What's what?

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Shatner'sBassoon started the topic in Friday, 6 Nov 2015 at 7:48pm

AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.

LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Monday, 29 Feb 2016 at 12:59pm

gotta agree rees0

aussie's expectations are too high, the rest of the world dreans of buying a unit, aussies expect to buy a house regardless of circumstances. but at the same time, the growth in desirable places is over the top and disappointing for people that grow up in an area and see it slip beyond their means in the relatively short time it takes to build a career.

I don't believe doom and gloom about a big bubble, australia is unique in its situation, it will more than likely sit stagnant for a long period as it did leading up to Howard's FHOG, mining boom, labor good policies fruition perfect storm. stagnant for a long time means a lot of people losing big at the luxury extremes, coastal, city, beach shacks, hobby farms in fashionable areas. your average punters place won't move much, and even if it does, the market you buy back into has moved down accordingly. it's just the big investors and wealthy suburbs that'll lose, they're the ones so wired into rhis ponzi scheme, hence the scare campaign.

doom and gloom in oz economy is almost inevitable, it was a blind decadent ride through the good times, luckily hard times in oz really aren't that hard, just slower, a much needed slow down a lot of people will probably appreciate

Purplepills's picture
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Purplepills commented Monday, 29 Feb 2016 at 10:05pm

House prices only ever go up eh ReesO have a look at historic prices they once declined for close to 50 years after a gold boom. After the 80's property hang over Gold Coast and the Japanese ring a bell.

I could buy a house for 650K in Sydney a real 10mins from the beach in 2012 now you need around double that it is not feasible compared to income. 3.5 x income is the average income to mortgage however we have 2 people working these days and that skews those figures.

Spain and France and a lot of Europe is very affordable. Your not comparing apple with apples 20 km outside Tokyo you can buy a block of land for $50k You can get ocean view land in Malibu California cheaper than a block in Alice Springs. An apartment in Parramatta is the same cost per sq meter as Hong Kong or Manhattan New York City. It's ridiculous.

I can buy a house for $300K near some of the best reefs in OZ coupla blocks from the beach - this is not the point.

The poorest suburbs in Sydney Campbelltown, blacktown have doubled their median price in two years another government invention howard and rudd's immigration we have had over 2 million they need somewhere to live. 650K Median price.

Looks like a few crew want to sell from the inland of the sunshine coast in Nambour.

There has never been a boom in history without a bust. I will grab the popcorn for this one.

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Monday, 29 Feb 2016 at 10:38pm

Purplepills wrote: An apartment in Parramatta is the same cost per sq meter as Hong Kong or Manhattan New York City. It's ridiculous.

.

http://www.domain.com.au/news/how-sydney-house-prices-compare-with-other...

sydney looks pretty fair price for a modern metropolis in very high demand.

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Monday, 29 Feb 2016 at 10:58pm

@reeso, you mentioned Roxby downs and mining towns have been mentioned but you question 10% drops??

Moranbah down 65% in 3 years
Dysart down 46% over the same time
Perth had its biggest monthly drop on record, market down 3-6%
Karatha, the list goes on. While it might be roses in your world, I'm Sure the guy that bought the investment property in Moranbah was thinking the same thing...good investment, property never goes down. Now he's stuck with an 800,000 dollar property worth 200,000. Imagine copping that with your rent going down from 3-4K to 200 bucks a week trying to service that mortgage, haha. HappyAsS what you'll notice is these trends aren't stagnation, they are definite drops, you will also notice it's not a 1-2 year thing, it's been three years already and it don't look like things are getting better any time soon.

I can't remember going through a recession but I have been through one in which lots of people lost shitloads, it's not particularly noticeable if your not suffering the poor decisions yourself. There is no question we are in another global economic downturn, their is no question markets are and will suffer more, some parts of the property market will crash. indicators point to places like Canada, Australia, China blah blah.

