floyd, 1480995708

Blowin ........

I'm now back in Vicco.

Yes, sustainable population growth taking into account required (currently non-existent) protections for quality of life, public infrastructure requirements and importantly environment with the absence of racist overtones (Hanson) is my 3 decade long held view. Hanson is not that messenger, she peddles fear and ignorance.

Like Hanson, Trump is not that smart, he is everything that the words greedy, conman, fucktard can ever possibly mean.

Partially agree on your last point but I would express it in terms of having an independent foreign policy e.g. New Zealand. Further, I would ban foreign OWNERSHIP of land here, regardless of race, you can LEASE it for 99 years but never owe it, and the all too cute ways foreign nationals are able to buy citizenship here via student and investment programs, I'd end that too. But did you notice, Im not singling out Asians or Muslims or the next hated race or creed I'm saying all foreign rationals. You want to own land here then you are an Australian citizen.

Blowin, 1480997842

Floyd - surely the debate on limiting immigration has moved beyond that point already.

With our country made up of 40 percent immigrants and one in every two people having at least one foreign born parent .....haven't we earnt the right to say enough immigration is enough without someone saying that we just don't want foreigners here ?

Of course many people don't want more foreigners here due to a variety of reasons, but the population size and immigration debate can be conducted as a wholey seperate issue without any conflation.

Some dont seem to think that's possible and like to fancy those that don't wish to see Australia overwhelmed by an unmitigated sea of humans as bigots.

Of course, these people are fucking idiots.

Sheepdog, 1481000386

blindboy, 1481002143

Blowin, limiting immigration became a hard sell once people realised that it would also limit economic growth and the growth in value of their real estate. The hip pocket nerve!

tonybarber, 1481003549

You need to note that immigration numbers have not fallen over the last few years, still about 190,000. The last year was the largest number of overseas students whilst the 457 numbers are decreasing. Highest 457 numbers were in 2012-13. Chinese and Indians are the largest migration numbers.

happyasS, 1481005258

"....little allegiance to our society".

any chance of getting you to explain that blowin?

floyd, 1481005819

@sheepdog, totally agree with your comments.
@BB, also agree, immigration is an economic policy. The major political parties and business love it as it locks in an increase in economic demand each year. on economic grounds its lazy policy.
@TB, factually correct but 2012-13 as you know was the height of the mining boom.
@blowin, can't agree that there is widespread support to stop immigration what Hanson is talking about isn't that, she is talking about something else all together.

udo, 1481006484

Adani coal say no 457 visa workers...lets wait and see

theween, 1481011553

Sad to stumble across the same old tired BS on this thread - can't you guys keep the deluded leftist ideology for 'what's what'? Sheepshagger takes the crown as the Top Cretin for his comment 'My bet is on a major upheaval , a massive shift back to the left, the real left..' Please take my bet of $1m against that happening anytime in our lifetimes.

happyasS, 1481013178

i never really got the whole population = gdp = economic growth = living standards equation. we've been had to believe that there is a linear relationship between all of these.

do I have a better std of living than my old folks when they were my age? well if you count size of my house, size of my car, speed of my car, definition of my telly, softness of my bed......then yes.

but if you favour; access to holidays, health, time for fun, time with your kids.......then i am no better off really.

so how does this std of living stuff work again?

what if we had controlled depopulation, with controlled economic recession. gdp per capita stays the same. jobs are retained.

indo-dreaming, 1481014208

I think you might be clutching at straws there Sheepdog, thinking there is a swing away from the right just because of one country's election results.

If you google the topic there is many many articles from the last few weeks saying the exact opposite especially for Europe.

While we still have the emergence and effects of globalisation i don't think it's a trend that's going to go away.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/22/world/europe/europe-right-wing-austria-hungary.html

Recent political history:

Europe= Braxton

USA= Trump

Indonesia= Jokowi (very nationalistic PM, brought back death penalty, previous president SBY was for Indonesia the most left wing president ever)

Philipines= Duterte (again very nationalistic PM, obviously the slaughter of drug dealers etc, makes trump look sane )

I dont really follow much other countries (I'm sure there are more examples both ways)

I think it could easily happen is Australia if we had a half decent leader for a right wing party that wasn't to right wing, a nationalistic but not racist party.

I don't think One nation or Pauline can do it though, many of her policies are just too out there and cant be taken seriously and she is just not smart enough and useless at pubic speaking answering questions especially under pressure etc.

I just wish Dick Smith would have a go, id be out there handing out how to vote flyer's if he ran, he is just perfect candidate and i agree with pretty much everything he says.

talkingturkey, 1481014504

Hmmm. Population control. No immigration 'ins'. Can't afford 'outs' (someone's gotta be here to do shit). Gotta have some kind of birth policy then as well. More or less? Whatever suits.

Sounds familiar...

Is there a country operating like that as we speak?

Cool!

By the by, does Dick have his own brand of cheddar too? I think I've got a brand-name (and it ain't Coon)

sypkan, 1481015378

GDP is a pathetic measure happyas, Clive Hamilton has written lots about it, a better measure is HDI (human development index) which shows much more, but falls apart when countries meet western style opulence, he uses it more as an example that we need a better measure, Bhutan has the happiness index

Steady state economy it's called happyas, greenish and smartypants types have been advocating it for years, the growth model is fucked for all sorts of reasons

What do you think of the religious rallies in indo indod?

