Lack of balance in Australian shark cull tactics
The drum lines are set, protests are under way, and the media arguments and counter arguments have begun.
In December, the Western Australian State Government's new catch-and-kill policy was announced following a cluster of shark attacks. The role of killing the sharks was put to tender but the successful company backed out before the first shark was caught. The reason given, ironically enough, was that they couldn't ensure the safety of their employees amidst the prevailing atmosphere of anger.
Anti-shark cull campaigner Natalie Banks organised a rally at Cottesloe Beach earlier this month. In a recent ABC interview she said it was disappointing the rally did not change the government's mind. "A lot of the community have spoken out in anger and disgust about what has happened, it's a sad day for a lot of people who have spoken out and just did not want this to occur," Banks said. "We're very disappointed that the WA Government isn't listening to the voices of the thousands of people who are not just attending our protests, but speaking out worldwide." Banks cited Ricky Gervais and Sir Richard Branson as people who'd spoken out against the cull.
WA Premier Colin Barnett has defended the new catch-and-kill policy, arguing public safety is at risk. "When you have sharks that are three, four, five metres long of known aggressive varieties, swimming in the water very close to beachgoers, that is an imminent danger," Barnett said. "I get no pleasure out of seeing sharks killed but I have an overriding responsibility to protect the people of Western Australia."
Although the first contractor stood down, a replacement contractor was found and they've been laying drum lines in targeted areas. On Saturday they found and killed the first shark under the policy. The shark was caught on baited drum lines off Meelup Beach near Dunsborough on Saturday.
Also on Saturday, the Global Shark Attack File (GSAF) for 2013 was released. The GSAF provides authenticated shark attack data for each year, listing all possible information and categorising the attack. The GSAF reported 68 unprovoked shark attacks for 2013, which includes 13 fatalities. Of the 68 attacks, 13 were in Australia with 2 fatal.
It may emphasise the rarity of shark/human interactions, but the GSAF does little to kerb the fear. The WA government's catch-and-kill policy is testament to that.
And if you think that fear of sharks makes us act irrationally then consider this: despite all the protests about the WA cull, sharks have been killed in nets and drum lines on the East Coast for decades with nary a word said in protest. An op ed piece in today's Australian summed up the lopsided situation as such: "Either the protesters value the lives of West Australian sharks more highly than eastern states sharks, or they value the lives of West Australian beachgoers less than swimmers on the east coast."
Comments
It doesn't seem like the lack of balance is in the culling tactics, more so the media's presentation. Plenty of people & protest groups are against the shark nets & drumlines that already exist on the East Coast. It's somewhat naive to state that "nary a word" is said against these measures elsewhere. The only reason there has been such a reaction towards what is happening in WA is that it is in the forefront of Australian and worldwide media. Which is not an unusual phenomenon by any means. Besides which, why do these articles have to be controversial opinionated pieces. Surely an organisation like Swellnet can do alot in raising awareness of the use of nets and drumlines elsewhere. And why don't you run an online australian surfer poll to see what we truly believe in? It would give a truly large cross section of Australian ocean users the opportunity to say how they feel about these actions, in any state. Include details for where you live & how you use the ocean, and it will indicate how the WA community feels compared to the rest to other States!
Yeah, to be honest I'm questioning the media line in this, and those who adhere to it. It smacks of hypocrisy and all seems like so much ballyhoo. It's very easy to cast judgement on what's happening on the other side of the country or the other side of the world without considering what's happening in your own backyard.
You may say that plenty of people and protest groups are against the shark nets and drumlines on the East Coast - I think I am too - but I'm not hearing anything from them. Nothing. And I'm online in the media every single day. I've written numerous stories about shark preservation, collaborated with Whitetag and CSIRO, and not one protest group has ever contacted Swellnet.
The WA protestors have every right to wave the placades and protect their corner of the Earth. They've got the 'thinking global, acting local' part down pat. The argument gets a lot hazier when people from outside WA, in particular folk from NSW and Queensland, join the protest.
Do we want all the nets and drum lines removed from East Coast beaches?
I agree that it is hypocritical. It's sad really, with some luck & help from saavy people such as yourself the spotlight may shift Australia-wide.
I am from Victoria. I surf & I dive regularly. I don't support drumlines or shark nets anywhere.
My reasons are varied, but ultimately for me this is just a knee jerk political reaction to what is a complex issue. Not to be disrespectful at all towards victims, but there just aren't that many shark attacks. I'm much more likely to die driving down the beach or from drowning then I am from a shark attack!
The argument of 'public safety' to entire state is weak. We know so little about many of the Shark species & how these measure affect them, & Drumlines in particular are indiscriminate killers. The idea that they will only kill sharks they catch that are over 3m in length is rather absurd, given that any shark caught on a line could easily die before it is hauled in. The other thing is it's not the sharks fault, it's their environment. We have a lot of catching up to do when it comes to respecting marine life. blah blah blah I could go on all day sorry.
i'm really over these green wankers, they seem to protest anything. I'm not one for killing sharks and i am 100% against shark fining. But jeez so many people have been taken in WA some of these whites have to be taken out.
VICLongboard, these "green wankers" actually have a brain in their head and probably understand that killing sharks will not reduce the number of shark attacks. They are also probably intelligent enough to realise that killing apex predators is devastating for the marine ecosystem. Just a quick look on google scholar can illustrate this in peer reviewed scientific journals...these are evidence based facts - not the opinion of old Bob who's been fishing in WA half his life and reckons he sees more sharks these days but hasn't stopped to think about the fact that he's retired now and gets out on the water twice as much. It's stupid statements like "my old man reckons he sees more sharks these days" that get people thinking there are more sharks when once again there are not. There are less sharks- fact. There are more people in the water - fact. More people in water = more interaction with people and sharks = more attacks. Anyone with half a brain in their head could figure this out, but just in case you don't (as it seems many people who want sharks killed don't) we also have scientists who collect lots of data and spend hours collaborating it into reports. They then make conclusions based on this data. Thats how science works, it's LOGICAL and FACTUAL. If anyone is afraid of being attacked I strongly urge them to stay out of the water and keep the breaks clear of wimps so that I can go out and have an awesome surf without witless idiots getting in my way and babbling about "how many more sharks there are these days." It is very easy to have an opinion based on no evidence whatsoever and I respect yours, but before you post your opinion on a public forum I strongly urge you to seek the facts rather than listen to idiots around you. You might find you actually learned something rather than heard something. It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth a remove all doubt.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../j.1461-0248.2010.../full
http://icesjms.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/3/476.short
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/293/5530/629.short
I think it would surprise a lot of people if they did a surfers poll on shark culling, especially WA surfers.
The Media attention has been very one sided, it was the WA surfing community and WA surf life saving that was calling for the cull in the first place. The President of Margaret River board riders club said him and his members support the cull. That discussion has been well and truly drowned out though.
My problem with the debate is that the anti-cull machine is mainly being driven by people in WA that simply don't use the water, or folk from other states (don't get me started on the hyprocrisy in Qld/NSW). I understand that is a massive generalisation, but from what I'm seeing of the people who oppose it, they aren't the people who are exposed to the risks, and the people who ARE exposed to the risks are being very quiet.
I grew up surfing the east coast. When someone was taken by a shark the attitude was "poor guy, freak accident, very unlucky" etc. It wasn't a regular occurrence so the mood of the surfing community was one of a freak accident in the community. When I moved to WA my attitude was the same, before the string of shark attacks. What people don't hear about is the huge number of shark sightings. Through that period of the shark deaths, there were shark sightings down South West WA every other day. The mood of the community wasn't of it is a freak accident, it was "who is going to be next?". The people I was speaking to were expecting more attacks based on the number of shark sightings. People were worried with the number of sightings and were calling for something to be done.
In my opinion, if you aren't exposed to the risks and/or you don't understand the situation on the west coast (which is very different to the east coast), than you should keep your opinion to yourselves. Let WA govern itself in this situation, if you live on the east coast and hate shark culling, worry about your own backyard. And lets put these protests in WA into perspective, they got 6000 people at the rally. 6000 people showed up at the main beach in Perth city on Saturday, in the middle of summer. That is a TINY turn out considering probably 75% of people there had no idea it was happening.
I am really intrigued by your comments.
Margaret River Boardriders have made a very clear media statement (available on their Facebook group) that they are not on either side of the debate. The president has asked that all members do not represent the club with their opinion (pro or anti cull).
The majority of members of organising group #NoWAsharkcull are ocean users of some kind ocean swimmers, surfers, divers, fisherman………so I am unsure where you are getting your facts in relation to some of the claims you are making that the argument has been hijacked by a fringe element.
6000 protestors? at one protest and numerous attending other rallies across Australia. And this is not a good turn out? This is huge attendance for a single issue, many well educated, well spoken individuals who understand both sides of the argument attended, many well educated individuals spoke that culling is not the answer…where you at these protests? This is a knee jerk reaction by a hysterical government pandering for votes. The anti cull argument agrees that something needs to be done but that culling (? or whatever you call it) is not the answer.
Margaret River Board Riders made a very clear media statement that they do support the shark cull. The president made that statement. So did Yallingup, and Surf Life Saving WA. Just google it. If they have since changed their tune it's probabaly because they couldn't be bothered to deal with the anti-cull hysteria.
I'm sure some of the members of that group are ocean users. I'm just seeing a hell of a lot of people who are not. People who use the beach everynow and than and just swim in the flags, people from other states, people from other countires. Now they are all allowed to have their opinions, but so do the WA board riders clubs and surf life saving clubs.
Now my main point is that 6000 people would have turned up at Cott on that day regardless. As for the other parts of Australia, who cares? They had a rally against the shark cull at Burleigh for gods sake..... You can see the red bouys in the ocean behind them!
Just like everyone else, I'm starting to get bored with the discussion now, Ukraine and the death of the assylum seeker will take the focus and this can just die and be forgotten about. The shark population off WA will remain healthy and largely unaffected and the world will keep spinning. Any 'expert' that tries to tell you otherwise is telling you porkies.
Edit: Just thought I'd check it out to see if people had started changing their tune, and it appears they haven't. Looks like Taj is in the mix now as well, but I guess he wouldn't know as much as Ricky Gervias or Richard Branson?
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/20691826/shark-fears-spook-surf-ace/
"It's fair enough protesters want to protect the environment but barely any of them are from the region. They don't spend time in the water and a lot of them have no idea what's going on."
Maybe with the tens of millions of dollars they spend killing sharks they could build a big wave pool and you pussies that are scared of sharks can go surf in that- and us real Australians will go swim in the big bad ocean you're so afraid of. I'm ok with less crowds on the breaks anyway. So funny seeing all these big tough country blokes whine about sharks like little boys. Harden up. I surf in SA also lots of sharks, seen a 5m pointer 30m away while surfing last October - scared the shit out of me yes. Do i want to kill it? No. Saw a snake in the bush last year also, a very venomous brown snake that could kill me. Do I want to kill it? No. I'm not a dumbass little pussy like the people that want to kill sharks. Scared of being attacked? Simple. STAY OUT OF THE WATER, YOU KNOW THE RISKS.
Do you have scientific evidence that the sightings weren't just from more people actually looking out for sharks because of the attacks? No. You don't. You are saying everything based on what "he said", and what "old mate" said and blah blah. Whats messed up is the government is basing their actions on the same non-factual BS like you are, and the marine ecosystem is suffering because of it!
"In your opinion" Guess what mate, you're opinion stinks. Sharks travel from South Africa to Perth and as far up as QLD so it affects everyone whether you like it or not. If you kill them in Perth, we'll get less in other parts of Australia - and not every state in Australia kills sharks cos they aren't dumbasses.
