Reforming of Islam

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nick3 started the topic in Friday, 2 Jun 2017 at 3:08pm

When will the teachings of Islam be reformed to be more relevant in the 21st century and why is it that people in this modern society still believe in god. I would have thought that any one with a funtional brain can see it as fabricated myth handed down from centuries ago.
To have people kill others in the name of god is made more sickening by the fact one doesn't exist.

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GuySmiley Wednesday, 7 Jun 2017 at 4:39pm

Rather bemused by this forum topic as if all muslims are a problem and not the radical fringe probably representing 0.000000000000001% or less of all muslims.

There was a state funeral today in Victoria for Anthony Foster who refused to let the sexual abuse of his two daughters by a Catholic priest rest. Tirelessly he and his wife Chistie fought the Catholic Church and eventually their efforts saw the Victoria Government establish a parliamentary inquiry into child abuse by religious orders. This inquiry revealed the shocking truth behind sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests and others and the church's attempts to hide or deny justice. This inquiry in turn led to the Gillard Government establishing the Royal Commission into the sexual abuse of children.

Anthony Foster was a softly spoken giant of a man and along with his wife stood as beacons of truth and inspiration for us all but in particular for all the innocent victims who gained the strength to tell their story at the Victorian inquiry or at the Royal Commission.

Just like not all Catholics or priests or ministers of religion are paedophiles not all muslims are terrorists or support terrorists so lets all have some balance here.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/campaigner-against-child-abuse...

As an aside the Victorian Police and Prosecutors Office are currently considering whether there is sufficient evidence to charge George Pell in relation to the Royal Commission matters.

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nick3 Wednesday, 7 Jun 2017 at 5:08pm

Guysmiley . Rather bemused by your answer. No one has said all Muslims are terrorist.

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nick3 Wednesday, 7 Jun 2017 at 5:11pm

Guysmiley . Rather bemused by your answer. No one has said all Muslims are terrorist.

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talkingturkey Wednesday, 7 Jun 2017 at 6:23pm

Fuck all this noise, we wanna know what Schappelle thinks of it all. Yew!

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tubeshooter Wednesday, 7 Jun 2017 at 6:24pm

Onya Davetherave, for taking my little pisstake the way it was intended. A subtle stab at some psychedelic references, the north coast .etc and not your views
As for Optimistic I think you missed that point , I'd like an ounce of what you're on. No more junk mail please. We all know the plot.
And I have to agree with Indo-dreaming that most muslims are moderates . I wonder how many earlier extremists tho , such as the KKK for an example, in their respective eras ,would have been harder to deal with had they had access to the internet and social media, satellite TV etc. I,m not blaming the web either , But we now live in a world where watching a beheading is only a click away. You couldn't say the word shit on TV in my day , and before that news was a hell of a lot slower and certainly a lot less graphic. Its a lot easier for people to get desensitized these days , and especially at an earlier age.

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happyasS Wednesday, 7 Jun 2017 at 6:46pm

agree nick, it is terrible. but reality is that its none of our business when its not in our country. we dont accept that stuff here in AUS and thats all that matters. there are clear differences between people of strong muslim faith (not even radicals) and western society values. but the fact that you brought up a stoning video isnt doing your argument justice. we are never going to accept such extremists into aus. issues like secularism and female/gender rights to be are more relevant to australia, and we already struggle with some of that in our past christian centric governments let alone other religions. provided we continue to maintain control of who immigrates to australia and then educate them properly then i dont really see much to be worried about. religion is dying a slow death in australia and will continue to do so.

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indo-dreaming Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 5:53pm

@Dandandan

I honestly don't know, id like to think it really not true, I'm sure in Indonesia you could always find cases to make an argument for a certain view, yes there is lots of religious intolerance in Indonesia but also a lot of religious tolerance, it's everywhere if you look for it, there is many places in Indonesia where churches and mosque sit side by side and get along fine.

I mean lets put this in perspective governor of Jakarta is almost as big as being president of Indonesia, well not really but you know what i mean it's pretty big. (Jakarta and it's surrounds Jabodetabek has a population greater than Australia at 30 million plus)

And here we had a leader who was ethnic Chinese a group not very well like by many Indonesians and then also Christian, that's pretty radical really.

