins plugs etc

Personally my snapage rate on FW boards over the years is the same or better than PU/PE (i still have PU/PE boards too)

I think you need to understand there is a difference between a board being more durable and strength in regard to snapping, a board can be more durable to dings, shatter etc but if it's going to snap its going to snap and sometimes it happens in 2ft waves sometimes you come up after a heavy double overhead set expecting to see you board in half and no issues.

So Indo which fire wire are you currently riding?

I have two FST boards stashed in Indo(Hellfire my fav board they no longer do, and a Pyzelalien), and 1 FST (Nev-hashtag), 1 helium (baked potato) and 1 timbertek(spitfire) here in Oz..

Sold my LFT board Evo, nothing wrong with them just wasn't into the board, dont think id buy another LFT board new, but if i saw a LFT board i liked second-hand at a good price id get it.

I generally just ride FW boards for the durability factor especially for traveling, but also ride PU/PE and other EPS/epoxy.

In regard to FST, Helium, Timbertek, pretty rare to get an open ding the small ones ive had have happened all out of the water, like from airlines and small match head size punctures that i still have no idea how they happen, ive always sealed them up so never had one ding that has resulted in sucking water that i know off, no evidence of yellowing or mould after sealed up (had about ten or more FW's)

Have snapped one FST clean in half though in overhead Indo waves and creased one (didn't break glass and was fixed to reinforce) ive never had any other issues like delams etc

But yeah from my limited experience with LFT it's more prone to cracks and open dings, and what I've seen on second hand board racks confirms this, i guess because it's just standard cloth and epoxy resin, doesn't have a composite type deck skin or reinforced rail like their other builds.

It begs the question, why aren't composite deck skins and bottom skins industry standard.
I was recently checking out Bert Burgers Sunova tech videos on youtube.
When you see how strong and light these boards are, why would anyone get a weak as piss shitty 4oz glass job ever again.
Check out the Sunova tech series, there are several vids.
Here is one of them.

If you want get a full understanding of composite core construction check out this vid by the 'tech ingredients' guy. He explains things so well using words and visual demonstrations.

why?

Because Pu/pe's feel better for most people, are cheap and feature the best designs.

Actually FR , the cheap EPS/Epoxy that is coming out of Asia , is much cheaper to make than a PU /PE board made in Australia.
Since Kelly bought FW , the quality has gone backwards as now they are just hand laminated on $5 blanks , with a lot of Bells and whistles , fake carbon etc.....I would guesstimate the boards would be landed in Aust at $150 , so big margins , but disposable surfboards !

Sharkman

I ride a lot of FW boards had my first back when they had the venting plugs the quality has not gone backwards.

The difference since Kelly is:

The focus has gone from durability FST(composite construction) previously all boards offered were available in FST that was the focus other constructions were provided more as alternative options.

Under Kelly the focus is on LFT (non composite construction) that is nowhere as durable, not even in the same ball park as FST or even Hellium or Timer tek or even their crappy old no longer produced Rapid fire.

However the feel is as close to PU/PE as you will get with a EPS/Epoxy board (even centre stringer)

The reason, id assume the change is to try to capture guys from a PU/PE market the younger guys the more high performance aspect, this is also reflected in shapes offered. pretty much all boards are now offered in LFT but not more durable constructions Hellium, Timber tek.

(As mentioned Hellium has even taken over from FST even though it's a less durable construction, decks are softer on purpose, IMHO helium is an improvement on FST)

It's obviously a business strategy to take FW from being more of a old mans and kook type boards and mostly hybrid type shapes (especially after Taj left)

To competing more directly with PU/PE boards and i guess aiming at a bigger market, the visual aspects of the board are part of that, having painted racing type stripes is not fake carbon.

While still being able to capture that older man and kook market or those just after sa more durable board with Helium and timber tek..

I guess the downside of this is guys jump on a LFT board it's durability is not much different to a PU/PE board and then guys think all FW boards are of a same durability or think like you do that quality has gone down hill. (when its really a different product aimed at a different market)

If guys still want a durable board, Hellium or Timber tek will provide a board that is 2 to 3 more durable than LFT or a standard glassed PU/PE board.