Big numbers, big requests,

part of this right movement? A push for conservatism? Good ol racism? Or the push against the corruption clampdown as suggested?

Ya gotta love indo's though, literally hundreds of thousands of rightish , nuttyish religious crazies in the streets and very little trouble, a bunch of mellow cats

sharkman, 1481063223

Sharkman writes "At least it's clear now to see the next few years , as the great right wing experiment!"

Dude, the "right wing experiment" has been in full swing ever since Reagan and Thatcher.... Bush seniors "new world order", GW Bushe's "you're either with us or against us", derivatives of the mid noughties, traditional left party's lurching so far to the right, they don't even look left...... My bet is on a major upheaval , a massive shift back to the left, the real left... Things move at supersonic speeds these days.. And the very first sign has just occured.... People will realize that "immigration" is not a traditional left/right battleground, with the left being unfairly labelled.... People are already starting to see through the charade... the right's "blame them" game is coming to an end, just like the boy who cried wolfowitz..

Far right decimated in Austrian election

The rise of the right and their nationalism , is contrary to globalization > the planet has been on globalization flurry for a decade , now being undone by Brexit/Trump/Hanson/Le Pen , who are presenting decades old models as a return to more local jobs and security , in a world that cannot turn back time , but where western civilizations , want more than they already have , for less!
How much damage can Trump/hanson /LNP etc do ? I think you are right in that there will be a big swing back to the left as the right cannot deliver on there more unskilled jobs , and there is a 4 year chance now to show how much bullshit is coming from the far right , bring it on , lets have a look at how their policies worked or didn't?

AndyM, 1481076132

One of your more concise posts Turkey.

IMO ABC is pretty much finished as a respectable news source and it's a tragedy - possibly even a turning point in Australian culture.

No, Hanson is not the answer but she's potentially a conduit, as is evidenced by people like Dick Smith hitching a ride. The fact is, she's here and she "represents", so we might as well try to address the issues she's raising, even if from a different angle. Pragmatism.

For me, probably the most unsettling part of your post is the last paragraph - we're contestants all right, and I assume you chose that word as opposed to "participants" for very good reasons.

talkingturkey, 1481077501

"Which country you referring to Turkey ?" Use your loaf, Blowie. It should then answer the second part too, comrade.

As for Hanson...fark, if she's the 'answer', what's the fucking question?? And that goes for Trumpy et al...

Actually, Trumpy is just a straight up con-man. Pauline actually believes some of her bollocks. Scratch a fingernail in depth below her veneer though and smell the bigoted stench of fear. Goes for her 'supporters' too. Well, the 'true believers' anyways. Is that you guys on here? Or is she just your 'blunt instrument' to smash, I dunno, something, man...anything. Smash it up. Yew!

Are we getting dumber as a nation or what? Or, at the very least, is that the master-plan? Case in point: What's been going on at the ABC since the new ex-Murdoch, ex-Google boss Michelle Guthrie has taken the reins.

First, she jettisons "Fact-check". Then she jettisons the ability to engage in online comments on The Drum news/opinion site. Then she jettisons transcripts on interviews on Radio National and elsewhere. Then she jettisons "Catalyst" and the science team behind it (with more pending?). Then starts to carve up Radio National and its content. Then she brings in a full Murdoch hack to help her in her total restructure master-plan for the entire ABC.

Sick! The great Aussie public (not us enlightened types on Swellnet, of course) can then get our corporate-sponsored 'news of the world' from Murdoch, Murdoch-lite ABC/SBS (merged), Channel Murdoch, free-to-air 9,7 & 10, or the brave new wacky 'post-truth' 'independent' world on Face-twitter! Info Wars! Breitbart! David muthafuckin' Icke! Loudest kunt wins!

The revolution will not be televised?! Comrades, we're gonna be (unwilling) contestants in the biggest 'reality show' of all! PLEBS, YOU'RE FIRED!

sypkan, 1481078600

So turkeyman, what do you think about the democrats just voting back in pelosi and her team?

The woman is almost eighty and is surrounded by a team of almost octogenarians. They've pretty much run the democrat party into the ground, and they're all back in place

I read the average age of the republicans is like 50, and the average age for the democrats is above 65. The democrats have become the old rich white dude party.

They really have nothing new at all, preaching 1970s idealism to an internet world, even millennials aren't interested. Surely they need to shake up their leadership?

If trump doesn't fuck up majorly, they're commiting us to decades of republicans

sypkan, 1481084641

I'm not fired up turkeyman, and I'm not even giving you shit

I mean the democrats are pushing an idealistic liberalism from the 1970s, because the party is a bunch of old fogeys, caught in an era, imposing their dreams from above

The democrats leadership are so old and tired they re making the party irrelevant

Genuinely interested in your opinion

talkingturkey, 1481084689

"You obviously don't have anyone close to you that relies on their honest labours - blue or white collar - being rewarded with a living wage."

Fark, what a fucken looooong bow to draw... all in order to justify you and your fellow traveller's dumb-ass bigotry?

In fact, it's a fucken load of shit. And farcical.

How's this? I know a boat-load of people "close to me that rely on their honest labours - blue or white collar - being rewarded with a living wage." Family, friends, colleagues, the head in my mirror.

