What's government for?

mk1's picture
mk1 started the topic in Friday, 16 Dec 2016 at 10:45am

I often think that a lot of political argument could be boiled down to different interpretations of the purpose of government. So what do you think is the purpose of government?

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Friday, 16 Dec 2016 at 10:47am

The lock out laws being one of those key political arguments

fong's picture
fong's picture
fong commented Tuesday, 27 Dec 2016 at 2:08pm

Government is for a central control of the people.

It matters not if its a democracy or communist party.

In Australia nothing is published in the media without the government control.

Ffs....we just had the longest war in our history ( which we lost ) and it hasn't been mentioned.

Once you control the water, food, Internet and media.

You control the people.

Oi oi oi.....plebs

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming commented Tuesday, 27 Dec 2016 at 3:31pm

In a simple sense I guess it's really to prevent chaos and anarchy and to have a degree of order.

If you didn't have a government it would be hard to have other areas of authority like police etc

It could be hard to even have simple things like roads, as id just say fuck you this is my land and put a fence up :P

But i guess if i did that, everyone would probably group together and the mob would take me out, then if it happened to much they might even go on to elect a leader to guide the mob if needed, and make rules so they don't get people like me doing whatever they want.

Then i guess you are halfway to forming a government system.

It's pretty crazy when you think about it all, and how it's come to be, people like to whinge a lot but really things are pretty good in Australia, maybe they can be better, i guess that's not a bad thing to strive for though.

Sorry i don't mean to bring Indonesia into everything, but it's interesting in Indonesian communities especially small villages where they have a kepala desa (head of village) they get voted in by the community every few years, generally male normally the alfa male, and they basically represent the village and deal with the bigger head of the district, it's interesting because you can see how it evolved from originally it's like a mini government.

Ada gula, ada semut!

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 27 Dec 2016 at 10:12pm

means different things for different people living in different times and of different ages. one could hardly assume the same positions for a country like indonesia than what we expect here in australia.

for me, at its highest level our govt need only provide a framework to ensure the welfare and prosperity of all australians taking into consideration our place in the global context.

of course thats a pretty broad statement and open to interpretation, and hence the flavours of political parties that exist today.

in terms of lock out laws. if the overall benefit to society is positive then im ok with it . its not my preference to see lockouts, but apparently im not allow to beat the one-punch-wonders within an inch of their lives without getting into trouble myself, and we cant rely on our legal system to deliver appropriate punishment because taxpayers whinge about how much it all costs, all the while drug abuse into young people continues, and yet 99% of the population just wants to have a good night out without hassle. if all those matters dont fall within the mandate of government in a modern first world nation then i dont know what does tbh. what else should they do? taxes, health, and education fills the first 5 minutes of their day. im not paying them to sip tea for the next 7 hours and 25 minutes.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Wednesday, 28 Dec 2016 at 9:26am

On lock out laws.

It doesn't really effect me as my days of going out and getting smashed starting Thursday night and ending Sunday morning are thankfully over, i rarely drink and the only time i go out and get pissed is if i see a band.

Personally i think "lock out laws " can only be a good thing.

The pub down here on the Island in the 90,s-00's was only licensed to 1:00 and really it was the best thing ever, the night never fizzled away it was always last song, then bang lights on, you either had a girl under your arm and you were off, or you moved onto a party at someones house, or if you did go home at 1:00 you always felt much better for it in the morning.

Also lived and partied hard on the Gold Coast for years where the night never ended, and really it sucked, no one would go out until late (unless there was a crazy drink special like at the Edge) and often the night would just fizzle away, and if you didn't get a girl you would just try to keep the night going moving from bar to bar, spending any money you had, when you finally gave in to go home you would come outside it would be getting light, the waves were often good and you would go home pissed and depressed and spend the whole next day in full hang over pain.

And even if you were luck to get a girl during the night, sometimes it was a mission to get her home as sometimes she wanted to keep on parting.

If it was up to me, i wouldn't give any pub or nightclub a licence to stay open after 1:00 with last drinks at 12:30.

Maybe I'm getting old but the whole industry is really a joke anyway, by law barperson aren't suppose to serve alcohol to people who are intoxicated, as if that happens.

Ada gula, ada semut!

