What's what?

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Shatner'sBassoon started the topic in Friday, 6 Nov 2015 at 7:48pm

AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.

LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.

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Fliplid Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 4:45pm

Or how about “Help protect Australia from politicians sending taxpayers money to overseas tax havens ”?
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/barnaby-joyce-angus-taylor-australia-and-...

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Westofthelake Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 5:06pm

Good read Fliplid.
I saw Barnaby on tv today getting all beet rooty as he preached his innocence whilst blaming QLD state Labor.

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truebluebasher Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 7:05pm

Barnaby is right that both Qld/Federal Labor had dealings with said parties
They did also wish to maintain water basin in Qld as any Qld Govt would.
Labor say all dealings were fully tendered & fully receipted.

Difference being...
Barnaby's own department recommended against the deal & price.
Barnaby never tendered for pretend water buyback @ record price.
Cayman Islands Invisible receipt trail & all Oz documents are heavily redacted.
Noting Taylor's Company also donated a large sum to Liberals & became Lib MP!

Now go & fetch the kidz to point out to Barnyard where he might have fucked up!

Qld Govt is involved with all Cotton farmers in a big way...especially water.
Only natural defence for Barnaby is to involve ALP & said Qld Cotton Farmers.

NEWS will dig up Labor's open trail as Libs destroyed theirs.(Labor's name is mud)
tbb is in no way supporting Labor's deals only agreeing that Libs deals smell putrid.

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velocityjohnno Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 8:51pm

"vj if the government subsidies for the fossil fuel industry were removed in an orderly manner and redirected to solar we could easily be close to zero emissions within a decade. It is a myth pushed by the fossil fuel industry and their political lackeys that the transition would be a significant economic disruption."

Yep and if it were done with some decent planning the actual manufacture of the parts could be local, with an ongoing replacement demand for mining, refining and replacing the parts creating a sustainable industrial base. From what I know of technology in Australia, the harsh climate dictates that you don't have to have the most technologically advanced equipment, but you do need to have the most reliable, tough, hard wearing equipment. We could develop products in this vein.

"Solar power, all over the desert, and big arse ord river scheme type dam to store the power, irrigating farms in the process. Plus a big arse thick extension cable connecting and selling the power to asia."

Yep, I think Tim Flannery floated the idea of a 'Solar City' centrally located doing just this.

Electric cars are bubbling at present (particularly in China), and will correct and then consolidate, we could also develop these with an onus on range, reliablility, toughness. What works in the Simpson will be valued in the Gobi or the Sahara...

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sypkan Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 9:22pm

"Yep and if it were done with some decent planning the actual manufacture of the parts could be local, with an ongoing replacement demand for mining, refining and replacing the parts creating a sustainable industrial base. From what I know of technology in Australia, the harsh climate dictates that you don't have to have the most technologically advanced equipment, but you do need to have the most reliable, tough, hard wearing equipment. We could develop products in this vein."

Anyone want to hazard a guess why labor don't present a cohesive plan to the public like this?

They kind of hint at it occasionally, or dream about it half heartedly, but never ever even propose a loose cohesive plan. They just seem to fumble and bumble their way through, election to election with half baked carbon tax/ETS plans without the balls to go all in.

It probably doesn't fit with their globalisation/free trade commitments I guess, so would probably cause tensions internationally. But, if they proposed a cohesive well thought out plan, with an associated realistic transition program I reckon the public would be all over it like a rash...

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 9:32pm

Heard tonight that Angus Taylor has (declared investments) in companies including one he has a 1/2 share in with another person. That person (not Taylor) additionally had a connection with the very company that made the $50 million profit. Also heard Taylor is a very straight person and highly highly unlikely there was any impropriety on his part but it all adds to the very bad look of barnyard (mis)managing water.

To paraphrase Keating ... never get between a National Party politician and a bucket o.f money or water.

Remind why any rural voter would vote for the drongos in the Nationals again.

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truebluebasher Tuesday, 23 Apr 2019 at 11:58pm

Here's the story of how The Snowy River Clan drank The Murray River dry.
tbb is Warning the crew to fit a lock on your Toilet Seats...The boys are back in town!

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/angus-taylor-...

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 7:30am

"Yep and if it were done with some decent planning the actual manufacture of the parts could be local, with an ongoing replacement demand for mining, refining and replacing the parts creating a sustainable industrial base. From what I know of technology in Australia, the harsh climate dictates that you don't have to have the most technologically advanced equipment, but you do need to have the most reliable, tough, hard wearing equipment. We could develop products in this vein."