Not sure how you know the exact figure on the blanks seeing they are cut from huge blocks of EPS but yeah $5 wouldn't surprise me and yeah I'm sure their margins are big, thats just smart business...im happy to pay $900 for a board that goes good and last like a helium or Timber tek FW board, but yeah as ive said in previous post, maybe not for a LFT board (yeah i agree might as well just buy a PU/PE board)

Worst thing they could do though is sell their boards at a low price with normal margins, if they did it would hurt local board makers because they would possible sell for $300-$400 which would need to mean they need to sell twice as many boards, and it wouldn't be smart business to piss everyone off plus cheapen the brand plus lose out on profit.

I don't think LFT surfs like a pu/pe at all.

Feels nothing like it.

Feels exactly like what it is : lightweight eps core with an epoxy lam.

Each to their own, if two boards were painted over the glass i dont think i could tell the difference. from surfing alone.

Id love to see this experiment done with a group of surfer of different abilities.

If LFT surfed like a pu/pe and was as durable as a pu/pe, why would you pay a premium for it?

You can't tell the difference between an epoxy/eps core and a Pu/pe?

I think most people can and that is why the pu/pe continues to be the dominant board construction method.

They feel like chalk and cheese to me.

As for surfing just look at how well Kelly is riding his current board and im pretty sure its a pu.

Exactly Freeride like i basically said in a few post up i don't see the point of buying LFT only time id ever buy it is if i saw a really good deal second-hand and it was a shape and dims i wanted.

Most people ride PU/PE boards by default it's what we all have been brought up surfing most of us stick to what we know and like, nothing wrong with that.

It's also what most shapers produce, it's what they know and are set up to produce it's also the easiest to produce there is also really no incentive to produce boards with a longer lifespan(Composite) it's a niche market,

The idea that one is better than the other is just personal preface, but there is clear advantages in durability for an epoxy composite construction, for me this is a big advantage traveling..

As for Kelly he has been a fan of EPS/Epoxy for years before he bought into FW he almost always swaps between the two, him surfing good on either PU/PE or EPS/Epoxy doesn't confirm one is better than the other, much more likely that it's the shape that works.

My last two shorties have been PU/Epoxy. Has a lovely feel in the water.
Surfs quite like PU/PE but has just something in the feel. Not really sure what it is.

Same, last two are PU/Epoxy. The feel is similar, and the epoxy seems to resist deck dings better, after 2 and 4 years the boards are in much better condition ding-wise on the deck rails than PU/PE.

IME I reckon it pressure dings about the same but you can knock it and not get those little shatters as it's less brittle.

Indo , you have a very narrow view of how spineless/ eps/epoxy performs , what sort of waves do you surf mostly ?

there are so many things you have said that are not true , like the Fake Carbon , being just racing stripes , when you see custom Slater designs they have real carbon , not just laminated black lines.....

The quality has dropped , a lot , really average finishes , number1# in the repair shops , breaks easy , when you get a ding , blank fills with water , always trying to get a cheap EPS core to feel like PU / not even close yet , so why trying to get it feel like a PU ........because it's price point on the blank !!

then their business practices are consignment , which is" immoral business practice " end of quote Patagonia....and Kelly looks way better on PU 's!

"Indo, you have a very narrow view of how spineless/ eps/epoxy performs , what sort of waves do you surf mostly ?"

Im not sure why you think that, actually the complete opposite is true, I have a very wide view of how EPS/Epoxy preforms there is much greater variations than PU/PE .

Most PU/PE boards are constructed with similar blank densities and glassing schedules, so taking away design the variability is minimal, but yeah there is a big difference in durability, feel and even performance between different EPS/epoxy builds.

EPS/Epoxy builds even within Firewires range vary greatly in construction, durability, feel.

Thats the whole point of my first few post to the OP.

You obviously don't understand this because you have not once mentioned what construction you are talking about LFT is a basic EPS/Epoxy board with centre stringer that as i have said is really not much more durable than a standard PU.PE board of a similar weight.

FST, Hellium and timber tek are all much much more durable with FST IMHO being about three times more durable than LFT or a standard PU/PE board.

And then from board maker to board maker EPS/Epoxy boards vary greatly in construction, durability, feel.

BTW, if by spineless you mean no stringer, all FW boards have a stringer, LFT has a centre stringer, FST and Hellium & timber tek have parabolic rail stringers that seem to be a big factor in adding durability to the rails one of the most vulnerable areas of a surfboard to damage.

Ive surfed FW and other EPS/Epoxy boards in all kinds of waves between 2 to 6ft+ from lumpy rip beachies, to reefs, to points to perfect Indo waves.

Argh yes im betting you are a shaper, had this conversation with many shaper who feel threatened by FW success.

