The science of Kelly's wave pool - video

Stu Nettle
Swellnet Dispatch

Science Magazine has crafted this explanatory video of the mechanics of Kelly's wave pool. It's a little light on for details, many of the specifics have been covered in comments sections of past articles but here it is all packaged together...well, most of it.

The narrator ends the clip on an unwittintingly philosophical note: "As artificial as it may be," says the breathless fella, "Kelly's wave is redefining the search for the perfect wave."

And he's right, because the wave pool industry is heating up with numerous operators vying for patents to improve wave shape. How much the surfing community values fake waves over nature remains to be seen.

In twenty years from now will a perfect wave pool be part of the litany that includes Malibu, Cape St Francis, Pipeline, Kirra, Teahupoo, Macaronis...?

Comments

slumduck's picture
slumduck's picture
slumduck commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 9:55am

Maybe as a last resort for wave starved coast with a , high population of tourists and frustrated locals.
We are blessed in Australia, such a wasteful exercise in our wave rich coastlines. If you're hanging for a wave, exploration and local knowledge should get you a real wave more often than not.
Local and state governments should invest more in research on improving marginal breaks and reefs. Artificial reef systems can benefit our suburban coasts with positive results in fish and flora , fisheries improve, divers love them.
Keep wave pools for Arizona or Florida pls.
Morning rant after seeing sunrise on empty beach peaks.
Peace and love.

ngs

nogo's picture
nogo's picture
nogo commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 10:45am

Na, build them and we will come and surf them :)

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 11:16am

"We are blessed in Australia"...... and that there is the fallacy. Come to WA, most of the surfers have got big 4WDs for trips down south, or up north. And if you go up north a number of those surf spots require a dinghy, and all those spots up north give reliable surf for only about half the year.
From Cape Naturaliste to Exmouth there are probably only 6 HIGH quality breaks that are moderately accessible by normal car.
Its a wave-desert in WA.
edit: and most of the waves are left handers. just give me a fun right hander that breaks longer than 40 metres for fks sake.

OHV500's picture
OHV500's picture
OHV500 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 11:11am

I'm not sure that we need one in Vic. - heaps of waves - but gee I'd love to have a crack :))

slumduck's picture
slumduck's picture
slumduck commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 11:29am

Well I grew up surfing the far Sth coast ( Walpole to Hopetoun ).
After 45 yrs and surfing many countries I repeat, we are truly blessed with a plethora of different types of waves. Local knowledge is the key.
If you're on an unfamiliar coast then perseverance and a humble approach will always work imho.
Runningaround in the flash 4x4 between crowded hot spots will only get contempt from the locals and rack up endless mile, slow down, look around every corner , observe conditions and you'll score.
I'm stuck in the Perth for a while but trips up and down the coast always provide an empty line-up somewhere.
Wave park. Na Artificial reef systems, yeah

ngs

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 11:45am

right, so you have do lots of driving, and you cant sneak a surf before work, or after work. Its at least a day trip, and $$$ fuel.

We arent blessed. we have to work hard for it.

quokka's picture
quokka's picture
quokka commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 1:26pm

Agree living in Perth we certainly aren't blessed. There are waves within an hrs drive but as you say Noel, you've got to spend time and money getting to them. If you are lucky enough to live in a wave rich zone well done, for the rest I can't wait to see some sort of system that improves sand banks...reliably.

reddgg's picture
reddgg's picture
reddgg commented Saturday, 11 Nov 2017 at 3:03am

perspective is key here gents

against other city metropolitan surf zones we arent doing too badly!

the beaches and reefs have their moments in winter and a summer arvo wind wave is better than what some folk call surf in the northern hemi. we surf in 3mm of rubber max, reasonably consistent exc summer, with pristine water quality and sure the banks dont line up all the time but they dont in hossegor either. they line up for 60 minutes before the tide ends your session

and you can defo get out for that session before work, its just a matter of adjusting ones expectations. plus as youve already said, you have the weekend/sick day surf trips a short drive away. be thankful for what we have, i think if every Perth surfer did that, it would be a much happier place to surf... lofty expectations = frustration = aggression = :(

but maybe we do need a wave pool so the cranky, territorial types can duke it out in the pool! o'doyle i mean locals rule

quokka's picture
quokka's picture
quokka commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 12:20pm