The people I know that admit they voted for Hanson? A small business owner that voted PUP last time. A well-to-do retired couple that hate Turnbull more than they hate Labor. A coupla South African ex-pats with very successful businesses. The best one: A grubby subbie that does cashies and supplements this income, erm, even more dishonestly. Actually that is his income. And he's from the Sunny coast. Figures.

Oh yeah, I can chuck you in the mix too.

Anecdotal, perhaps, but you get that.

As for still not getting it, Blowie?

What? Like Trump's 'working class' voters. Like John Howard's 'battlers'. Like Tony's 'tradies', ya mean?

Yep, I really don't get the turkeys that vote for Thanksgiving. Do you?

And Insippo, what does "preaching 1970s idealism to an internet world" even mean? And how's Trump's "draining the swamp" going again? You fired (up) yet? Buyer's remorse?

talkingturkey, 1481085827

I'll have to have a news trawl about this. Sounds like the dying gasp of the Corporate Democrats going by your precis. Well...

Dunno about that 70s idealistic liberalism schtick though. What, like general equity issues? Jettison the 70s neo-liberalism by all means...

Fark, when it comes to destructive 'back to the future' shite, some of the 'alt-right' crap is scary. Kids don't know shit? Yay! Nazi memes for the yucks. ROFLOL...woeful

Sheepdog, 1481098249

Speaking of ween, get off the fucktard juice, buddy..... As I just supplied a link to a crushing right wing defeat in Austria, , as the right go from one self administered wound to the next here in Oz, BARELY winning the election and now taking us into reccession territory , as people make out that the 4% vote for hanson is the new order, as Trump lost the popular vote and relied on a gerrymander, as Keys scuttles off before the skeletons come out, as the media paint this "alt right" future majority when really all they are is the loudest minority, perhaps you need to seek some form of help in regards to your dellusions.

Blowin...... Riddle me this...... He had a epileptic fit in the first week of May........
Who is he?

indo-dreaming, 1481101787

@ Sypkan

I haven't been following it to much just skimming over it in the Indonesian news i follow, it just seems the full on muslims over reacting just trying to stir up shit.

I think some other things don't help, like Ahok is Chinese Indonesian, Chinese Indonesians in general are not that well liked by the majority of Indonesians, as although they make up a very small percentage of the population they own a massive amount of Indonesian business etc, hence a lot of jealousy and resentment among many Indonesians to them, hence why when there was the 90's riots they were targeted.

Obviously with the muslim majority in Indonesia Christians are also not always liked, kind of in the same way many in Australia don't like muslims, but obviously just like Australia i think the majority are fairly tolerant it's just the minority that is so vocal.

Add to that there is former president SBY and his son who wants to be mayor of Jakarta stirring things up behind the scenes.

There is also a certain demographic that don't think Jokowi is muslim enough or something silly, there has even been times where has been accused of being a closet Christian

Add to that i think there is still many who didn't like the fact Jokowi won, and are still bitter Prabowo lost he was much more pro muslim.

Hopefully they see this mornings earthquake and deaths in Aceh as a sign Allah is not happy with their actions, but i doubt it.

sypkan, 1481118162

Yeh, seems to be a bit of 'all of the above'

Indonesian politics is so confusing, megawati's sister or something got arrested at one protest, then I heard SBY's son is having a go at mayor, as you said. Then, apparently, that the protests are a backlash to the anti corruption stuff of jokowi and ahok. Reporters were saying protestors were paid something like Rp 500k to turn up. That's a lot of money for a day wage! And, that's a lot of money to pay to protect your little corruption scams!

So hard to understand who could be paying such huge amounts of money? I'm guessing most were there by free will but it wouldn't surprise me if some were paid. Then again you hear this about there being paid protestors in every protest in Indonesia. Maybe it's one of those furphys that seem to be regularly put out by establishment types to undermine public protests?

Indonesia is incredibly complex when you scratch the surface, their politics seems un-understandable for outsiders

One thing I know is, Ahok and Jokowi are fucken gutsy, that's for sure

indo-dreaming, 1481146296

"Indonesia is incredibly complex when you scratch the surface, their politics seems un-understandable for outsiders"

Yeah exactly.

talkingturkey, 1481158908

Actually, scratch all that, Blowie. Whatevers, buddy. Keep on truckin'. No, surfin'!

indo-dreaming, 1481161701

High immigration is a problem not because of who the immigrants are it's irrelevant what race or religion they are, it's a problem because of all the issues that it causes.

We only have high immigration rates because it's the easy way out to keep the economy ticking over through growth.

The problems though are many and include.

Environmental = More people means more land for housing and to provide for these people, disposal of waste pollution and much more water and energy is needed and we already have water shortages as it is.

Public infrastructure= More people means we need more public infrastructure but it rarely keeps up, schools, hospitals, public transport, roads, non of these things in my life time have got better even when they keep adding more lanes to freeways say going into the City, but it seems it doesn't matter how many lanes they add it's now worse than ever with congestion.

Quality of life: Apart from the points above, more people effects how we live, more people generally equals higher crime rates, more rules and lack of freedom etc.

The numbers are just not sustainable we are quickly losing many of the reason we are known as the lucky country, and high immigration rates are a big reason why.

http://dicksmithpopulation.com/2016/11/29/letter-of-introduction-by-dick-smith/#more-690

AndyM, 1481162559

What's your solution Turkey?