Like Sypkan said booms are followed by busts. It's not doom and gloom, it's a natural phenomenon and we've had our boom, we'll have our bust. Easy money during the mining years, you can still get loans with as low as 5% deposit and they'll throw in a 20k credit card for you. Developers lapped this up, HappyAsS if you read a couple of those articles you'll note constant reference to oversupply. Investors lapped up the easy money too. Home owners lapped it up. The writing was always on the wall.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/realestate/news/property-prices-in-once...
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/29964289/perth-house-prices-hit-b...
http://www.afr.com/real-estate/residential/wa/perth-property-prices-plun...

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Monday, 29 Feb 2016 at 11:17pm

happyasS wrote:
Purplepills wrote: An apartment in Parramatta is the same cost per sq meter as Hong Kong or Manhattan New York City. It's ridiculous.

.

http://www.domain.com.au/news/how-sydney-house-prices-compare-with-other...

sydney looks pretty fair price for a modern metropolis in very high demand.

Ah you're classic happy. You do realise this article is published on a leading real estate site? Do you know what real estate agents do? Of course they are gonna talk up affordability. Of course they are gonna talk up growth/returns.

Read the article mate, although they are trying to spin Sydney as 'affordable', that is complete bullshit. The article is saying that Sydney is affordable compared to other unaffordable cities, it doesn't say Sydney is affordable in any relative sense to you and me. Ask yourself where you would get a million from, who would loan you a million to get into the Sydney market? Work out what the loan repayments are and ask yourself how many people you know would be able to cover that.

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Pookie Magoo commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 12:30am

From a euro point of view the whole property market in Australia is f*cking nuts. The lunatics are running the asylum. It could quite easily go tits up and I know Australia wasn't really affected by the past financial crisis but that doesn't necessarily make it immune to future crisis either. I bought what I could easily afford with choice of paying it off quicker while I can or riding a storm comfortably. But don't listen to me cos I don't know nuffin an I ain't got a job.

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rees0 commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 9:06am

If you bought a house in a mining town during the mining boom you have yourself to blame. Mining in australia has been in decline since i was in primary school according to news/media. So Tim you still have no examples of any major market in decline anywhere close to %10. Everything else in perth has a mining tax on it so im not sure why your suprised real estate is any different. All 4 of your examples are solely dependent on mining with the exception of perth so still no %10....

Well purple theres your 300k houses ive seen 2 b'room units for sale under 200k as you will see they are selling fast so act now or forever complain about been priced out. Perhaps you would like to show some examples of your ocean view land in malibu? That would be in a city centre correct? Because otherwise you would be comparing apples to oranges.

Markets everywhere in this country afordable, in close proximity to city centres,with a shitload of work around. You said so yourself beach houses 300k etc close to surf why are you still talking about western sydney? That doesn't really suit your scenario however, affordable housing surely not! the news presenter said otherwise... I am busiest i have been in 10 years. Will continue to be busy for the next 10 too.

Do you own property purple? If so where? Or is your doom & gloom prophecy wishfull thinking perhaps. The fact people are referencing a hollywood movie and comparing it to australia is laughable, when was the last time you tried to get %95 lvr loan? I tried but still needed 6 months genuine savings, by which time i had the % 10 deposit. Again hardly irresponsible but dont let reality get in the way of a good paranoia.

I think whats portrayed in newspapers and tv is very different to the reality that exists in the market because when i look around i see oppurtunitys galore, see alot of excuses too expensive, too far away etc. But anyone who wannta to work hard and save some money can buy a peoperty in this country something that can't be said for large parts of the world, sometimes its good to be gratefull for what we have here...

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 9:12am

rees0 wrote: If you bought a house in a mining town during the mining boom you have yourself to blame. Mining in australia has been in decline since i was in primary school according to news/media. So Tim you still have no examples of any major market in decline anywhere close to %10. Everything else in perth has a mining tax on it so im not sure why your suprised real estate is any different. All 4 of your examples are solely dependent on mining with the exception of perth so still no %10....

Well purple theres your 300k houses ive seen 2 b'room units for sale under 200k as you will see they are selling fast so act now or forever complain about been priced out. Perhaps you would like to show some examples of your ocean view land in malibu? That would be in a city centre correct? Because otherwise you would be comparing apples to oranges.