Nice save, had posters remorse did you "so you cranky, territorial types can duke it out in the pool! ". I thought you'd had a crack and then re-read the email I received to be sure that you had originally had a crack. For the record, no I'm not one of those, I very rarely get abusive in the lineup unless the person really deserved it and am far from a cranky local, having surfed the same beaches for 30+ years, which would give me good reason to be both! Localism licks balls and aggro, greedy dickheads in the lineup do too.
My experiences of aggro on Perth beaches has come from, yes frustration, but this is due to overcrowding and lack of quality, not over-expectations, I just want something that has a shoulder and doesn't have 50 people on it, not too much to ask is it. I could almost guarantee that the aggro would be diminished greatly if there were multiple peaks, instead of one, maybe two at a push (and that's at the height of quality during winter).
If you seriously think that Perth has good or even OK waves then I believe you need to get out of the city more. You really need to travel 90 mins plus before you are even in the vicinity of a half decent, uncrowded wave. Yes we have waves (if you can call them that) but they are not good and need to improve a lot before they get me excited again. I'm happy for you that you can be satisfied with the quality we get.
Read the post about the Scarborough Artificial reef and you'll get the gist of where I'm coming from.

reddgg's picture
reddgg's picture
reddgg commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 9:23pm

posters remorse/self censorship... fair bump play on?

defo do get out of the city as much as possible and understand there are much better, less crowded waves but also appreciate that its a capital city, metropolitan area and when comparing like for like we are going ok! there are not many places on earth you can get an early session in before you jump in a suit and head to the CBD for work. only capital with better waves in Oz is Sydney (by a significant way albeit). you pull your lens back again and you realise we are doing pretty well in a global comparison too

sure, Id prefer to live in Margaret River or the Surf Coast or SW France but unfortunately I wont get to work on time after the early there. all im saying is you need to compare like for like. and I am happy that you're happy that Im satisfied :)

Im assuming you're an advocate for the Scarbs reef? im not convinced that it would improve my own Perth surfing experience. my take out is: best case - increased concentration of mouth breathers on this stretch of beach. this time people will be coming from all parts of the city to surf it which means my early will go from a maybe fun sesh depending on the banks and conditions to a guaranteed shit fight. worse case - the predicted salient affects the surrounding banks and beaches to such an extent that we actually reduce the amount of surfable waves on that stretch (anyone got a link for an artificial reef that has been successful?)

... for me, money better spent on the wave pool and leave the trigg scarbs stretch as it is. sometimes fun, sometimes backwashy and closed out, sometimes flat, never all time. wave pool is guaranteed, has a return on investment and seems like there would be more order for those that way inclined versus unleashing all of perth on one singular artifical reef

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 9:47pm

I cant help but think about where the majority of Australia's most successful professional surfers come from.
Perth is way down the list.

That fact speaks volumes I reckon.

quokka's picture
quokka's picture
quokka commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 12:33pm

Haha good work. Yep I hear what you are saying, we do live in one of the more surfable cities in Oz but where I'm coming from is it used to be much more surfable and I think it could be again with the assistance of AR's. On first read I thought the proposal for an AR at Scabs was a good idea but on mulling it over I believe there are better locations along that stretch that don't currently produce good waves that would be better suited to testing an AR. The proposed reef seems like a one shot holy grail effort whereas I would like to see a cheaper simpler alternative tested on an much less populated stretch of that coast where decent waves are very rare, i.e. south of Brighton or Contacio. The prototype can be tested and refined and once working implemented up and down the closeout stretch. I would say mainly backwashy and closing out. You are also right in asking which AR has actually been successful, and further to that I ask, when has man's meddling with nature ever really worked well on the SW WA coast, I point to The Cut, Port Geographe, Rous Head etc etc, all of these structures have affected the coast line and more importantly (to me anyway) surf spots (except Pt Geo) in a negative way IMO.
Imagine surfable waves in summer, now there's a novelty. Anything to spread out the MB's and have the potential to produce rideable waves is a good idea I reckon. Man has stuffed the Perth beaches so man should fix them, either by using AR's or removing the artificial dunes.

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 2:46pm

3mm rubber max? Not in Victoria, need 3/4 totally sealed with booties and a head job. Plenty of waves though and if you know your spots can surf by yourself. Amazing when you think Melbourne has a population of what 4.5mil or more. Yep blessed, if as you say, to think Indo' every time you go for a surf.

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 11:46am

Agree with all opinions above. Wave pools will be a thing/common at some point with private/commercial investment.
Will the other side of the investment coin be govt money? Investing in multi use artificial reefs (surf, snorkeling, diving, fishing)
Following the GW wave pool thread I get the impression his next inspiration is artificial reefs with low environmental impact. E.g. floating structures.
Maybe the wave pool companies are chasing commercial $ and on the flip side reefs in the ocean are going to be backed by government $.
I think either way the future for my kids and their kids in surfing is amazing.