You're full of mud-slinging and pay outs but you never give a straight opinion or alternative.

talkingturkey, 1481167536

Oh dear. Give 'em enough rope...

talkingturkey, 1481168558

And Andy M, here's a no-brainer just for starters. INVEST IN EDUCATION. AT ALL LEVELS. Pre-Primary. Primary. Secondary. GONSKI! Vocational. Tertiary. This country is STILL playing catch-up from the pork-barrelling profligacy of the miss-spent Howard years.

And we're getting worse under this current iteration.

And while the LNP roll out TURCs and re-introduce ABCCs (with Hanson's help), ask yourselves which sites in WA, mining especially, have the most dodgy 457s, and which ones have the least? And what role a strong union presence plays in that fact.

Politically, WA is a basket-case. Hanson ain't an answer. Maybe Rod????? Ha ha Blurk!

And let's not get started on fucking human-induced climate change...

talkingturkey, 1481178537

Sorry, I respectfully call bullshit right there. And yes, I've got skin in the game. All sorts. From all sorts of sources.

And as for your 'concept' of you as a representative One Nation voter. Which delusional bit you mean? The 'bio' bit? Who are you? Who, who, who, who? And no, please don't write another post like THAT infamous one (you 'high IQ', 'child star', pot grooming, braille-reading wastrel, you...what was bullshit again?). Or start, God forbid, to attach certificates and the like (didn't someone else go down that path on here before?) Why would you even mention these things? What happened?

Or is there a vanguard of free-thinking, high IQ, but humble with it, voters and supporters of One Nation? The 'silent minority' within the 'silent majority'??

Maybe you should join One Nation? Exponentialise their collective IQ straight off the bat. Or start your own thing. You knocked up/found a manifesto in 5 minutes, remember? Lotta time on your hands. No mortgage. I think I mentioned the Posse Comitatus to you before. Australia's ripe.

Just come clean on the racism-sy stuff, maaaate. Trump exploited it. The base fear. As does Hanson. Though she's more of a 'true believer' than that old con-man. Maybe she isn't. Hardened and cynical now. Jail-time will do that to ya. Now where's me scapegoats?

Oh, and let's not forget she's got Malcolm Roberts with his ex-coal miner/executive head full of US tea-party shite.

Blowie, you know there's more to 'globalisation' than immigration. And I do mean YOU know. I assume you do. Some of us have been fighting the good fight on this and neo-liberal economics and politics for 20 + years in various ways. 'Multiculturalism' and 'national identity'(whatever that is ...as defined by who?) in the same sentence, let alone railing about 'Chinese' and 'muslims' (pin down those two multifarious types if you will!), is all a bit whiffy. Especially when Pauline's just glommed on to it this time round. Remember when it was 'Asians' (now there's a wide remit) and 'abos' her first time round. Japanese buying the Goldie? South-East Asians (much more narrow there...not!) heroinising the Western suburbs?

Sheesh. The 'mass immigration debate' glory daze.

Was this all part of Howard's plan to weaken labour and Labor back from 96 onwards? Jangle the shiny keys (with the dog-whistle key-ring) of 'illegal boat-people' making everyone look that-a-way, whilst turning a blind eye on the various visa rorts? Nothin' to see here? Yes! As surely as work-choices and his failed sub-Thatcher MUA destruction. Have labour and Labor been fighting a rear-guard battle against all this ever since? Yes! And is Hanson NOW the answer to our neo-liberal 'globalisation' woes? NO!

The difference between us and the UK, especially in the same period as Howard's reign, even though it was a Labour government in name, was that there was no strong union movement left after the Thatcher decade to command or combat this 'third way' bollocks (you may have to google 'third way'...how neo-liberalism post-Thatcher and Reagan fucked up Labour in the UK and the Democrats in the US till now!)

Unions - organised labour - have kept those excesses from being replicated here. It might seem counter-intuitive but Hanson supporting the ABCC (which is nothing but a crude ideological 'blunt instrument', as crude and blunt as the TURC) helps the neo-liberal 'globalisation' project as surely as trickle-down corporate tax cuts do. As does her new climate-change denial nonsense. Coal is good. Adani and billions propping it up are good? For 1500 new jobs?? For who???

Labor here can learn from Sanders and Corbyn...or perish. I think they are learning. Hanson's is a road to nowhere.

I'm defo not 20 or 30 anymore. Realpolitik is the name of the organised, institutional political game. My own ideological battles are now real and happening and outside organised party politics. No details but they will have very real consequences for my particular sphere of work and thus Australia as a whole either way things turn out.

No names, no pack-drill.

And da fun don't done...

talkingturkey, 1481179906

"Mass immigration is the alternative to the implementation of work choices. Not a real fan of either, but personally at least work choices didn't push real estate prices beyond the average Australian , clog up and push beyond capacity the nation's infrastructure including health system or destroy any pleasantry that might have once existed a those quiet places now overrun with people."

Stop it, Blowie, it's getting embarrassing. These are your binary visions of Australia? And Pauline is the solution?? Faaaaark, maaaaate.

Maybe you need to google some more.

"...straight away conflating a desire to halt excessive immigration that is leading to the decimation of Australia's living standards with halting immigration due to bigotry."

The decimation of Australia's living standards?? Decimation?? Melodrama alert! And this 'decimation' is due to "excessive immigration"...wholly? Most importantly? That's it??

