Slater's arc
After he bombed out early at Snapper and Bells, Kelly Slater fell prey to the critics about his performance and his choice of boards. Lately Slater has been championing the banana boards made famous by Greg Webber back in the early-90s. Back then, Shane Herring rode the bananas to much acclaim but the design copped a lot of flak when he faltered and one can sense a similar dynamic arising.
Another similar dynamic is the amount of guff written about the banana design: How they're not all 'round boards. How they don't work in fat waves. True and true, but that's not a design flaw. Banana boards are to junky waves what a fish is to ten foot Pipe. A perfect mismatch, dont judge them in junk.
The latest manouevre du jour is the 'cutdown carve', a term I use for want of a better name. In essence it's an extension of the carve beyond the usual top turn slice, keeping the rail in and gouging, and then bringing it down toward the bottom turn. Jordy Smith has been doing them for a while, watch the wave from Bells last year when he needed a ten against Julian Wilson to progress.
The most obvious aspect is the power but what makes it critical is how little time the board sits flat in between turns. There's no waiting for the section, and no, god forbid, double pump bottom turn, Jordy's board moves sharply from rail to rail and he's carving so much during the 'cut down' he even faded back to the whitewash.
In a 2014 interview with Swellnet, Kelly Slater said there's still "a surprisingly large amount of area that's not being used in the wave." The "unused area" is, I believe, the close-to-the-curl mid-face transition where the wave has much of its curve, between where a top turn usually ends and a bottom turn begins. Sure, surfers are traversing that area but they're not often carving while passing by - the above video notwithstanding. Slater said he got the insight about the untapped wave estate from watching old footage of Herring. What was he seeing? Carves up and down the face...or at least the potential for it.
In the aforementioned interview with Slater I asked what aspect of his surfing he hoped the bananas would improve: "Carving in the pocket and fitting into the curve. Basically, finding new approaches throughout the wave."
As mentioned, Jordy's been taking this new approach, doing cut down carves - or whatever they end up being called - for a while. A few other surfers are slowly introducing them into their repertoire, keeping the board on edge that bit longer through a turn and cutting back down the face. This kind of surfing keeps the surfer closer to the curl - it has to, there's less chance for the surfer to run out onto the face - while the extended carves keeps the board on rail, something the banana boards likes. It having long continuous curves itself.
My prediction is the cut down carve will become popular amongst pro surfers much like the layback snap did five or so years ago. It'll be the new move. And just like the layback snap it's not actually new but just a new approach to an old move.
Kelly Slater has already alluded to the fact he'll ride the Slater Design Banana model in Fiji and Tahiti. We should hope those events get great waves, not just for the spectacle but also for the real time experimentation that'll go down.
Yet even if the actual Slater Design Banana model doesn't boom the ideas contained within it, especially the extra curve, will bleed off into the boards of other pro surfers. Everything is already arcing in that direction.
Comments
Mabey for the pros Stu, but most punters just want to gas down the line and get a cover up or two, and if we're lucky finish with a buried rail.
Maybe the best ever post I've read on here :-)
I reckon Micks the fastest and best surfer in the world now and he rides a good old, all round , Aussie designed and made stick. Leave the Taiwanese boards for the Taiwanese surfers.
I thought they were Thai, not Taiwanese. But anyway...
Could be Thai , no surfers there either just cheap crappy factories, actually Taiwan gets good waves.
There are local surfers in both countries.
Huge call Stu, based on Jordy who rides pretty conventional boards without that much curve.
Design could just as easily move in the direction of say the Dam Tomo designed Sci-phi's or other modern planing hulls , which are short, parallel railed and without excess rocker curve.
Not sure Slater is really at a stage of his career where he is going to influence design all that much....if he falls early at Fiji or even Tahiti it's far more likely the banana board will sink without a trace and for the second time in it's history become nothing more than a design footnote.
Huge call? Yeah, nah...the trend has slowly been going the way of lengthened carves and pocket play, and 'cause they take the surfer into a curvier part of the wave then more curves on the board are required. That's not much of a leap. Whether Slater gets credited with the move towards this change is up in the air.