Nick Bone's picture
Nick Bone's picture
Nick Bone commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 12:15pm

It didnt give away too much and this would of been commissioned with ol' baldys say so, so is it more a less a form of marketing/advertising?

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 1:03pm

Nick, certainly a big marketing component.
But is this the birth place of inspiration for the next generation of engineers and free thinking inventors to transfer the data and understanding of this project to the coastlines of the world?
Scientific understanding of what makes Kelly's wave work could soon result in the next Aussie Pipe at Manly or 35 a-frame peaks along Perth beaches. Who knows?
Interesting times when research and perhaps both commercial and govt $ are invested in this area.

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 2:51pm

thats the interesting bit I reckon, wave creation out of wasted swell or unused land is officially at 'Beta Version' stage.
Interesting times for sure.

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 2:59pm

Well said! Love the "beta version" analogy. Bring on VHS.

quokka's picture
quokka's picture
quokka commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 1:27pm

Bring that on, 35 a-frames on our beaches...I would have died and gone to heaven.

troppo dichotomy's picture
troppo dichotomy's picture
troppo dichotomy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 2:14pm

How much is the wave pool gonna cost the customer to use?whats a wave worth??

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 2:30pm

Supposedly to make 1 wave is $12 US in power
So unless Technology can get wave making cost down to around $2 a wave and wave count per hour up [ Kellys is 14 per hour ] they are never going to be viable

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 4:21pm

any guesses on how many kW are needed to drive that monster through the water?

I'm guessing at least a 500 kW drive is needed, and how many seconds to go 700 metres? We could reverse engineer the electricity cost, roughly.
edit: 50 seconds, up to 600 metres.

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 4:22pm

Randy Rarick has already done it, as per Udo's comments above, and he calculatd the $12 after speaking to the engineers at the park (he was there for Slater's contest).

Don't think we'll get more accurate or informed than that.

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 4:36pm

thanks. just crunching some numbers.

tomdo's picture
tomdo's picture
tomdo commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:07pm

A developer I know recently spoke to a wave pool company thinking he might attach one to a 300 home housing development with its own on-site energy generation. He did the sums and told me that the pool would use more electricity than the 300 homes would. Funnily enough the idea died instantly.

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 2:39pm

Troppo, I don't reckon any wave pool will be a stand alone thing.
They will be part of a multi use development. A branded high end high rise hotel, poolside restaurants, gym and kale smoothie outlet etc etc.
Opens up a heap of marketing and pricing options to access waves in the pool.
Stay 7 nights in hotel get 3 hours free in the wave pool. Spend $100 on dinner at the restaurant and get 1/2 hour in pool or 3 waves. Monthly membership for locals. High performance hour 3-4pm costs more than learners hour between 10 and 11am?
So many options that cost per wave will be irrelevant or more likely hidden in a package. Think mobile phones, no longer pay for each call or call duration.

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 2:54pm

Agree totally. I went to check out a hotel called Jackalope on the weekend. $600 a night. A place like that could probably handle one as there were a lot of the Ferrari, Benz, Bentley, etc. set who tried to look like surfers but just looked like rich ponces. They would have the cash I would try to crash it by doing the sprint when no one was looking.

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 3:13pm

A secondary foil behind the main one would be interesting, less water more hollow, not that much more power required, double the wave count.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 5:43pm

Got to agree big time with govt investment in artificial surf reefs to increase the amount of surfable waves.

I don't think wavepools work as subjects for private/public partnership because of the very high capital and running costs. They use alot of the most expensive and rare things in the australian economy: water and electricity.
Seems from Kelly's plan the target is at high end wealthy consumers and glitzy golf-style resorts.
in my humble opinion: fuck that noise.
But if it floats your boat knock yourself out.

Maybe other wavepools will be pitched more at casual surfing...actual surfing not something done between shopping

Artificial surfing reefs seem to make way more sense as subjects of govt investment. And in fact there is a very good analogue happening right now with artificial fishing reefs being placed everywhere with spectacular success. It increases the amount of habitat and fish life and engenders economic growth in the places they are placed.