Why is this world full of so many IDIOTS? I really thought Australians were down to earth and less stupid than this when it came to our environment but we are not. There are smart people that have been employed by the government to resolve these issues and they are being ignored, and ignorant people like yourself and others on these forums are being listened to. It doesn't make any sense at all.
No doubt the footage of a guy pointing a shotgun at the water (presumably after 'going to get a bigger boat') will do nothing to quell the public's disquiet.
Something darkly humorous about that footage - shows just how futile single actions like this are...
I think it's a case of out of mind out of sight on the east coast.
Followed this a bit as I am a commercial fisherman, agree with the quiet on the Eastern front mentality from Queensland is a bit of a double standard but what I have found disturbing is, and this is only eastern state coverage that I have seen is that the scientific community has been very quiet on this !! Or have they been more vocal in WA?
The only ones being vocal in WA are the hipsters with shit beards, students of the Arts and the naturopathy/music students who found a marine degree in the bottom of a ceral packet and feel the need to voice their scientific facts (opinion) because its cool to do so and they get likes on facebook or Twitter.
All of which are unemployed and who would develop asthma sysmptoms at the smell of saltwater, let along the 3rd degree burns if they were to attempt going for their yearly swim.....
It is just bullsh*t that this is being controlled by the media corporations, being fuelled by social media idiots that don't spend any time in the ocean.
Just like to add that I'm all for research to find out ACTUAL numbers of GWS hanging off our coastline and satellite tag the backside out of them so we have more of an understanding of their movements.
But at the end of the day it is double standards to have the drum lines in NSW and Qld not even raise an eyelid, yet put 8 hooks in the water off WA and the whole world is going to end!
Hey uncle_leroy are you an idiot or do you just refuse to accept that scientists are smart people that know more than you about the ocean? Half of my mates are marine scientists and they'd kick the bloody pants off you no doubt in probably any form of physical exercise, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about because you have clearly never been to a university, clearly because you are too dumb. I'm sorry if your offended but it's simply too hard not to come to any other conclusion about your intelligence level after reading your statement above.
Here's some articles you might find interesting...if you can read.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../j.1461-0248.2010.../full
http://icesjms.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/3/476.short
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/293/5530/629.short
Hi MitchJS,
Mate, if I was to call you that, thanks in advance for the personal attack. They always feel soo much better when they come from behind a keyboard. I must have got you with the comment about the beards or was it the cereal packet......
I'm glad that you have cleared up this fact as I was a bit confused. Maybe I just don't understand anything with my science degree, 12 years of continuos employment within the environmental sector both government and private, years of commercial wet lining prior to uni, surfing, fishing and spearfishing when ever I get the chance.
As for physical exercise, usually run 10km every 2nd day or a bike ride if no sport available (surf, spear or fish). I've done the rotto swim the past 5 years, last 2 as a solo swimmer and full length of the bibbulmun track summer just gone. But I still don't know how my physical ability has anything to do with with this.
You might have to ask a mate to do so because they are marine scientists, but can you please provide a link from the WA fisheries with realtime movements of all the GWS's that have been tagged?
How many they have tagged in the last 2 months?
How many have been killed through commercial fishing in the past 2 months?
How many tagged sharks are still transmitting signals?
What's that...............silence.....
Sweet fark all information is being made public and all ocean users deserve to see this information to make up their own minds if they want to go for a surf in november off the back of Gracetown.
The NSW marine parks introduced by the Greens and Labor went through the courts and was deemed to be vote winning political bullshit, not based on science at all and ruined a lot of livelihoods. If only they would do the same thing for the grey nurse areas. Anyone with half a brain would realise there are more than a few hundred left, bloody hell I could show you 50-60 in half a day along a 20km stretch of coastline. All locked up for the dive boats and their yuppy clientele.
And just for the record, I quite often don't wear any pants at all but hey, you can do that when you live in your own house. Might be a bit hard for you living with your parents still.
Chin up mate, see you out at snapper, d'bah, trig, scarbs, middleton, parsons, pass, lennox, jakes, dunes, or thirteenth and we can drop in on each other. It will be so cool with our beards, chai tea and twitter updates.
No worries mr leroy but you'll see my personal attack was only in response of your very own personal attack above, lets see what did you say? "hipsters with shit beards, students of the Arts and the naturopathy/music students who found a marine degree in the bottom of a ceral packet and feel the need to voice their scientific facts (opinion) because its cool to do so and they get likes on facebook or Twitter."
What IS your degree then? Because I find it very hard to believe that anyone with a marine science degree would take your stance. Maybe yours is one of those cereal packet ones. If you have spent 12 years in the environmental sector surely YOU could produce some information and make it public and prove to us that shark culling works. So where's YOUR proof? Have you got documented evidence of your shark sightings and their nature. Are your shark sightings of 1 shark 50-60 times? Or actually 50-60 sharks all at different times? And how would you prove this? I'm dying to see your results because seeing as you claim to have a science degree you surely would know how to record and collate data of this manner. 12 years of continuous employment in the environmental sector wow, you must have so much data backing up your argument. Where is it mate?
The funniest thing about you're little dig at twitter and asking me about tagging sharks is that the WA government has combined the two to make information about sharks public, and you don't even know about it.
This from: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/12/31/258670211/more-tha...
"Sharks in Western Australia are now tweeting out where they are — in a way.
Government researchers have tagged 338 sharks with acoustic transmitters that monitor where the animals are. When a tagged shark is about half a mile away from a beach, it triggers a computer alert, which tweets out a message on the Surf Life Saving Western Australia Twitter feed. The tweet notes the shark's size, breed and approximate location."
What were you saying?
"Sweet fark all information is being made public and all ocean users deserve to see this information to make up their own minds if they want to go for a surf in november off the back of Gracetown."
Ah well actually the info is on twitter, couldn't get much more accessible than that. Maybe if you stopped hating on people who use technology like twitter and people that have beards, you would have known this. You would also have had easy access to hundreds of scientific papers on google scholar, government websites and other websites that you could read and educate yourself on this matter so that you can come up with an informed decision.
Here's a webpage explaining what we do in SA to research sharks:
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/174117/shark_ecolog...
Here's a scientific paper written for the WA department of fisheries written by an Associate Prof. from Bond University stating it is not recommended to introduce a shark culling program:
http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/Documents/occasional_publications/fop108.pdf
A report by the Department of Primary Industries showed that 23 of the 139 (17%) attacks in the state, between 1937 and 2009, occurred at netted beaches. http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/276029/Report-into...
Shark attacks are not increasing, heres proof:
http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/MF10181.htm
Heres a website showing that rips are more dangerous than sharks, among other things:
http://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science/rips-bigger-killer-other-natura...
I'm sure the story of commercial fishing is not a good one, but that is not a reason to kill even more sharks and add to the by catch.
"for the record" I live in Vietnam at the moment, next stop Philippines. I got a science degree too.
The scientific community have been one of the most vocal against the cull. A good proportion of presenters at the protests and the organising groups have been marine scientists and researchers. Hearing their experiences, perceptions and insights has been interesting.
Think they've been sidelined, Sticky. A fellow that I know of, very prominent in the shark field, worked incredibly hard to fulfill his research and media duties the last 12 months. All of it was for nought as the govt. went the other way anyway.
We'll have an article on Swellnet shortly outlining the direction GWS research is taking and some of the breakthroughs achieved.
Make sure you get Barry Bruce involved.
'Cause he's a well regarded fellow in the field of Great White Sharks, or just 'cause he has a you beaut Aussie name?
Both.
Barry, or Bazza he prefers to be known, is involved.
I think the mainstream media is partly responsible in over-exposing the attacks and whipping society up in arms which leads to immediate, poorly rationalised policy. Then you get the conflict. Then you get the news values... Then you get the power. Society just rolls with whatever petition comes up on their feed and maybe has an opinion, based on what they've read.
Or am I wrong - do you think the shark cull policy would be implemented purely on the proximity of these tragic events?
Mainstream media?
You'd have a bit of a blindspot BB if you left Surf Media out of it.
Like any media they'll run the articles that get the big circulation/hits.
Apparently I'm not alone in my eyesight difficulties.
Classic, thats what I thought as well.
when people say its more dangerous on the road ,i think yeah but what if you don't use the road but you go in the ocean everyday ? i don't promote killing sharks but i reckon those protesters should protest about all the fish that are being caught daily . of course humans should try to preserve this planet .
hey mate, if you kill all the sharks what happens to seal numbers? They go up... What do seals eat? hmmm.
I'm from Vic and must admit don't know much at all on the subject, but I thought the nets along the Gold and Sunshine coasts were primarily there to keep the sharks out? I always thought the occasional shark just got accidentally tangled in the nets and died.
Is this not the reason / purpose of the nets?
Why can't WA also establish nets in key hot spots, eg. Cottesloe Beach?
I wouldn't mind knowing the answers to the above from someone in the know. Thanks.
PS. My opinion is the water is the shark's home, we are visitors. You don't kill a lion after jumping into a lion cage at the zoo, do you?
Gavin, QLD has nets and drumlines to manage sharks, NSW just has nets. The nets don't cover whole beaches but rather just selected sections, the rationale (I think) being that it stops territorial sharks from setting up home near swimmers.
The nets also catch lots of other sealife: whales, dolphins, rays and skates, bigger fish, and non-targeted species of sharks. NSW Dept of Primary Industry manage the Shark Meshing Program, and their annual summaries have a lot of info about netting. From the 2012-13 annual report:
"There were 32 interactions with target sharks in the SMP during the 2012-13 season,
comprised of 3 White Sharks, 2 Mako Sharks, 1 Broadnose Sevengill Shark, 2 Tiger Sharks
(both released alive), 1 Bull Shark and 23 other whalers (2 released alive).
There were 72 interactions with non-target sharks comprised of 19 Smooth Hammerhead
Sharks, 1 Scalloped Hammerhead Shark, 9 Greynurse Sharks (3 released alive), 3 Australian
Angelsharks (1 released alive), 3 Port Jackson Sharks (1 released alive), 3 unidentified
Hammerhead Sharks, 29 Southern Eagle Rays (21 released alive) and 5 other rays (2
released alive).
There were 4 interactions with marine mammals and reptiles, comprised of 2 Humpback
Whales (released alive), 1 loggerhead turtle, and 1 unidentified turtle.
Seventeen of those 108 interactions were with threatened species, namely Greynurse, White
and the Scalloped Hammerhead Sharks, the Humpback Whales and the turtles."
The year before there were 158 interactions/entanglements recorded and the year before that 157. Both times roughly two thirds of the animals died in the nets.
Hi Stu,
Thanks for providing this info. Cheers.
Stunet, Good to see someone doing their research - sadly missing in the mainstream media -
apples and oranges argument Gav.
The purpose of the nets and drum lines is to prevent large sharks from establishing territories where human use is high.
whatever the moral aspect, they have been successful at preventing attacks where they exist.