Im a consumer i have to pay for my boards if they don't last or don't go, i don't buy them, i ride PU/PE but also EPS/Epoxy i love trying different builds if i had the money id buy them all, I've also been riding FW boards from the venting plug era until today so i know when people say this or that about quality that it's basically BS..

And i always find it funny people think they know all about FW boards when they have very little experience in riding and owning them, compared to myself who has had about a dozen or more FW boards of varying designs and builds.

Ive given direct feed back to FW reps and even Mark and the funny thing is the progression has been exactly what i would like, (except the progression to LFT IMHO i think that is a mistake, because it confuses people they buy LFT it doest last and then they think FW boards parent durable).

Have i noticed a reduction in quality?

NO not at all and if i go check them out in the racks the quality is very good and consistent.

Has durability decreased yes LFT is not a composite construction board and as mentioned many times now durability similar to a standard PU/PE board..

FST has always been virtually bullet proof but has been replaced by Helium that yes is slightly less durable, as a slightly lighter blank, with a softer deck IMHO this is an improvement, its actually something ive given FW reps and even Mark Price feedback on and wanted (obviously didn't change it for me, but there must have been many others giving similar feedback)

So personally im stoked IMHO it's now the perfect build in every way possible , i like a deck to sink a little but like a bullet proof bottom, was never really into the timber look of the rails of FST and they have even improved the ugly FW logo, maybe early days but it also seems that perhaps the new boards yellow less than the older FW boards which was also a negative, weird to have a mint condition board that is yellow, and yellow boards even if mint lose resale value.

In regard to being number one in repair shops, again you need to state the construction id be very very surprised if you see many FST boards or even Hellium even Timber tek boards, but not at all surprised if you see a lot of LFT boards.

Also the generally popularity of FW, SD, Tomos is always going to be factor more boards out there more boards that will get dinged even with increased durability, some people just dont treat boards well

Most guys also wont try to repair their own EPS/ epoxy boards as has a reputation of being harder to work with, if i had a decent open ding on a PU/PE board id fix it myself no worries, if i had one on an EPS/Epoxy board i dont think id attempt it, id get it professionally fixed.

But as mentioned in FST, Helium,Timber tek only dings ive had are out of the water and very small, ive had no issues with sucking water, because ive never had an open ding in the water.

In regard what Kelly looks best on.

According to Mark when Kelly bought FW Kelly said he wanted a mix of PU/PE boards and EPS.Epoxy boards and for them to be painted all the same, he basically didn't want to have any cognitive bias, although you would think he could still tell the difference from picking them up sand looking and feeling them.

It's actually quote funny because half the time when guys are going Kelly should get back on PU/PE boards he surf so much better on them etc...reality has been those boards have been PU/PE.

My personal view is different constructions just offer slightly different pros and cons and are not always necessarily better, just different.

Although that said i think EPS/Epoxy boards keep that new lively feel longer.

The explanation of have heard for this is in the foam Polyurethane foam when flexed has fatigue those little cells get crushed, same deal with dings go press a unglassed blank and you will leave a finger mark dent.

EPS has better memory when it flexes cells dont get crushed as much and returns to true shape so has less fatigue hence reading that lively fell, go press an unglassed EPS blank and it will rebound to original shape.

This is one of the reasons EPS is favoured for epoxy and one reason why it is often more resistant to dings (even when not a composite construction)

Incorrect.

The reason EPS is favoured for epoxy is PE resin burns straight through an EPS blank.

If using an EPS blank you can only use an Epoxy resin to laminate with.

If using a PU blank you can use either Epoxy or Polyester (PE) resins.

Note how i said one reason.

BTW. Maurice why are we having this conversation again :D

Gee Indo , seems like we live in different worlds , I see FW as watered down from its original technology , I think the PU/PE is way stronger than Heliums/FST's , but then that's just a bit of a global view , a lot of what you say about EPS , which is the expanded not the extruded Polystyrene......which does not like windy offshore conditions or bump....and basically the cheapest big celled EPS , and does not perform anywhere near as much as you think ......I think you haven't surfed a PU for awhile with an epoxy glass job , some of my PU/Epoxy boards go back more than 30 years ...made 1000 's of EPS , Spineless and stringered ones.....PU' s always favourite magic boards never had a great EPS , which is what I see with Kelly....
It's not being jealous of FW/Slater , its just a much cheaper construction , boards are breaking and dinging Globally , they are not eco/sustainable s/bds , and then they do consignment Globally , so they have done more damage to the Global surfboard industry than any other Co/Brand ,some people like asian popouts , some like custum boards of a shaper!