"Mate, we've been through this very recently, but I'll say it again - both exist, yet both can exist independently of the other."

But not with you and your previous form on here. Your 'multicultural' this, and your 'national identity' that, and 'muslims' and 'Chinese' and, and, and...THEM!

Fuck mate, just 'fess up...to yourself.

Those anecdotal Hanson supporters I mentioned before...the real Hanson supporters, not fictional 'working-class' types, not the fictional 'battlers', and supposed Trump 'working poor' (google who they all really are...or I'll save you the time: the petty, under-educated/over-mortgaged, 'aspirational', downward envying, downward punching, coward punching, 'struggling' middle class stratum)...yes, those happy Hansonites are ALL of the "I'm not racist, but..." brigade. Actually, the Saffas and the retirees and the grubby subbie are straight up racist and proud. Even accounting for the childish "look-at-me" shock value. A few beers lets loose the others. A fair few more, and some bourbon, then unleashes the psychological on-the-couch mummy/daddy issues, schoolyard bullying, the "I'm so lonely, no-one understands what's going on in MY life" melodrama for all of 'em.

Usually the racist crap is just a foil, a crutch, a way of coping in the end. "What about me? It isn't fair! I've had enough and I want my share..."

Is this what happens when we've all laboured under this "no such thing as society" bullshit for too long?

Fucken hell. I wonder what it is for Pauline? Or you?

Sheepdog, 1481181708

Well, Blowin... It's good that you are actually voicing your opinion, which is a big change from your pathetic hypothetical scenario questions that you are known for.... Ridiculous questions like these blowin classics;

"Would you consider it an acceptable thread of free speech if I was to stand on your lawn and yell at passers by that we should storm your house and murder every one inside ?"

"Why no analogies ? Pretty apt don't you think ?"

"You ever been overseas Sheepy ?"

"Craig - I must have missed something.....
How do you know they're referring to sinking pacific islands and not the casual island life up North that I thought they were talking about ?"

"The whole Man up....No Balls ...what's that about ?"

False naivety....... I'm glad you left it all behind...... There's thousands more, but I really couldn't be bothered cutting and pasting anymore..... Reading that much of blowins fake questions has left me slightly ill.... I find the new up front stuff far more refreshing.

Now, in regards to pointing the finger at Turk or me or anyone about riddles and cryptic meanings, give it a rest..... Here's one of your many classics;
"Then you get the muppets swallowing the whole "Racism is the new paedophilia " social engineeringx propoganda handed down by the same overlords that they purport to despise."

Ffs..........

Sheepdog, 1481198441

Blowin... More of your posts...;

.

.

.

.

They were amassssiiiing......

Dude, don't blame the substances..... What a pissant excuse...
Btw, I didn't have to troll far..... Every fuckn thread is littered with your classics... But you know, if you want to go all "victim" or passive aggressive, knock yourself out... Fact is bro, you threw my name in to one of your rants at turk, for no real reason, when you know I'm as up front with you as can be..... Riddles my arse.....

Oh btw, the answer was Turnbull....... Epileptic fit - having a "turn"..... First month of may - falls in taurus - Taurus the bull...... Turn - Bull.....

Lift ya game dude..... lol

AndyM, 1481204716

Turkey thanks for your reply and yes, education is indeed a no-brainer. Along with healthcare and infrastructure investment, it's something that is obviously crucial to the country but the LNP are happy to gut them in the most cynical and brutal way.

Along with the public broadcaster of course.

But the recent conversation on this thread has been about a sustainable population and an Australia that can still be seen as somewhat natural and beautiful and not endless sprawling suburbs housing 50 million people.

You continue to equate any talk of a sustainable population with racism - I asked you for a solution to ponzi-scheme immigration and you gave me "education".

As crucial as education is, I reckon for a liveable future Australia we're going to have to do better than that, don't you?

I'm no One Nation fan but I'm old enough to understand when to be pragmatic.

talkingturkey, 1481255988

Well Andy, I don't know if I "equate ANY talk of a sustainable population with racism" [my emphasis]. We are talking about Hanson, yes? And the thin veil thrown up by the likes of Blowie in regards to immigration and now its impacts on workers, and specifically the various visa rorts and how they have been and are encouraged and exploited, politically by the LNP, no? The thin veil that is pretty much opaque.

In that real regard, real education investment negates this real need for skilled foreign labour. STEM, VET, apprenticeships etc. And as you rightly say, the LNP, has gutted and continues to gut this investment in the "most cynical and brutal way". I'd add "purposeful" too.

It's a bugger these days that adding links to anything is hit n miss on here, but I'm sure if you trawl around you'll see sustainable development and population positions and discussions from political parties at all levels, NGOs, the UN etc etc. The same for urban planning and development, infrastructure etc.

Compare and contrast.

BUT engaging with this kind of stuff, seriously?

"It's de rigueur these days to voice an opposition to racism.....even though, most would vomit at the thought of living amongst a truly foreign society in any meaningful fashion for an extended period.

Life in a a provincial Indian town , replete with sanctioned rapes and slut stoning carried out by a dozen village elders "

Great segue-way there, by the way. So much wrong with all that. Equating raising any concerns about racism with mere fashion? Howzabout living in a "truly foreign society in any meaningful fashion for an extended period" in say, Alice Springs - Utopia! - to get your vomit on? Just don't mention the R word...the injuns are coming (Hindus? Christians? Muslims? Sikhs? Buddhists? North? South? East? West? Bollywood???)