I have been surprised at the emotional nature of the argument on both sides. The debate might almost have been designed to mask more significant issues. As caml suggested the massive global extent of over fishing is a much more serious issue than the depletion of a local shark population, then there is the degradation and loss of coral reefs on a massive scale, ocean acidification and the warming of the oceans; all more important and rarely mentioned in any media, mass or surf.
blindboy. AIDS is a problem, but global starvation is worse. Lets stop the AIDS effort and focus on starvation. No?
global over fishing is a problem and it needs addressing but so too does unnecessarily killing sharks. why is it necessary to remove this risk in order for people to enjoy the ocean. would people stop going to the beach if the culling was not introduced? of course not - the vast majority would still go and take the risk. why? because the threat is inconceivably small ! how many people in perth die each year of shark attacks? I don't know the exact answer but on average over past decades its probably less than 1 or thereabouts. someone feel free to tell me that stats for the perth area im keen to know the answer. so my question is in whose mind is this problem an unacceptable threat? its definitely an overreaction
Markus the issue is seven fatal attacks in West Oz in the past three years, three occurred within two months in 2011. That to me says there is an imbalance over here which in my opinion has been squarely caused by humans, whether that be overfishing, removal of shark fishing licences, protection of some shark species, protection of the GWS' favourite food being seals and humpback whales . If we have caused the problem then I believe we need to resolve it and managing a species that has no piscatorial predators is a good start in my book. I wonder how many protestors have eaten fish and chips and ordered flake?
No argument from me markus. I tend to stay away from explicitly arguing against the WA scheme as I live in Sydney which has had meshing for the entire time I have been surfing and I have never seen or heard of a demonstration against it....in the circumstances it would be hypocritical to actively oppose the WA scheme. Do we need a more balanced policy nationwide? Yes, but there many other issues of equal or greater importance and being of the Hunter S Thompson school.....you can never be paranoid enough.....I can't help but wonder why this issue has had such an ongoing high profile.
BB totally agree with there being bigger issues...your right on there...but these never make it into politics with any sane/rational discussion. federal politics and climate change was a clear example of political insanity. this is just a very neatly contained fear campaign that the premier can throw a known bucket of spare money at (wasted money that is) and be seen to solve an issue that was never a big problem. and im not trying to disrespect those who have lost loved ones. but how will the "success" of this catch and kill policy be measured? if the number of deaths was so low to start with then it cannot be measured in any meaningful way. waste of money in my opinion - put it to better use.
Markus you need to look at trends and the trend over here is not a good one. I think you may have already disrespected those who have lost loved ones with your comments but hey you are entitled to your view. Compare the shark attack stats (fatal and non-fatal) in West Oz to the same stats in QLD and I think you have your answer on how the success of a campaign such as the one recently implemented here in West Oz can be measured but only time will tell. I'm all for research but that takes time and we needed something done now so I'm all for it, take some of the bigger buggers that are coming too close to shore, and staying too close to shore, out of the picture. If you polled all of the surfers here in the west I reckon you'd find that a lot are also of the same opinion.
Quokka if you want to go on about trends why don't you look at how many more people are in the water now than a few years ago. Also you can't compare QLD with WA because White Sharks are rarely found that far north anyway so say goodbye to that little argument of yours. Your all for research but it takes time and you need something done? So when the sharks are dead, and the seal numbers sky rocket and then all the fish are eaten and the whole marine ecosystem collapses will you be putting your hand up to say "oh yeah, i was one of those dumb guys who acted first and thought later, now were all f%$cked. Sorrryyyyy."? This is serious sh#t people, global starvation is going to be a serious concern in the next 50 years, 14-16% of all animal protein consumed is from seafood. If we destroy our marine ecosystem, who will feed the billion mouths that rely on the sea for food every day? But nah that's ok mate, go kill the sharks cos they killed 7 people in the last 3 years, those billion mouth can starve right? People really don't understand how fragile the marine ecosystem is... If something must be "done now" why don't you stay out of the water. Thats a perfect solution.
Hahaha whoa ease up tiger you'll put yourself in a grave getting all worked up like that! I'm glad you have all the answers. Your attitude is melodramatic to say the least. I have not condoned wiping out shark populations simply taking out the dangerous GWS's that frequent areas that human inhabit. To say the marine ecosystem would collapse is nonsense...now that is a dumb comment, strange coming from a self professed lover of smart guys. I always find it amusing that people like you place a fish above humans.
Quokka are you a marine scientist?
Do you know what can occur from killing apex predators in the marine ecosystem?
How are you going to only kill the "dangerous GWS's" and not the other sharks that you assume aren't dangerous?
Did you know that wobbegong's can be dangerous? Government didn't put those on the target list did they? How am I supporting fish over humans? I clearly stated that we need to protect our marine ecosystem as a whole because it is already under huge pressure and a BILLION people rely on it for food every day. Most of those people don't have a choice to go eat chicken once there's no fish left like you do. If you seriously don't think marine ecosystems can collapse then you are clearly a very naive person. I am in Vietnam right now, and I'm telling you there's fucking less fish here because it is overfished, same in Cambodia, same in Thailand.
YOU, on the other hand, are placing your own selfish piece of mind in the water above sharks just because you are too much of a wimp to get in the water when only 7 people have been killed by sharks in your state in the last 3 years. More people are likely to be killed by vending machines.
There is scientific proof that your suggestion of "taking out the dangerous GWS's" DOES NOT WORK, just like the nets and drum lines.
And yes I am self professed lover of smart guys, why would anyone choose an ignorant, naive dumbass who bases his opinion on heresy and fear mongering over an intelligent scientist who works his/her butt off for the good of the community and bases his/her opinion on collaborated data and facts.
No. Yes. We've had two 4.5m GWS's within 100m of metropolitan beaches here in Perth recently and they could easily have been dealt with, without affecting another fish/animal in the ocean, hardly going to cause the collapse of the marine ecosystem. I suppose anything can be dangerous Mitch. Wobbegong's on the target list is another idiotic and sensationalist comment. People in other countries don't have a choice to go and eat chicken, you've got to be kidding me, I've been in some pretty poor places in the world and they all had chickens. I know marine ecosystems can collapse, I never said they couldn't, get your facts straight and I am far from naive. I don't disagree that overfishing in SE Asia is an issue. A wimp, interesting comment that Mitch, easy to make from behind a keyboard. Haha the old vending machine chestnut...funny stuff Mitch. There's also statistical proof that the nets and drum lines do work, always two sides to an argument. I'm not going to stoop to getting personal like yourself.
Two questions for you big fella:
1. Who/what manages the GWS population if humans don't, have you ever considered that the competition between GWS's for territory and food due to their increasing numbers is driving them into areas where they never used to frequent?
2. Do you live in Australia and if yes in which state?
How would you "deal" with them? Well, you're not a marine scientist so you don't know whether or not it will cause a collapse of a marine system do you? Not that I'm saying killing two would, but you're not the one to say if it would or wouldn't are you? I beg the differ on people not having the choice to eat chicken and thats a matter that will surely come up in the next 50 years. I'm glad you think overfishing in SE Asia is an issue, we agree. Laugh at vending machines all you want but its statistically correct that people should be more afraid of them than sharks.
I have read scientific articles that have explained that nets and drumlines don't work heres one:
http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/Documents/occasional_publications/fop108.pdf
Can you send me your side to the argument with scientific proof please? Appreciate.
In response to your questions:
1. You may be absolutely spot on about Great Whites competing for territory and food driving them to less frequently used areas however I doubt it, seeing as there is scientific proof that most attacks occur in metro areas where more people frequent the area. It seems obvious. More people in the water = more attacks. Simple solution - stay out the water.
2. I live in South Australia, I have been surfing, fishing, boating and spearfishing since I was about 6 years old as I have a beach house on Kangaroo Island. I also frequent Eyre Peninsula and Yorke Peninsula. In my life I have seen 2 Great Whites. One was five metres off the south coast of KI, chasing seals shortly after my family and I had been swimming in the same area. The second was last year in October while surfing at "dump" near Victor Harbor, it was 4-5m long about 50m offshore and 30m away from me. The comforting factor was that although the shark could easily have attacked me, it didn't. It powered towards me, sunk beneath the surface and never showed itself again. Being the only one out I still shit myself and paddled to shore. I've also dived with sharks in Queensland without a cage at Wolf Rock Dive. Both of these experiences have left me with a different perspective of sharks in that they are a lot more cautious than most think and don't simply attack anything for no reason. If the the shark I saw while surfing was hungry it had plenty of opportunity to attack me but it didn't but even if it did it would have been MY fault for being in the water and taking the risk.
Put some lead in them. I don't need to be a marine scientist, I can say that by removing a few GWS's from the ecosystem in WA it would definitely not cause it's collapse. If you're saying only marine scientists can comment on this, I would hope you're one of them? You asked for evidence, see the conclusions section on pg 16 http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/extra/pdf/fishweb/sharksafetyreport.pdf.
"More people in the water = more attacks" I disagree, I have been surfing in Perth and SW WA for the past 23 years and there has always been crowds in both locations but shark attacks have only been an issue in the past 5 or so years, it was never thought or spoken about prior to that. To say "there is scientific proof that most attacks occur in metro areas where more people frequent the area" is incorrect in WA, most attacks over here have occurred outside metro areas. The situation is specific to SW WA and whilst I acknowledge SA has it's own issues with GWS's the attacks here are unprecedented, so unless you live here and are affected by it then you can't really comment on what is going on here. To say stay out of the water is the solution is simplistic, unintelligent and unreasonable. The ocean is not only their domain, we have every right to use it and have been for thousands of years. I'm happy for you that you can rationalise taking the risk of being attacked, seeing you have a wife and kids, especially when you are aware that the risk is dramatically increased. I still go in the water but I am no longer comfortable and I think if you ask a lot of the WA surfers if this was the case they'd say the same. I know a number of surfers over here who are also spooked but it's only the PC minority speaking out against the drumlines that get the air time.
Very interesting comments from one of your SA brothers who witnessed his mate be non-fatally attacked by a GWS two days ago off Elliston, http://surfinglife.com.au/news/sl-news/11414-what-it-s-like-to-watch-you.... He seems to support action similar to what is going on here in WA.
quokka its fine for anyone to comment on this but they must take the science seriously and actually do their homework. It's an interesting report isn't it, i'm sure a lot of marine scientists shake their head at it in disbelief like i do...
It says that the average size white shark caught is less than 3m - I've seen research that white sharks under 3m have been known only to eat fish until they are at least 3m in length when they then start targeting seals and bigger prey. You'll also notice how many less white sharks are caught in comparison with all other sharks. This is because there are less white sharks in QLD, and seeing as these are the main offenders when it comes to human shark attacks in Perth comparing a report from QLD to Perth is like comparing apples and oranges.
My issue is that you guys over in Perth think that killing a few sharks will solve the problem, while i don't think it will because what you don't seem to understand is that the white sharks travel huge distances and are always on the move. Even if you kill one big white shark, another one will come along. Then you'll kill that one, and another comes along and so on. Until what? You've killed every big white shark that travels from South Africa and across to Victoria and back? I'm going to put it out there, it's only a matter of time before someone else get attacked in Perth and SA- drumlines or no drumlines. You might feel more comfortable but I would not be. I think the risk is the same now as it ever has been so get ready for more attacks because people are not going to stop going in the water.
Yeah I saw that article, he also seemed to think there was shark blood on the board after a long paddle back to shore...righto mate haha that would have washed off in 5 seconds. Little bit dramatic and biased by the Australian - not impressed at their gutter journalism but you can't expect any more from the media these days can you?
You're not actually serious about people thinking sharks weren't an issue 5 years ago? Come on mate pull the other one! Seen "Jaws"?! People have been scared of sharks since long before surfing was a sport, and its based on fear and ignorance of something they didn't understand just as it is now.
Interesting site for WA attack statistics http://www.washarkattacks.net/shark-attacks.php.
http://theconversation.com/how-to-prevent-shark-attacks-20890
I read on another forum today that Qld has 344 drum lines and 35 nets, the info can be found here http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/extra/pdf/fishweb/sharksafetyreport.pdf
So we're talking 8 drum lines in SW WA, versus 344 in qld alone. Lets get a bit of perspective here.