Lengthened carves and pocket play are countervailing elements.
Are you seeing extra curve in pros boards?
I haven't. Certainly not in ADS's or Medina's or Parko's or Jordy's or Fannings or Wilkos etc etc.
Slater is out on a limb here, whether anyone follows is pure speculation, based on his performances so far, it's doubtful.
It's just as likely that pros could go shorter, ala Stu Kenedy, as longer and curvier.
But those elements have negatives as well as positives.
Not convinced by your argument at all Stu......you need some more evidence than a Jordy Smith cut down on a conventional board.
Without the hyped commentary I would have scored Jordy's wave at 8.5 or something. One nice carve, the rest routine pro surfng on a small wave. Seeing 10s dropped for that just seems wrong.
Now a couple of Shane Herring turns had more wow than anything Jordy did on that wave.
Got to agree, still haven't seen anyone doing the top turn carves that Herro was doing in that era.
tom Curren was pretty good.
cannot for the life of me work out all the hype about surfing more in the pocket , exploring different parts of the wave, by going slower?
of course the boards work, but only in steep bowled out perfect waves. Which is why he's copping so much heat for riding them on the Australian leg of fat walled point breaks.
Did he ride one during the volcom pipe pro? I think he did from memory.
looked like he did.
"Yet even if the actual Slater Design Banana model doesn't boom the ideas contained within it, especially the extra curve, will bleed off into the boards of other pro surfers. Everything is already arcing in that direction. "
As the Banana Board claims to have extra curve , how much does a GG BB have compared to a CI Proton for example?
It is pretty obvious that the design is a slower version of what is currently being ridden , does this lack of speed make the ," cut down carve " , easier , does this mean a check turn?
Oh lordy! Don't call them a check turn!
Check turn to mid-face carve to high-line wrap with a rock'n'roll floater and he's out of there:)
Did he get the score Pottz?
Sorry joey, I was ah yeah back in my day we had to paddle back, wait um yeah look just a maan turn, driiving through the carve onto the open and milking it, yep that's a score joey, these athletes...maybe in the excellent range.
Happy 23rd birthday Benski.
Hilarious!
Thanks mate. The voice of Joe turpel in my head is possibly the best birthday present I could hope for! Brilliantly done man.
Hilarious Zen! Did you have to listen or is it etched in your brain!
oh yeah , check turn or a " Claytons turn" , all we have is really is Kelly going slower and his turns are so soft , to come up with a " cut down carve" which to me means a lesser Carve ,hmmm!
Beat me to it Zen.
Just call it a high line wrap, regardless of what it means.
I remember Hynd saying that Herro possessed the best figure eight cutback he'd seen pre nana and it was lost forever because of Webber's influence.
I think the boards are slow - maybe thats just me - but speed is the issue. Fanning has speed, and that always helps. How many times do we all want more speed ?
I reckon you hit the nail on the head...I reckon yeah the probably worked in big bowls like Pipe and Chopes...will be very ineteresting to see how they go at Cloudbreak which is a bit more down the line
"Nat Si Young from Santa Cruz packs the barrel, tags the wall and pulls off out on the open face, I really love the way this kid surfs Pottz, former Rookie of the Year back on his first year on tour, did ya know he was from Santa Cruz former world champ and one of the most winningest surfers ever Martin "Pottz" Potter?"
"Ya know Joe, I mean Nat was surfing at 70% then, I mean that's such great surfing, ya know I really think the judges will reward him with a score in the excellent range ya know"
If the Slater Designs banana boards are all about the curve and the length of the rail, why break up the rail line in the back third of the board in front of the fins?
http://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2016/04/18/greg-webber-ta...
good point AP , yeah why put a wing above the fins , unless you are trying to loosen up the board , which it already looks so loose, to the point wher there is no "push back from the board , just very pivoty and slow!