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 28 Dec 2016 at 8:14pm

Lockout laws are for the taliban.... If these so called "governments" stopped using police as a cash cow, and used police for what they were designed for (going on the beat) then most of these assaults would be dealt with before they happen.... But instead, police are out there booking people for going 63 in a 60 zone, raking in cash for inept governments.

Yeah indo, you write "It doesn't really effect me as my days of going out and getting smashed starting Thursday night and ending Sunday morning are thankfully over".
Well...... It doesn't affect you..... Cool....... It affects the Yiros stand owner... It affects young bands trying to make a quid..... It affects taxi drivers...... It affects staff at clubs, and liquor suppliers..... It affects tourism..... In Las vegas, Berlin etc, there is a visible police presence... Sydney is now looked at internationally as a wowser city....
But it doesn't affect you, so that ok... lol.

Sheepdog

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Wednesday, 28 Dec 2016 at 9:18pm

Well sheepdog, I'll take the wowser rep over the rep for drunken aggro the city had before the lock out laws. I would tie closing times to the number of violent incidents; as they go up closing time gets earlier, as they go down, it gets later. Probably end up with a six o'clock swill the way the local thugs behave!

Hastoes's picture
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Hastoes commented Wednesday, 28 Dec 2016 at 10:08pm

Lock out laws are in place to curb the violent behaviour that unfortunately occur. Yes ? If this is the prime directive of these laws , then WTF are they doing showing UFC fights in our pubs? I work up in the gold coast in the hospitality industry. I see pubs and clubs full to the brim with people getting shitfaced every-time there is a big fight on. I don't get it!

aj

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 28 Dec 2016 at 10:38pm

BB, I remember some god almighty brawls back in the 80s..... But cops seem to swoop pretty quick.... And no one was armed with a video camera connected to a mobile phone connected to the world wide web. Think back..... Holy crap if cameras were around then.... Then of course theres what i have brought up in the past that people just write off - nicotine.... In 1983, 50% of us smoked, inside...... Everyone was blanketed with the haze of the north american peace pipe... And you had a drink in one hand, a ciggy in the other.... If your drink got spilled, it was usually "ahhh sorry mate, here I'll get you another"..... And you couldn't be fucked putting both your ciggy AND remaining beer down to throw a punch...
These days, everyone isn't chilled on nico, instead they are all gee'd up on 50 cups worth of caffeine in one can, full of overpriced rum, got one spare hand to go whack, and the chilled ones are forced outside to have a smoke...... Recipe for one punch attacks for sure..
And Hastoes makes a great point too..... I'd put money on it that sat night is worse atm than friday..... At about midnight, chanell one has bellator... It finishes around 2am...... I bet fuckwits sit at home drinking, then at 2am, go out and ape what they see..... IMO Bellator should be on Tues night....

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
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floyd commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 10:56am

I worked in pubs for a few years 15 years or so ago. There was this thing called responsible serving of alcohol, meaning it was illegal for the publican and the bar staff to serve an intoxicated person. I was taught that if a drunk customer got into his/her car and crashed killing someone the pub and its staff could be legally held responsible. Pub licences could also be removed. Of course none of this is policed and pubs continue to serve people beyond legal limits. Why? well, the lobby groups supporting clubs, pubs and the alcohol industry are some of the biggest in the land. The last politician I heard saying anything about this was that former Family First Senator.

The lock out laws are in place because of the violence and self inflicted harm as measured by emergency / causality ward presentations. The doctors that work in these hellholes strongly favour them.

..... and why should police have to police poor behaviour of the customers from pubs. Shouldn't the clubs and pubs have that responsibility and cost?

Australia is awash with alcohol and its negative effects. The recent Victorian Royal Commission into domestic violence found that abuse of alcohol in the home is a significant factor leading to mum getting bashed.

The sooner Australians accept we have a drinking problem the better. There is no need for lock laws in other international cities like Paris or Rome because their citizens don't drink like us.

Face the facts, we truly are a pack of drongos when it comes to the piss.

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 1:59pm

I rarely if ever agree with you Floyd but this time i agree 100%

BTW. Sheepdog aren't lock out laws just about not letting people back in after 1:00 or 1:30, you can still stay and keep drinking, you just cant go on a pub crawl.

In regard to live music, i fail to see how it could effect them 90% of gigs I've been too somewhere between 50-100 gigs in Melb, Sydney, the Gong-Goldie, Byron, Brisbane the headlining band is finished by 2:00 am normally earlier and always always started playing before 1:00 so if your not inside somethings up.