Thank you for running this article as lot of people over here are getting really frustrated with the hypocrisy we are hearing. Nothing makes a sandgroper react more than being told what to do by the east coast, even if they disagree with the policy .
Time for the great man to come out of retirement - Vic Hislop WA needs you!!
@ Markus
The drum lines and nets are part of a proven system of habitat regulation and population control.
Quote "The NSW Department of Primary industries states the nets have 'never been regarded as a means of absolutely preventing any attacks', but help to deter sharks from establishing territories. The netting program began in 1937 and during 70 years while the nets have been in operation, there has been only one fatal attack on a netted beach."
Somebody please tell me that drum lines (Sunshine Coast/Noosa) and nets (eastern suburbs/northern beaches) don’t have any practical, justifiable effect on minimising shark attacks?
There are many to quickly jump on the bandwagon for pro-animal rights and pro-shark rallying, however it should be remembered there are always two sides to each policy.
The recent decision by the WA Government was already warned of prior, we all knew it was coming sooner or later.
If the number of water users killed by shark incidents (note I don’t refer to these as attacks – part of the media’s fault lies in the exaggeration and glorification of events) drops in WA, I am fully behind the drum line system being used.
I am originally from Kwa-Zulu Natal where the exact same netting program to that of NSW is being used.
Speak to any of the net ‘cleaners’ or drum line guys and many of you will be intrigued (to say the least) by what these nets & drum lines are doing on a day-to-day basis. Let alone what is being pulled up.
Yes there are dolphins occasionally caught as well as other unintended victims, but with any measure such as this there is going to be a degree of bycatch.
One death or 100 deaths, it's still a human life that’s been lost.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that over the years, WA clearly has a growing problem.
I back the decision by the WA government, not for personal reasons but for a wider public policy objective.
Unfortunately, I do not support the ‘tree-hugger/nature eco-warrior/rainbow woolly hat/fingerless glove’ types that instantly hop online to sign up to misinformed ‘petitions’ against policy decisions such as this.
No offence.
no offence taken...it seems from your investigation that nets work- so why not just start with them, that'll at least keep the family happy at Cottesloe. but that's not same as a catch and kill policy for anything over 3m that includes the environment listed great white. randomly culling what must be hundreds of sharks (maybe order of magnitude more over time) just doesn't a seem logical solution to what is comparatively with other everyday life risk such a small chance of death/injury. divers and surfers who want to exist outside the nets know the risk and will continue to do it. the recent deaths in WA might seem like a lot in a short space of time but does not represent a long term trend yet. the problem with these policies is that once implemented are difficult discretely remove without causing another big issue. this is clearly aimed at quelling the fear campaign gripping WA and probably all the potential holiday makers. and the latter would be a big part of the premiers concern for sure. that's about the only rational "public policy objective" that I see fit and even then its very weak so the premier would never admit that. the whole "keeping wa people" safe is a fine argument for the premier if he is trying to protect every last citizen from any harm that could ever conceivably come to them, but that's never going to happen, and never needs to either. do people really think this is a big threat to their safety? It just doesn't stack up for me.
Somebody please tell me that drum lines (Sunshine Coast/Noosa) and nets (eastern suburbs/northern beaches) don’t have any practical, justifiable effect on minimising shark attacks?
Here you go bokrsa: The NSW Scientific Fisheries Committee disagrees. It has made a submission to each of the four reports on the Shark Meshing Program (SMP) in NSW from 2009 to 2013, stating the following: “The Annual Performance Report includes the statement that ‘The SMP has been effective at providing a safer environment for swimmers’. As the Committee has done in its review letters in previous years, it reiterates that this statement is unsubstantiated because it is not based on a scientific comparison between meshed and unmeshed beaches of shark numbers, interactions or attacks.”
https://www.greenpeace.org.au/action/?cid=60
borska, no offence taken but as you said you are a kiwi living on the east coast. We are looking at having the drumlines set here in Prevelly (margaret river) at the end of summer, they are currently set off Perth beaches and between Dunsborough and Gracetown. Whatever your take on killing marine species so humans can feel safer while in the ocean how would you feel if suddenly they decided to turn your surfline into a shark trap ? The drum lines are set 1km from the shore so as to "attract" the shraks swimming close enough to shore that they may attack someone. Currently the Dunsborough lines are set less than 1km from a popular dive site (a ship was sunk for the purpose of scuba diving). In Maragret River many of the surf breaks (when big anyhow) are actually 1km + out from the shore, does this make sense? Does setting a line with whale meat baits bought from japan perhaps attract sharks in? I am no rocket scientist but that does seem a possibility. The local boardriders clubs from Margs and Yallingup have jumped on board in vocal support of the cull and seem to have hijacked the voice of the 90% of the rest of the surfers on our coast with their media face, throwing ex pro surfers out there because they are "experts" on our coastline (does Dmac have a degree in anything remotely like marine biology or fisheries?)
The jaws style hysteria we are facing in WA at the moment is beyond a joke, wake up to yourselves guys and please don,t compare us to the east coast or south Africa for that matter, the population boom over the last decade = many many more people using the surf. This year we have had more whales,crayfish, more seals,even tropical fishes such as spanish mackeral! and a general shift in sea life in the sw, sharks eat all of these things as well not just the odd person out of 6 billion. If you ever planned to surf outer reef surf in WA you better get in fast.
I would be more concerned about all those freshly baited cray pots than a few hooks attracting any sharks in
Always a nice feeling when paddling out north of Lanno and my niece would say "Johnno can you smell the cray bait?" Or the silvery fatty film of the baits on the water's surface...
mikehunt207, obviously there are a lot of considerations here - I haven't actually considered the affects of drum lines on adjacent breaks/ surf spots. However, I can say that I've surfed near to drumlines (Sunshine Coast) and didn't feel any different to surfing near shark nets to be quite honest.
I think what it really comes down to is finding a balance.
The government are only trying to find a medium between human fear factor and public pressure.
"This year we have had more whales,crayfish, more seals,even tropical fishes such as spanish mackeral! and a general shift in sea life in the sw, sharks eat all of these things as well not just the odd person out of 6 billion"
I suppose it wouldnt stretch the imagination to think that shark numbers could perhaps be on the increase with this? But then again, what data are we really using to measure shark numbers? Mere estimates? These animals travel vast distances and occupy multiple areas throughout their lifetime.
Either way, WA's local government has to respond proportionately to what is an ongoing & impossible battle to keeping everybody safe.
Some of the different speciation observed locally may be due to water temp/Leeuwin current changes, warm water blooms like in 2010 bring many species well away from their usually defined 'ranges', you would have to check this.
Too true Johnno
I shot my first WA mackie off the back of Inji point back in 2004 when I first moved to WA. I wasn't expecting it to be there but then I wasn't going to say no either as it swum past!.
Dolphin fish (mahi mahi) have even been caught off Albany as a result of a strong Leewin current.
Exactly the same thing happens on the East Coast every summer with the EAC bringing down the warm water and thus the pelagic species follow.
humans hauling sharks out of the ocean then not eating these fish is truly a waste of time ! ? surely theres a better way to run this earth (as humans do)
Whats a "provoked" shark attack?
Hey big nose, bite me!???
Ha! It's an attack, if you can call it that, when the shark responds to something humans have already done to it.
If a fisherman catches a shark, hauls it on deck, and then it bites the fisho, that's considered a provoked attack.
And if one of the Mad Hueys jumped overboard next to a shark with a bird cage on their head that'd probably be a provoked attack too.
Definitely provoked if you're jumping in next to a shark wearing a bird cage. That's provocation at its finest! Ha.
The government is using the issue to create a distraction via the 'divide and conquer philosophy'. The numbers of sharks killed by these methods (although I dont condone them) pale in comparison to the thousands of tons of fish that are killed as bi-catch and not used/eaten but thrown back to the sea. It pales in comparison to the hundreds of dolphins killed each year in Japan and Norway which are not eaten or used but killed. In the Japanese case to support the marine park industry (we've all seen "The Cove" surely), the Norwegians slaughter similar numbers simply as part of a festival, the animals die slowly after being hacked to near death by large hooks. Why does this not become a big issue in the media? Because these issues would not divide the community and create such a strong distraction - nobody would support these killings if they saw them. In the case of the GWS in W.A the issue is highly emotive on the side of the conservationists and also on the side of those that want protection from the fear generated by this campaign - the community can be easily divided and left to argue amongst themselves, distracting them from the many far more important issues that the government wants less attention attracted to - dredging the Barrier Reef, fracking for CSG, agitating Indonesia or whatever it maybe.
Could it just be that the rate of shark media, attention and keffufle is higher in WA simply due to the higher ratio of attacks.. We know the media loves a shark story, and when the fish are biting ( pardon the pun ) the cameras, reporters and jurno's will be there with their caramel soy late's.
Is their less attention to the east coast because the shark prevention systems are working? Or is the east coast just better at keeping it under wraps and not being so public.. ?
I'm all for shark prevention techniques via netting and tag and trace methods, but catching a shark with half a tuna on a hook and then shooting it in the head with a ''12 gauge is fucked. We as surfers enter their playpen and I speak for a lot of us in saying I'm willing to run the risk for the thrill we all seek.
My letter to the Australian criticising the editorial - http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/editorials/wa-entitled-to-cull-sha... - didn't make it into print - but for what it's worth, here's my take on its misleading, broad-brushed claims:
In your editorial (“WA entitled to cull sharks”, 29/1), you make several sweeping statements that cannot go unchallenged.
You state, “Every year along the nation’s east coat (sic), hundreds of sharks are killed by nets and baited drum-lines”, however, you fail to mention that many of the sharks killed are not those regarded as species responsible for unprovoked fatal attacks – white, tiger and bull (whaler) sharks (ref: the Australian Shark Attack File). While this is true of Queensland, where the majority of sharks caught by drum lines are tiger sharks (around 200 in 2005), notwithstanding that Queensland’s targeted ‘high risk sharks’, include ‘other whalers’ (around 190 in 2005) and hammerhead sharks (around 60 in 2005), in NSW it is a different story, where only nets are used.
Further, A Report into the Queensland Shark Safety Program (2006) states that the “hammerhead species is added to this high risk group, not so much for its proven attack history in the Queensland context, but for its local abundance”.
Meanwhile, in NSW, which has experienced one death at a meshed beach since meshing began in 1937; according to four annual NSW Department of Primary Industries reports, Shark Meshing (Bather Protection) Program Annual Performance Report, which quote statistics from 2008/09 to 2012/13, the total entanglements at beaches protected by meshing amounted to only 10 tiger sharks, 37 white sharks and four bull sharks. Of these, six of the tiger sharks and seven of the white sharks were released. This would seem to rebut your ‘right to cull’ argument. The NSW government targeted 10 shark species in 2011/12 and caught 53 in total. Of the 105 non-targeted species caught,63 died in the nets. During this time, the nets were hauled 5,391 times.
Your editorial also states, “…indisputably while thousands of sharks have been killed, many human lives have been saved”, and your subheading announces that “Control programs have saved lives on the east coast”. The NSW Scientific Fisheries Committee disagrees. It has made a submission to each of the four reports on the Shark Meshing Program (SMP) in NSW, stating the following: “The Annual Performance Report includes the statement that ‘The SMP has been effective at providing a safer environment for swimmers’. As the Committee has done in its review letters in previous years, it reiterates that this statement is unsubstantiated because it is not based on a scientific comparison between meshed and unmeshed beaches of shark numbers, interactions or attacks.”
You quote WA Treasurer Troy Buswell’s accusation that protesters have acted hysterically and that their opposition to the government’s policy is “lunacy”, and comment that “he has a point”. Maybe he does, or perhaps your editorial has provided factitious support for what many regard as an irrational decision by the WA government.