That would be like in Australia us having a leader of African ethnicity that is muslim.

Im no political expert but my view is the Ahok thing was much more about politics than religion though, and those in politics saw the perfect opportunity to bring him down and used religion to do so.

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nick3 Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 6:34pm

but the fact that you brought up a stoning video isnt doing your argument justice. we are never going to accept such extremists into aus.
Shit Happyas this is exactly what they want to bring into Australia ( this is what they called Sharia Law ) the real Muslims believe in that. Those moderate Muslim's aren't real Muslims because they choose not to follow the Koran as it is written.
Do you think the Islam they are taught/follow over in Afghanistan is there is different?
No it is not because, the same Iman's come here to preach.

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talkingturkey Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 6:38pm

Hello, hello, is that really you, Margaret Court?

(BTW she's a 'real Christian'!)

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Blowin Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 6:50pm

Actually , the " real " Christians want to outlaw same sex marriage, because it leads to bestiality .

Apparently.

Go religion !! Yay !!

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talkingturkey Monday, 12 Jun 2017 at 3:27pm

Exactly.

Brush meet tar meet Nick, Nick, Nick.

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happyasS Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 7:30pm

nick, some particular muslim leaders have proposed sharia law to be recognised alongside our own legal law but it was shot down in flames. so i wouldnt worry too much. this is not something that is ever going to get up.

but that doesnt mean sharia cant have any place in Aus. aspects of sharia can be applied within a muslim community for many types of events that arent at odds with our system. for example family matters. we (you and I) dont have to accept/recognise it but a muslim family can AND without it affecting us in any way (provided no legal laws are broken of course so clearly stonings are out).

its a tricky subject no doubt and in some instances would create conflict, but then again look at our own system of law. husbands and wives going at it in court for literally decades and the only winners are the lawyers and the legal system itself.

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GuySmiley Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 7:47pm

reminiscing when it was the commies under the beds .......

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frog Thursday, 8 Jun 2017 at 10:09pm

The goal of many religions is world domination .i.e. to convert everyone. Most have no hope. Islam was borne of conquest and control and has proven itself very capable of both. But it stagnated as it does not support innovation, trade and economic growth very well. Without oil wealth it would have been fading from the world. Petro dollars has allowed it to fund itself and placed middle east countries in a position of influence. So smouldering embers were fanned. Western meddling and sponsored wars and conflict have been petrol on the fire.
Its ability to attract converts compared to say Hillsong type evangelism is weak. But through population growth and control over those who are in, it has the potential to take over countries such as France pollitically within decades.
So it is both a brittle religion and a strong one. It has forces acting to make it crumble away acting at the same time as population growth, oil money and frustrated youth is giving it new strength.
One expert sees this as its death throes, but they could last a century and it will not die quietly.
It is a peaceful religion when very small and in the post conquest phase.

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GuySmiley Friday, 9 Jun 2017 at 8:01am

.

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theween Friday, 9 Jun 2017 at 7:49pm

I know it won't happen in Australia any time soon but I believe there is a strong argument for bringing back the death penalty for those convicted of terrorist offences in Australia. As there is no prospect of rehabilitation for such offenders, the safety of society can only be guaranteed by their permanent removal. Happily, most of these scum are shot dead by police but for the terrorists who survive or failed plotters who are apprehended it would surely be a favourable outcome to see them swinging at the end of a rope.

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theween Friday, 9 Jun 2017 at 7:49pm

I know it won't happen in Australia any time soon but I believe there is a strong argument for bringing back the death penalty for those convicted of terrorist offences in Australia. As there is no prospect of rehabilitation for such offenders, the safety of society can only be guaranteed by their permanent removal. Happily, most of these scum are shot dead by police but for the terrorists who survive or failed plotters who are apprehended it would surely be a favourable outcome to see them swinging at the end of a rope.