Markets everywhere in this country afordable, in close proximity to city centres,with a shitload of work around. You said so yourself beach houses 300k etc close to surf why are you still talking about western sydney? That doesn't really suit your scenario however, affordable housing surely not! the news presenter said otherwise... I am busiest i have been in 10 years. Will continue to be busy for the next 10 too.

Do you own property purple? If so where? Or is your doom & gloom prophecy wishfull thinking perhaps. The fact people are referencing a hollywood movie and comparing it to australia is laughable, when was the last time you tried to get %95 lvr loan? I tried but still needed 6 months genuine savings, by which time i had the % 10 deposit. Again hardly irresponsible but dont let reality get in the way of a good paranoia.

I think whats portrayed in newspapers and tv is very different to the reality that exists in the market because when i look around i see oppurtunitys galore, see alot of excuses too expensive, too far away etc. But anyone who wannta to work hard and save some money can buy a peoperty in this country something that can't be said for large parts of the world, sometimes its good to be gratefull for what we have here...

Lol

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rees0 commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 9:25am

Still no examples tim? Where exactly did you see this %10? Lol....

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 9:59am

ummm, I thought we'd been through this, ok I'll break it down for you so it's a bit easier to understand.

What I said was, there are cities in regional areas that have already experienced more than 10% declines in house prise.....you got that bit right?

Then I gave you a few examples, you could have done some research and informed yourself but you couldn't be fucked. Somehow those example don't count.

So I'll carry on with a look at port city Karratha, "once touted as the engine room of the Australian economy",........wait for it...........down 32%

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/karratha-property-prices-plunge-32-per...

"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors."

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 10:13am

tim foilat wrote: ummm, I thought we'd been through this, ok I'll break it down for you so it's a bit easier to understand.

What I said was, there are cities in regional areas that have already experienced more than 10% declines in house prise.....you got that bit right?

Then I gave you a few examples, you could have done some research and informed yourself but you couldn't be fucked. Somehow those example don't count.

So I'll carry on with a look at port city Karratha, "once touted as the engine room of the Australian economy",........wait for it...........down 32%

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/karratha-property-prices-plunge-32-per...

"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors."

Tim. You've got good comments. But thats dishonest of you. You have gone back and edited your post about the 10% claim. You said cities and some regional areas. Both myself and rees responded to that claim.

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tim foilat commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 10:45am

@Happyass...10% drops in regional areas and in some cities is still there in my post uneditted, Karratha is a city. I edited my post to be less rude to you, it had a line saying that your idea of sidewards correction was incorrect and made no sense, I'd read your post wrong and I corrected my post, no conspiracy mate. My post now says the same as the previous that 10% drops are already happening, it was a response to you saying you foresee the possibility of 10% drop in house prices in the future.

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 10:54am

Bullshit. Why edit a post hours later after I had already responded. To be kinder to me? Dont feed me that shit. You know what you said. You said cities and some regional areas. It now reads different. You are the only conspiracy theorist Tim.

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 11:15am

Is Karratha a city? I didn't edit to be kinder to you, I edited to be less rude and to correct my error in reading your post. Are you still trying to dispute there are cities and regional areas that have seen 10% plus drops in housing prices? That was the essence of the contention was it not?

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rees0 commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 12:00pm

Yet the graph in that article clearly states %.8 growth for the enitre wa regional area. Not by any means huge but still growth... Even with the falls in those mining towns?. Whos been selective with thier information? The point im trying to make is it that housing is still very affordable. If your willing to work and live a little bit further away. i dont see how that has anything to do with my mental state or bias?
The fact you need to edit your posts says more about your bias then mine tim...

Cities in my opinion does not include regional areas and that was my original interpretation but seeing as you edited your post i can't even be sure that i misread it.

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 12:17pm

lol. ok. you came back a day later to edit a post when other people had already read. your change wasn't just a typo or spelling or removing foul words. you admit to deleting a whole paragraph about the definition of sideways correction that was in response to my post.

its a forum tim, not a piece of legislation....you don't gotta edit anything.

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 12:22pm

I'm not being selective at all Reeso, I've never claimed that the housing market was down across Australia. We were talking about these areas as canaries for the broader market. They are also good examples of a boom/bust scenario, their obvious downturns which are easy to understand.