"or perhaps your editorial has provided factitious support for what many regard as an irrational decision by the WA government".
Sorry mate, but you mean fictitious, right?
fac·ti·tious [fak-tish-uhs] adjective
1. not spontaneous or natural; artificial; contrived: factitious laughter; factitious enthusiasm.
2. made; manufactured: a decoration of factitious flowers and leaves.
fic·ti·tious [fik-tish-uhs] adjective
1. created, taken, or assumed for the sake of concealment; not genuine; false: fictitious names.
2. of, pertaining to, or consisting of fiction; imaginatively produced or set forth; created by the imagination: a fictitious hero.
Almost a synonym perhaps? But hey, we're splitting hairs.
Just got out of the Water at Trigg Point and we could see the drum lines being set , no one was upset or commenting that they did not like the drum lines going in so in this little part of the world there seems to be support at least in the water.
Gee am I sick of this little Chesnut convo ' going on around town .... Fuck me drunk if i here one more person ( that clearly does not know Ocean form Sea from bay/estuary ) talk this and that on statistics or "its their realm " whatever ...
Stat's don't work to underline the problem , clearly unless you use the water as much as your car then perhaps this is a better relationship ... but maybe if people actually used similar statistics ... like you have more chance of being hit by a volvo driven by a female Asian driver under the influence ......
lets not forget the many different ways to die from Automobiles , and then lets talk about time of usage or interaction ......
Thats it for me .... just sick of muppets ( present company exempt ) but general do gooders not thinking beyond their Ideologies .... for what its worth I've been close to 2 degrees or 3 degrees of seperation from most of the fatalities in SA / WA in the last 20 years , I'm from Vic as some of you know , and i don't agree with netting . But i just can't stand media ( outsiders or the famous ) having a more lofty opinion than the local authorities .... the WA fisheries are a strong outfit that usually don't give in to populist politician's whim's easily , I'm sure this was discussed in length at high levels ... Anyway i'm tired of this debate , lets go surfviving .
Wow.. a massive turn out in Perth today in protest against the cull.
This is what should of happened......!
Why weren't the Manly protesters doing this years ago as NSW shark prevention measures have been in place for decades, but only choose to protest now on the back of what is happening in WA ?
I wonder what would happen if all the great whites in WA relocated to Manly and Bondi beach and they had the stastics of 7 fatalities in 3 years....
I'm over this so call debate/cull and all the double standards being thrown around, bullshit by media groups both for and against.
Time to go for a surf and hope my number doesn't come up
Take away the shark nets on the East Coast? Surely you can't be serious? Let's look at population density in areas where there are nets vs. that of WA. It's a no brainer. Over the 2012/13 financial year, 713 sharks were caught in nets off the Queensland Coast. Almost half of these were over 2m in size.
The reason this wasnt done years ago in Manly is that there was no sustained media campaign and no social media to push the agenda at the public who wanna bit of feel good action that is easy to become involved in, I doubt many would have as good an understanding of the issues as most of the posters in this thread. These arent Greenies/Eco-Warriors/Tree Huggers, these are everyday middle class people for the most part, who have been co-opted to the cause by a well constructed media campaign backed by the W.A government. Its totally disingenuous, ill bet when this group leave the beach its covered in rubbish.
good on the people at the beach telling collin they dont like his new policy.
stop comparing wa to the east coast.east coast is a nanny state where you have rules for everything fines for everything ect.dosent suprise me they dont like sharks and the people who live there expect to be "protected"from them.
wa still has a wild coast which some people dont want fucking people going around shotgun in hand killing massive sharks.yals and margs boardriders dont speak for all the water users in wa. and southy its not your "realm" it is theres whether you like it or not.also the wa fisheries is a goverment department they do not make there own decisions if they dont like somthing even if they are a "strong outfit"what ever the fuck that means.
mtown ,
I'm over this subject ... its a land mine ....
i fuckin hate it when people try and glorify animals ... FFS .... yes I'll do what the fuck i like ..... I owe it to the thousands of generations that came before me . To live the life their effort seeded ... coe towing to peoples " views" on a shit word like " realm " . I love animals , always have ... but lets not confuse their place in this Food chain / pecking order . seriously , realists will unite one day and you guys are gonna be fucked . your just lucky we are lazy ..... and too busy havin a good time to interupt your " the worlds gonna end " nah sayers convention .... and anyone condoning tagging and research is in my boat as clearly then they are NOT letting them just be ..... ( natural in natural state ) . People who pay money to dive with them in cages are on another planet all together , accessory to murder .... coz' at the end of the day they are contributing to their behaviours .... Next week people can march and declare that ALL fishing must stop , including Rec. ....
The govt . ( even WA ) being a government , will feel no matter what they are obliged ... and if it doesn't go down that path and it follows Reunion's lead , how will the split be in the crowd when half decide that its right we shouldn't enter their realm at all , and the others ( like the water users here posting against WA's action will be left alone in the middle .... this is only going to get uglier ... and all you grass roots guys that love the water and all in it will be rueing the day that you encouraged joe ( metro westie / new age bogans / animal lovers ) public to join your protest ... because push come to shove they will turn this country back to what it was liek 100 years ago ... when you could only enter the water before dusk and after sunset ..... that would be fun over east near all the river entrances ..... good luck kids ... ya gonna need it ....
Supposedly 6000 protestors at Cott today (half would have been children who have been brainwashed), that makes it 0.3% of the 2 million people in Perth. I'd call that a minority, and no one gives a shit what they say, I certainly don't. The only people prospering out of this whole scenario is the mainstream media who keep pedalling bullshit stories. Col keep on drum lining as the new age hippy greenie wanna be world savers will get bored of it and move on to promoting crocheting beanies or some shit.
2 million people in WA and 1 death in 2013.....that's represents a 0.00005% mortality rate to the WA public and the culling program will cost $2million per year. now compare that to tobacco related deaths in WA being in excess of 1000 people per year. so by comparison WA should be spending $2 billion dollars each year on tobacco control but in fact only spends some $7 million (2008) as then cops a monster hospital bill due to smoking related illnesses.
So if Mr Barnett wished to introduce a $2 billion smoking prevention program tomorrow using a new $2000 tax to each and every one of WA’s one million strong workforce then WA people would clearly say fuck that and vote the guy out.
I heard somewhere that 60 people die every year in Australia from bee stings which would be about 5 or 6 in WA proportionally. Based off this then WA government should spending some $10 million dollars every year on bee attack prevention programs. I’m not even going to bother investigating how much money the WA or any other state spends on bee attack prevention programs because I can safely assume it doesn’t exist. Clearly bees don’t have quite the same “shit your wetsuit” value, and will never make for a movie trilogy.
Politicians aren’t here to make you "safe", don't be fooled.
eastcoast/westcoast aside, it seems logic is thrown out the window when its faced with a toothed monster from the deep. I’d say some balance is need all round on this topic
Are you directly affected by what's going on over here?
do you mean....did I spend most of my life in WA, do I live in WA now?, or am I a surfer?, or am I a greeny?, or am I just someone who gets the shits with politicians making unbalanced decisions regardless of east/west coast.
Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes.
I'm glad the NSW and QLD shark nets have been mentioned. I was thinking people were being a bit hypocritical.
The debate has been disappointing. Any view supporting netting has been shouted down as "wholesale slaughter of sharks", or "If you can't take the risk don't surf"etc.
The NSW coastline is 2137 Km. 51 beaches are netted with the average net about 150m long. 51 x 150m is 7.65km. That is 0.36% of the NSW coastline netted. Does this constitute the wholesale slaughter of sharks?
So give the surfers of WA a beak. The WA coastline is HUGE. They are talking about thinning out sharks in a TINY area, and only in areas popular with surfers where fatalities have occurred
Sharks have survived since the dinosaurs. They are not stupid. A couple of nets on a VAST coastline are not going to threaten their survival as a species.
So over Do Gooders,most of those people protesting are doing it cause it makes them feel good as though they are doing something good for the planet,brain washed .No one has suggested wiping out sharks,just taking out a few possible offenders.Your never going to stop all attacks but doing something is better than doing nothing.This is just like the crocodile problem they now have by letting them breed up to much.
Im with Rosso on this and he has made some good points.I think the drum line thing should be done in the areas where they have the most problems and around the months which the attacks happen the most.
How can anyone compare a bee sting death to a shark attack?Like comparing a headon car crash to dying in bed.The amount of people that are affected by a shark bite goes right down the line ,think of all the people who will be affected for the rest of there lives,from relatives,police,eye witnesses etc etc
Not going to mention where or what it is but some interesting numbers from 2006 to 2012
11 dead dolphins
5 dead sea lions
19 dead NZ fur seals
17 dead great whites
and 116 dead grey nurses
Where are all the protesters for this ?
Silence.....Silence.....Silence...... which is just the way it should be.
Just goes to show how easily the average joe can be brainwashed by the green groups as they all follow each other around like sheep over something that doesn't even register on the radar in the real world
Yeah crazy world every year all kinds of harmless sea animals even harmless sharks get killed in our shark nets around Australia its been going on forever and you hear little about this.
Then on the flip side when they actually go out and approach the situation in a more sensible way, being selective and only killing sharks that are of a species and size that could be dangerous in an area that has a problem everyone gets upset?
I thinks its the medias fault, most people don't realise the destruction that shark nets do even the word/image "net" doesn't sound bad it just seems like a protective barrier, while the word "cull" sounds bad.
Any numbers associated with the nsw and qld shark prevention measures would be additinal to those number above aswell.
killing the largest sharks over 3meters dosent realy make much sense as they eat smaller sharks and clear them from areas where they are.
couldent careless about the policies on the east coast.place is already a over developed over crowded lost cause.when you surf in the nw you surf with large numbers of all sharks including whites, plenty of people in the water up there and there dosent seem to be people getting eaten every day.as sugested will happen by some people.
also you can kill all the whalers and tigers ya want there not protected cuz there is heaps of them. whites are protected.sharks are not in any way like crocs they dont lay 30 eggs at a time with at least half or more growing to adult size.prety sure a white dosent have 30 pups in a go.also the whole baiting 1klm off ya beach has me more worried that will bring more in to look for the bait even if there not the one to get it.then what?you got a hungry shark whos been brought in for food that isent there.smart move. so that drum line you see of trigg is bringing sharks to it ,next stop the point.ha thats fucking funny.mabey fisheries could get done for "accesory to murder"as suggested by southy for cage divers.hahaha.
your last post southy is just strange,"live the life there effort seeded"?what they frigg dose that even mean??"turn this country back to what it was like 100 years ago"??sounds good to me, think alot of people would agree.also all the bogan westies and stupid hippies and all the animal lovers do have a right to say that they dont want this to happen if they want.alot of the posts on here just show your arrogant personalities that think you are better that the bogans,westies, working joes ect.
we dont need to make the same stupid mistakes that the east coast has been making for years.wa is a wild coast it sould stay that way.dont want to bring up the your scared thing but i will if you carnt handel your fear dont go in the water.its a natural human emotion to protect you from dangerious situations.going to go comb my beard now peace.
Mtown, there are thousands of cray pots from the south west corner all the way to Kalbarri which are re-baited on a daily basis, with old bait thrown overboard.
A few hooks in the water is going to have nil impact to what is already coming from the cray pots.
I think I heard a Greens senator call the lines going in a "meat tree", that made me laugh but others out there believe!
Don't go to Abrolhos when cray season is on mate. You won't see the wildness for all the diesel fumes and pots.
The whole WA coast is commercially fished. I know, I've been out there doing it.
Very well managed fisheries too.