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frog Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 10:32am

The concept of heaven, Valhalla, and paradise has much to answer for. It has been used to manipulate people to do some good but also some very bad things. The Vikings fought with such ferocity and were happy to die to go to Valhalla.
So lets imagine heaven:
- billions of souls hanging around endlessly doing nothing to the end of time - boring?
- billions of people you don't know, never wanted to know all hanging around you bored silly for eternity - creepy concept to me.
- perhaps you just hang with your relatives? A billion years with Uncle such and such and Aunty Mavis?
- eternity of nothingness - torture
- eternity of some sort of pleasure - the novelty would wear off after a million years.
- babies who died young hanging out with grandpas who became old grumblers in their last decades - do they interact as they were, if so how, if not and they are some new form of whatever, you are not you as you were, so it is not you up there as is promised?
- God having to meet the endless stream of sameness from the newly dead - could God stand this or would he hide somewhere to get some peace.
- billions of souls watching over their relatives on earth - envying them probably, watching them eat sleep, poo and the rest endlessly - that is just weird.
- God turning away good people of the wrong faith but welcoming suicide bombers - inconceivable.
- Is heaven Skeleton Bay at 6ft forever? If so after 5 weeks you would be bored silly.
I could go on. But if the concept of heaven and paradise is thought through it makes little sense and does not appeal much . Without it the leverage for many extremist acts fades away.
Jesus preached heaven on earth and that is was just about to happen. The Apostle Paul (who invented Christianity as Jesus was a Jew trying to reform Judaism) realised the promised heaven on earth was not happening anytime soon in the years after Jesus died and as doubt was starting to set in amongst the believers cleverly turned heaven into something up in the sky that no one could prove or disprove. And so the manipulation of the masses began.
So "Imagine there's no ....... "

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Herc Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 4:00pm

This mode of thinking dismisses and doesn't account for people throughout the ages and different Cultures and society's, who simply, sincerely and exclusively sought answers to questions about the origins of life, being and so on. There have been many and still are. Lester Levenson is a reasonably contemporary example of attaining some success in the area.

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Blowin Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 1:34pm

I understand Creflo A Dollar is making inroads in the same field.

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frog Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 2:08pm

People can ponder and wonder. We all do and should.

Formalising a structured religion that seeks to convert and control others in a mass movement is a whole different thing. It is usually at this point not about seeking answers and understanding.
Structured religions, taboos and belief systems promoted actively or aggressively are typically about exerting soft power control, typically by an elite or an ambitious yet-to-be elite, over groups of people. Some morph from origins that never intended this to happen (Jesus) others had this as a central theme by their conceiver(s) right from the start and have these roots of control deeply embedded in the fabric of their teachings.
Archaeologists, historians and anthropologists see the same pattern repeated endlessly in societies and cultures from Aztecs, to Druids to ancient Egyptian and Scientologists. Leaders can rely on military might but back this up with religion and you need a much smaller army or no army at all.

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Herc Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 3:26pm

'Why do people believe in God?
The short answer is in this well known line - "our father who art in heaven". Kiddies grow up and slowly emerge from the protection of their childhood to face the world and still want a dad to look after them.'

Perhaps why do some people believe in God would be more accurate. Obviously, as you agree, its not the reason all people believe in God. Some throughout history reached the conclusion after much effort, with no interest whatsoever in religion or asserting control and power.

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happyasS Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 3:46pm

'Why do people believe in God?
The short answer is in this well known line - "our father who art in heaven". Kiddies grow up and slowly emerge from the protection of their childhood to face the world and still want a dad to look after them.'

most ridiculous argument ever. daddy issues?

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sypkan Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 4:48pm

Why not believe in god?

Even the most ardent atheists are usually always on about karma or energy, or the latest fashion statement of 'mindfuless'.

While these concepts have been corrupted as much the abrahamic religions, people's pretty much universal respect of these concepts is evidence of some kind of higher force

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frog Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 5:49pm

The desire for someone god like watching over us to protect us and our family is a very fundamental need. Of course it is a simplification and only part of the reason people look for spiritual answers. But in the more dangerous past where war, disease, famine, wild animals or the tribe in the next valley could kill you or your family on any given day a sense that something bigger than them was there offering protection was very reassuring.
These days the typical search is more often about higher meanings and if outside the major religions can be through many diverse paths.

However, to understand the older religions and their potential for reform you need to understand their origins and how they converted and held their believers to get as big as they have. Islam not only has a belief structure, it has detailed instructions on day to day living and even a system of law. It is the total package needed to control a society described in detail. As such reform, desired or not, will not come easily.
Winston Churchill once met an islamic scholar and talked for some time about books, science and the world. In the end the scholar told Winston with a smile that he was wasting his time reading all those books and trying to understand science as everything you need to know is in the koran. That view is very common today still.