My post always said cities it always said regional areas, never was there any mention of capital cities if that's your interpretation. Cities are cities of course they can be in regional areas.

I agree totally that there are affordable areas in the housing market, we were discussing the affordability of Sydney. Do you think the Sydney housing market is affordable to the average wage earner?

Confirmation bias is something that applies to all of us, I pointed it out because of the way you support your posts. You tend to dismiss evidence supplied in broard data sets but you claim that your own personal, single experience is the actual truth. That's an example of confirmation bias.

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rees0 commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 12:30pm

Like when you posted the link about karattha pointing to a %36 downfall in property prices to support your theory of falling real estate, yet conviently ignored the graph in the very same article that goes on to explain that "regional" ie encompassing all regional areas/cities, has actually had growth...

Would that be confirmation bias or just hypocricy?

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 12:47pm

not sure where I said that exactly but yeah, that would be confirmation bias.

talkingturkey's picture
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talkingturkey commented Wednesday, 2 Mar 2016 at 3:18pm

Forget factoids & confirmation biases & informed anecdotes & some such shit, I want gossip and juicy rumours, even paranoiac conspiracy theories. Speaking of which...

I always assumed the land directly behind Margs Point and the rivermouth area was crown land or something. I heard from a mate who was talking to some business-type at a shindig the other week that in fact, his family has owned it for generations. Until recently. They have now sold it for tens of millions to a big developer round them parts with a name similar to 'slatternly'.

"This is the end, beautiful friend
This is the end, my only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes, again"

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floyd commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 3:29pm

the end ... some trip

happyasS's picture
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happyasS commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 4:28pm

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/realestate/news/sydney-home-affordabili...

housing affordability crisis....or people just too picky about living in detached houses.

is the great Australian dream over

Shatner'sBassoon's picture
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Shatner'sBassoon commented Tuesday, 1 Mar 2016 at 5:18pm

Oi TT Boy, are you for real?! Farrk!

What's with this region?

There's new housing developments at Vasse, Dunsborough, Cowie (both sides of the road), Gracetown, Margs (Brookfield connecting to Rapids Landing...stuff out on Caves, off Wallcliffe...the other side of the road at Gnarabup), Witchy, even Karridale!

Who are these people? Where are they all gonna work?! More importantly, where are they all gonna fucken surf????

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Wednesday, 2 Mar 2016 at 10:41am
sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 2 Mar 2016 at 11:04am

all this anti turnball sentiment developing as the messiah looks more and more like a deer in the head lights

I loathe to admit it as labor are still a bit of a bloody shambles but they're actually looking like they might have a chance

a ballsy negative gearing policy, billy shorton charisma finally fires up, and two blackfellas brought inro the fold all in one week!!

there's hope for oz yet

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Purplepills commented Wednesday, 2 Mar 2016 at 6:09pm

Yeah Rees0 bought and sold property ATM none shorting CBA from the high 90's top at 10 x leverage. And a certain mortgage insurance company.

Easier in the big cities mate pre approved the other day 5% lvr - they guy on 60 minutes Jonathan Tepper posed as a gay couple and visited 20 sydney banks and brokers all willing on combined income of 125K
Since Basel 3 the banks have been told to tighten lending as they were irresponsible. If you have equity they will lend with no LVR just made up equity all paper pal. 40% of all loans are interest free no payment of principle just banking on future price rises - I've heard the sprukier's before doubles every 7 years never goes down blah blah - I already said it won't effect you if you are in for the 25year mortgage but they probably convinced you into 30 year you should ride it out, you alway need a roof over your head.
This is banking data ANZ how many people have sold at a loss - when you take into account stamp duty, mortgage insurance, interest payments, strata fees, council fees, real estate agent fees, maintenance ect...
ect...

Not all roses. I want my kids to be able to afford a home somewhere they are able to get work plain and simple. Homes should not be speculative vehicles. Nor should education - don't start me on the governments attitude to students as a commodity.