I hope they concentrate not on making world class or even "great" waves but just good fun surf ......and low cost and heaps of them.
That could and would have a major impact on reducing crowding and making surfing better for average working recreational surfers.

nogo's picture
nogo's picture
nogo commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 6:05pm

It seems that you put a lot of thought into a product that you won't use. Thats interesting in itself. So if you are not going to try one out why beat your chest so hard? Are you really that against it? People will pay to surf these places, just the same as a boat trip in Indo or even spend the money on a road trip. At the end of the day it costs us money and resources no matter how you do it....

simba's picture
simba's picture
simba commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 6:17pm

Also how many 'almost good spots' are there ,bit of concrete {or whatever} here and there and a lot of almost points and reefs would probably light up.......

simba

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 6:23pm

It's not really that interesting....there's no deep insight. I surf, my family surfs. Wavepools have the potential to change surfing massively.
So I give it some thought. And base my opinions on the facts as they are revealed.

So far we know Slaters pool will be aimed at wealthy consumers as part of golf style resorts.
That might float your boat, good luck to you.
That's everything I am trying to escape when I go surfing.

And if taxpayers money is going to be spent on surfing I'd like to see it go on things people can use without paying big bucks for, like skateparks. Like artificial reefs.
I also think they would be heaps better for progressing surfing, if you want to make that argument....because kids won't have to get the parents to take out a second mortgage if they love surfing and want to do it all the time.

If they have access to an artificial reef then they can access it anytime for free....and that makes way more sense to me than pumping taxpayers money into wavepools.

And that is on the agenda....I spoke yesterday to one of the CEO's of the peak surfing governing bodies. With surfing in the Olympics there will be more Govt money flowing into it and some of that money could potentially be tapped for either wavepools or ASR's although that is not directly on the radar at the moment.

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 6:45pm

Not sure about the claim Kelly's wave pool will be for wealthy consumers , as by putting the first Pool in Palm beach Florida , there seems to be an angle of making a Surf Ranch Theme Park , where you go for a week , stay/eat/drink/party/yoga/wellness centre , in the facilities provided , as other average American families do when they go to Disneyland!
A good thing with the pools will be honing a competitor skills , and also fine tuning board designs , which might mean more waves for us !
When you look at rising sea levels , a lot of our breaks will degenerate over the next couple of decades , so the future for surfing could be just pools as there will be no more beaches!

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 2:58pm

Nah, with luck Black Rock will be goin orff.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 6:59pm

That vid makes you realise how cool it really is, that the worlds best surfer ever actually put his money where his mouth is and against all obstacles created the worlds first real artificial wave.

It's really quite an achievement.

Ada gula, ada semut!

freerider.'s picture
freerider.'s picture
freerider. commented Sunday, 12 Nov 2017 at 3:18am

Dude, get a grip, Dirk Ziff owns the rights to Slater's wave and it is Dirk Ziff who will be spilling out his millions to get it built.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:01pm

From the above article:

"And the future?

Slater envisions that wealthy surfers might want to buy into luxury, private resorts built around a wave, similar to the Discovery Land Company’s high-end golf communities around the world."

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:07pm

btw, I don't think the analogy between a mobile phone call and a wavepool wave is a good one.

The actual cost of a mobile phone call is fukall, most of what we paid is profit to telcos, whereas the actual cost of generating a wave in a wavepool is high so that cost will need to be accounted for, either paid upfront or underwritten by profit from other profit generating activities.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:13pm

With $US12 energy cost per wave plus overheads this is never going to be within the budget of 99% of surfers. Final price? More like $US50. Now this can be packaged in various ways with accommodation, but the end result is the same, forget it. Spend your money on a boat trip, the average cost per wave will be much lower. Funny how the story is always the same. Ordinary people discover something good, the rich come along and buy it for their children!

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:31pm

Average cost per kWh in California is about 12 cents. Average cost here in WA is 24 cents. Ignoring the difference between $US & $AUS, we are still looking at $24 electricity per wave in Australia.
Hmmmm......

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:41pm

that sounds staggeringly high.......maybe we could power up wavepools by somehow capturing wave energy?

Salmondog's picture
Salmondog's picture
Salmondog commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 7:58pm

Agree with simba, fix all the 'almost waves' first. Much cheaper and spread the crowds! Bit of dynamite, bit of conc here and there, too easy.

Roker's picture
Roker's picture
Roker commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 8:03pm

I think surfing in wave pools will quickly develop into its own discipline and little resemble surfing in the ocean. Boards and fins will be radically different due to the predictability and lack of need for volume for paddling. Barrel riding will be gratuitous; sliding, spinning and aerial gymnastics will be the standard. Perhaps Kelly’s gathering of the tribe will seem a mite ridiculous as it veers off in its own direction.