And then what happens when china etc develop the same products and sell them for a quarter of the price?

Anyone who manufactures anything in Australia has rock in their heads, seriously if you were a business why would you make anything here?....It's not just labor prices that are a higher, it's every other operating cost, the much less red tape and regulations.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 7:52am

"if the government subsidies for the fossil fuel industry were removed in an orderly manner and redirected to solar we could easily be close to zero emissions within a decade. It is a myth pushed by the fossil fuel industry and their political lackeys that the transition would be a significant economic disruption."

We all know this is complete bollocks, maybe go do some research on Germany.

Not to mention as far as i understand you are not going to be able to get the energy needed with just renewables (and storage problems)

Add to that transition to electric cars is going to hugely increase our energy needs, add to that unless the tech increases greatly you are still going to need certain vehicles to run on petroleum products.

Id also expect electric powered planes and big ships etc are also someway off.

If you want to total get rid of coal, only realistic option is renewables together with nuclear.

But problem is everyone is scared by nuclear and it is expensive to set up and take a long time to do so.

BTW. what are you going to replace all the communities like Latrobe valley etc that rely on coal and gas mining? Just that aspect will cause huge unemployment and communities to virtually turn into ghost towns.

All for what?....to feel good that we reduce our C20 emissions from just over 1% of worldwide emissions to something lower, making close to zero difference in the scheme of things.

It needs a sensible approach a proper transition, doing the transition in a short period of time is not only unrealistic its also silly, by the time you have made the transition and made all the big solar farms or whatever, the tech would most likely be outdated.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 7:44am

Just when you think the ALP is getting half a clue as to their expected role in Australian politics, they revert to form

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/labor-loons-to-give-unlimited-v...

Uncapped !

$10 per week to have your elderly parents lifestyle in Australia paid for by Aussie taxpayers. Meanwhile.......Newstart is unliveable, hospital wait times are untenable and infrastructure can’t even cope with productive members of our society.

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simba Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 7:51am

yep the real labour party is sticking its head up .......this country cant afford to be that generous.

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:29am

Bit of scare-mongering? They can't become citizens and they can't access the visa without health insurance.

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Optimist Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:29am

Labor must be joking...tell me its just a joke.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:46am

So basic health cover - Same beds and doctors which aren’t currently able to satisfy demands. They still rock up to A and E and get taken care of regardless of citizenship. They still provide pressure on every other piece of infrastructure for up to ten .

Where does the scare mongering come into it ? They might not get a Medicare card but they get everything else anyway. They have a heart attack then they’re our problem.

For $10 per week.....

ALP gets votes . What do the Australians paying for it get out of this ?

The current arrangements cost us 3 BILLION DOLLARS per year already. The cost of a new hospital every year . The cost of at least $100/wk more for each Australian new start recipient.

It’s a piss take.

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:45am

The usual macrobullshit. Take the worst case scenario, throw in some miscalculations, neglect to mention the benefits and there you have it. The parents get no support and have to purchase full health insurance. They will also reduce demand for subsidised child care places and, in many cases, bring money into the country that will be spent on local goods and services.
As for not being able to afford it, shit we might have to get rid of franking credits, tax super incomes of $200,000 a year and ban individual and corporate tax avoidance strategies. Shocking stuff, Arthur and Mabel Welltodo will only be able to afford a month in Europe this year and, shock horror, Aloysius and Gretel might miss out on their skiing holiday in Whistler. Drastic stuff. Meanwhile on Newstart, or the NDIS people, through no fault of their own, struggle to live with any dignity. Vote Scomo, support the rich and priveleged! The sense of entitlement comes stinking through this forum at times Aussie Aussie Aussie, eh boys?

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:45am

...and just to delve into it a little deeper.

It's clear that neither party has the cojones to, A) reshore individual and corporate money sitting in tax havens, and B) raise taxes to a level that can support our aging (natural) population through the pension and infirmary years.

And I should note here that with the erosion of superannuation via the gig economy and casualised work, more people will lean on the pension in the future.

So where is that money to come from?

An imported workforce. And you sweeten the deal by making it possible for grandparents to see grandkids.

Not my chosen method but until a party does A and B, then mass immigration is the only way to support what'll happen in twenty years time.

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:47am

"Where does the scare mongering come into it?"

"In one of the craziest policies ever written."