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Monday, 7 Mar 2016 at 12:01pm
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happyasS commented Monday, 7 Mar 2016 at 5:50pm

Purplepills wrote:
Not all roses. I want my kids to be able to afford a home somewhere they are able to get work plain and simple. Homes should not be speculative vehicles. Nor should education - don't start me on the governments attitude to students as a commodity.

homes should not but investments always will. its the nature of investment. lots of talk about negative gearing but little about howards capital gains discount. and taking it one step further why your family home is capital gains tax exempt? so you live in a home, its price goes up through productive action of your own, then you sell it and get ALL of the money?

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mikehunt207 commented Tuesday, 8 Mar 2016 at 1:19am

Thats more bad news TT. Every long weekend is the most crowded ever In Margs these days. The place is turing into Mandurah before our very eyes. Been a spate of thefts from cars at the beach, there was 30 guys surfing windy 6ft boat ramp this morning, fuckwit driving going on everywhere. headlong into the abyss for this place

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mikehunt207 commented Tuesday, 8 Mar 2016 at 1:21am

fuck fuck fuck fuck

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batfink commented Tuesday, 8 Mar 2016 at 10:19am

Michael West column in yesterday's SMH, tried to find a link but not on its website yet (WTF)

Anyways, a good story about how the governments, going back to Rudd, have been sitting on legislation that will prevent, or at least, make very difficult, the practice of money laundering through real estate.

I suspect that there are very few people who understand just how corrupt the entire system is, I think I only have a fleeting glimpse of understanding.

Michael West, for those who aren't familiar, is the best business journalist in Australia by a country mile.

I support other comments here that the capital gains concession, introduced by that idiot Costello, has been a very large part in the real estate problem.

For those who think you can't lose in property, hock yourself up to your eyeballs, go for it.

It's never been a more exciting time to risk your life's work for the possibility of a few dollars somewhere down the track, if everything goes right, and you're lucky, and don't lose your job, or get sick.

Reeso, your comments about tin's property prices being related to mining towns is fair enough (although he came back with Karratha) but you have assumed that there won't be some other crisis, that it will all be just the miners.

I suspect that if the unemployment rate gets up towards 8% that the property market starts a rapid decline. That's not likely to happen, but for those of us who have been in the workforce since 1980, 8% is better than a large part of our working life. Shit could be coming at us from all directions, and any one of those flinging pieces could hit the real estate market, indirectly, and the fall could be precipitous.

It is held aloft by about half a dozen once in a century factors. Only a couple of things need to go wrong and there will be tears, for years.

And yes, currently own a house in an expensive seaside suburb, and a holiday house in an expensive seaside suburb. I want the house prices to drop, this is unfair on my kids, and everyone else's, just more baby boomer largesse basically.

I liked this too, but Richard Cooke only got half the story.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2016/march/1456750800/richard-cooke/...

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Wednesday, 9 Mar 2016 at 12:07pm
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 9 Mar 2016 at 1:16pm

interesting article there batfink, combined with the guardian one, and others, it appears we're on the verge of generational civil war in australia, not to mention a class war internationally looking at the ttrump articles running at the guardian.

fair enough too, the dudes running the show have certainly subscribed to the old addage look after number 1. the boomers enjoyed the freedoms of the cultural revolution where anything goes, and now they're micro managing the partying of their children. seriously how can it be, in a city like sydney, that you cannot buy a straight scotch after midnight? and you cannot look for a new nightclub at 1.30am!! there was a period not that long ago where many didnt go out til 1.00am. but this really is the tip of the (skewed) 'evidence based' baby boomer implemented nanny state iceberg, that preserves their spaces and interests and says fuck you to anybody else.

looking forward to the civil war, boomers are a bunch of boring smug fucks who really believe their perspective is the truth. lighten up morons and share the wealth, or it may slip out of your hands involuntarily.

the revolution will not be televised.

but there may be hints on the internet

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Shatner'sBassoon commented Wednesday, 9 Mar 2016 at 2:23pm
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sypkan commented Wednesday, 9 Mar 2016 at 6:45pm

interesting article there too shatner. except the author barely acknowledges that the left has embraced neo liberalism / free trade just as much as the torys, and that is why we're in this fucked up mess we're in now.