Thanks Sharkman - it's puzzling to me. I just watched the vid of Greg talking about the board and there was no mention of the hip and why the board has it. In fact, he talks about the curve of the rail being continuous therefore more forgiving, but how can it be continuous if there is a hip breaking it up? Am I missing something here? I think the reason could be that Average Joe probably can't hold a rail like Kelly, therefore for the off-the-shelf model the Greg is promoting needs a hip in it to break up the rail line for Joe to be able to turn it.
http://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2016/04/18/greg-webber-ta...
Does Kelly ride custom bananas or just the off the shelf ones? And if he does, do Kelly's custom bananas have the hip in them?
Or is it that Greg thinks that the hip complements the big concave and continuous curve resulting in a more responsive board? Would love to hear people's thoughts.
In my opinion there's no question that Kelly's surfing at Cloudbreak on the "off-the-shelf" board in the vid is phenomenal - threading deep tubes, turning tightly and vertically in the pocket and fitting in more turns in the curve of the wave without the down time in between that Stu talks about in this article. I love that Kelly is searching for increased performance from his boards. Even if it is only for himself, I think we all benefit (even if it is simply for the footage of Kelly tearing apart perfect Cloudbreak!).
The boards would be customs like any pro all the FW team riders ride customs, most of the the FW team riders boards are made in Aus and USA, Kelly got three more boards made and glassed in Oz just after Snapper some by Tomo and at least one by Simon Anderson.
So there not really off the shelf, actually anyone can get a FW custom but you can only tinker with elements of the design, like length, width, thickness etc
the Spartan rides stock FW's. Yeah Kelly had 3 Simons , at Bells and Margs made in OZ . My understanding is Kelly just orders bds and hopes they are good , have seen no sign of him actually going and working through a design in the shaping room , with the shaper. Kelly's approach is very hit and miss , especially with GW as he is more a sculptor , and not a technical designer , shapes by feel , which in the competitive arena ,is very hit and miss , as we have sen with Kelly the last year or so!
do an article on Joe Turtle's commentary ruining live sport. more nonsense and verbal diarrhoea than bruce mcavaney commentating rioli falling over.
Leave poor Joe alone, we might even make him an honorary Aussie for continuing our fine tradition of incoherent, but strangely loveable, sports commentary. I'm thinking Darrell Eastlake, Frank Hyde, Ron Casey and a dozen others.
BTW how the fuck is it called a drop-wallet? If I drop my wallet, I don't pick it up by pretending I'm going under a limbo stick.
Other annoying vernacular:
'Packs a Pit' - Even more annoying with his thick twang
'Doggie door'
'Almondy' - Also accentuated by the accent
'Just getting his feet in the wax'
And possibly the most irritating, and its use is on the rise with each event -
'Connecting the dots'
But connecting the dots is so true. Don't surf well, just connect the dots. But don't surf too conservatively because then you'll lose like Julian.
If Joe were a kitchen appliance he would be a wafflemaster500 and we need one of those so yep leave Joe alone he does a good job.
Showing your northern bias there BB. What about the indomitable Dennis Comettii who is retiring. We need someone as sharp and as funny as he is. Poor Joe just rambles on and on and on and on and on. He could talk in an iron lung. Seems a nice guy however someone needs to tap him on the shoulder and tell him to take a breath every now and again.
Surprised Andy Irons hasn't been mentioned. His 'cut down carves' haven't been matched - the P-Pass session in Still Filthy, and at Keramas too.
Julian Wilson's last score in the Margs final had a down carve, and hell: you could argue Seabass won the comp based on his down carves.
I think the winds are blowing that way
The industry has been selling us shorter, flatter, faster for a while now (which I like btw). But I think the industry needs to suck us into buying super-rockered boards again which we will stupidly start to try and use in slop. Then in another five years or so, they'll reinvent the the shorter, flatter faster feel again and we'll be refreshing our quiver again.
See what is going on here?
Anyway, I've started making my own boards (almost finished the first which is a CI Sampler-ish rip off) to escape the cycle. Hopefully it rides well. Came out looking like it should but we will see.
I reckon your right here. You only have to see the limited number of parameters that can be changed - hence you get a cyclic design pattern emerging.
Slater could make a palling fence post look like a great design.