Getting in early is only a good thing, to many people don't catch the support bands.

The reality is pokies in pubs have had a bigger impact on live music scene as has other issues like apartment developments encroaching into inner city areas putting restrictions on venues with noise limits etc.

Nightclubs have probably lost more in alcohol sales due to pills than anything else in recent history, some places I've been too it's crowded and no ones drinking and you don't even need to line up at the bar.

Taxis have lost out to Ubur etc

Ada gula, ada semut!

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 2:24pm

floyd, the French actually drink more than us on a per capita basis but their drinking culture is very different. As you say, a lot of pubs clearly do not enforce the existing rules and, when caught, receive no substantial penalty. Similarly, unless they kill or severely injure someone, penalties for drunken violence are weak. If we are serious there would be very substantial fines, $10,000+, for brawling in public.

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 5:25pm

Yes, agree BB, I was recently in the France and Italy and pretty much all cafes sell wine with a meal, didn't see one drunk person in the weeks we were there.

Island Bay's picture
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Island Bay commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 5:37pm

I remember an article about living in SW France - by Ben Mondy, I think. He talked about the cultural differences, and in particular mentioned a junior surf comp that had a free bar on the beach - and not a single young surfer drinking.

NZ is like Australia in this regard. People over here are terrible drunks; drink far too much, can't hold their liquor, come home and beat up their wife and children. Many are so inhibited that they can't have a decent conversation unless well lubricated.

batfink's picture
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batfink commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 6:23pm

Such a good question Mk1. Goes to the very heart of so many conflicts, and underlines particularly the difference between left and right in political terms.

I'm trying to find the quote by a King called Hammurabi. He wrote in his code, paraphrased from memory, that the first role of government was to protect the weak from the strong, the poor from the rich. Can't think of a better way to describe the role of government.

The political right, and in USA even many from the democrat side, believe that anything delivered by government is, by definition, corrupt, and therefore, as Ronald Reagan, said, government isn't the solution to the problems, government is the problem.

This is the very far end of the right wing nut job, unthinking, brain dead conservative mindset. Fong has given a good synopsis of it, thanks Fong.

What should government do, goes back to the fundamental question of what sort of society do you want. I know what I want, public education, publicly provided and largely free health and hospital care, law and order (but not to the point we are at today, the vast over-reaction to events of the last 35 years or so displays the worst of humanity and politicians)

Laws, courts, good roads and public transport would be nice, not approving every fucking coal mine that comes through and selling off our commonwealth to the lowest bidder, protecting our water, our air and our environment generally, and in my opinion, and this is where there is so much variation in thinking, a very strong hold on the excesses of capitalism. Capitalism is a fundamentally flawed system, essentially coming down to 'dog eat dog, and biggest dog wins.' Capitalism needs a somewhat socialist government ethic to survive. Much of the world has followed USA's lead and move more toward 'free markets' - a concept that has never existed anywhere at any time in the history of humanity. Capitalism, given free reign, will inevitably eat itself, and we are witnessing that right now. Look around, the world order is crumbling, these are most interesting times. Capitalism unleashed leads inevitably to revolution, where the masses of the underclass are happy to risk their lives to undo the powerful and the wealthy. Fark, USA must be on the brink of something big.

So government is there to rein in the excesses, to bring order to the naturally occurring chaos. Unfortunately we have moved to this place where this means to some people, that we record and store every phone call you made, internet activity, where you were, etc, and make that available to foreign governments (USA and others - five eyes pact). That's just government, particularly of the right, using the time honoured tactic of scaring the people to keep them under control. It is hideously hypocritical, they want free rein, and they want to tie up the masses.

So go back to Hammurabi, only 3,800 years or so ago, and realise that it was largely worked out then, protect the weak from the strong, the poor from the rich.

So much of the rest is cant, hypocrisy, and in the case of the right and the chattering classes of the left, the concern that somebody, somewhere, may be having a good time.

Good topic though, worthy of some quality discussion.

fong's picture
fong's picture
fong commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 10:45pm

Government is for control.

Sadly since the days of chiefly have passed it is for control for the ruling party.

The ideals of democracy and government have wain with the flaws of the leaders we have elected.

Who doesn't know of some dubious local council deal?

Local councils. ...that tax you but are unlawful under our federation mind you!