Cant be that well managed Freeride the whole thing was a basket case recently.
what are they going to do if they catch a 7meter white?biggest one ever?been around for fucking yonks. shoot it in the head?
Nice. that would look good on the tv.
The scary thought is that once all the Average Joe's have been brainwashed which is happening, what is going to happen at the next elections on a local and national level.
They will want to lock up more national parks, marine parks and sanctuary zones so you can say good bye to accessing you hidden surf spot up the coast, make you pay entry fees, seal the roads so there is now 100 people in there.
Further restrict our right to go fishing (our fisheries are the best managed anywhere in the world and very sustainable), stop coastal access, no 4wd's on the beaches and push bush camping out the door.
It's a very scary thought where all this may lead to.
hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!that is a little over the top and off subject isent it mister leroy.that isent happening.no new paved roads going in anywhere in the next 100 years but probably should be as im sure they have claimed more lives than the whites.most of that stuff would never make it through as everyone in wa has a landcruzer hilux or duelcab 4+4. and uses it to go camping fishing ect.i think you are pulling my leg with the post above as it is so sensational and linked to the topic by nothing.hahahahahahahaha makes for funny reding though on a sundayhahahahaha!!!!!
also the sw boardriders and locals in the sw tried to stop craypots being placed around yals margs breaks 7 or 8 years ago for that exact reason used to have one of the stickers something like no pots off sw or somthing.anyways a bait targeting a shark is going to do that bring a shark to it thats how you fish,use the bait for the species.
so a bait for a shark especialy to get the big ones over 3m will bring in sharks.or the contractors or who ever, arent doing a very good job.
Not pulling your leg at all Mtown.
Our family holiday destination in NSW was turned into marine parks and grey nurse sanctuary zone so you were no longer able to go fishing there. They turned the bush behind the beach into national park and blocked off all access.
And why was this ? because of the green movement and incorrect information on grey nurse numbers.
That was one of the reasons I moved to WA was because of all the restrictions on what you can and can't do because people with no idea made up the rules and the rest of us just had to live with it.
If you head north in WA on a surf/fish trip then you have to keep checking your GPS ever 5 minutes to make sure you haven't drifted into a sanctuary zone.
Just all seems a bit of an over kill when we have one of the best managed fisheries in the world, very tight bag limits and total fishing closure periods that last a couple of months (no fishing at all), and then the green groups still want to lock it all up.
They have already opened up new roads over here, Wedge Island is now a circus, sealing roads to breaks down here in the south, trying to block off 4wd tracks and stopping 4wd beach access.
Only a matter of time I am afraid.
Biggest problem here was a pro fisher dumping all his fish frames in the middle of cow bay, not the smartest thing to do
mtown ,
i meant that , to not do what i like ( would be not showing respect for the suffering and survival that my ancestors have managed to get through to bring myself into existence ) ....
ie all this modern thought about a whole lot of " isms " is just totally disconnected with reality ..... Idealists completely don't get it and condone past behaviours and general processes as antiquated without realising that things are a certain way because they have EVOLVED .... But you can' t simply disconnect from that and move into a perfectectly harminous existance .... there are consequences to every decision , and before everyone thinks that I'm a knuckle dragger , think before you post you cannot go forward without fully undertstanding where we have come from ... The world has gone all soft .... Its not eliteist , we aren't arrogant ... just getting sick of listening to the bullshit that many dribble on about ....
If you guys are winging about the " image " of whovever shooting an animal on TV or whatever ... HOW THE F*&^& do you think that you are here in this life ....
how about we set up cameras' on that 7M white and then you can all watch the beautifully natural occurance of what killers do ( i'm not overly sensitive to sharks , the thought of them or whatever , otherwise i wouldn't have surfed solo hundreds of times in remote areas renowned for their existence . if you think that a 7M white has got to its age without getting its [ hands dirty so to speak ] your kidding yourelves ] .... I'm sure when a child of teenager gets taken you'll all be getting stuck into the parents for letting them in the water ...
the other thing about 100 yrs ago was in relation to people not being allowed to enter the water for bathing or recreation during daylight hours ...... !
anyway this is not me wanting whatever .. its me complaining about the ludicrous behaviour by some people that clearly know very little about the water let alone vast majorities of our coastal regions .... I'm not trying to embarass you , but you clealry don't know your own state if you unaware of what has happened at wedge , DS and wherever else with coastal access .... its going to be the tip of the iceberg if you guys give in to idealists .
anyway i wonder how many Dolphin tattoos (or is it Japanese phrase tattoo's that are in these days ) were present at these " protests " .... 90 % of people( mainly chicks but less a divide lately ) i've met that champion or idolise dolphins barely set foot in the water ..... hence my generalisation of who makes up these crowds ....
not embarassed mister south if ya talking about new sealed roads and access im refering to spots that most do not go to with real waves ,not tourist destiations where every westoz goes once a year.compleatly off topic.realy a 7 meter white has killed things??fuck off your kidding me arnt ya???i thought they where vegos and i could give em a pat when i see them out in the water.not giving in to idealists i just like whites always have.they remind me of my dog unpreditable and when need be violent.i do agree the world has gone soft that is one of the reasons i also think killing whites is silly.you need to feel safe when you go for a surf hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!that is gay.also an image is a hair cut and a dolphin tattoo and a stupid beard not shot gunning a protected species in tha head.thats wont look good on tv because it is fucked.
i'm obviously not going to name good ( quiet ) spots where access has changed .... the model of the " access for all and accom. for all " has changed many spots , wedge a famous one a stones throw from Perth , west of Exmouth another .... But the real good stuff has and will change more if these type of protests get strength .... look at what happened to Coral Bay ....
the only problem with this avenue of protection land / coastal and animal , is that it doesn't stop and in the end we get the raw edge as it becomes a over policed ( nanny state ) just like the east ....
Hey Southy like your comments.
Anyway after a period of swell over the last few days at the point (well for perth anyway)
I am yet to meet anyone not in favour of the lines in or out of the water so you could say the Marg/Yals boardriders are for it I know the Trigg point board riders are for the lines
so in my little world I am wondering where this majority of people against the drum lines are?
Southey and 360
I would agree with you that the most vocal people (either side of the debate) should only be those that either step foot in the water or are very well educated in all things marine, but I don't agree that all board riders have such strong agreement with you. most blokes would agree that getting rid of killer sharks is a good thing when the argument is put that way to them, especially on the back of very recent attacks in WA and NSW that are still fresh in everyones memory. but the question id put to you is how many of that same crew were actively lobbying the government in favour of the culling program.....only a collection of vocal surfers who can shout loudly. the rest were happy to just go along with the plan but didn't care enough to stop surfing everyday. there's always vocals eitherside of the debate and then a whole bunch of people (the majority) that sit in the middle who's opinion can be shifted either way through well presented arguments. half the problem is that most people don't have the time nor energy to investigate and simply adopt the opinion of their immediate circle because that's where they source their information from. its the job of all of us to present the arguments (for and against) so that the government can make a balanced rule.
360 never said all board riders were in favour just the ones he's spoken to. From your previous comments you currently don't live here in WA right, you are not directly affected by what's going on so I need to ask why do you have so much to say on the matter?
its a forum and thats what its all about...relax. if you dont like what i say then just ignore me. no need to sweat about it.
Not sweating about it Markus and I am realxed, I just disagree with you...which is exactly what the forum is for right, people expressing their opinions.
Markus ,
You assume I'm in favour of it .... but its just that I'm not vehemently opposed to it .... what i don't enjoy is listening to people get all on their high horse and demand anything .... especially if they are not clued in on what it is ...
beleive you me I'm no expert , but i think I've spent enough time around the traps living in a culture where we are at the front line .... most of the time when i'm in remote sharky areas . ( I'm tending to pass myself off as a fisherman who surfs , its easier relating to people and it opens you up to far more information and stories that are related to this topic ) .... anyway i digress ....
the oceans for all , humans and animals alike . Its not some aquarium that we should look at but not enjoy , and some people have this concept arse about ....
mtown , I like whites too .... just would prefer to see them when I'm in a boat large enough to make it think I'm not food , or if you were to go with your dog analogy whihc i actually agree on .... old guys i know always said to me , if its your dog and it goes astray or loses it place in life ( goes rogue ) then its your responsibility to put it down .... and they weren't talking about a needle or C02 .
now this sounds harsh and has little to do with the " control measures " being implemented in WA ... but it is an insight to what happens in the real world , not just the fanciful mind of young tree huggers ...
PS i'm not that old .
There has now been a protest in Sth Africa (cape town) against the drum lines in WA.
It was bad enough east coasters having a protest against something which is not in their backyard, but South Africa........!!
unbelievable
read this mate. http://theconversation.com/how-to-prevent-shark-attacks-20890
" its getting out of hand " ..... lol
now Central America has struck a BLOW for the good guys ....
" http://elpeji.com/2014/01/20/shark-killed-by-tourist-bite-in-costa-rica-... "
Advocate culling sharks? Worth considering this piece: http://deborahbirdrose.com/2014/02/05/sharks-in-a-sea-of-death/
One of the author's sources was Wikipedia...enough said.
There was a open public forum in Margaret River thursday night to discuss the current and future shark cull/ drumline program in our area. Unexpectedly there was almost a complete no show from anybody on the pro cull side, not that it,s unusual for the green element to show up in numbers here in Margs but the lack of representation from the MR Boardriders club, Dave Mac. Keith Halnam , Tom Innes and the local surf related businesses that have been very vocal in the public and media domain talking for the south west surfing community was pretty piss weak, i guess when it really comes down to it perhaps they felt personal fear is not a very logical reason to call for the killing of protected species and any other animal unlucky enough to be passing thru? The plan still goes ahead, the drumlines will be moved from Perth at end summer to Margaret River just in time for autumn and the "supercomp" that the WA gov has thrown so much $ at this year with the flash new contest site that doubles as a carpark for us poor pesant locals when surfings elite arnt gracing us with their presece. I guess at least the pros will be safe ...or will they? bait the fuck out of the lineup to reduce shark attack? Surely someone can come up with a better idea than that? As for the Pro kill MR Boardriders- at least show some balls, you called for this program now face up for your actions.
What's your idea then mike?
What are you suggesting by
What else is going to take a huge chunk of meat on a freakin massive hook?
How may sharks have been killed or have died since the inception of drum lining off Perth and Geographe Bay...I count 2...with many more released and even some being tagged before being released, see https://twitter.com/SLSWA, hardly the slaughter the greenies and do gooders were saying was going to occur. Does anyone really believe that drum lining is a threat to the population of the three target species of sharks?
Sightings off Perth and the SW have reduced dramatically since mid-Jan. It will be interesting to see how many of the big boys are caught if they place drum lines from say Oct to Jan this year. That seems to be the period when there has been increased sightings of GWS's off our coast in previous years. Let's be honest, these are the sharks that we are talking about as they have been the reported culprit in the majority of incidents/fatalities over here.
Killing sharks just because they are there? Really ? I think putting baited lines near or in the area where people are surfing or sailing is stupid, it WILL attract sharks, 1km off a beach in Perth is 950m from where people are swimming or surfing, 1km off the beach in Prevelly is in the surf area even inside of the surf area at times, lose your board or rig and swim in over the baited drumlines, fuck quokka could there be a worse idea than that?