That's the way to go - make your own. You will learn more about your own surfing than design options.
Go for it.
I think your correct for the majority of the "off the shelf" churn and burn boards. But if you look at real designer/shapers (say MC and Corey Graham) then there's heaps going on and many different shapes, bottom curves and designs to choose from. For all types of waves for all types of surfers. Maybe the pro's are stuck with boards for events and don't have time to experiment. At least kelly is doing that i suppose ?
I'm swimming against the hate-filled tide here...I think, based on the two Margaret River finalists' performances, that Stu may be onto something...the commentators were constantly raving about J Dubs' ability to milk a little extra rail time (pizazz I think Turdpel would say) out of his turns - with the judges rewarding it - and also Seabass' massive winning rail-grab turn that saw him go effectively on rail through the whole middle of the wave and straight back into a bottom turn.
Can someone send me to Cloudbreak to try one out and report back please? :P
@jimbrown wrote: Julian Wilson's last score in the Margs final had a down carve, and hell: you could argue Seabass won the comp based on his down carves.
Replying in stereo
Never been a fan of the banana board but I see a lot of small wave boards that are too flat into the tail. They drive down the line but are much more difficult to get anything like vertical off the bottom. Most could do with a little more length and more rocker.
I agree with most of Stu thoughts.
It's just natural that things that things must change and we cant go shorter and wider, so boards will go longer and narrower again, but when you do go longer you need more rocker to allow your board to turn easier and fit in the curve of the wave.
So where does the grab rail turn fit in?
Im betting we will see more of those for a guaranteed 9, i guess in a sense it's a similar thing trying to hold the rail on edge for as long as possible.
I reckon we will see more of them everywhere.....for better or worse.
Years of reading the comments and I never cease to be amazed at how so many seem to be willing to see so much through the prism of a glass half empty.
Surely on some level it's inspirational that one of surfings leading lights is still clearly jazzed by the possibilities of design and it's impact on performance.
To those above doubting various aspects of the design I suggest that checking out the footage of slats riding stock dimensions banana in decent cloud break on one of swellnets ahem competitors may prompt some re thinking of the designs potential. Performance level seems pretty impressive to these eyes.
since shortboard revolution:
boards go wide and short into 1970 Bells, Rolf Aurness wins on Hawaiian semi gun and changes things
early 1970's - 7ft long, long rails, little tail area
late 70's - area moved back wide tails, twins, culminates in Thruster, originally short & wide tail
1980s - getting refined, slightly longer
1990s - boards go long, rockered, anorexic, no longer suit average surfer (undercurrent: retro and longboards)
2000's - continues, but by about 2005 massive era of experimentation hits mainstream: materials, logs, retro. Suddenly planing speed is accessible to most again.
2010's contemporary shortboards generally wider and flatter with sufficient volume for recreational surfer for first time in fricken ages. Its a bit of a high point for off the shelf performance imo, surely time to make surfing cruel and inaccessible again?
The beauty of the "down carve" is in the approach. Initiating a turn which utilises a large part of the rail while approaching the top of the wave at a near vertical angle as one would when attempting a reo or snap is extremely difficult. Try it next surf and you will see it's almost impossible.
Andy at Keramas in that section mentioned above is one of the best examples.
I love watching footage from 10 years or so ago (or longer like AI, Herring, Curren,Ross Wiiliams, Taylor K) before everyone started riding lower rockered boards with a shorter rail line. These boards were once regarded as grovellers or incorrectly: fishes.
It's like surfing has gone backwards since Andy passed. Now you have groms that can do air reverses but can't do a proper turn. They are even winning contests (and world titles!)
that down rail carve has been a go to manoeuvre for me since I did my back in 11' ...friends and locals always asking(well at least 3 times)...why not just go more vert and release outta that turn...ya ruined the best bit of the wave
Jordy's been doin it for a bit...bad back...ol baldys doin it...ageing...
is this the turn for injured surfers that are trying to swing the focus from backbreaking airs?
for reference, my petite and attempted airs, and down rail carves are not pro worthy
wooooo , you are on it , the cut down carve , is actually a slow pivot turn , and we are dealing with Kook Wisdom!