As a spectator sport, Joe Average will look at it similarly to watching freestyle motocross, bowl skating, bmx, snowboarding (insert your action sport). He’ll appreciate the skill level for five minutes before it becomes repetitive and monotonous. He’ll then go back to watching footy or soccer which are tribal and have clear scoring systems. It’s not gonna be the panacea the WSL may be counting on.

As an activity, sure, I reckon there’ll be some cashed up old bastards ready to pay silly money to have a play. For a while at least. It’ll get old pretty quickly.

Me, not interested. Being in the elements, paddling, keeping fit, getting bashed around, scoring unexpected uncrowded gold, fluking that one good wave that makes a session - that’ll do me.

I dunno, something seems a bit ‘off’ about this to me. Like surfing’s been reduced to 140 characters?

memlasurf's picture
memlasurf's picture
memlasurf commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 3:05pm

Yep I have said this before, just like the split in skateboarding - parks vs long boards or snow boarding half pipe vs carving virgin snow in the alps. The former is all gymnastics, the latter is a greater challenge all round.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 8:06pm

If we want artificial reefs we need a strong recreational surfers association to lobby and raise the funds.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 8:35pm

Agreed BB.

For anyone serious about wavepools ...Kelly's is probably not going to happen in the near term.
Surflakes, the one Occy and Barton are involved with are looking for investment.
If you want to ride one, you're probably best off putting your money where your mouth is.
Here's the link:http://www.surf-lakes.com.au/invest/

No, I don't have any financial interest in the company.

Fleazool's picture
Fleazool's picture
Fleazool commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 9:00pm

What if maybe they didn't build a wave pool in every city/region in the world over the next generation, all consuming 12 bucks of juice a ride? Spent the money on reefs or whatever. One off long term projects, free for all to use. Have to be better for everyone.
If they do though, isn't this the sort of consuming of resources that's adding to the rise in sea levels?

Bsm17's picture
Bsm17's picture
Bsm17 commented Friday, 10 Nov 2017 at 10:48pm

I think it funny people generally think they will be able to head to a wave pool when ever the waves arent good. Im sure theres a good chunk of the population who could afford it but i think more then likely most wont. How many people can afford to go the a theme park or the snow more then a couple of times a year. How many of the people who can afford to regularly surf these waves be good enough to ride them? Anyone who has worked around heavy machinery knows the large costs of running it, costs no doubt passed on.

brownknee's picture
brownknee's picture
brownknee commented Saturday, 11 Nov 2017 at 9:45am

Well i think big business will drive wave pool technology forward,professional surfing scene will be in there like a rat up a drainpipe.if you look at current surfing styles ,the best way to take that forward is produce a wave that is dependable and does not need thinking about and the ariels and blah blah blah .... will go on and on. If you want an olympic sport that thousands pay to watch ,put it in a pool .and ooh did we mention board makers licking their lips..... as for me take me down to the salt,sand,wind and waves

inzider's picture
inzider's picture
inzider commented Saturday, 11 Nov 2017 at 11:54am

The progression of surfing is going to benefit from the perfection factor.
Like dropping into a half-pipe whenever you want and perfecting moves.
Yet the best skaters are the ones that destroy imperfection and not the other way round.

jaunkemps's picture
jaunkemps's picture
jaunkemps commented Saturday, 11 Nov 2017 at 7:46pm

Hmmm interesting read here, mostly the way business works as l see it is, first in develops the idea to the point of commercial viability, sometimes alittle to early to be successful, later another player takes that same idea with a twist commercial success........
I'm quite surprised the a cable pulls the sled, I would have though a hydraulic system would have been a better option, to add why carn't the sled make another wave on the way back to home, drop the run one sled down pull up the run two sled and bob's ya uncle fannies ya aunt ........
"Anyone intersted in a chat about this please drop me a line!"

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 12:55pm

Hydraulics would make your 2 sled option, 1 up 1 down, feasible. Still reckon the turbulence and surface conditions are the reason this hasn't been done yet.
KS and Dirk want vids of clean faces and perfect waves. Wave 2 in your 2 sled scenario would be less than perfect but I imagine a shit ton of fun. But it then adds to the time they need for the pool to settle.
So from a marketing point of view 1 sled, 1 perfect wave makes sense.
Maybe the reality in a commercial wave pool though is that 2 or more sleds would be used to create a "set" of varying quality waves before the delay to let the pool settle. Makes sense.

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 1:18pm

i just assumed they are already doing it now, ie pulling the sled back the other way to create the (not quite as hollow) Left. Am i missing something?