“Argh yes im betting you are a shaper,”

classic

It wasn't a guess though, he knew full well who he is.

@Lostdoggy

When i made that comment I honestly didn't click but it was obvious it was a shaper

Id forgotten Sharkman is Maurice, then latter that day someone outside of here, commented to me about my post and tipped me off, as soon as they did, i was like off course..OMG shark man is Maurice we have done this whole topic before.

BTW. Maurice I will get back to posting a reply but cant be bothered now

from a different thread regarding blowing agents ..
meet the foam blowers .. https://www.carvemag.com/2018/01/meet-the-foam-blowers-pro-foam/

the board in the photo's was just pointed out to me from the crew in the USA , they thought I did it on purpose , but it's a board from a guy who broke it at Ocean Grove , yeah the beach break , very interesting to see what's inside them ?
Really cheap shit .....is what's inside , and they are worse every year !

Let it go Indo , its actually nice to hear someone who has good experiences with FW , but I am afraid you are in a very small minority!

If that was true, then you wouldn't be posting here, you wouldn't feel threatened or jealous, you would just be sitting back laughing as FW fails, but they are not there has been ups and down but end of the day they continue to grow, some of the best shapers in the world work with FW, the best surfer ever to live could have bought into any board label but he bought into FW.

Obviously none of us saw it coming, but i do know Kelly had ridden Tajas FW boards and really like the tech (remember Kellys GF and Taja's KF connection)

Reality is end of the day if you don't have a decent product it doesn't matter how good you market something, people will find you out you will get a bad reputation and you will lose your return customer base, which you would know is very important especially when you have a limited customer base and sell a product at premium price..

Maybe there is something we all dont know here about your interactions with Nev or Mark etc

Anyway yes we do live in different worlds.

You are a respected shaper with a focus on PU/PE boards with a 1980 mindset on what EPS/Epoxy boards are probably never ridden a FW board or most likely not ridden EPS/Epoxy for years, you are judging it off what you have produce or ridden in the past.

And i am a consumer with only so much of a budget for surfboards who has ridden a great number of FW boards in a variety of constructions for over ten years. (plus a few other EPS/Epoxy builds)

I get people might like yourself might not like the FW business model especially those who make surfboards, or might not even like EPS/Epoxy boards like Freeride, each to their own.

But to suggest a standard PU/PE board is more durable than a EPS/Epoxy composite construction surfboard is just absolutely ridiculous, it's not even remotely in the same ball park.

My FW composite boards (FST, Timber tek) boards last at least 2 to 3 times longer than a standard PU/PE board or compared to a very light glassed board that most likely has a softer density blank, god i dont know Al merricks ive had have been more beaten up in 6 months than FST FW boards ive had for six years.

Initially when i started riding FW in FST i thought you cant have a board that is too durable, but then over time like i said its been a slight complaint that the decks dont sink a little to get those slight deck wells so your board feels moulded to your feet as mentioned im stoked on Hellium with the softer deck that allows slight foot wells.

It also just goes against reality and the science, there is no argument that expoy resin is a more durable resin especially when combined with composite construction.

Yes it's possible to make a very durable surfboard from PU/PE the problem is to do so you need a high density blank and a heavy glass job which then increases weight and reduces flex.

Basically the complete opposite of a high performance surfboard and why pro surfers get boards glassed lighter than your average joe, anyone who's ridden a very lightly glassed board will know how great they go, if durability wasn't a factor im sure most guys would get them glassed the same.

The advantage of EPS/Epoxy is you can get a more durable surfboard while still being light, and if you want to get extra strength you can get an EPS/Epoxy composite construction, however doing this you gain weight and boards stiffen up (vacuum bagging helps reduce resin needed)

No matter PU/PE EPS/Epoxy you basically need to find a compromise somewhere between weight, durability, flex.

In a PU/PE surfboard with standard stringer these things vary very little blank density plus glassing schedule. (or things like adding carbon fibre) and very slight differences in blanks etc.

With a EPS/Epoxy surfboard with different foam densitys, different or no stringers, composite or no composite, different deck skins etc these change the three import factors of how they ride etc. (obviously excluding design aspects)

1. flex (and rebound rates)
2. weight
3. Durability

I guess a fourth long term could be memory/fatigue.

However even some of these aspects change with board design for instance a thinner, narrower, longer surfboard is going to flex more than a short, wide. thick surfboard no matter the construction.