Check this link, Slater- January-Honolua Bay-Webber 5'10".
http://www.surfline.com/video/featured-clips/the-slater-situation-at-hon...
......but do yourself a favour and turn the sound off.
For what it's worth in June '94 I was riding a 7'6" Insight Banana shaped by Greg at G'land for the late arvo surf on the of the evening of the tsunami and did a turn on a six-foot wave which - as I kicked out alongside him - Dog Marsh referred to thus: "Nice cutdown Mont"
Back at the time - in the early 90s - we called them cutdowns.
Sharkman said:Quote:
'the Spartan rides stock FW's. Yeah Kelly had 3 Simons , at Bells and Margs made in OZ . My understanding is Kelly just orders bds and hopes they are good , have seen no sign of him actually going and working through a design in the shaping room , with the shaper. Kelly's approach is very hit and miss , especially with GW as he is more a sculptor , and not a technical designer , shapes by feel , which in the competitive arena ,is very hit and miss , as we have sen with Kelly the last year or so!'
Fantastic comment Sharkman, well sharked! I don't blame you for arcing up and hopping up and down! Look at the the dunder heads, the 'kooks, the bullshit artists that you are facing! I mean, look what this mindless lunatic reckons! The exact bloody opposite! And as you say Curren was pretty good too! These are the sort of idiotic kooks that you are forced to deal with relentlessly. Keep the chins up, keep fighting on, even though its a no win situation! Bloody Slater (and that kook Sea bass is cheating too)!
'MC went back to the shaping bay and ripped a 6’9” out of a blank, without really even looking at it. Later he realised it was asymmetrical, different rails, the whole nine yards. This was the board that Tom took to Bells Beach and Santa Cruz in February and March 1990 and won both events from the first trials round, basically smashing the opposition before they’d known he was back.'
'At a time when most designers were engaging in a measurement revolution – carefully noting each 1/16th of an inch off every half-inch of rail length, trying to do what the CAD cutter machines would soon be doing for them — Maurice shaped directly from gut feel and a kind of certainty formed from his own experiences as a surfer.'
Speaking of 6'9"'s Tom Curren and Andy Irons............thats a whole genre of surfing that scarcely exists anymore: pro level surfers riding bigger boards in performance biggish surf.
AI on a 7'0" Arakawa channel bottom at Cloudbreak still remains the benchmark for backhand power surfing in my eyes. Huge cut-downs, down carves or whatever you want to call them. I don't think extra curve is the vital ingredient, more ultra-skilled surfers being able to really utilise that rail length.
Same with Tom Curren at J-bay...his surfing in the Search vids and Searching for Tom Curren on bigger boards was majestic.
You just don;t see that now. Pros will ride 6'3"'s or 6'5"'s in that sized surf. And sure it is closer to the pocket but for majestic top to bottom power carving it looks under-cooked compared to the standard set by Curren and AI.
Totally agree FR.
Small boards on big walls just don't cut it for me.
Jordy is the only one not completely falling for going as short as possible all the time.
Yes totally agree with FR(amazingly) and you doggy. I think maybe the pro's are to afraid of trying something new, different or out of the ordinary, as they are all about getting through heats (it is their lively hood) BL won the old blokes heat on an MC at bells this year, but maybe that was the surfer? (he has been surfing them for years) If you were ever going to try something new, an MC at Bells would be the place to do it !! (logically as he knows the place toooo well.) A little more length especially at JBay and bells would seem to be logical.
I remember reading Kelly saying something about there being two types of surfing.
One involves using g-forces and gravity. Leaning and carving. The other is more about unweighting and staying over your board. A different centre of gravity and only a handful of surfers ( including Kelly of course) have EVER been able to master combining both.
Jordy is one of em too. It would be amazing to see him work on his big wave surfing though, I've never seen footage of him on anything over 5ft!?
We called them cutdowns back in the early 90s.
And I guess that's what they are, however what I see happening is not so much a new move but an old move - the cutdown - done with an increased degree of difficulty. It's done tighter to the curl, faster, and with the rail held in for longer. A super cutdown? I'm sure our American friends would be fond of that.