And because a small number of fellow Australians support Hanson and come out with stuff like that, now's the time for a 'reasonable' debate??

You may call it pragmatism, probably Dick Smith does too. It's reminiscent of the 'debate' on here that sprang up round the time of the Don Dale incident. It descended into 'reasonable' discussions about Aboriginality and funding and 18 friggin' C, and not the horrors perpetrated and witnessed?!

And faced with blatantly racist bullshit, it's time for a 'reasonable' debate about population control and immigration and 'multiculturalism' and 'muslims'? All in aid of the 'workers'?

(Whilst Pauline supports the ABCC?! Now THAT is truly vomitous!)

Blowin, 1481263478

Fuck you carry on Turkey.

Two seperate issues.

Can be interrelated .

Often aren't.

Can you discuss immigration and population control without mentioning racism.

If not, you're a fucking moron.

PS you really need to work on your delivery, I still can't understand your point eighty percent of the time .

PPS For better or worse , you've obviously never been a worker. Not in the modern incarnation that sees jobs preferences to foreigners. So maybe reserve your judgement on the thinking of those that have until you've got a bit of insight into their situation.

Not racist to be entitled to preferential treatment in the society you are a part of.

talkingturkey, 1481264753

"Can you discuss immigration and population control without leaking racism.

If not, you're a fucking moron."

There fixed your rhetorical for ya. I'm a fixer.

talkingturkey, 1481267196

And you are, to quote your big IQ-ed self, a fucking moron.

Do you know what a fluffer is? Quick, google.

Who's fluffin' who?

What's ballooning mean? Is that in Roger's Profanisaurus?

talkingturkey, 1481268321

Fuck...stop it. You're killing me!

First it's the self-proclaimed IQ malarkey, and now you're the "main player" that I'm "massaging"?!

Whoah! Easy, big fella!

As for "unambiguous opinion" about Hanson and her ilk? Erm, not coming through loud n clear enough for ya? You need a "please explain"?

Sheesh! You're not on the turps again, are ya?

talkingturkey, 1481268418

Straight from Pauline's mouth (piece):

"One Nation believes that immigration should be open for debate and a population policy in place. Australians have the right to a cohesive society and deny immigration to anyone who does not abide by our law, culture, democracy, flag or Christian way of life. Australians have been tolerant and welcome new migrants coming to find a new homeland. We don’t want or need migrants bringing their problems, laws, culture and opposing religious beliefs on us."

Discuss.

talkingturkey, 1481269179

Actually, before discussing that, can someone "please explain" this?

"the new concept ( since the mid nineties ) of racism being the most heinous crime one can be accused of , on par with paedophilia , was introduced by the same people that wish to divide and conquer the unity of the Australian labour movement through multiculturalism.

That being the Neo liberals.

These protagonists are responsible for the depreciation of labour costs via flooding the market with foreign labour and they introduced this concept as a way to silence the voice of dissent .

Unfortunately, traditional opponents of the Neo liberals swallowed the entire " dire race relations" subtext and lept to the defence of an unvictimised wave of immigrants into Australia and embarked on a crusade of unfounded ,and ultimately self destructive , identity politics warfare that alienated the core base of their supporters.

That being the workers."

talkingturkey, 1481273193

Yes, yes, I think I've got it. I think I can tie both things together here...

Pauline and One Nation are racists AND paedophiles! Got it!

Cheers!

[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/5xmw08.jpg[/IMG]

Blowin, 1481273486

Yeah mate, well done.

Blowin, 1481355526

yawn

Blowin, 1481355582

snooze

Blowin, 1481355631

Snore

Blowin, 1481355664

Yawn

Blowin, 1481356048

zzzzzzz

Blowin, 1481356227

yawn

Blowin, 1481356266

Sleep

Blowin, 1481356349

Yawn

Blowin, 1481356417

Snooze

Blowin, 1481356501

yawn

Blowin, 1481356708

Yawn

Blowin, 1481356824

snore

Blowin, 1481356865

A : A bucket

Blowin, 1481356990

snooze

Blowin, 1481357060

snooze

Blowin, 1481357110

sleep

Blowin, 1481357195

Zzzzzzzz

Blowin, 1481357251

snore

Blowin, 1481357300

yawn

Blowin, 1481357408

Yawn

Blowin, 1481357504

Yawn

sypkan, 1481405088

all this talk of skin in tbe game...or not...I couldn't overlook this

the intellectual yet idiot

But the problem is the one-eyed following the blind: these self-described members of the “intelligentsia” can’t find a coconut in Coconut Island, meaning they aren’t intelligent enough to define intelligence hence fall into circularities — but their main skill is capacity to pass exams written by people like them. With psychology papers replicating less than 40%, dietary advice reversing after 30 years of fatphobia, macroeconomic analysis working worse than astrology, the appointment of Bernanke who was less than clueless of the risks, and pharmaceutical trials replicating at best only 1/3 of the time, people are perfectly entitled to rely on their own ancestral instinct and listen to their grandmothers (or Montaigne and such filtered classical knowledge) with a better track record than these policymaking goons.