Government. ...today....in this country is about who gets control the contract they can give to there backers, mates. Family while being a total ego head they think they are celebrity

fong's picture
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fong commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 10:51pm

A side question if i may ask?

Can you imagine your life without being controled completely by your government?

Its ok to say that scares you......

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Thursday, 29 Dec 2016 at 11:32pm

Fong. Yes I can, it's called living in a small or isolated community

Bjork said living in iceland is basically like living under a system of anarchy (the good version) where people pretty much do what they want and sort shit for themselves. Parts of oz are like this, and it's a good thing!

Just don't be a dickhead, and you'll be fine. Maybe not so easy in oz as evidenced by our percieved need for lockout laws

I hate to get all right wing nutjob but big government and the complexity sellers have had their day. It's time to reboot the settings...somehow....

From the guardian

"....From the US tax code to the structures of the European Union (an organisation so complex that leaving it is starting to look all but impossible), all this complication is also reflected in the workings of states and governments. Moreover, though they were sold to us as a means of simplifying the tangled messes weaved by bureaucracies, the endless marketisation and contracting-out that now define policies across the planet have only made things worse.

Consider what the American thinker David Graeber calls his “iron law of liberalism”: “Any market reform, any government initiative intended to reduce red tape and promote market forces will have the ultimate effect of increasing the total number of … regulations, the total amount of paperwork, and the total number of bureaucrats the government employs.”

batfink's picture
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batfink commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 7:21am

OK, I thought the question was better approached from the perspective of the words used by Mk1, 'What do you think is the purpose of government', rather than 'is our current political system working.

Of course it's not working, it's a complete fuck up. It is about as bad as it can get, and it is only through centuries of development of systems of organisation, turbo-charged by the possibilities of the computer, that the whole thing hasn't fallen around our ears.

It's a complete diabolical mess. I've read David Graebar's quote before sypkan, and it tends to be true, but doesn't have to be. The Tax Act in Australia runs to something like 4,000 pages (apparently) and the regulations attached to the Act runs to another 4,000 (I just read it somewhere from reliable journalists). That's a complete joke. How about re-writing the tax act to state that all business pays 5% tax on the revenue, and wage earners pay tax on a sliding scale as per current settings. Tax Act, 2 pages tops. Could be done.

But there are too many fingers in the pie, everyone thinks they should be exempt from paying it, and some have a good case to argue.

Imagine that, 95% of accountants and about 40% of lawyers would be out of work. They could even be put to good use doing productive work. Imagine that.

Complexity is with us because it is, but you can try to fight against that. It's just that nobody is. Pollies just pile laws upon laws, rarely getting rid of old laws. But it's not just government, every big business is full of bureaucracy, and are exactly as inefficient as government departments. Size breeds complexity breeds bureaucracy, but if government just 'got out of the way' then there would be coal mines right up to our back fence, no running water and thick black smoke where air used to be. There wouldn't be a tree left.

Fong, government doesn't control us. It does set boundaries around our behaviours, most of them reasonable and readily agreeable, they don't tell us what to do and when to do it. Control is the wrong word. You just look like a conspiracy theorist trotting that word out.

davetherave's picture
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davetherave commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 10:54am

How about Russia govt. Plane with seven journos and one human rights activist goes down. Plane only serviced one day before. Putin at his worst. Israel protected by the money changers. Trump and turnballs need the Jew's. Ka ching. Corruption and govt go hand in hand and yes tax laws a joke. Syria and the world homeless situation shows just how poor humanity governs itself.

davetherave

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 12:25pm

Yep I agree with you batfink. That article is basically saying societies get incredibly compkex before they collapse. People have been saying we're on the edge of collapse for a while...sure seems that way.

I'd post the link but that capcha thingy has gone all nazi again. I think people would prefer a bit of spam than deal with that thing! It's a dog of a thing, a bit like government, sometimes best to throw shit out and start again.

Here's the article anyway

The lesson of Trump and Brexit: a society too complex for its people risks everything
John Harris

I'm not one of those anti tax, anti government loopys. It's just really clear that sruff is broken, and governments are still in denial.

The problem I see is legislation, departments and services built to facilitate efficiency on top of, legislation, departments and services to such a point that there is no efficiency.