Disagree to some extent Stu. I think freeride is on to a big factor with longer boards. He just beat me to it! I'd been wondering what it was about these moves on shortboards that left me a little cold and it's length. Less rail shortens the arc which I think makes it easier and less spectacular. The longer rail keeps the drive going all the way to the bottom of the wave and requires the centre of gravity to be further out from the rail to act as the pivot for the longer arc. As far as degree of difficulty goes it is much easier on a thruster. Not many could do it on a single fin and even fewer could do it regularly.
But the point that most people are missing is that no-one is really doing them at all now. In the comments there's been references to Curren, AI et al, but all along I've been talking about the as-yet unused part of the wave face tighter to the curl than what those guys travelled. Same move, done tighter.
And to do it surfers will need a board with more curve.
Fair enough, I am thinking more of a carve that cuts through the curve in the wave face rather than a rail turn that follows it...which is I think what you are talking about. Now if you want to put extra curve to good use how about the fly paper inside the barrel? It can be done, probably easier backhand, keep some horizontal momentum out of the bottom turn, fly paper off the roof and ride down onto the face. Yeh it hurts if you don't make it but I have an eye witness to nearly pulling one off at 7th Hole on a single fin so it has to be doable these days. Anyone seen one?
Eh? Fly paper..?
This an auto-correct BB?
No , it was McTavish's term for planing high underneath the lip with your centre of gravity beyond the rail. Here I am extending it to planing upside down across the ceiling of the barrel and, ideally, riding back down onto the face. The first part, getting momentarily upside down, is pretty straightforward in a big, super clean backhand barrel. The tricky bit is having enough speed and direction to ride back down rather than follow the lip over. I tried this quite a few times with predictable consequences but came close enough to know it is possible. The older bones and slower speed of movement made any further attempts unwise a couple of decades ago. Peter Crawford claimed to be able to do it on his kneeboard and I saw him take some extreme lines underneath the lip so I tend to believe what he said.
I can't help thinking a wave-pool would provide you with the best practicing ground for this manoeuvre, something not many people would even think of let alone try. P.C. told me also that he had done a few things on his kneeboard which I still don't think anyone has done.
ah maybe an asymmetric could do it, having one side for a square bottom turn , and the other side with a really short turning radius.
If you want to do a tight arc in the pocket , does this mean that you would compromise the bottom turn also , so maybe that's why boards looks so slow under the pros at the moment?
Yeah, maybe Sharkman, a correctly set asymm is potentially a solution. A good design could get the best out of the bottom turn and the pocket turn.
Also, I'm not seeing the boards being slow like you are. There's even been a few guys that I thought to myself how quick they were going: Toledo (at Snapper), Stu Kennedy, Melling, Flores, Andino in spurts.
been a lot of comments on how slow Kelly's nanas was, and against Stu , K made him look faster . The only surfer who's bds looked the same was Toledo's , same at Bells and margs they looked like they were nursing their turns a lot ,I ran into ADS and asked him why he stopped doing air reverses at the end of his waves as he has one of the best on tour . His reply was he had to slow the boards down to be able to man turns and doesn't have the speed at the end of the wave to do airs. Mick's bds even looked average , usually we are talking about "white lightning , and the speed of Mick , none of that at Snapper or bells .
After a very tight gouge in the pocket - which extra rocker and concave allow - notice that both Herring and Jordy fly out of that turn into a bottom turn and then quite often back off the top. This transition is what it is all about. It is impossible without a severe rocker and concave to carve a turn in the steepest part of the bowl on a wave and then continue without losing any speed and a continual unbroken rhythm. To begin this turn from almost verticle and then return to almost verticle is really something special.
Exactly! This isn't a bog standard cutback or carve. It begins going up the face vertically and ends going back down the face vertically - carving all the way through the steepest part of the wave. Then, if all is going well, the opposite rail is immediately sunk and it's repeated. No flat spots, no waiting, all done at max speed tight to the curl.