Seems to have worked for 50-60 years over east Mike. BTW as you say the sharks are already there, don't think they need any attracting. You still haven't provided an alternative mike just rubbished the one in place. No you couldn't get a worse idea than what you suggest, that just doesn't make sense. Give me a break if you think they will lay the drum lines inside the reef at Prevelly.
actually mate it doesn't "seem to work" you're wrong. Read this. Its right. And referenced. Smart people wrote it.
http://theconversation.com/how-to-prevent-shark-attacks-20890
Hope I am wrong quokka, i watched a massive fisheries boat moving in and out (GPS plotting) off the reefs between the boat ramp and redgate beach just prior to christmas , and right at the inception of them being laid up in Perth, coincidence? Sure surfers point is a fair way from that but guys use all those southern end reefs to surf, sail , tow and sup, while most swimmers are at the rivermouth or gnarabup very close to shore. As for another idea; why not everybody who is so hysterically scared of being eaten by sharks stays out of the water or moves to the east coast where 1960,s redneck practices can keep you all safe.
your suggestion mike make 2 much sense mike.hahahahahahahaha!
a bait targeting a big shark will attract it to it.
a big shark dosent live 1000meters off the coast.
it will come in from deeper water to find the bait or baits.
everyone who surfs the outer reefs in the area of baits will be in incresed risk thats not hype that is real.
carnt see how anyone could argue with that but im sure someone will.
would make more sense if you are trying to kill big sharks just go off shore and do it.
margs and yalls boardriders dident show.good work guys way to stand up for what you want.
one more thing MR boardriders yous surf real good but yous are still a bunch of kooks!!!HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!dident show fucking hell.??!?
Hey blokes, these animals have been in the oceans for a very long time. Much longer than we have been around. I am 65 years old and have swam, surfed, sailed around the oceans and seas all my life. If you people even think that you have a special privilege that overrides the natural ways of nature, you need to be re-educated. Why must we be the creature that destroys all the others so that we can AMUSE OURSELVES TO DEATH1
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/attack-survivor-greg-...
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/21392570/penalty-warning-for-shark-to...
I watched the shark fisherman lay his drum line yesterday in Gracetown, the line stretches from big rock across the bay to round the corner from north point, it would be 1km out from the swimming beach in the middle of the bay, it is 200m off the back of north point, same for centres and a little farther but no more than 400m from south point. He laid his line, checked it after a couple hrs then headed back up the coast . The line has been left in place for anybody who wants to look. There was nobody swimming anywhere in Gracetown yesterday but surfers were out at south point and huzza all day and a couple surfers at north point. No warning signs or even a notice up , the surfers just kept paddling out.
Great going Margs Boardriders, why not have a paddle out or comp at north point today to show us how safe you have made it thanks to your campaign to have the baits laid. Your silence is deafening - morons.
Trying to upload pic but no can sorry.
Tonights 6pm news...14 drum lines set around Gracetown coast with more to go in at Moses Rock.
Still plenty of takers at Southpoint, Huzzers & Northpoint. Couldn't hear what the crew had to say that were interviewed, volume was down on the mess TVs but they didn't look to be overly impressed.
Whatever the approach someone's going to not like it so there is no hope of reaching agreement on this topic. Unless a referendum is undertaken then we will not ever really know how many people are in favour and how many are against...we only usually hear from people that feel strongly about it either way so the percentages are skewed. A decision has been made so let's see how it goes and let time be the judge.
Mike from what you are saying then I agree these seem too close to shore and surfing spots...seeing the lines are going in no matter what, some logic needs to be used with regard to the "1km" from shore.
I totally support the government on this one. I have surfed for over thirty years all over australia. wa clearly has a problem thats been getting worse. The reasons for increased shark attacks could be many . It will take time to esblish why this is so. The WA goverment needed to stop the death of people. Sorry sharks dont come before people . Its that simple.
So, Ashfab, if people were using an African jungle as a recreation area to go, let's say jogging, and a black rhino.... Oh hang on.... they've all been killed, let's say a lion or a silverback gorilla* or a white rhino attacked and killed one of these joggers, you would fully support the indiscriminate killing of all the gorillas* in the area? No, I doubt it. You'd be horrified... You'd wonder why people are jogging through an environment known for its predators. But these people say it's "fun". They say they get a "rush" from it. It brings them "closer to nature" and it "keeps them fit"..... If you enter the environment of an alpha predator, you do so at your own risk. Just because Australians do not have a land based alpha predator to fear does not mean we can be blase about oceanic alpha predators. "Enter at own risk".....
I'm tired of the lines "it's the shark's domain" and "enter at own risk". Humans have been using the oceans for thousands of years. It's clear we are generally only talking (in a surfing sense) about being safe no more than 200m from shore...someone try and convince me of a reason why big sharks need to come that close to shore...and don't tell me it's because it's their domain, they have the whole ocean to swim in?
" Humans have been using the oceans for thousands of years", writes, Quokka. Yeah, and sharks have been using the ocean for millions of years. You then write "someone try and convince me of a reason why big sharks need to come that close to shore". Well, you are certainly no David Attenborough, are you, Quokka? The answer? Ummm, maybe because SEALS, yes, the major prey of the Great White NEST ON THE SHORE..... Turtles - the major prey of the Tiger shark NEST ON THE SHORE. THE SHARKS FOLLOW THEM IN AND PREY ON THE WEAK.... It's called NATURE, Quokka.... That's how it has been long before anyone anyone ever "hanged five". It's pointless trying to convince the uneducated........
Glad someone answered Quokka because his was one of the most profoundly dumb posts I've ever read. I would'nt have been so patient.
Thanks, "spleeno" ;)
I often think people like sheepdog and mikehunt must be taking the piss - but then again perhaps they really do believe the crap they are spruiking. Let's see how they react when one of their best friends or family is eaten by a cuddly pointer in WA.
How do families of shark attack victims react? If you take the time to read most families comments after the initial shock of losing a loved one to shark attack, they are the first to comment "don't hunt the shark" and/or "that's not what *insert name of victim* would want".
Myself, I've been on the beach futiley assisting with 1st aid while a bloke bled out and had another mate come through with the slimmest of chances after being attacked. I've had a few close call myself, nothing like a 4-5m sub eyeballing you from directly beneath. Whilst I admit to having a couple of days hesitation of re-entering the surf, not once was my mindset changed to the bloody and pointless stance of culling.
It all comes down to fear, and and my take is people who are fearful of their own mortality (generally conservative in outlook) are the ones most eager to back extreme measures like culling. Those people who are at peace with their own mortality (generally progressive in outlook) are less inclined to control nature and the animals / systems therein.
Lets face it, there is only one driving reason behind the cull, of which Minister for Environment Mike Hunt made it plain for all to see in his exemption letter to the WA govt.
"A loss of confidence in water-based activities impacts on tourism and other leisure-based businesses impacting on the Australian economy, making this impact a matter of national significant."
Cold, hard cash flow.
I must say I was dissapointed with the anti cull protestors hypocrosy when that 12 yr old lad was taken by a croc in the Territory. First thing to happen was the killing of the two biggest crocs to fall within the search parties sights. On being cut open and no remains being found, the hunt began again in earnest for the likely suspect, yet not a whisper from the vocal crowds in WA or elseware.
Are these baits being laid up and down the whole WA coast ?
Or just around the areas where the fatal attacks have occurred?
Word has it a 6 m Great White was caught off the drumline set off the back of cobblestones (backside Gracetown) over the long weekend. It took over an hr for the fisherman to kill it before taking body out to sea to dump it. Shark must have been 50yrsold+ It may have been a danger or may have been hunting seals/ sea lions which are all over that point or it may have been passing thru until it was attracted in by the baited lines . Seems a sad waste to me, killing a protected species particularly an old breeder/survivor like that . If I post a pic of someone sitting on a dead lion carcass they just shot it would get mega hate but this is ok?
No public statement so far. Hope you shark haters out there, WA gov and MRBR feel more protected . You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Wonder who is getting the trophy from each GW kill?
Since it now legal to kill em in WA, is it legal to take the jaws and sell em in WA? At the least, it's replacing some of that lost cash from tourism Hunt and Barnett are so worried about.
Wow, heard nothing of this. Very sad, and would of definitely been one of the older ones going around. Any more on this?
I've also had this " confirmed " to me from a third party .... ( 6M white caught , off old cobbles ) ,
considering this is my " sources " rec. crayfishing site of choice , i would say its true ....
Its a pretty hard core spot to snorkel / loop at , rarely goes flat . last time i was there he dragged me out there with people surfing over the top of us ... Deep drop off nearby .
The most annoying thing ( and this stinks of Typical WA Authorities behaviour ) , where is the data recording and or experts actually doing study of said animal if it was caught . Instaed we run on heresay and then they just dump it out to sea ..... Where's the net benefit to study these old rogues ?
Here's a different viewpoint.
http://phys.org/news/2014-03-ninety-five-cent-world-fish-mesopelagic.html
@upsadaisy
Yeah. Nah. Fuckin' scientists are at it again. Lyin bastards. Next thing you know they'll be tellin us the earth is round and that we somehow EVOLVED. Pffffffft.
@ the stray gimp, so you are saying all the other 'scientists' and 'science' are and is wrong? Again.
Yep. That's what I'm sayin. Exactly. Sure it is. Spot on.
I see your cognitive capacity is still operating at <10% of the rest of humanity's.
'I see your cognitive capacity is still operating at <10% of the rest of humanity's.'
We need to see the studies for that to have any relevance.
But, whatever the figure, its always been, and still is way, way, way too much for you to handle. Except in this life I create for you as a swellnut.
Interesting stats released today from WA Fisheries:
172 Sharks were caught on the drum lines in 3 months (that's almost two a day), mostly Tigers and 50 were killed.
Not one Great White was captured.
Are there then less Whites out there than were first thought, not even 1/172 is amazing!
Or were the baited drum lines hooked up in a way that only Tigers and Makos were attracted?
Here's the report: http://swllnt.com/1ooy5Vo
Now that is interesting...I have a first hand witness report of a giant 6m white caught off the back of Cobblestones about 8 weeks ago. My mate sat and watched them take over 2 hours to brutally kill it and then drag it out to sea. This all took place less than a kilometer offshore and he watched it through a set of high power binoculers.
I have no reason to doubt my mate as he has spent many years working on the ocean in various capacities and knows his fish.
Very interesting indeed, it's hard to beleive they didn't catch at least one White with all the other Tigers they caught. So now the drum lines are gone it'll be interesting to see if anything changes re sightings or encounters.
I did hear of another smaller white being caught off Gracetown early on in the drum lining program but I can't verify that with anybody I know. When I say smaller it was said to be 4m.
I have no idea why there would be denials of whites being caught as I'd reckon it would be a PR justification of the culling stance taken.
The whites are definately out there, here's an encounter with a 4m white from last week off the Dawsville Cut. I used to live and surf waves 200m north of the cut for a few years and I saw plenty of sharks including Bull, Tigers and Whites.
I overlooked Avi Point so I would spend many hours sitting on my balcony watching that stretch of water. With the amount of sea life active around those parts I'm amazed no-one has been attacked yet...or it just goes to show how low the chances are of being attacked by a shark actaully is.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-03/shark-video-four-metre-great-white-circles-boat-dawesville-wa/5428262
Nothing tastier than a social placebo..... Yum.....
Placebo analgesia for the masses, tasty stuff alright.
Quite disturbing but new footage of what's going on off WA. Very sad:
Thanks Craig, kinda lost for words - between anger, dispair and dissapointment.
Now that the things have calmed down about the drum lines I thought it was time to make a comment on the issue.
I was president of Cowaramup Bay Boardriders at the time of most of the fatalities at Gracetown,the club is based in Gracetown. We have had insight into Yallingup Boardriders (40 kms away) Margaret River Boardriders (20 kms away) and they are welcome to their opinions.