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 2:12pm

I thought the left was on the other side of sled and associated frame etc.

You could be right but that would mean the bottom bathymetry would be backwards and the left wouldn't work?

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 2:32pm

have another look at the video, theres no water on the other side of the framework.

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 3:48pm

You are probably right. Haven't had a chance to re-watch vids.
So can they reverse or change bottom countours for the left going the other way?

amb's picture
amb's picture
amb commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 4:06pm

No they use the same bottom, check 1:41 of the vid shows the bottom contours. Looks like on the right it gets shallow quite quick, while the opposing left is more gradual and is shallowest at the end of the ride. which is opposite to what you seen in the vid so i must either have this wrong or they are playing funny buggers (ie protecting there IP).

gcuts's picture
gcuts's picture
gcuts commented Monday, 13 Nov 2017 at 12:06pm

And, webbers waves pool?

Hmmm.

Webber surprisingly quiet after the flurry of comments on what would now seem like a puff piece of marketing spin "article" on here a few months ago?

Or, have I missed the update?

Quint's picture
Quint's picture
Quint commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 9:44am

Its over. He and Freeride had a duel to the death on Lennox Point and they both didn't make it.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 11:11am

Nick Carroll was invited to Kellys pool earlier in the month...interesting to read his views on it
will be a few months away due to having to sign a hush hush agreement .

Kooza's picture
Kooza's picture
Kooza commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 12:01pm

Great achievement but I'd personally rather save all year for a week in G-land than travel 200 miles inland to surf in pond.

Cacadajy's picture
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Cacadajy commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 12:38pm

Back to the subject of the article.
The Science. AMC in Tas does great (scale) modelling of waves etc. But KS wavepool and possibly GW's full scale, real world working models give so much data and knowledge about bottom contours etc.

The question is, can scientists and innovators get around the IP and patents and use the data and info to create artificial reefs in the open ocean.

The fact that Govt. agencies are studying and monitoring sand flows along the coastline around Sydney to understand and possibly prevent coastal erosion in large swells and in general is a positive.

When these two area's of study and data collection (bottom contours in a pool that make the perfect wave and a full understanding of coastal sand movement) come together will be an exciting time.

Long straight sections of coast that generally always suffer from a lack of good banks, could possibly be turned into a series of a-frame banks. The push to install these artificial reefs could be 2 fold, for recreational benefit (surfing, fishing, diving) along with an environmental benefit in reducing/controlling coastal erosion

But that then opens up the debate of pay to play. Rec fishing license schemes have worked to some degree in many states. Would you pay a $50 yearly fee for a license to surf artificial reef banks?

I am looking at you Sunshine Coast, Gold Coast and a heap of stretches along NSW coast.

I really have no idea but all of this progression has to be a benefit somewhere doesn't it?

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 2:06pm

In WA at least there is a reluctance for the traditional coastal engineering consultants to get behind dual purpose reefs. So until someone else forges ahead and gets clearly successful results they will just stick with what they know. Understandable.

Having said that, I was involved in processes to try and get an ASR progressed locally but came to the conclusion that best approach was to build several small scale and near-shore trial reefs in a beach zone that was of little recreational value and which would protect itself due to natural geology. That approach would trial multiple concepts and good empirical data could be captured. Anyway, watch this space.

As for who pays to use it ?, Well we all pay for everything and using most of it for free. Just like all recreation facilities an ASR would be built with multiple grants and then the local government ends up inheriting the project and absorbing it into the maintenance budget.
So from my experience the local govt is the biggest threat to an ASR projects. By overt or covert means they can kill it dead at any stage of the game and everyone will be scratching their heads and wondering wtf just happened?

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 3:47pm

Yep it takes a lot of hands with cash in them to make a reef possible.

But the motivation of say the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast Councils and metro coastal Perth coulcils is very diffdifferent.

Qld councils seem, from the outside, to understand surf tourism and that local surf breaks provide value and amenity to tourists and locals so are more willing to invest in this area.

I may be wrong though.

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Tuesday, 14 Nov 2017 at 6:19pm

A licence is interesting.

At first I screamed bloody blue murder at having to pay a rec fishing licence.
But at $85 for 3 years...I quickly realised I got my money's worth of fish in a red hot week.
And with net buy-outs and estuaries being turned into rec fishing havens (more on the south coast than where I live), as well as fish stocking, and rec fishing reefs being installed...it seemed like a reasonable investment.