A few months back I heard Greg Webber talking about this but it wasn't till I re-read the Slater interview, noticed what Jordy (and Sebastian and Julian Wilson) are starting to do, and it began to gel. That's the next frontier.
Things are edging that way and I think board design will have have to adjust.
So how did people do it on single fins with no concave and less rocker than is used on standard designs these days? And believe me they did. Derek Hynd used whip them off one after the other in small to medium waves. I take the point that making the rocker fit the curve might be helpful, my point is that it can be done without that extra curve.
Well I guess I'd have to disagree that they did do them back then. No great conviction behind it, I wasn't around for Hynd, however KS calls it an unused area of the wave so I'll defer toward him.
Ha ha yeh I guess I should go looking for the evidence. Maybe they were a board length further out from the area Slater is talking about.
Stu have you surfed anything similar to this latest incarnation of the nana? I missed that whole era as I was raising my brood and was too busy with nappies, kindergarten and schools so only got in the water on the odd occasion. The theory seems logical I would just hate to give up the speed the current boards have in just about all conditions.
Nah, I've got a bunch of original nanas - this is starting to sound like the Banana Splits - but I rarely ride them. I'd like to get a hold of a Slater Design version but imagine they'll be in high demand.
The curious thing is this, I didn't ride nanas the first time around. My go to boards back then were more from the Vetea David mould: flat-rockered, full-railed, and wide. At the time I was enjoying boards I had to overcome, so the hyper responsiveness of nanas just wasn't my bag. Later on I used to smile upon hearing people say things such as 'Kelly Slater caused a generation of surfers to ride the wrong equipment.'
Not me he didn't.
About five or so years ago I bought a highly rockered Annesley from Manly. It was second hand but I got it for the right price and best of all it went great in bowly waves. That board got me thinking about nanas. Not deeply, it just put the design out there on the radar, but when Greg and Kelly started doing their thing I was already warmed to it. I like the design theory behind it.
Unlike asymmetrics, which as you know I'm really jazzed on, I don't think nanas present a complete solution to me. I'm very curious to ride one, would love to feel the design working under my feet just as Greg intended, yet I live on the East Coast. The reality is the conditions rarely match the requirement.
Thanks Stu that is similar to my feeling for them. The waves near me are such a liquorice all sorts and like you beachies that something with too much rocker would bog in the flats. We can have a lot of long walls in between sections. That thing Herring had really did have a bend that guy must have been freak to be able to control it.
I will attempt an explanation. It was due to the single fin setup itself, the most critical part of the turn done pivoting off the fin. A thruster setup has a lot more length of fins compared to the single, there is more to pivot. What you witnessed was probably the truth. So you have 5" to 6" of base on a single, and on a multi it's from say 3" from tail to 15" from tail for the full setup, 12". The fin overcame the lack of rocker and no concaves.
Further, these type of turns can be done, as Stu is saying, on a heavily concaved board with lots of rocker. They can also be done on a convexed single fin. Think loaded dome. One of these designs will work in every other part of the wave.
While we are sharing, the most vertical turns I ever did (landing them) were on flat bottomed, and vee'd single pintails back in WA as a young fella. Maybe it was youth and agression? If you were to stroll over to yt, check out some of Cheyne on Zaps, you will occasionally see in the footage the vertical turn, right back down, and into the carve into next top turn instantly. You had to do it on those boards, as the rail needed to be engaged the whole time, you can't 'pump off the fins' or do turns with fin pumps in them. He then transitions to full flight down the line with great speed, notice he is standing further forward - there is no loss of the board's potential speed. A design ridden at its best.
One great thing from all of this is surfing will concentrate on the rail again.
I believe Greg's new Banana's will surf best in Greg's new wave pool. A new type of surfing will evolve around the different lengthed but very sucky power pocket.
So when will we see the new pool? Will it be as good as Kelly's??
So Monty the future is board design in pools from Greg?
If the wave is similar to the one in Kelly's pool that sounds right as, with no sections, the need for drive down the line is greatly reduced.