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:53am

It’s mass immigration that has enabled the gig economy and mass casualisation. Excess workers - many of whom will undercut Australians in order to attain residency- allow employers to destroy working conditions.

Blindboy- please reveal the miscalculations you speak of.

Not a single reason these old foreigners should be here. Let alone two sets of parents.

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:56am

"It’s mass immigration that has enabled the gig economy and mass casualisation."

Absolute rubbish. Technology and Work Choices are well above immigration.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 9:00am

It is one of the craziest policies ever written.

LNP corruption takes the form selling out Australia for cash from business.

ALP corruption takes the form of selling out Australia for votes amongst “ ethnic voting blocs”

Australians lose either way.

No reason we should be accomodating unproductive foreign nationals.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 8:59am

Work choices was replaced with mass immigration.

Technology accounts for fuck all.

Uber ......and what else ?

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 9:04am

Entitlement?

It’s Australian money you fucking idiot, BB.

Aussie , Aussie, Aussie.........YES !

And why not ? I am not denying Indian grandparents rights to parasitically suck off the Indians.

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 9:06am

"Technology accounts for fuck all. Uber ......and what else ?"

Joking? You sound like my grandad who just discovered the internet. Digital technology has atomised the work force. Totally reshaped it. And it's done it in countries with large immigration and without.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 9:12am

Tell me how digital technology has “ atomised “ the workforce in Australia.

You think robots are replacing the baristas , servo attendants, cleaners , carpenters and fast food workers in your area ?

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 9:25am

No, but shit, if you're not aware of how over the last decade jobs have been lost to technology, or how work is being reshaped by it, then we're having an asymmetric conversation.

You've picked five service jobs and think that counts for the whole workforce?

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Rabbits68 Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:25am

Apparently Saudi Arabia just beheaded 37 people found guilty of extremism. They then crucified one body & left it on display for a while. Interesting world we live in.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:37am

Technology might replace jobs but it doesn’t generate the casualisation of the workforce.

A couple of wait staff might get the arse at McDonald’s due to auto ordering but it has no impact on the split shifts and rostering of the rest of the staff.

The service industry makes up 70 percent of Australian jobs. Construction industry is also being casualised. Same as most every industry from deckhands to oil rig workers to port workers . How is technology responsible for this ?

It’s not.

The technology furphy is used as cover for the true effect of a flooded labour market who’s participants are being forced to compete to the bottom on wages and working conditions.

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sypkan Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:37am

"And I should note here that with the erosion of superannuation via the gig economy and casualised work, more people will lean on the pension in the future.

So where is that money to come from?

An imported workforce. And you sweeten the deal by making it possible for grandparents to see grandkids."

And in another 10 - 20 years when all those people need more medical services and the pension what are we going to do then?

This is a pyramid scheme where only the wealthiest of the wealthy at the tip can win....for a ahort time...

It's societal suicide

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:38am

No, that's the other thing I mentioned - Work Choices.

The act (and amendments) that greatly favoured employers over workers.

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:40am

@Sykpan,

"This is a pyramid scheme where only the wealthiest of the wealthy at the tip can win...."

100% agree. That's been the goal all along.

 

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sypkan Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 10:41am

"And I should note here that with the erosion of superannuation via the gig economy and casualised work, more people will lean on the pension in the future.

So where is that money to come from?

An imported workforce. And you sweeten the deal by making it possible for grandparents to see grandkids."

And in another 10 - 20 years when all those people need more medical services and the pension what are we going to do then?

People can already see the writing on the wall for there barely being an pension in the not too distant future. There's already pensioners who've done the right thing all their lives falling by the wayside. Female homelessness skyrocketng.

This is a pyramid scheme where only the wealthiest of the wealthy at the very tip can win....for a short time...

It's societal suicide

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 11:16am

Sorry sypkan but you don't know what you are talking about. The visas are for 5 years with one renewal so in 10-20 years they will be back where they came from. You also seem to assume that these people have no income or assets and that their Australian children are too poor to support them. Sounds like stereotyping to me.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 11:20am

Australia doesn’t need the pull factor of looking after every migrants elderly parents . The migrants lobbying for the policy changes are already here.

This is about buying votes using taxpayers money , not about attracting more migrants....like that is an issue.

It’s a scam.

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Blowin Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 11:27am

Figures provided that on average, each parent cost taxpayers approx $440K over the life of their visa.
This is not stereotyping it is fact.

This does not include adding to hospital wait times or impact on infrastructure, congestion or the pressure on the environment. Increase in price of housing. Not to mention more downward pressure on wages.