All this while we're sold market liberalisation as the answer. Which clearly hasn't worked. Fuck, even alan greenspan has come out and said neo -liberalism has been a failure yet most politicians of both sides still defend it

Your tax idea is what is needed. All those lawyers and accountants spend their days working out how to game the already inefficient system. And the same people have the gall to say unskilled workers are unproductive, uncompettitive and inefficient...the irony burns.

We need government to manage the 'commons' or the place would be mess, the envorinment unliveable, and the system totally unfair, as you say. But it seems government just wants to meddle more and more in peoples lives, hence the nanny state. The difficulty is having things like universal healthcare without telling people how to live their lives. ATM governments just tinker at the edges because they don't want to loose voters. So we end up with things like lock out laws, and the inability to smoke in open spaces (which do make us a laughing stock internationally btw, some travellers were laughing at/with me just yesterday) while we have an obesity epidemic that is untouchable because it's blasphamous to talk ill of mcdonalds, coca cola, and the people's need for free choice. What fucking free choice??

I really don't know how to have good government services without meddling or controlling as fong puts it. But clearly aussie culture doesn't work well with some freedoms, our culture of 'work hard play hard' worked for a while but now seems dated and defunct. I think MMA is a big part of our violence problem, as some have stated. I used to be anti boxing in my idealistic youth, but have grown to love bellator etc. It's a hell of a spectacle! I first saw it in japan years ago as 'pride' or 'prido', when it seemed to be still banned in oz. I respect the honour and repect that comes with it between the fighters, something that seems to be lost on your average aussie grunt. Combined with drugs, energy drinks and alcohol, aussies are loose.

Australia is 'unique' in many good ways, but bad as well.

Back to the government thing, free markets haven't worked. Globalisation has facillitated the the corruption of markets, tax systems, and countries at least as much as it has addressd any poverty issues. The miserable bastards topping themselved at Ipod factories were probably better of working rice fields but on paper we've lifted millions out of poverty while turning china into a big stinking smoke factory.

The answers are in government regulation, but not the cumbersome western ways, desperately trying to hold onto post WW11 idealism, while the 'entrepeneaurs' are free to rape and pillage the third world, and stash the cash in panama.

The biggest issues are 1970s economic systems, and ideas of full employment. Those lawyers and accountants will loose their shit when they loose their jobs, just like the skilled (yes skilled!!!) manufacturing dudes are now.

An article picked the rise of trump well before he bacame president elect. White collar workers see their jobs going the way of blue collar workers, and they're not happy. Need people to define themselves by more than their jobs if we want to avoid bad anarchy . How you do that in a secular state where dollar is the main religion remains to be seen.

Call it protectionism or isolationism, call it whatever you want, I think it's good if things are made and grown, and then disposed of locally. I think if we could have some of trump's ideas combined with an enviromental consciousnes it would be good.

Cut out all the bullshit. Use batfink's two page tax document. But add a third page (oh no! already!!) But it's the international tax agreement, based on the idea of food miles from the UK. Where all countries pay an enviromental costs and transport percentage for moving stuff around the world. That would encourage people to think and employ locally, cutting out some of these ridiculous ideas like that it's more 'efficient' to transport oranges from south america while australian farmers burn CO 2 ploughing their 'uneconomical' crops back into the ground.

Can't see any of it happening until we experience full enviromental or economic collapse

May not be long now....

floyd's picture
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floyd commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 1:31pm

G'day Dave, how was your Christmas?

davetherave's picture
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davetherave commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 2:02pm

Gday Floyd. Had great time. I turned fifty on Christmas Eve. So fun times. Had great body surf thru rainbow. Didn't get dropped in by Mals once. I think aussies need to be a bit more activist in regards to our govt. Apathy will be the end of us. I also think it important to set up community gardens and barter systems to facilitate better interaction within our local areas. Our reliance on technology and electricity grid's May just show how vulnerable our economic culture really is. Hope you all have a fantastic new year and get into some mischief. Especially you Floyd.

davetherave

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 2:06pm

i'd love to see a "reboot" on many issues, like taxes. but dont forget the universal law of entropy......the end goal is limitless complexities built ontop of complexities until all you are left with is perfect internal disorder. but looking on the bright-side ill be dead soon enough and doing my bit to help restore order to the system.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 3:22pm

I think our starting point for a reboot should be politicians entitlements. That bronwyn bishop bitch retired on 200 k a year, with god knows what other perks, free travel etc.etc.