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Herc Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 5:54pm

'These days the typical search is more often about higher meanings and if outside the major religions can be through many diverse paths.'

As it was by those conducting the search before 'these days' who took many diverse paths to reach the same answer, and who realized the faults of major religions.

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tubeshooter Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 7:36pm

"Me thinks the meaning of life lay not within the murky depths of the bong water", questioned one former anonymous Tracks reader,, and highly regarded philosopher .

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Mort Saturday, 10 Jun 2017 at 11:19pm

Yadda, Yadda, ya, that seems like beneficent to God, ok, Sorry, it is the Flintstones. I loved that cartoon.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 10:01am

Last time i was in Indonesia i was thinking one reason why islam kinda sucks more than most religions.

And i think it's because it's a very in you face religion, for instance it's hard to know if Christians are Christians apart from maybe a cross around their neck and then traditionally there is church bells or if they preach too you.

Other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism it's really only the main dudes that wear anything religious like monks etc. although obviously in Bali hinduism is in your face with those offerings etc but i don't know it's just such a cool and colourful culture, its hard not to love it.

But Islam, well a huge number of people wear religious outfits, in some countries borquas but in Indonesia the men have those little caps sometimes or robes and and most girls wear hijab's and then no matter where you are there is the loud speakers blaring call for prayers, then you go to some shop and there is a sign that they have gone to pray, or often no sign, just no shopkeeper, its hard to get away from, very in your face.

That said when I'm not in Indonesian i kind of miss the call for prayers and I'm not that guy who whinges all the time when the call for prayers blare, i actually don't mind it and I kind of also find hijabs sexy in a strange way something kind of feminine about them.

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sypkan Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 9:51am

Haha too much info indo

The call to prayer is a weird one, it gets under your skin one way or another. Many crew hate it, but I find it kind of calming and peaceful

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sypkan Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 9:56am

It appears parts of the left have actually experienced a period of growth and self reflection...finally...

"Fully exploiting the uncontested space we provided them, extremists promoted their supremacist, hate-filled ideology to thousands of Muslims on satellite channels, through social media, on campuses and community events, day in, day out. In the battle of ideas, deconstructing their ideological world view was then and remains now one of our greatest failures. And fail we did – collectively, as Muslim institutions, human rights organisations, anti-racist groups and governments."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/10/stop-fretting-over...

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dandandan Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 12:46pm

I think so too sypkan. I know I have. For years I took issue with people who criticized both Islam in general or Muslims as individuals or groups on two reasonably sound positions.

I took issue with criticizing Islam because I saw that not being the point. People would say "Islam says....." and I'd rebut with "well Islam doesn't actually say anything, Muslims do. Islam as a religion doesn't mean anything at all until people start to interpret it."

I took issue with people criticizing Muslims because I knew they didn't know what they were talking about. They'd never met a Muslim, and didn't understand that there was a great diversity in the way people who call themselves Muslims live. There was this idea that there was some kind of magic spell cast over Muslims - that they literally, physically couldn't eat pork or drink alcohol, that if you buried a big in your front yard they couldn't come to your door, that there was this great big Islamic scheme that every single Muslim on earth was in on. This wasn't representative of my experiences, so I took issue with it.

Of course both of those things are contextual. I was from small town Tasmania, where .9% of the population are Muslim and are largely transient students or new arrivals who will move off the island when they are allowed to by the immigration department. There was a mosque (a house in suburban Hobart) and the only two mushollah I ever saw were on the campus of the university. My experience with Muslims was that of the famously syncretic Java, and the slightly more orthodox Lombok. I'd spent time in Aceh, Malaysia, Singapore and knew things were slightly different, but for the most part Islam was cultural color, rather than oppressive ideology.

What changed my thinking? The people I know were starting to be affected by it. Not by lone wolf attackers, by violent radicals... But by large fundamentalist community organisations like HTI and FPI, conservative local ulama, by state governments co-opting Islamic doctrine for political purposes and by an acquiescent and mostly uneducated part of the population who seemingly felt empowered by the unquestionable power that Islam gives people in a Muslim majority nation.

