Who's gunna win Mother Nature or Father Greed?

Sure I want action, but why should I foot the bill for carbon when I was raised to be conscious of my impact on the environment and do my best to live accordingly. It seems the majority just blaze away and use up as much as they want without giving it a second thought.

While we are all paying the same rate regardless of usage there is no incentive to reduce our consumption.

Why can't there be a tiered system for energy charges in a similar way that our personal income tax system works, i.e if you use a base amount charge is at the base rate, go above that base amount and the rate goes up by a factor and so on. The higher rates will cover the carbon tax and it won't take long to rein in the energy gluttons when they realise they are paying triple the rate of everyone else.

I'm not totally certain but I'm sure the Carbon Tax will only affect the big industries as it's a per/ton tax.

Normal tax payers won't see this tax, and I think there's been a promise that these costs won't be passed down the line to electricity and gas bills.

The proposed starting price around $20 or so is too small in my opinion and won't encourage industries to cut back on emissions or change to renewable technologies, I feel it needs to be more towards the $100 mark to make any real impact.

And you really believe the costs won't be passed on to consumers? It will affect us all, or why else would the Govt be promising compensation to low income earners. I want whatever you are taking....

Just to clarify,

Yes, I think we should be doing something, but this is a global problem. We need global commitment, rather then penalising business in Australia only. It is already hard enough to remain comeptitive when we have low import tarifs and a high aussie peso.

Yeah you're probably right, but there doesn't seem to be any other way to get this country moving towards renewable energies.

Maybe the government should start to make a big push in this direction offering incentives for companies to set up in the industry, but seeing as they just took back the rebate offered for solar panel installations it seems like we're going backwards.

Its funny how the people most opposed to the carbon tax are high income earners who have a greater capacity to afford it(your a doctor or something evo62, right?). Most lower income earners i know(myself included) seem more willing to make a sacrifice for the future of our country and children! The fact is we are among the highest emmiters of carbon per head of population in the world. We are also the wealthiest. If we cant make an effort how can we expect poorer countries too? Countries like China produce more emmisions but have 50x the population as us! If we develop alternative energy technologies one day we could sell this technology to countries like China and India!

LOL, China is the master of reverse engineering, we will develope it and they will just manufacture it at a price cheaper then we can and put a different sticker on it. What good will all the money spent on R & D do us?

I am not opposed to the carbon tax, I think it is necessary. My issues are
1) I think the implementation is likely to be a disaster, if the track record of the solar panels, insulation scheme and school building scheme is considered. Sadly, we have poor leadership and populist politics at present, it will be a struggle to get anything worthwhile with a minority government regardless of the party. I just don't have confidence in the Government to deliver a worthwhile program.
2) the majority of my hard earned $ will go to more beaurocrats and more public servants to monitor the scheme. I have a mate in Allconnex who earns $120k and clocks off to go surfing at 3pm....
3) Unless we go nuclear we are just chasing our tails with power consumption. Much like the people buying Prius' to save the environment. Save some CO2 emissions from your old car by buying a new one that the manufacturing process used far more to produce it...
4) Extremely poor timing with global economic difficulties to be implementing a initiative that will make Australia even more uncompetitive to conduct business in.

Its a cop-out to say R&D is a waste of money because China will just steal our ideas! China has human capital but is still catching up when it comes to ideas(R&D). I worked with a team of engineers back in the 90's on a plastic extrusion process. A local factory was producing product but there was world wide interest. They set a factory up in China and the family of the Australian who invented and patented the process continue to receive royalties for every metre of product produced.

If its not viable to produce new energy technoligies in Australia due to labour costs, then manufacture them offshore in places like China but retain the royalties!

We cant just keep digging holes in the ground forever. One day our resources will run out. If we dont start positioning ourselves as a smart country we will be well and truly left behind when developing countries catch up to us in the smarts department!

It seems most people dont really understand exactly what a carbon tax is trying to achieve!

I think its to encourage energy producers to develop alternative/renewable energy techniques by making current methods less profitable. The problem is people cant afford huge rises in energy due to the costs of living these days!

The obsene rise in house prices during the Howard years means most of our weekly pay packets goes to mortgage/rent payments. Howard really was the best thing that ever happened for wealthty investers, banks, and big business!

Prepare to be screwed further when Abbott gets in, as appears increasingly likely!