Apparently the age of entitlement is over as the government stigmatises pensioners who've worked all their lives and retire on a pissy 10k a year, and they talk of unsustainability...it really is an insult of the highest order. Then cut back that stupid 1970s public service pension. A mates old man retires on something like a 3/4 of his wage. Who the fuck came up with this shit? Did they really believe it was doable?

Fucking baby boomers, enjoyed free education, slackass jobs for life, ridiculous pension packages, then take it all away and impose economic rationalism on the rest of us, whilst exploiting cheap real estate opportunities and negative gearing. The drawbridge generation. They should volunteer some of their excesses or people will end up taking it anyway.

Take the power back!!!

davetherave's picture
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davetherave commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 4:49pm

I agree. I have nothing against people benefiting from a productive role for the community. But the financial bias we have is criminal. Politicians and multi nationals need to be brought back into line.

davetherave

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 4:52pm

What about this? (cut and pasted from elsewhere)

1. Scrap political pensions.
Politicians can purchase their own retirement plan, just as most other working Australians are expected to do.

2. Retired politicians (past, present & future) participate in Centrelink. A Politician collects a substantial salary while in office but should receive no salary when they're out of office.
Terminated politicians under 70 can go get a job or apply for Centrelink unemployment benefits like ordinary Australians.

Terminated politicians under 70 can negotiate with Centrelink like the rest of the Australian people.

3. Funds already allocated to the Politicians' retirement fund be returned immediately to Consolidated Revenue.
This money is to be used to pay down debt they created which they expect us and our grandchildren to repay for them.

4. Politicians will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Politicians pay will rise by the lower of, either the CPI or 3%.

5. Politicians lose their privileged health care system and participate in the same health care system as ordinary Australian people.
i.e. Politicians either pay for private cover from their own funds or accept ordinary Medicare.

6. Politicians must equally abide by all laws they impose on the Australian people.

7. All contracts with past and present Politicians men/women are void effective 31/12/16.

The Australian people did not agree to provide perks to Politicians, that burden was thrust upon them.

Politicians devised all these contracts to benefit themselves.
Serving in Parliament is an honour not a career.

The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so our politicians should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

Ada gula, ada semut!

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 5:11pm

i got no problems with politicians being paid well, very well, but PROVIDED they actually do some friggen work. think about the job - its supposed to be paving our future. it should be hard work, really hard work. then pay them well. except they all treat it like a joke. BUT we also, the australian people, treat politician AND the system like a joke too. I am yet (with the exception of the UK) to meet a people who hold such disdain and distaste for their leaders AND public servants even too. its normally a rip into them fest given any chance. in many countries it is actually seen in high regard to work for the govt, but not so here in australia. the leaders we have are a reflection on the people we are to some extent.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 6:28pm

Yo, Dave...... Remeber some of the freakn brawls at the playpen? Remember the line of pubs at the Cairns esplanade you just wouldn't go in? It's like the purple sweater episode of Seinfeld , all this "back in my day people knew how to drink responsibly"...... everyone is sounding the the old guys in that monty python sketch..

Anyhow, Rave........ Tell Jimmy to pull in to a few for me.... have a top new year bro... You got my number.... Cheers, mate.

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
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floyd commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 6:48pm

Hey Dave, good you had some good body surfs over christmas, not me, went to a lot of trouble to get away from civilisation in a isolated corner of the state, top waves when they are on, but not this time. Mischief? who me?

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 6:57pm

I've got no problem with paying politicians well either happyas. I actually get lots of shit from my mates defending their wages. Most put lots of hours in, even the bad ones, as they literally never knock off. But none of them deserve to retire on 200k a year! Especially when many go onto lucrative opportunities as a result of their public service.

Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 7:33pm

Sypo, I agree re' wages...... Same with police wages..... They should be paid a helluva lot more imo....... BUT!!!!!! With a caveat.....
Politicians, police, Judges etc are put in a position of public trust... The wage should reflect that...However, if found to be corrupt, or with their hand in the till, their penalty should be THREEFOLD that of a normal civilian... For example, if you pay a police officer a damn fine wage, there is no excuse, NO excuse, for being in cahoots with drug syndicates.. Same deal with pollies..... If they are on a damn fine wicket, but are found to be getting kickbacks that would send a eg - builder to jail for 5 years, then they should get 15.