Friends that had never worn or had stopped wearing hijabs started to wear them more often to avoid slurs (sexual harassment in Indonesia and it's inexcusable), groups like Pemuda Pancasila were collaborating with FPI and local mosques to crack down on artistic expression, friends were stressing about how their children would succeed in life given that the government had cut back on science and maths in schools in favor of religion, and generally any friends that weren't Muslim living in Java could identify parts of their cities they wouldn't go to anymore for fear of harassment or even violence. Essentially, the problems more often associated with conservative countries in the Middle East were appearing in places, and affecting people, I knew.

Like I mentioned a while back, things have moved in a dramatically scary direction. Liam Prince at the ANU has convincingly argued that Ahok lost his position as governor for religious reasons (http://www.newmandala.org/economic-injustice-identity-politics-indonesia/). He was Christian, not to mention Chinese, and so he had no place leading a largely Muslim city. His prison sentence for two years for insulting Islam should terrify all Indonesians. Just yesterday a Pakistani man was sentenced to death for insulting the Prophet on Facebook. Five years ago nobody would have believed that a successful governor of one of South East Asia's largest metropolis would be arrested for same thing, but here we are. Is it too ridiculous to believe, even under Jokowi, that it could happen in Indonesia?

Consider Indonesia's shockingly violent recent history. 1965 communist massacres. The long-running conflict in Ambon. The incredibly graphic violence between Dayak and Madurese in the late 90's. Ongoing issues in Poso. The long running GAM separatist conflict. The 1998 anti-Chinese riots across Java and in other corners of Indonesia. Ordinary people - let's be honest, men - who in tense moments commit unspeakable acts. If you want to ruin your impression of Indonesia as a peaceful bunch, spend a few minutes on Google Image punching in each of those conflicts, or jump on Youtube and explore the phenomenon of socially accepted mob violence called 'keroyokan'. I've not traveled much, but once you leave the relative safety that ignorance provides, there is a palpable tension in Indonesia that feels like it can ignite very quickly.

This underlyng history of violence, fresh in the memory of many people today, could, in my mind, be shifted away from cultural and ethnic conflicts into a far larger and scarier religious conflict. I don't think it would happen overnight, especially given that every single person I know in the country is as likely to start a religious war as I am, but the freedom and impunity with which religious discrimination and violence has been able to exist in the public sphere is concerning.

Yes, people get arrested for acts of violence - but never for long. Yes, the anti-terrorist group Densus 88 have been incredibly successful in foiling extremist acts of violence. Yes, sometimes people are charged for inciting hatred online. And yes, a thousand times over, there is so many more positive examples of tolerance and peace than there is otherwise. That Indonesia's largest mosque and various Islamic bodies have refused to support an upcoming protest against the arrest of the FPI leader is a good example. But the more I dwell on it, the more I believe that there needs to be reformation within Islam - at least within individual nations. The governing bodies are there, as are moderate politicians (and those that will go wherever the votes go), and so too are key popular figures across a broad spectrum in all corners of the country. And if the popular swing towards a more conservative swing towards Islam tells us anyting, it is that it is possible to change the opinions of the nation in a short time.

P.S I'm with Indo. Hijabs are sexy.

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 2:31pm

Good post dandandan

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indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 3:34pm

Good post dandandan

Here is a relevant recent article

https://coconuts.co/jakarta/news/indonesias-militant-moderates-fight-rel...

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Blowin Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 2:49pm

Best post I've read in ages Dandandan.

Thanks.

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Sheepdog Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 3:22pm

Herc, Happy and Sypo bring up and touch on the question, "why believe in god?"

Because we are afraid of death. The biggest gutsiest drop of all, into the unknown. To believe in a god, an afterlife, or reincarnation or whatever, gives humans relief, and helps with grief when loved ones depart. Because of our brain capacity, we have over thousands of years created idle time for ourselves, thanks to farming, befriending the dog as a companion (which believe it or not was a MAJOR factor in human advancement - their noses kept us safe from carnivores at night) etc.
Other animals do not have this idle time to philosophise. They are too busy trying to stay alive to worry about "after death". 50 000 years ago around a camp fire - "where do we come from? Where do we go? What are those lights in the sky? Why do the rains come?
Gods are formed....