My personal opinion when I was Club President and now is that something has to be done to fix the shark problem.Most of the surfers that spend their time in the water here are the local kids and these are the ones we must protect.Grommets have been in the water for every attack here and it's just a matter of time before we have one lost to a shark.The local grommets are out the before school and after school most days and my 13 year old kid had three dawnies by himself just days before the last attack.
It really is fashionable to protest against the drum lines here and I believe it is media driven.Professional protesters were all over the media and it seemed every dickhead got caught up in it making statements that only people ignorant of the issues could make.The Sea Shepherd spokesman told us that the drum lines would kill the apex predator and life on earth will finish(I really heard him say this).
What I didn't hear in the protests is about the millions of sharks killed for fins each year and why are they not jumping up and down about this industry.Perhaps it is not a good latte sipping conversation to be had at the local cafe or it hasn't been mentioned at Summer Bay.
Our premier Col Burnett is a DOODLE and I hate agreeing with him but something has to be done here in Gracetown to stop one of our kids being killed by a shark.If we get the chance to get rid of some of the big Whites that hang around here it would I'm sure help our situation.
I am a financial supporter of the anti shark finning group but someone will probably get eaten this september/october if nothing is done and can only hope it's not a family member or friend.
ps
You may say that the kids should do something other than surf?
There is nothing else to do in our little community of around 60 people.
Kashmir, i also hope that a family or friend of yours does not get attacked by a shark. Have you taken the responsibility of encouraging them to stay out of the water because you feel such risks are high?
I guess it comes to how one perceives Manifest Destiny.
With what the east coast does (drum lines, nets etc), I'd assume any form of criticism coming from the east directed at the west would be taken as pure hypocrisy.... Rallying and setting an example re' one's "local" would go a long way....
I agree on the hypocrisy from the east, not easy being legitimate if ya can't be consistant.
Then there was the case of the 12yr old boy taken in NT by the croc when the WA cull protests were at fever point. First thing that happens is two large crocs in the vicinity of the attack are killed and gutted. When no human remains were found, the search went out to find more crocs and kill them. Not a peep of protest was heard from the anti shark cull brigade was to be heard.
Still not a reason to kill sharks. Produce a legit argument.
hey kashmir you where the president of the boardriders?wow must make you special then and your opinion realy matter...not.
mabe teach your kids that where you live is the habitat for large whites.
mabey teach them not to go for dawn surfs by them selfs in an area where there have been shark attacks.
that my help the survival rate of the grommets.
crocs are not endangered they breed crocs to turn into shoes and hand bags.
'''for goodness sakes would someone please think of the children!!!!!!??!!!???!!'''hahaha classic.
My comment doesn't relate to whether an animal is protected or not, it's relates to the the public's "kill it" knee jerk reaction, or lack thereof when said animal takes a human life.
Endangered or not, the croc exists in it's habitat just the same as a GW does and education is the key if you are going to enter their environment.
why would the protesters talk about the sharkfin industy when you are tryin to stop drum lining targeting a endagered species put in place by the goverment?
because it has nothing to do with the govements drumlines.
very simple realy.
yes education is the key mr feet my point exatctly.or you could get your self a gun and fire it wildly into the nearest ocean to make you feel safer hopfully hitting a large human hungry shark.
yes education is the key mr feet my point exatctly.or you could get your self a gun and fire it wildly into the nearest ocean to make you feel safer hopfully hitting a large human hungry shark.
Hi Kashmir,
I always find the "is it going to take a childs life" argument interesting (yes I have children that surf down south). Are you on the local down south committee for "Road Trauma Victims" calling for action against road deaths in the area or is that not a latte sipping cafe conversation as you put it??. Have a look at the road death stats for the area in comparison, I haven't, but I would bet they far outway the shark fatalities. However people seem to forget about facts when the jaws music starts playing out (thanks to the media) . The reality for all of us that choose to enter the ocean anywhere but in this case Gracetown is that there will never ever be any guarentees about safety from shark attack let alone drowning whilst were surfing etc. No matter how many great whites are killed near & around Gractown it will not neccesarily alter the risk. It may do but it may not.
I was so dissapointed to hear local legend Dave Mac say that people surfing in that area had a "RIGHT" to be safe from shark attacks. I had no idea that a bloke that has spent the majority of his life in the ocean could have had such an arrogant competely unrealistic attitude.
Kashmir, If they do kill any great whites in that area & there is subsequently another fatility by shark attack, then what?? Just keep hunting & killing but never knowing or learning anything about these creatures habits?? The only reason the fisheries were able to declare that that 5m plus great white was around Middleton beach area in Albany recently was due to the fact that it was tagged.
Once these sharks can be tagged, we can then at least get some idea of when they are in the area or have been in the areas of concern. Then if it is deemed that a certain great white has been "hanging around" as you put it, then an informed decision can be made about attempting to kill it.
No-one wants to see anyone get taken by a shark anywhere, but sensible, measurable action must be taken if we want to learn to live with this shark attack reality. Just killing sharks is too simplistic.
wow kashmir < the club president of a boardriders club in a town of 60 people with nothing to do but surf< lucky you, sounds like your the guy we need to talk to, how bout we spend another $5000 a day for the rest of time to catch and kill sharks that may or may not eat you future club champions. just listen to your own argument, same goes for macca, just being an ex pro surfer = expert opinion ? Unlikely. Why the conflicting stories and figures on catch? More about tourism and business losses, nothing more important to WA gov than $
I thought back in the day when Dave Mac was on the tour he was a self proclaimed 'Christian Surfer'?
Doesn't a Great White count as one of Gods creatures?
rabbits68, i just read your comment about dave mac. ''could have such a arrogant unrealestic attitude" hahahahahah!
you obviously havent spent much time in the south as this sort of attitude is the norm for alot of people.
not everyone but alot.
Can anyone answer me the question, how are the numbers of GWS's to be controlled if not by us?
As far as I'm aware they have no natural predators. There will be a time when their numbers get to a level that results in the population needing to be managed. Are we at that stage now?
I would also like to ask the people against the mitigation ("cull") practices how they propose a situation where there are too many GWS's should be handled?
The fella who witnessed his mate attacked in SA the other day reckons they are no longer endangered and I agree, there are a lot of them out there, maybe too many.
Quokka, I think Killer Whales are partial to a Pointer fillet. Go Orca!!!
When whaling ceased the boffins were calling a solid 100 years before their numbers recovered. A similar scenario to Uplifts oft cited 4 minute mile debacle of a previous century ?
For sure . Scientists, for all their book learn in' ( legends they are ) don't get the hours on the water required to form the required bedrock of evidence . Want the details of a species biology ? Can't go past a scientist. For all other facts regarding an unpredictable , rarely seen stealth hunter ? Give it time and the scientists will nail every fact.
Till then , the best we've got is the fishermen - cray , fin, and ab , surfers, divers and other regular ocean users. Anecdotal evidence maybe.
Eyewitness accounts from some respected, measured minds in my opinion and the consensus amongst those in the know is that there is a lot more Pointers in recent years.
Are Pointers vulnerable ? Of course.
They are an apex predator, which by definition means their numbers are constrained .
Constrained by the available food sources , the amount of prey available.
In WA , there has been an exponential increase in the prey available to the White Shark in recent years. Whale numbers are through the roof, the NZ fur seal population has also exploded in numbers and re-established colonies throughout the SW where none have existed for 150 years.
The seasonal restrictions on key demersal finfish species has already seen a recovery of these fisheries.
I believe that Whites in Australia are seeing a recruitment of numbers unforeseen by science.
These Pointers are attracted to nearshore waters by their prey species and there is no longer any true deterrent to this take up of territory.
Some of these fish are predating man, maybe not habitually but obviously opportunistically . To suggest that most attacks on man are a case of mistaken identity is ignorant. This is an animal that has stalked prey since the day it was born and can differentiate one part blood in a million parts water - their sense of smell and detection of movement and impulse being so laudably attuned I find this hard to believe especially as these senses are not diminished in low visibility environments.
Previously Pointers were predated by man. This is no longer the case and the sharks have lost their fear of man. Fear of a certain species being a learnt response in every part of the animal kingdom. This fear was previously communicated between Pointers in the same way as sources of food and breeding locations was communicated.
To assume that these fish don't have the capacity or intellect for this level of communication is to underestimate them and do them a grave disservice in my opinion.
The loss of fear through lack of predation by man has been reinforced by the occasional interaction with man in the conducive environments of situations such as cage diving and the theft of catch from fishing boats where sharks are associating humans with food with impunity.
So What I'm saying is this - there is more sharks, more emboldened sharks coming closer to shore in numbers not seen for maybe a half century. There is a lot more ocean users than there was a half century ago.
Personally I believe a solution lies in reinstalling a fear of man in these fish.
Not the wholesale destruction or even a measured reduction in the species.
How this can be achieved ? I'm not sure. Catch and release ? Bring a few to the boat, with a bit of pain and let them see a man is responsible to establish the link between the two . Although the sharks already associate man with boats - a couple of WAs fatalities occurred with divers descending the anchor chain within minutes of the boats pulling up. Add a deterrent to sharks interacting with boats.
Now, this will make you laugh but....find a congregation of Pointers, maybe a whale carcass, get some hard hitting , fearless fuckers in there with power heads ( smokey s ) or some form of pain inflicting device and inflict some serious, unforgettable pain on them.
Cruel ? Definitely . Effective ? I'm saying yes.
Fear learnt.
There will always be attacks, the sharks as individuals think for themselves and no amount of educating is going to prevent a hungry, opportunistic , utterly dominant 5m adult female from taking exactly what it wants from the food chain ,particularly when all it can sense is fear from the hapless surfer it is eyeballing from below in 15 feet of crystal clear water ( RIP Mr Linden ). But if we can educate the majority of sharks that the avoidance of man is beneficial to their existence then everyone is a winner.
For the hopeless romantics out there that believe the ocean is the sharks domain and that no land based mammal has a right to dictate terms to them , that they are the apex predator the world cant do without and that " nature" leads some fragile existence that hinges on the Earth remaining in a state of statis with all elements remaining proportionately equal... I say go peruse even the most basic reference of world history , actually engage with the planet and open your eyes.
Xenophobia seems to be the derogatory buzzword more associated with the interactions of man v man these days.
It means fear of change. Any change. Unfortunately for those that wish to wrap the world in cotton wool and preserve the status quo ....I hereby accuse you of xenophobia ( the horror!) . Humans are a portion of the symbiotic equation that is the world , we are not separate from ,or distinguished from the environment in any way. Every action we take is sanctioned by the living, dormant and mineral Earth because we ARE that Earth, as much as any Rosebush,termite or gold deposit. The world is not a museum , it is in a constant state of flux, a required state of flux that fuels the engines of evolution that is leading us to our ultimate destination of...Fuck, I don't know, go ask your God.
Gentlemen, set your weapons for stun and let's learn us some sharks.
Blowin. Did I just read you complaining about crowds on another thread? Come again? Anyway I must admit I am impressed at your excellent twisting of ecological logic to suit your argument. Well played sir. Let me question just one of your points if I may - In case you haven't noticed there is 7+billion of us. What symbiosis do you speak of?
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Good idea about pissing whites off by hurting them, best idea I've read so far.
As for the rest of you posts blowin my reaction after observing them was laugh out loud.
What a load of hippy shit. Mabey you should lay off the crack pipe.
Just my 2 cents.
ooucch....!
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" I believe even time is a part of the greater tapestry that is us, the planet and everything we have ever dreamed of"
...wtf was that. I had to read it twice and still don't understand it.
Blowin, were you actually drunk, or are you taking the piss, or do you actually believe what you wrote. BTW I wouldn't mind some of whatever your smoking. :)
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Fuck me that's off topic.
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