the establishment ignored trump thinking he'll go away, but he's just gone from strength to strength. so much so even the guardian has conceeded he may have more to offer than fear and bigotry. the 'professional class' from both sides are so wrapped up in the righteousness and impotance of themselves, they've all totally missed the little groundswell arising below them, while they just continue to belittle critics and label them racists, there may just be more going on than they have noticed.

doesn't matter which country US, UK or OZ, both sides have had the same agenda, one side calls it 'neo liberalism', the other calls it ' the third way'. whatever the label, they've been so blind and dismissive to other peoples views they've fucked up. the trump phenomenon is a nasty beast they're going to have to deal with. but he's got some good stuff to offer, thankfully there's sanders and corbyn also saying the same things. people have had enough of the oligarchy invading countries, having seedy saudi deals etc., and doing 'whatever it takes' to maintain the status quo. and unfortunately clinton is part of that machine. they brought all this on themselves. ...sucked in

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-am...

"Trade is an issue that polarizes Americans by socio-economic status. To the professional class, which encompasses the vast majority of our media figures, economists, Washington officials and Democratic powerbrokers, what they call “free trade” is something so obviously good and noble it doesn’t require explanation or inquiry or even thought. Republican and Democratic leaders alike agree on this, and no amount of facts can move them from their Econ 101 dream."

"Left parties the world over were founded to advance the fortunes of working people. But our left party in America – one of our two monopoly parties – chose long ago to turn its back on these people’s concerns, making itself instead into the tribune of the enlightened professional class, a “creative class” that makes innovative things like derivative securities and smartphone apps. The working people that the party used to care about, Democrats figured, had nowhere else to go, in the famous Clinton-era expression. The party just didn’t need to listen to them any longer."

a sad state of affairs, some saw it coming a long time ago, even academics, but they weren't listened to either. people, society needs a greater purpose than pleasing the bean counters. this article is a little dated but explains where the left lost it's way.

http://evatt.org.au/papers/social-democracy-consumer-capitalism.html

viva le revolution

talkingturkey's picture
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talkingturkey commented Wednesday, 9 Mar 2016 at 7:44pm

Mate, Sanders is waaaaaay removed from Trump. He's miles away from Clinton. Trump is channeling the same shit, and garnering the same dumb-ass supporters, as our very own billionaire buffoon, Clive Palmer did. 'Cept Trump may get the keys to the whole dealership. Imagine Clive as PM?!

Hang on, we did have Tones...

Anyway, I liked this little exchange on an ABC drum article comment thread between a Trump-chump and an unnamed dude (That I heartily endorse and concur with):

"Obama is Trumps greatest political asset.

Many Americans have had it up to the back teeth with Obama's political correctness , his 'dancing with enemies' while neglecting long term allies, along with traditional American values with around 60% of voters dissatisfied with the current direction of the country.

They see Trump as an escape."

"Some people see drugs, masturbation, and Disneyland the same way.

I like your logic - anyone who can package-up all three is bound to be able to sell tickets to somebody."

Who's buying, comrades?

tim foilat's picture
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tim foilat commented Wednesday, 9 Mar 2016 at 9:19pm

"All past oligarchies have fallen from power either because they ossified or because they grew soft.  Either they became stupid and arrogant, failed to adjust themselves to changing circumstances, and were overthrown; or they became liberal and cowardly, made concessions when they should have used force, and once again were overthrown. ... It is in the ranks of the Party, and above all the Inner Party, that the true war enthusiasm is found. ... If human equality is to be for ever averted -- if the High, as we have called them, are to keep their places permanently -- then the prevailing mental condition must be controlled insanity."
"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. ... We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it.  Power is not a means, it is an end.  ... How does one man assert his power over another ... By making him suffer.  Obedience is not enough.  Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own?  Power is inflicting pain and humiliation.  ... A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. ... If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
 
-- Orwell  1984

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Shatner'sBassoon's picture
Shatner'sBassoon commented Thursday, 10 Mar 2016 at 2:44pm

Funny, I just finished re-reading Orwell's THE LION AND THE UNICORN: SOCIALISM AND THE ENGLISH GENIUS. That guy was beyond prescient!