Does anyone here think we would be this advanced without "believing" in an afterlife? Atheists often argue that without religion, we would be far more advanced now.
Well I very much doubt that... Yes, "religion" is now a horse or bullock drawn plough, but it did serve a very important purpose.
Without faith, would some of the incredibly brave explorers explored? Would some of the amazing inventions been invented? Those gutsy seafarers had "god" on their side... They had the comfort of immortality. Perhaps "godless humans" would have been too scared to take risks. If death was the final end, you'd probably be a very careful caveman, because life is all you have. You'd be like a basic animal, protecting survival at all costs.
So yeah.... I think faith has served a purpose, as has religion. But as I said earlier, so did the horse drawn plough.

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Blowin Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 4:14pm

Sorry , Sheepdog.

A - Humanity had more time pre -civilisation. Who has more time to reflect , the person rising at 5am to work at the widget factory for 10 hours before coming home to cook, clean and maintain or the native that hunts for 2 hours then waits till he is hungry again ?

B - You ever seen a kangaroo in a paddock ? Does it look too busy trying to survive to contemplate life ?

C - God did not prompt humanity to explore or take risks. Necessity , curiosity and testosterone prompted it.

I'll grant you that some may have faced fear with the power of faith behind them . Good point.

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Sheepdog Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 5:33pm

Blowin, what do you mean :"pre civiilsation"? Nahhhhh. Maybe you meant pre industrial revolution.. Up until only a couple of hundred years ago, most villages grew their crops in spring and summer, harvested in autumn and celebrated, then moved their livestock inside and got drunk on home brew all through winter, singing songs and being merry.
As far as the kangaroo goes, animals do have to rest and sleep.. You'll note wild kangaroos are always on guard.

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davetherave Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 6:12pm

Nice post johnny Barker. Yes, its the fear of death that currently limits the human species. We have reformed a lot of our understandings but we still hold onto religious beliefs that common sense shows are childish. Time to grow up and marry yshua and Mohammed with quantum physics, biology and life experience. Awareness has many levels but evolution always empowers itself
Be empowered. Time for a new take on religion.

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happyasS Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 6:24pm

the catholic church has reformed in australia (although you'd still wonder what their official stance is on homosexuality for example) to the extent that it has needed to to avoid complete marginalisation, but if it doesnt do a lot more then people will continue to desert it. i dont see any organised religion as progressive.

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tubeshooter Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 7:02pm

"Among the founders of all religions in this world , I respect only one man,,the Buddha. The main reason was that Buddha did not make statements regarding the origin of the world .The Buddha was the only teacher who realised the true nature of the world" . Betrand Russell
"If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism" Albert Einstein

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Sheepdog Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 7:06pm

Happy, when women can be priests in the catholic church, when they allow gay marriage, I'll consider it "reformed".

I find it a bit rich that non muslims or christians or atheists should be calling out Islam for a "reformation". I doubt many here have even read their book. I haven't.
I personally think our foreign policy toward the Middle east should be "reformed". That would go a long way in stopping terrorism.

I believe even if you took way the religion aspect, the fact that Iraq was invaded via false intelligence, that middle eastern borders were drawn up via non locals after ww1, that a new country (israel) was formed after ww2, and it continues to steal more land, that a berlin like wall has been built, that 400 000 people have been killed for oil and gas pipelines, there would still be terrorism. Imagine if you may, that Australia had the oil, and the early 1900s, many other countries came here, split it up, and continued to reap the money, whilst having us ruled by murdering puppets.
Pretty sure we'd be losing our shit...

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Blowin Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 7:29pm

It's not Islam's fault.

Islam is just misunderstood !

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/11/pakistan-man-sentenced-to-...

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happyasS Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 7:50pm

4th bible commandment....."Not take the LORD's name in vain."

sounds like the 'rules' for islam and christianity are about the same.

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Herc Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 8:02pm

Many in the western world can't or won't accept that other, much older Cultures may have had inquirers, philosophers, let alone genius's. And some of those may have had more success, even much more success, than our famous examples. And expressed that success entirely, much differently, to the way our society measures success.

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Herc Sunday, 11 Jun 2017 at 8:22pm

And the question remains the same. The source of all this?

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sypkan Monday, 12 Jun 2017 at 4:56am

.