I do belive climate change is real but who's to say it is unnatural. It has been going on for millions of years. And now we have decided to try to stop it? While switching to 'green' energy might make our concious feel good inside. Solar panels aren't made out of thin air are they? Mined like everything else. Do you think a solar panel mine is operating in an energy efficient way? The carbon tax is just a way of the current government to recoup money's lost through the GFC. No environmental ethics at all. And businesses will then directly pass the price onto us or else they will just move overseas. Maybe in 20-30yrs science will tell us we were stupid for making wind farms and solar panels(that is their expiry date) and we should be using soething else. Who knows? I smell a conspiracy

Climate change is real & natural,a rollercoster ride between warm & cold climates.
Global Warming is the man made Co2 warming trend imposed upon that natural cycle of climate.
Warm cycles will be warmer,cold cycles warmer than they otherwise would have been.

The words "Climate Change" are there to muddy the waters,to confuse the public.
We can do nothing about climate change short of changing the tilt & variations in orbital shape of the Earth & variations in output from the Sun.

We can do something about Global Warming.Reduce Co2=less warming of the atmosphere & oceans. Warmer atmosphere & ocean=more water vapor,the most potent greenhouse gas,enhancing the warming effect of increased Co2.
As an added bonus less Co2=less acidification of the Earths largest carbon sink,the oceans.An acidic ocean inhibits the ability of marine animals to form calcium carbonate shells,a very dangerous thing for the food chain.

Reject these spin words "Climate Change"
Global Warming is the danger.

There was an interesting discussion on this subject last night on Q&A. Both sides of the political divide put their case forward and i must say Penny Wong put forward a more genuine and convincing argument. Im looking forward to hearing on Sunday what the government has planned when they release the carbon tax policy. This may help us all to clarify the spin from the reality of life with a carbon tax!

Yes the science is settled.Goverments spent over 100 billion dollars trying to get scientists to link global warming to man and failed so they then decided to get computer technicians to produce computer generated models were they put in only man made factors which can contribute to global warming so they could come up with findings to justify a way to bring in a trillion dollar industrie in the way of a carbon tax or emission trading scheme.
The whole science has been corrupted and scientists bullied into manipulating there findings to fit the agenda.
Then they stiffle and discredit any person who has the hide to question otherwise.If you can't see the biased representation to oneside of the story by media then you are walking around with your head in the sand.
I have said it before this is the biggest con outside of religion.

Great to hear the government have included $10 billion to go towards the development of renewable energy (through the Clean Energy Finance Corporation) in yesterdays Carbon Tax policy announcement!

This will start to put Australia on the front foot when it comes to taking advantage of new opportunities created by the increasing demand for renewable energy.

You could encourage your five kids to get into this new industry nick3 rather than being black lung coal miners!

Some feel good for poor old Nick.

Don't worry about me spongebob.I am more concerned about how you sleep at night knowing this world is about to be consumed by fire and brine stone.
Yorksurfer do not knock the industrie that has provided Australians with so much economic stabability you ignorant fool.
If you are lucky my kids might give your kids a job.But I am pretty sure if you have kids then they will have the same attitude as yourself and want to rely on government hand out just like a socialist government wants.
By the way the title of the topic relates to the Labor goverment(Father Greed) as the mother nature refers to the natural occurrence of climate change.

Ouch! I am stung by your comments nick3! You seem all to willing to abuse those that oppose your views! Or even threats of violence like you did to His Royal Highness Big Wayne on a previous thread on this subject.

You make alot of assumptions in your above comment but for the record im an Engineer and have worked in the mining industry, as well as defence, automotive, and others. Mining is a crappy job that pays well. I think working on developing renewable energies would be an exciting, dynamic and fulfilling career. I am however confident in the future of mining in Australia.

As for your nasty comments on welfare recipients you sound almost jealous of them! Maybe you need a stint on the dole to understand more about the struggles those people face. You would also learn to survive on alot less $$. It might even help you to work out how to live with the carbon tax!

One things for sure you better get used to it because, like the GST, once these things come in they never get repealed. Even if labour lose the next election!

I am for this new tax which in a few years will become an ETS. Its a smart move which targets the big polluters and supports growth in cleantech whilst buffering the average punter against any price hikes.

you can watch this 2 minute vid here to get an understanding

alternatively, here are some key points to consider:

- polluters have been polluting for free and have thus had higher profit margins, to the detriment of all of us (wikipedia: Tragedy of the Commons). this plan will now charge them.