https://medium.com/@nntaleb/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577

sypkan, 1481405290

"He thinks people should act according to their best interests and he knows their interests, particularly if they are “red necks” or English non-crisp-vowel class who voted for Brexit. When plebeians do something that makes sense to them, but not to him, the IYI uses the term “uneducated”. What we generally call participation in the political process, he calls by two distinct designations: “democracy” when it fits the IYI, and “populism” when the plebeians dare voting in a way that contradicts his preferences"

blindboy, 1481446650

The main game with Trump becomes clearer by the day. The Russian influence has been significant. They help him into power and he removes the sanctions that are hitting their elite so hard and restricting their capacity to fund further military adventures. Watch, over the next few months, as Russia continues its destabilisation and invasion of parts of the old USSR. The decay of the US has been a concern for at least a decade but no-one could have anticipated that their political system would be so easily manipulated by a foreign power!

happyasS, 1481447921

the only "interests" trump is concerned with are his own

remove [] around [s]crewing for a working link

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/09/hey-white-working-class-donald-trump-is-already-[s]crewing-you-over.html

blindboy, 1481449421

......or this.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/10/how-russian-hackers-can-blackmail-donald-trump-and-the-gop.html

floyd, 1481454554

.... and the parasite isn't even president yet. all this can only ever end badly just like our little divided nation experience.

tonybarber, 1481500376

There seems to be a contradiction here. Firstly, we don't direct evidence of Russian hacking, although the hackers have been 'identified' but not made public. Not being in the US, I assume it is fair to say that releasing Hillarys emails would be embarrassing for here, probably for the simple fact that she was dumb enough to use her own server. The paradox is that Wikileaks publicised the leaked emails - Wikileaks !! Why would Wikileaks do this.
If, as the report stated, the Russians have something on the republicans then what is it. Would it be enough to impeach Trump.
All seems highly speculative and conjecture. I think this 'interference' needs to be spelt out.

blindboy, 1481502294

Why would wikileaks do this .......Assange has a long standing grudge against Hilary Clinton.

talkingturkey, 1481503442

Ooooooweeee! It's all happening! Blowie's self-redactions/assessments, and a last gasp bit of that Taleb dude again (First Tim Foilhat, David H. Koch, then Manbatty-boy, now InSippo), and that's just in Swellnet world! In that other 'reality show' Trump's con-man march continues...and now the CIA and Russia and Julian. Sheesh! Who's writing this script?! Where's my Monsanto-drenched popcorn?

talkingturkey, 1481513809

[IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/wjz40n.png[/IMG]

sypkan, 1481525417

you don't get it turkeyman..

it's not that trump is good...it's just that the alternative was so fucking woefully bad

evidenced by the fact that none of you clinton clan have bothered to answer questions or defend her

come on someone, tell us why clinton would've been better

I dare you!

talkingturkey, 1481532491

There is no Clinton clan on here. There never was. I'd venture there is no-one on here that voted in the US election, let alone was eligible to.

Having said that, there's plenty of Trump-proselytizers?! Or rather, there WERE...Where they go? Fun's done as the inevitable 'real' Trump bares his con-man arse to his 'supporters' and the world??

Trump is a joke, and/or a horror show. End of Empire and/or End of Days? Oooweeee! Stay tuned...

As Australians, what can be gleaned from our US (and UK) english-speaking counterparts? What stuff will be learned (good and/or bad)?

(Also, just because we kinda speak the same lingo, don't over-conflate the experiences here and there...eg population size, voting arrangements etc etc)

blindboy, 1481536648

sypkan the reasons for preferring Clinton are self-evident. Political stability. Adequate governance. Greater economic stability. Lower risk of nuclear war. Less risk of aggressive action by Russia. Should I go on or will that do for the moment. Note that preferring Clinton does not equal unqualified support for her policies. I mean, modern versions of Nixon and Reagan would be preferable to Trump. It would be a close call between Trump and Kim Jong-un. That's how bad he is.

AndyM, 1481540658

Turkey so after all this chat you never did tell us of your preference for Australia's future. A sustainable population? Unlimited immigration?

tonybarber, 1481583629

Out of interest, what is a sustainable population. Let's say for Aus. Now, just think what the Club of Rome thought a few years back and see if their predictions came up.

floyd, 1481585608

When people use the words sustainable population I immediately think environment first but I'm sure that's atypical.

floyd, 1481585898

Love this Instagram account

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/es4ums.png[/IMG]

floyd, 1481586046

or this

[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/s4qot2.png[/IMG]

sharkman, 1481587197

assange got his wikileaks from the Russians and has already petitioned Trump , about not being extradited to the USA.
I find it rather amusing that Trump now has a mandate to execute his policies , with control of the congress and Senate , and Australia is now just stuck in nowhere land with no clear mandate anywhere !

Australia will aimlessly flail around not doing much of anything , at least the seppos can and are doing something , even if you don't like it!

talkingturkey, 1481589114

Want to really get your 'conspiracy' on? Chuck "Trump", "Putin", "Rex Tillerson", "ExxonMobil" and "Rosneft" into your search engine of choice.

Booya!

talkingturkey, 1481589909

"Turkey so after all this chat you never did tell us of your preference for Australia's future. A sustainable population? Unlimited immigration?"

AndyM, they're the two choices, huh? Where? In the real world or on here? And what do those two terms even mean?