Sheepdog

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Friday, 30 Dec 2016 at 8:33pm

the good old days of parliamentary pensions are over. its been corrected and in my opinion is much fairer. still generous. but if they are ACTUALLY working 7 days a week then im ok with a generous scheme. but "working" and working in australian's interests is the crucial matter. just "playing" the game, the party line, staying low for years, and walking away with a big pension handout is not good enough, even if they spent 7 days a week on call. if a pariamentarian cannot walk away at the end and say "I, myself made a real difference" then what was the point? they pay should be generous enough to not even have to think about money. i dont want them thinking about money. their focus should be wholy and wholeheartedly for the people. and when the greedy ones are corrupted then yep - jail time. there is no excuse as SD says.

so what is govt for? well at present id say it works to support the hand that feeds it.

davetherave's picture
davetherave's picture
davetherave commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 8:39am

I agree with all of the above. Be nice to have decisions being made without factional bias. But let's face it. The mighty dollar rules the roost. Why hasn't their been more noise and action against the multi national tax avoidance that has come to light? Seriously this shows just how weak our govt has become. Stand over tactics of doing business elsewhere wins over making them contribute like Australian workers and small business. Jobs jobs head jobs more like. Let's get after them. Pay up or piss off. We are smart enough to grow especially without cheats and thief's. SD my saints tragic friend, email brother email.

davetherave

fong's picture
fong's picture
fong commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 9:38am

interesting comments.

Politicians should have both wages and pension tied to their performance.

A simple measurement would be the standard of living ( which I read saw oz drop another couple spots down the list AGAIN this year.)

Basically if a international measurement of the standard of living of the citizens goes up....so should there pay....if it goes down ...so should there pay.

Lol...as if they would vote that in for themselves. .lol

Conspiracy theories or not....government is for control.

Central control.

It may be for the benefit of the population or not.

But its control...Central control.
With armys of servants watching and controling your bank accounts, phone calls, your travel,cars , boats, health care, education.

Government monitors and controls every aspect of your modern life.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 11:08am

Fong writes "Politicians should have both wages and pension tied to their performance."

What is "performance"?........ Who rates "performance"...... Is society to be treated like the stock market? That's 1/2 the problem these days, fong..... Society is not a business... Whilst it is being treated as such, the "deplorables" grow in number... And my interpretation of "performance" may be different to your interpretation....

Sheepdog

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 11:11am

Yes, Dave... Saints tragic...... But as you know, I've been a sharks tragic all my life too..... It was worth the wait :)

Sheepdog

davetherave's picture
davetherave's picture
davetherave commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 11:44am

Indeed it was SD indeed it was. People should be encouraged to run for public office but those positions should also not have absurd benefits compared to those who work for them. Also not monopolised by factions. Would like to be more positive but only one word truly comes to mind about it-rort.

davetherave

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 12:16pm

I dont know how you stop "factions", Dave..... There's nothing stopping a bunch of like minded people to vote as a block.... Perhaps more of a spotlight on these "blocks" would be of benefit... "Transparency".....
What concerns me more is Floyds pet hate - Lobbyists.....

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 1:06pm

Lobbyists have killed the democracy we all think of when we all talk about democracy.

Doubt it? Read ...... Supercapitalism: The Transformation of Business, Democracy, and Everyday Life by Robert B. Reich

Its government solely for capital these days. What democracy back? than ban all lobbyists and place serve restrictions on political donations.

In the age of computerisation we should have real-time information on all political donations AND a day by day list of what lobbyists each member of parliament meets with.

I understand Australia has some of the weakest laws dealing with political donations in the world. Question is why?

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 2:26pm

Just make all donations public, from $1 up..... Instantly uploaded in a "financial supporters page" on every party website.... Donations from Australian tax payers only.

The other option is to make party membership free... You can only be a member of one party. Free membership may encourage more participation. Parties are then financed by us the taxpayer ( they blow our taxes on ridiculous things like pink bats and house price enquiries, so just stop that crap, and there's be money for it).. The amount of funding depends on membership size.
Floyd.... You can ban lobbyists..... But I'm sure it will still happen.... So I'd go the other way.... I'd have a minister of lobbying..... All lobbying must go through that ministry and be totally transparent, similar to how tenders must be advertized.... Any lobbying outside of this ministry is a criminal offence with a minimum of 10 years jail for both the lobbyist and politician concerned.