Far as surfing goes...I'd need to see some pretty strong evidence that a fee would benefit rec surfers, not pros or "organised" surfing before I felt OK about paying anything.

This place isn't short on surf spots but if they were going to put reefs in like roundabouts on the Goldy it's be fun when up there to hit one up.

Clive Rodell's picture
Clive Rodell's picture
Clive Rodell commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 5:45am

I'd love the chance to surf one. Not sure what all the fuss is about, people having snipes at each other?
Don't want to surf one... don't and vice versa. After hearing stories first hand from some who have ridden it, sounds challenging and fun!

Gary G's picture
Gary G's picture
Gary G commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 4:04pm

Gary is a little confused.

Also, Gary is a little confused by this discussion (and other wave pool threads).

Gary, as someone who is constantly watching, believes that many of the negative arguments about wave pools (not necessarily made by those active on this thread, but certainly in discussions involving those in this thread) purport that wave pools are a blight on surfing as they will generate an armada of new facey riders in places such as the gold coast, and those surfers will add to further overpopulation at the major breaks.

Now, Gary can understand the unwillingness for public fund to be diverted to support private interests for the Elite (although, how elite can these elite be? How many raw eggs can they eat while doing one legged sit-ups? but Gary digresses).

However, Gary is little confused about the broad support for artificial reefs/beach breaks that would surely act as training grounds, better suited for open ocean prep than wave pools, for an armada of new facey riders in places such as the gold coast, and those surfers will add to further overpopulation at the major breaks.

For what it's worth - Gary is supportive of any initiative that allows people to swing whichever way they want; wave pools, reefs, whatever .

Gary just finds some of the logic a little jarring but would be happy for someone to explain it to him.

I'm high on the hill, looking over the bridge,
To the Gary-G.
And way up on high, the wave I can see,
is a sweet facey

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 5:27pm

it's pretty easy G.

Wavepools are being designed and built with the express purpose of massively increasing the surfing population. That is the whole point of the business model.

Artificial reefs are being designed with the express purpose of creating more surfable spots to spread the crowd that already exists.

You see the diff?

OHV500's picture
OHV500's picture
OHV500 commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 7:49pm

I totally agree with 'G' - whatever floats your boat - who are we to say No ?

Gary G's picture
Gary G's picture
Gary G commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 8:14pm

Cheers Freeride, Gary hears ya.

Gary is a little skeptical that wavepools will in practice generate significantly more additional surfers: whether the business mode aims to or not.

Gary could however see wavepools upskilling existing surfers, in the same way that man-made breaks could: with both having the consequence unintended or not of firing more, better skilled surfers at the marquee breaks.

Gary isn't particularly concerned about either but feels artificial reefs present more of a 'be careful what you wish for' argument than has been present in these pages.

It's typically sound advice unless of course, you wish for Gary, in which case you are welcome to wish away.

I'm high on the hill, looking over the bridge,
To the Gary-G.
And way up on high, the wave I can see,
is a sweet facey

ishredinmyhead's picture
ishredinmyhead's picture
ishredinmyhead commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 10:27am

Gary G does seem to know his wishes!
I have recently had that wish come true in regards to an artificial (but for now temporary) reef.
It was all good for the first couple of weeks, a hand full of blokes, some tasty meaty slabs. But the word got out and before long it was shit fight central!! it became a compact 'superbank' with a super crowd that reminded me of a pack of seagulls or piranhas.
now i'm wishing they'd all just fuck off!

ps this reef (sand bank) is absolute crap now, so spread the word if you know where i'm talking about.

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 5:19pm

Definitely agree about" be careful what you wish for".
But if the science and engineering gleaned from wave pools significantly improves the design and construction of artificial reefs then maybe we all win.

So maybe be careful where you put them and too many may never be enough.

Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy's picture
Cacadajy commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 8:20pm

Shit, would be fun though to watch all of these new surfers (that some are worried will be invading their local because of the availability of wave pools) have a crack at Kellys wave as their first experience at surfing.

Prob need a shovel to scrape em off the bottom after getting pitched. Dunno how many would be coming back for more?

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Thursday, 16 Nov 2017 at 8:55pm

They'd obv's have to "detune" it......but I've seen some footy of the left looking very soft, so it can be done.
This is WSL honcho Renato Hinckel on the left.....looks like most intermediates could do it....make it a bit softer and beginners could ride it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPmsr-yMwzg

The other ob difference between wavepools and artificial reefs is one will see bulldozers flattening bushland, concrete everywhere and massive energy usage and huge ongoing costs as well as a steep fee to use.