I joked back when we took the first Banana boards to Sth Avalon that Greg hadn't yet designed the waves for these boards. It would be 10 more years until the idea of the wave pool gelled. Liquid Time, the surfing movie we finished in 2003, was the pre-curser to this whole generation of 'perfect wave pool' enthusiasts, as it showed on video for the first time that generating perfect waves was possible. Journey On (2014), the film I made about Shane Herring surfing in the early 90s, reinstated this new interest in super-rockered boards. Knowing Greg and how creativity sometimes works backward, I recognised that Greg's waves, if made - will be grindier and have a trough - and not be in dead water so to speak, as this is what his designs require. The curves and concaves of the boards and waves in these pools will promote a new type of even more exciting and powerful surfing than we have seen so far in pools or arguably open ocean surfing. Open ocean surfing will obviously be influenced but when a re-replicable wave of the type seen in Liquid Time is generated it will require a very specific board design if one is to utilize the area of the wave this conversation has been involved with and bring new meaning to the term 'Total involvement surfing' - ie: in and around the pocket. The paradox that Greg made the board before he made the wave is what is creativity is all about. He is making a wave to suit a board. Now that is something to contemplate.
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Monty,Gregs been into it now for a while so how close is he to getting one up and running,with all this Olympic talk about you would have to consider this his best chance to sell wave pools and boards to suit them.
God only knows.
"The paradox that Greg made the board before he made the wave is what is creativity is all about. He is making a wave to suit a board. Now that is something to contemplate."
So the board was made , then a pool designed around the board?
So the board won't go in the ocean but will have a purpose built pool/wave for it to be surfed in , shit do the investors know that?
Stu, any chance you can measure the concave depth on some of the old bananas you've got? Just say, 6, 12 and 18 inches from the tail up?
I'm wondering if the modern version is actually flatter at the stringer due to more concave.
From what I've noticed, that last 18inches of a lot of the pros boards have some serious engine room surface area manipulation. From deeper concaves, more angular at rail through to serious tail kick linked with pulled in tail outline from behind the fins. I tend to think its these factors, not the overall "rockered" banana type design that's the key.
The concs aren't that deep Wingy. Of the ones I've got the concave is never deeper than 5mm. They're a little hard to measure due to fixed fins but they sit around 5mm deep from the 24 inch mark to roughly where the front foot would be. Then heading backwards from the 24 inch mark they peter down to approx 3mm at 12 inch toward flat near the tail.
The concaves aren't extreme, certainly not like some of the stuff Maurice Cole has done in later years, but the rocker is definitely there; nose and tail lift are probably inches greater than current averages.
In contrast, I have an Annesley modern banana shape, probably shaped around the mid-00s, that has very deep concaves, up to 7mm just in front of the front fins, and the concave remains prominent right to the tail.
Also, I just bought a Slater Designs Webber Banana, so when I receive that I'll be able to compare the modern design to the originals. Really looking forward to doing that in fact.
Thanks Stu.
So, less concave on the old bananas equals more rocker at the stringer. Whereas, the modern pro boards especially, have more concave in that last third, so, the stringer rocker is flatter but rail rocker effectively toward the same as the old bananas.
On a couple of DHD boards, pro boards, I've seen, the tail kick is very evident, with the deck actually impacted. I suspect the evolution of design has taken the good from the bananas, the rail rocker, and minimised the bad, the slow (push water) ...
My conclusion. Don't need a banana to do those mid face carves. Oh wait, hang on, that's what Jordy has already shown us! So, WTF is slater doing going back to the banana design? Hmmmm...
Looking forward to the report Stu, especially the tail lift analysis.
(everyone loves a lifted tail)
+1 ... Bring it on Stu.
Saw Shane at Bells one year not sure when or against who must have been mid or late 90's, in the bowl doing massive bottom turns and power carves shooting spray in the air cliff high, the crowd was going nuts, nothing like that had been seen all day, he lost the heat, clearly didn't surf to the judging criteria, length of ride number of turns, it was gut wrenching would have got 9's today, the video in the article is testimony to his style and ability Kelly knows good surfing. Mark, used my wife's login.