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 3:06pm

The Minister for Lobbyist ... WTF.

You channelling Monty Python or Yes Minister on NYE Sheepy? .... Nice Work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkpS-yBj7gY

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 3:32pm

Floyd will be happy to know lobbyists are trump's pet hate too!

davetherave's picture
davetherave's picture
davetherave commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 3:38pm

Transparency is the word. All lobbyists to donate armour and fight till flesh wound and must be called Brian of the jpf. In all seriousness our children need to be educated thoroughly in politics and govt to create better understanding and participation. To succeed we have to create a culture of respect not ridicule.

davetherave

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 4:10pm

To succeed we have to create a culture of respect not ridicule.

You're spot on there daverave

Adersarial politics has had its day.

One just has to watch question time to see what a joke the present system has become. Both sides are pathetic. The questions from their own side are an insult to anyone's intelligence. It's hard to imagine a better way to waste taxpayers money than the charade that is the current parliment question time.

This patheticness filters down into the media coverage which has become so biased and partisan it's ridiculous.

Media has become a bigger parasite on the community than the self serving politicians. It's about time media went back to at least trying to be objective. I'm sure most journalists still go to university and learn how to present an academic argument that looks at both sidrs of any issue. The journalist oathe needs to be policed with real repucussions like sheepdog is suggesting for politicians.

Media has always been biased, but the internet has made this bias reprehensible....and a whole heap of other synonyms from the internet...note no. 1
deplorable, disgraceful, discreditable, despicable, blameworthy, culpable, wrong, bad, shameful, dishonorable, objectionable, opprobrious, repugnant, inexcusable, unforgivable, indefensible, unjustifiable

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 4:21pm

Spykan says " Floyd will be happy to know lobbyists are trump's pet hate too!"

Really, Trump has lobby politicians all his life for commercial advantage. It would be a mistake to ever ever believe a word from his mouth.

Please, I have zero respect (sorry Dave) for Trump coz respect is earned not given, and absolutely everything I have heard of that man-child tells me the sooner we see the back of him the better ....... further, while I do ridicule self-obsessed imbeciles like Trump satire is were the action is; good satire bites deep and has the potential to politically wound.

A Keating quote comes to mind: "change the government and you change the country". Trump will change America, for the worse, at best. I am seriously worried he will fuck the world up.

davetherave's picture
davetherave's picture
davetherave commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 4:55pm

The world is already a fuckup. Millions are starving and homeless. More is spent on weapons than education sanitation and proper habitation combined. Yet we give it lip service. Silly bunts fight each other over a belief of a thing they have no fucking clue about. Tears for fears had it in a nutshell.

davetherave

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 5:24pm

"Really, Trump has lobby politicians all his life for commercial advantage. "

Yep, and he ridicules the system that allows it, vehemently. He straight out said he bought the clintons when they were in power, and the other side too when they were there.

Love him or hate him, some of the things he raises are good. I have real concerns too floyd. Like most people, I was flat out scared before the election. But now I think he's shown he's not crazy, a loose cannon yes, but not crazy.

I actually think his intentions are good, misguided perhaps, but good, which goes a long way.

The other sides intentions became corrupted. Their intentions were bad, not intentionally, but blinded by an ideology that they thought justified invasion of the world with what they thought were suitable leaders for good, marketed as spreading democracy.

Experience showed, time and time again, this just does not work. Countries need to sort their own shit, and select their own leaders.

Saudi cosiness, influence and complicity did not serve the west well. Even bernie was saying that.

I'm no full believer, and I agree, the sooner trump's gone the better, but objectively I can only see that the world has become better since his election....for the time being...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 5:42pm

And the left's desperate clinging to this 'fake news' idea is beyond a joke. It really is becoming embarrassing and painful to watch, like watching the creature that eats itself

One would think they'd be trying to cling on to the sliver of credibility they have left, but bias is a corrupting and debilitating factor no matter how high you believe your moral ground to be

http://www.businessinsider.co.id/fake-news-left-liberal-problem-2016-12/...

davetherave's picture
davetherave's picture
davetherave commented Saturday, 31 Dec 2016 at 6:29pm

Thank god for cronulla and the western bulldogs. Made the year memorable. Now we look forward to Barnaby Pauline Malcolm Tony and Donald Vladimir and CO. Can't wait. Just can't wait. All the best for 2017.

davetherave