It’s you who doesn’t know what they are talking about BB.

Australians lose full stop.

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 11:35am

Don't tell me it was macrobullshit again. Or maybe you just made it up!

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 11:41am

Something is amiss:

"...applicants would have to obtain health insurance and any debts they incurred during their stay would have to be guaranteed by sponsors."

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 11:52am

Stu they are failing to disciminate between permanent visas under the existing scheme and the temporary visas which would be increased under Labor's policy. The $410,000 figure they quote is the cost of a parent on a permanent visa and so is completely irrelevant to the new policy.

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stunet Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:07pm

No, what's happened is the $410K figure applies to visas granted prior to the 2016 'Migrant Intake into Australia' report by the PC. The report recommended that sponsors guarantor incurred costs, and as far as I can see that was put in place by the LNP soon afterwards. Labor has said they'd retain it.

The numbers mean nothing now because the policy has been changed.

"Under the recommended changes, a temporary visa for parents would allow them to stay for a longer period of time as long as the sponsoring child met the necessary health and income costs during their stay."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-13/family-reunions-australian-migration-visas-living-costs-report/7838362

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AndyM Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:13pm

On a slight tangent, this interview is potentially interesting, especially for those at opposite ends of the immigration and nationalism spectrums like Blowin and Blindboy.
Well-known philosopher Dr Kwame Anthony Appiah, Professor of Philosophy and Law, claims that local and national self-interest is a natural part of being a cosmopolitan and in fact it would be quite strange for it not to be.
This is very much at odds to what the vested interests and the more sanctimonious would like us to believe.

Hopefully the fact that Amanda Vanstone is the interviewer isn't too much of a turnoff.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/the-importanc...

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:15pm

Agree Stu. In terms of the debate here, the macrobusiness article was structured to be misleading.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:15pm

Been big morning in the emporium, as I see it ....

Automation goes to the heart of the Trump lie to his rust belt voters. They mostly lost their jobs because of it and they are never coming back.

Workchoices #1. The LNP learnt their electoral defeat lesson well and when Abbott was elected the LNP systematically set about relaxing foreign worker visas rules, unstated/covertly, to flood the economy with foreign workers. We now have 1.5 million of them competing with Australian citizens for jobs. Note: while over "offical" unemployment rate is low (people working more than 1 hour per week) our "underemployment" rate remains stubbornly high.

Workchoices #2. For the last 6 years the LNP have stacked the Fair Work Commission (FWC) with politically like-minded people ensuring that minimum wage rates remain low and decisions like that stripping weekend plenty rates from some of the lowest paid Australian workers was assured. In the weeks leading up to the election announcement the LNP appointed (I think) some 30 new commissioners to the FWC for terms of up to 7 years.

Health costs: if anyone is genuinely concerned about our spiralling health care budget they should look at the costs associated with the last 2-3 years of people's lives. The last time I looked 80% of health care costs of a person's life are incurred in this time. Politically, socially and religiously too hot to handle but keeping nan or pop alive for those last couple of years costs the taxpayer a staggering and unsustainable amount of money. I am not advocating anything radical here but in the time of your grandparents or great grandparents many illnesses were not treated, as they are aggressively today, and elderly folk were allowed to die of such illnesses as pneumonia as my pop was. It's a conversation we need to have free of religion and emotion.

Saudi Arabia: Rabbit said earlier "Apparently Saudi Arabia just beheaded 37 people found guilty of extremism. They then crucified one body & left it on display for a while. Interesting world we live in"

That's the same Saudi Arabia that is ruled by a corrupt monarchy, is America's alliance partner in the Middle East (and therefore ours). Home of Sunni muslim tradition, suspected supporter of terrorism in the Middle East and elsewhere and origin of the major terrorist groups the West has been at war with since 9/11. A place where women are treated appallingly just above the status of the huge foreign worker population .... yet Iran a country that holds democratic elections is our enemy. Marvellous how our ME foreign policy directions are driven by the US and Israel.