- the money made from this will essentially be used in 3 key ways:
(1) it will be used to buffer the average punter from any price hikes by polluters. treasury forecasting and nearly 70% of economists say this should work and that any rise in CPI will be less than 1%. Which in laymans terms, is sweet-fuck-all. Any massive jumps in expenditure for your household budget won't be because of the carbon tax, but either from other factors or companies trying to use the carbon tax as a justification to get more coin out of you. The govt has thrown more resources (not enough IMO) at the ACCC to combat this dodgy behaviour.

(2) a few billion dollars is getting put aside for investing in renewable energy source technologies. this is a very smart move and one that should've been done years ago. australian's have produced a huge chunk of the worlds leading cleantechnologies yet due to lack of investment and govt support here (especially Howard) it all went overseas and is now being used by other countries who've recognised the benefits of being first movers. That is, by not only creating the technologies here but creating a system whereby the proprietors of such cleantech choose to stay here and develop manufacturing plants and setup industries etc etc it gives Australia a competitive edge and allows us to make a stack more coin by exporting the technology OS.

For example, the Governator realised that California is one of the worlds richest economies in part because of all the I.T. industries based there (especially Silicon Valley). So, he made the state a really attractively place for cleantech to establish and lo-and-behold, they came and setup a growing industry. China is doing the same, and the Chinese are very shrewd business folk and only make business decisions that they know will bring in lots of coin. It will do us well to pay attention to what they're doing. The same goes for zee Germans.

(3) another portion of the money will go towards shielding certain trade exposed industries, like ore smelters (who's pollution is upstream, that is, they dont create any at the factory but use a shiteload of electricity), from the impacts of tax. the idea being that right now, cleantech just doesnt exist on a scale to give them the juice they need to run their manufacturing plants, nor is it at a price-competitive stage yet. so the govt will help those industries stay here until the renewable energy sector can give them the juice they need and everything will be hunky dory.

- the tax will change to an ETS. everybody with a basic understanding of economics and free-market principles understands that this is by far the best way to instigate change in a free-market economy that not only rewards those businesses who are smart enough and helps the consumer get what they need for the best possible price :)

and for any of the haters out there....may I ask where u get your info from? if you're just getting it from Mr Abbott and people of his ilk then you are being misled and lied to.

try reading opinions from each side of the fence, you'll probably be surprised who is in favour of this new tax :) here is a good place to start http://planetark.org/wen/62577

also important to note, is that Tony Abbot's "direct action plan" will actually hurt the average punter a hell of a lot more than this carbon tax. A majority of economists (85%) are against Mr Abbott's plan. Even people (e.g. Malcolm Turnbull) in his own party think his plan his rubbish.

here is the article referencing the economist survey and it even has a few other topics at the end that interesting http://theconversation.edu.au/economists-back-carbon-tax-package-2313

Whilst our total output is small, Australia is the largest GHG polluter per person in the world and therefore we have an obligation to lead the way, as a nation, in global efforts to reduce human-induced global warming. It will be interesting to see what happens at the next Conference of Parties meeting!

All tax (no matter what you do with the money) is immoral. Its just theft.

Mowgli do you really believe that dribble that is trotted out by the Labor government.What they have been saying actually contradicts alot of there own treasurey modeling.
Floyd it's the real science we get our opinion's from not corrupt made up modeling that you dickheads get your information from.

Tax is necessary. If you believe otherwise then look at the toilet Greece has found itself in because of it's lack of enforced tax collection.

e wrote:

Don't worry about me spongebob.I am more concerned about how you sleep at night knowing this world is about to be consumed by fire and brine stone.

Fire & Brimstone nick?
Have you been listening to the Lord?

I caught a nick3 & it was this big!

that dude has to be a cybernetic organism covered in human tissue sent back in time to terminate us.....just look at how googly his eyes are

Floyd - If you have children would you teach them not to hit & not to steal ? (hitting meaning instigating violence not self defense)

Would you tell them that these apply all the time or just some of the time?

Sorry for not reading everyone's posts. Darwinism advocates that humans will die out long before the Sun. And when the sun dies it will expand and absorb the earth.

Man is currently searching for habitable planets to move to. They are too far away to reach. So just enjoy it while you can :)

Lord Goldfish in hot water.