The cliche view that EPS/Epoxy rides windy conditions or bump comes down to two things.

Wind= Weight of the board lighter boards get blown around and dont have the weight to help push against wind as you drop down a face etc, if you get two boards of same shape/area/design PU/PE or EPS/Epoxy of the same weight, they are going to be affected exactly the same by the wind.

Basically the wind doesn't know what is inside your board, its irrelevant.

Bump: Comes down to flex and weight and i guess is more complicated, a very light stiff board is unable to absorb shock, bumps, while a heavier stiffer board might not be able to absorb the shock but can push though it i guess.

Yes EPS/Epoxy boards can be stiffer if combined with a composite construction.

Personally with EPS/Epoxy ive only noticed this a few times.

1. On a old surf tech board someone gave me, it was very stiff and felt every bump, id really notice it on my local rip banks it was like ridding one of those fake rodeo cows.

2. On very short, wide, thick EPS/Epoxy boards, where the board is naturally stiffer.

Other times no issues at all.

BTW. Where i live Phillip Island my beachies as you would know are rip banks, rarely ever total smooth even on offshore days.

IMHO with all respect you are basing your knowledge on your experience of old tech its 2019 we can even measure these things now like flex, rebound rates etc Firewire have even tried to use them to as selling points compared to PU/PE imho that is just all marketing crap, i never claim EPS/Epoxy preforms better than PU/PE IMHO it is just different but just as good and has durability advantages.

BTW. A few years back i said id never buy a PU/PE board again and got rid of all my PU/PE boards except my vintage boards, but in recent years ive started ridding PU/PE again sometimes basically just to mix things up and keep things fresh.

I mostly just pick up second hand PU/PE boards i might like, but i also appreciate custom PU/PE boards.

My next board im planning to buy will actually be a custom from the guy who shaped my first custom (you might even know him from your Vicco days Also Colk) im planning to get basically get a modern 80s type shape with a full on full 80s spray, which im expecting will end up costing more than any FW board.

So yes i also appreciate custom PU/PE boards.

I'm 90kg and there is only one layer of 4oz S cloth glass between me and the PU foam. I have 6'1"s 6'4"s 6'8"s and they all last for ages.They get a few comfort dents but don't break. Only My Gun with a 1/4" stringer and a 6/4 deck (7 years old and perfect cant bust it) is the exception. They flex and have spark to spare even after a year. They are also Australian made as they should be. If I do get an epoxy, it will be an Aussie made spine tech fish. I'm for the Aussie industry as we do everything better. Ask the pros, see what they ride.

I am not laughing at FW fails , just pointing out that the bullshit marketing is exactly that , they are not eco/sustainable surfboards , they have an immoral business formula , called "consignment" , so there's a lot of hype which a lot of core customers are now turning away.......

So Asian made popouts claiming to be Eco Surfboards , made cheaply so they become disposable surfboards , NOT sustainable in any way or form.....I get to see all the major markets , such as USA/France/Japan /Australia and see how many fall apart , just wondering Indo is Philip Island / Indonesia your only point of reference?

What makes Consignment an immoral Business formula ?

I got given an old LFT Tomo board with a small crease. Note that it does have a deck skin - I checked the FW website and it seems normal for LFT. Not sure why it’s being mentioned in this thread as having no deck skin...

From my sample size of one:
*Very fragile glass job
* handles choppy surf better than stringed EPS epoxies I have owned (have ridden them for about 8 years)
* has some of the “spark” that these stringered epoxies had, but a bit more dampened

I certainly wouldn’t pay more for it than a PU board, but I like the way it surfs.

If i said LFT doesn't have deck skins above then sorry, but they are much thinner only 1mm pretty much useless while FST, Timber tek skins are 3mm, believe Helium is 1m deck skin with 3m on bottom, this is were the real durability comes from (plus reinforced rails), they market it as "areospace composite deck skins" which admittedly is just marketing BS I forgot the name of the material but it's nothing new, its basically a very very dense type foam.

This video explains and shows cut profile of boards as you can see clearly LFT is much thinner less durable construction.

Just my 2 cents Supafreak.
Had heaps of FW both FST and LFT. FST have always been more durable (but have broken a bunch). LFT more sparky and responsive but that may be that I've always had Tomos in that technology. I don't think that LFT tech or quality control has changed since I bought a Vader when they came out. Have broken the same number of boards then as now.

The tomo customs are not XTR. They are a (probably) good quality stringerless EPS blank with a standard epoxy layup + carbon.