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/lion_and_the_unicorn/

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Sunday, 13 Mar 2016 at 10:21pm

For those living in Sydney who enjoy freedom;

https://www.facebook.com/events/654698511299633/

Sheepdog

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 7:58am

Sheepdog wrote: For those living in Sydney who enjoy freedom;

https://www.facebook.com/events/654698511299633/

Back to Qld in the 1970s!

talkingturkey's picture
talkingturkey's picture
talkingturkey commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 9:13am

Or WA now.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 10:07am

and when the protestor gets injured when specialist people are brought in to uncover how they actually locked their arm inside a barrel full of concrete?

this law is nothing to do with fucking bike locks. that was old tactics.

tonybarber's picture
tonybarber's picture
tonybarber commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 10:54am

The proposed Baird amendments are aimed at 'lock ons' and devices used to disrupt CSG mining operations. The right to protest has not changed. The question is - if a company has a legal right to conduct its business and satisfied the required rules and regulations then it seems fair to allow it to continue. If there is opposition to it then should the business be allowed to continue without physical disruption from protesters or anyone who opposes that business. Maybe the protest should be aimed at the approving authorities.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 11:19am

like always, it will be at the discretion of the judge of the appropriate penalty. those that use nothing but a bike lock will never get imprisoned. those that cause massive disruption, delay, major cost, and potentially injury themselves or others should. think WA deadbeat from last year who concretes her car to the ground in a state forest.

why take protest action upon the authorities when you can take the law into your own hands.

two wrongs don't make a right

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 11:49am

Barber and happy.... So you are both saying that when 90% of a rural community say NO to the suit wearers in capital city allowing a multi national to frack in their region, when laws made in the last few years allow companies the right to jump on farmers land, that these locals can't use whatever means to protest and stick it up these fucktards who no longer represent the voters but instead represent big business?

No wonder this country is fucked.

Sheepdog

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 12:27pm

We all know the mining companies are paying off the political parties to get the laws they want. Why would anyone think the miners, politicians and these particular laws should be respected?

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 1:06pm

then vote green (farmers wont like that), or start your own party. lobby for change using a strategic approach. going batshit and chaining yourself to a concrete filled car is dumb and achieves nothing. we already knew the tree-hugger was against it and so what did locking him/herself up actually achieve. it just wastes everyones time. to say that the mining laws are bad because arose out of liberal / labor rule is just conceding.

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 1:11pm

When the law is corrupt / when the politician is corrupt / when the company is corrupt (and they all are) then people have every legal and moral right and obligation to protest and disrupt.

Tones why do you think Trump is so big in the land of the free? coz the people are red hot angry at the political process and politicians not representing them but rather big business and their lobbyists.

If a CSG project was down the road from me well I would be doing everything possible to halt it just like we did in down on the Franklin all those years ago.

floyd's picture
floyd's picture
floyd commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 1:16pm

happyasS wrote: then vote green (farmers wont like that), or start your own party. lobby for change using a strategic approach. going batshit and chaining yourself to a concrete filled car is dumb and achieves nothing. we already knew the tree-hugger was against it and so what did locking him/herself up actually achieve. it just wastes everyones time. to say that the mining laws are bad because arose out of liberal / labor rule is just conceding.

For the life of me I don't understand why farmers don't vote green, farmers should be green by nature and the nationals are so corrupt ... last 3 leaders of that party now work for mining companies .... talking about a total conflict of interest ..... corrupt corrupt corrupt nationals ......... only area on board with the nationals is FNQ = say no more, can I hear banjo music yokel?

tonybarber's picture
tonybarber's picture
tonybarber commented Monday, 14 Mar 2016 at 1:15pm

Heh, SD, so you reckon that 90% of farmers are against mining ? Doubt it, they make good money from it in most cases. Tony Windsor made a few bob. There was a query from farmers when some were paid more than others for mining access. There are controls on CSG in NSW. Sure some people don't like it and are suspicious of the process.
Regardless, people can protest and can make a difference in a fair way. Maybe look at AGL pulling out of Gloucester in CSG.