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loungelizard Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:24pm

so iran is ok purely because it holds "democratic elections" then you bag the usa and israel (both of whom hold democratic elections) in the next sentence. pointing out cant and hypocrisy here pretty unrewarding but sometimes i just cant help myself

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:33pm

Nothing to argue with there Andy. One world, one people! We all belong to a recently evolved species and so are extremely closely related compared to species with longer evolutionary histories. We live in nested structures in which our responsibility decreases with each layer but never becomes zero.
Cosmopolitans accept more responsibility for the outer layers than nationalists. If you read these forums, one minute they are all Aussie, Aussie, Aussie and the next they are complaining about other Australians daring to move into their town. Surfers are particularly prone to this pathetic crap ...... for obvious reasons. Nationalists are also really bad at accepting responsibility for their nation's behaviour. So we have the situation in which many of the immigrants they oppose so vociferously have been displaced by the unjustified actions of the Australian military in support of the US. In short, they have no consistent philosophy beyond pure self-interest, often of the most unenlightened kind.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:38pm

FFS what is remotely democratic about Saudi Arabia?
Are you deliberately being a knucklehead or what?

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sypkan Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 1:11pm

"Sorry sypkan but you don't know what you are talking about. The visas are for 5 years with one renewal so in 10-20 years they will be back where they came from. You also seem to assume that these people have no income or assets and that their Australian children are too poor to support them. Sounds like stereotyping to me."

You are either very naive or so beholden to your beliefs you'll overlook reality. These people will have permanent residency as a minimum on their radar. All temporary visa holders do, be it student, work, or family reunion visas. I know this for a fact, I have worked in the sector, and even helped some with their endeavours...

Also, I don't assume anything about their wealth or position, except the fact that the benefits are far below the long term costs long term, and anyone would use our very generous system before their own cash that they bring. You'd be stupid not to. These people are not stupid, that's one thing that is for certain.

And, that wealth that they bring is a major factor that is pushing cost of living through the roof for everyone already here

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blindboy Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 1:29pm

Whee hoo off with the fairies there old mate! You can't have it both ways. If they are so poor they are a burden to the state, then they won't have the wealth to push up the cost of living. So which is it? Well actually, as the Productivity Commission acknowledge, we don't really know. Too many variables projected too far into the future. By their own admission their's is only a guesstimate of the cost/benefit equation.
"Assessing the fiscal impact of immigration is complex and highly sensitive to the methodology and assumptions used (Nowrasteh 2014). The estimated net impact may shift from positive to negative depending on what government revenue and spending is captured. The estimated fiscal impact is also affected by the period that the assessment covers and whether it includes both the direct and indirect impacts of immigration. "

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sypkan Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 1:25pm

"Automation goes to the heart of the Trump lie to his rust belt voters. They mostly lost their jobs because of it and they are never coming back."

I don't think many people dispute this. But isn't it better for our social cohesion if it is an american/aussie pushing the button on the car, iphone, washing machine robot than us enriching some chinese person to do it?

Nothing against the chinese trying to work their way out of poverty, but it is just dumb to export what menial button pushing jobs there are that are left.

It's most interesting watching indonesia embrace automation, all over the place. Anyone that knows real indonesian wages would think it is better to employ people on a pittance wage in a country where stable jobs are scarce than to enrich silicon valley. It seems the blind faith of the cornicopians and the human propensity to fetishise novelty technology knows no bounds.

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sypkan Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 1:31pm

I never saif they were poor, that's you spoonfeeding my mouth words and making assumptions...again!

They have to be relatively wealthy just to get a gig in oz, that's how it works. Even a phillipino welder has to be relatively skilled and wealthy just to make the cut.

I must say, for a guy that likes to spruik his once working class credentials you are very ignorant and classist!

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sypkan Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 1:50pm

"The service industry makes up 70 percent of Australian jobs. Construction industry is also being casualised. Same as most every industry from deckhands to oil rig workers to port workers . How is technology responsible for this ?

It’s not.

The technology furphy is used as cover for the true effect of a flooded labour market who’s participants are being forced to compete to the bottom on wages and working conditions."

The great globalist economists celebrate oz becoming a dependant 'service industries only economy', whilst flooding the market and selling out on those that are already struggling at the bottom.

It's shameful!

Bloody shameful!

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velocityjohnno Wednesday, 24 Apr 2019 at 1:50pm

The link posted above about Brexit uncertainty leading to reduced UK immigration leading to increasing wages seems to support Sypkan and Blowin's position. A real-time study, if you will.

But back to the theme I was posting on above (going renewable and making it here) - I introduce you all to the electric 79 Series Cruiser Ute. This one spurred by underground particulate emission requirements.

https://mr4x4.com.au/ev-79-series-ecruiser/

https://www.voltra.net.au/

Look like an Aussie company at first glance.

Of course, now we all want the Troopy version with solar panels on the roof :)