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sypkan Monday, 12 Jun 2017 at 4:54am

Yes, a very good post dandandan.

Good on you for being so forthright with your developing opinions and understandings. Its a difficult journey for people to accept and admit to changing realisations, and thus corrosponding beliefs. Kudos to you for doing so.

I know I come across on here as either a RWNJ, or a trolling shit stirrer, but I believe my intentions are pure. OK sometimes I'm just a plain shit stirrer, but it is often to make a point. And that point is about 'the left' and its acute inability of self reflection. This appears to be an inate human trait, so its understandable and expected. However, I believe 'the left' has created an impervious echo chamber well beyond that of the RWNJ's, as decades of education in conventional wisdom has culminated into a religious like dogma. A dogma so deeply protected by a pc bubble of delusionment that it is unaware of its own issues.

'Liberals'or 'progressives' literally lose their shit every time trump 'doubles down'on his more outrageous statements. I think however, for most of the public, the 'doubling down' of progressives on the conventional wisdom regarding islam and terrorism is way more unbelievable, irrational and irresponsible than anything trump has ever done, and we're just starting to see the effects of this now.

I see reformation of islam as happening right now, whether purposely initiated or not, it is happening due to many forces, and I cite my little head banging hijabs video as living proof.

But there clearly is resistence, just as there is much resistence in western countries to 'the progressive agenda'. I see many people across cultures and religions rejecting much of the conventional wisdom on a heap of topics. I see this as a natural backlash to a liberal agenda that seems to be in too much of a hurry, but also as a reaction to the hollowness of the supposed 'cultural marxist agenda' progressives advocate (if such a thing exists??). People yearn for more than this, and It appears that 'whatever floats your boat' and 'as long as you're not hurting anyone' are not nearly strong enough, or complete enough principles to build a whole happy, cohesive society upon, and people are feeling this. Its probably sexist or misogynist to say so, but I think events such as britney spears getting around with no hair and no underpants were the crucial turning points for many communities, east and west, across the globe where many people thought errrr...thanks... but no thanks...

Despite this bump, I believe society will move away from formal religions as happyas points out. But this process is going to be much slower than many had hoped, and they need to seriously adjust their expectations to suit.

I thought the reformation of Islam was the answer. And that, if we all just played nice and allowed this to happen all will be well, but it appearrs its not going to be that simple or quick. There is much resistence, many greviances, and way too much unpredictability in the nature of humans to think we "just need to hug it out" (katy - pathetic piece of shit - perry).

In fact after hearing the author of a new book 'Islamic exceptionalism' on the abc. This is not going to be simple or quick at all, and potentially may not even be possible at all for much of the islamic world according to this author.

"“A riveting account of the Arab Spring and all that followed, by one of the world’s leading scholars on political Islam. Shadi Hamid explains convincingly that Islam and the political movements it spawns are truly exceptional and likely to frustrate the ‘liberal determinists’ who believe that history inevitably gravitates to a secular future. A hugely important book.” –General David Petraeus (Ret.), former director of the CIA and commander of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan"

Yep a good post too sheepdog. But I would add that religion gives people hope. Its amazing what can be overcome with a little hope. Or, more importantly, what cannot be overcome if there is no hope!

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Blowin Monday, 12 Jun 2017 at 8:50am

Happyass - For sure the rules regarding the crime of blasphemy are the same for Islam and Christianity ie both are utterly ridiculous as seen through the prism of rational thought.

It's just that the punishment for the crime is a little more reactive for Islam.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-07/charlie-hebdo-satirical-newspaper-...

Please attempt to defend this. I'm going for a surf and would love to have a good giggle lined up for when I get back.

Sheepdog - It's definitely about the poor mistreatment of the Middle East by the west in the pursuit of oil. Maybe the terrorists thought they were actually attacking the Chevron offices ?

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davetherave Monday, 12 Jun 2017 at 8:57am

Taking the Lord's name actually refers to the personal use of I Am. So when you think or say i am this or I am that, it will produce an effect in your life. You are a creator, so I invite you all to consider reforming how you think about yourself and the life outside yourself. Who are you? I am?????? I am accepting of all life even with my own bias and limited understanding. Who are you? It's a life defining answer .