The other builds habitat, has no ongoing energy cost and is free to ride. It's more like building a skatepark.

Rabbits68's picture
Rabbits68's picture
Rabbits68 commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 11:06am

Freeride76 “Wavepools are being designed and built with the express purpose of massively increasing the surfing population. That is the whole point of the business model.”

Can’t the same be said about every other business model related to surfing? For example, surf schools, surf shops, surfboard makers, surf charter boat/companies, surf camps, etc etc etc. Or are these other business models just building the surf population at a manageable rate, these businesses happy to make just a lifestyle income from surfing whilst being concerned about overcrowding ? Yeah right! The current evidence would suggest otherwise.

Crystal Clear

Jelly Flater's picture
Jelly Flater's picture
Jelly Flater commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 12:27pm

Rabbits they are great questions... Crystal clear.Not sure how the free dribble can counter that, but he'll find a way to keep feeding the nonsense self agenda somehow! The analogies are really going places too - freeride states: 'more like building a skatepark' in relation to 'building a habitat'??? Seems to be 'concrete everywhere' in a skatepark;) Not much sense in nonsense! The thread is about the science of Kelly's pool - a simple man made marvel of imitation... That's all really. The science of silly ill informed and self appointed expertise is the only real contribution being offered by freeride... And at least that part is free - coz as a failed wannabe writer it shows nobody gonna pay to read it ;) Keep trying...

nogo's picture
nogo's picture
nogo commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 4:50pm

Go Jelly go, spot on!

OHV500's picture
OHV500's picture
OHV500 commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 6:50pm

:))))) yessiree buckaroo

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 7:00pm

It's like building a skatepark because it is free. A wavepool is not. Easy to understand?

Any hard structure in the surf zone is habitat ....thats basic biology.

But hey, if you want to compare the concrete and environmental destruction of an ASR versus the retail/hotel/wavepool complex and also compare the energy usage knock yourself out Jelly.

But please, spare us the psycho-babble if you do.

spidermonkey's picture
spidermonkey's picture
spidermonkey commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 7:21pm

Freeride Fan Club...nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. No need for Personal attack,Pretty low blow jellyf

freeride76's picture
freeride76's picture
freeride76 commented Friday, 17 Nov 2017 at 8:47pm

it's no drama Spider....just fun and games.

But Rabbits did have some very good points that do deserve serious consideration.

I think Webber has been one of the first to openly say he wants to see massively increased numbers of surfers......in a kind of chicken and egg argument justifying wavepools.....the wavepools breed increased surfer numbers, and more wavepools are built to service the increased numbers.

I doubt whether proponents of artificial reefs could or would use the same arguments. It seems to me it is more about servicing existing surfer numbers and spreading crowds by creating more surf spots. They aren't businesses designed to generate a profit, they don't need growth to justify the investment. Whether that is achievable is another story.

As for other surf related businesses......I really think it depends on the business. I know lots of small scale surfer-shapers who have a small lifestyle business that employs local people and have zero ambition to see massive increases in surfer numbers. They are happy servicing local communities. And that is what they do. I could name heaps off the top of my head.

Obviously other businesses have different ambitions. But the surf industry has pretty much died so wavepools are the next logical step in creating a surf-industrial complex. Except this time they can actually monetize the essence of surfing in a way that has never been done before.
Anyway, these are all known knowns.

It's about how much they will cost to ride and where they pop up now.

udo's picture
udo's picture
udo commented Saturday, 18 Nov 2017 at 8:31am

a walk on water insta
Footage of Nland wave at Austin that now barrells...showing the towed Hull in action

John Eyre's picture
John Eyre's picture
John Eyre commented Saturday, 18 Nov 2017 at 7:03pm

Noel thinks theres no righthanders in Wa .... he must be over 65 years old !

Noel's picture
Noel's picture
Noel commented Saturday, 18 Nov 2017 at 7:24pm

FFS. what has age got to do with it? and I'm 55. Whatever. Has the geology changed recently?

And.... didnt say 'no right handers'.

Been surfing WA for 40 years, mostly down south in the early years. And I was sick of surfing back-hand by my early 20's.

In my opinion, from main break to Gnaraloo it is definitely a bonus if you surf right foot forward.

However, if you are just trolling or want to argue about who's got the biggest balls you can just bash it. Not interested.

eddiewouldgo's picture
eddiewouldgo's picture
eddiewouldgo commented Sunday, 19 Nov 2017 at 12:47am

Plenty good rights in wa