Actually, I choose a)*. Whatever. Done. Like 18C, this 'debate' needs no oxygen really. What's Bob Katter and Andrew Wilkie up to these days (remember them)?

*b) means what again? maybe that's a go-er. Dunno. It ain't keeping me up at night.

Is there a thread you can take it to? "Unlimited immigration vs Sustainable Population" (definitions pending)...

sypkan, 1481600733

is there any question that will be answerred with an answer rather than a question from the turkeyman?

you're harder to get answers out of than tonybarber....and that's saying something!!

at least you engage in the question I guess, rather than blatantly ignoring it, ...but geez...up there with tonybarber...inhabiting some lofty grounds there

Blowin, 1481602021

The question of whether we should grow the population at the equivalent of a new Canberra each year isn't relevant .......

Like 18c ?

The debate isn't worth giving oxygen to ?

Back to guessing the possible intentions of the nominal head of a country 8000 kms away then.....

Because he's a bad, bad man.

The worst !

The fact that a man such as Xi Jinping runs the most populous country in the world and is an aggressive expansionist that is stoking the fires of Chinas supremacy daily probably isn't worth a mention .

Back to what Trump MIGHT do to destabilise the world.

Snore.

talkingturkey, 1481603211

InSippo, all hail the straw-men!

(Pssst, you're on the wrong thread, Blowie. This one's called TRUMP. Gonna self-redact again, comrade? All together now, "I like Chinese...I like Chinese...They only come up to your knees...They're cute and they're cuddly and they’re ready to please...)

tonybarber, 1481607315

Sypkan - Question is ??
Must have missed it in all the .....
No, the question is - what is deemed to be a sustainable immigration?

AndyM, 1481613416

So lame Turkey.

I give you two possible starting points out of god knows how many and you decide on a pubescent answer like that?

Seriously, what would you prefer to see happen in Australia's future?

Why don't you actually constructively contribute to some of these threads instead of continuing to shit in your hand and throw it at people (who at least aren't afraid to voice their beliefs).

talkingturkey, 1481617164

FFS. You've read/heard of "framing debates", yeah, Andy M? Lakoff?

He devotes a chapter in his book The Political Mind to the subject of framing:

In it, he asserts that: …”we think in terms of frames and metaphors that fit our worldviews, and language can be chosen to activate frames, metaphors and worldviews.” He goes onto say: “Framing is not just a matter of slogans. It is a mode of thought, a mode of action, a sign of character. It is not just words, though words do have to be said over and over again.”

He warns that if you accept the opponent’s frame, you are trapped.

Forget the ape-shit, do some thinking. Don't be afraid.

You've been framed (by Hanson no less!) Pubescent enough for ya?

talkingturkey, 1481617619

As for "Seriously, what would you prefer to see happen in Australia's future?"

I don't see Hanson, Dick Smith and dumb-ass notions of 'sustainable immigration' (emphasis on dumb-ass) as THE reason to support a political party.

I would prefer to see Murdoch die soon though. Literally and figuratively.

Blowin, 1481618301

And I thought Occy was the worst dancer in the surfing community.....

"In it, he asserts that: …”we think in terms of frames and metaphors that fit our worldviews, and language can be chosen to activate frames, metaphors and worldviews.” He goes onto say: “Framing is not just a matter of slogans. It is a mode of thought, a mode of action, a sign of character. It is not just words, though words do have to be said over and over again.”"

I wish I knew how to add that to your David Lynch quote.

Even you've got to laugh at that Turkey.

PS Here's a shocking piece of intell just come to light : Language can also be used to answer direct questions.... directly !

Who'd have thought ?

Maybe it's further into your book on strategic political debating and you just haven't gotten to that page yet.

Blowin, 1481618384

Though words do have to be said over and over again.....

GUFFAW !!!!!!!

talkingturkey, 1481618538

Is that another self-redaction?

Anyway, back to the thread...

http://fair.org/home/worst-false-equivalencies-of-2016/

Blowin, 1481619403

Yeah, back to it.....

Let's see you dance around the issue for another ten pages.

Here's a bit of music to help you get back in your " unique " rhythm.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni632sTHZWU

AndyM, 1481619791

Turkey who said I support One Nation?

You're all over the place.

I ask the simplest of questions and you continue to be too clever by half.

When are you going to state your convictions - do you actually have any?

Blowin, 1481621248

I heard Turkey was caught in flagrante delictico at the Geelong football oval male public toilet.

His conviction was receiving swollen goods.

AndyM, 1481622616

Ok Turkey, I'll go first.

I'm a long-time Greens voter.

I love the physical environment in Australia - all its coasts, the mountains, the interior.

I love deserted and undeveloped beaches as well as mountains. This includes clean air, clean water, cheap camping, good fishing and preferably uncrowded surf.

This is just Like "Perfect Match", isn't it Turkey?

Increasing population has been an obvious issue to me for decades - one minute there's 12 million people, next minute there's 24 million. Who's benefitting? Who's calling the shots? Who's losing out? What does the future hold?

Politicians haven't touched the population issue with a barge pole, so if Hanson actually brings the issue to the table why wouldn't you at least be part of the discussion and at least try to steer it towards a suitable tone, which for me is an environmental and economic slant. To reject the whole issue because of Hanson makes zero sense.

Of course there is no "answer" to the issues but a conversation is long overdue.

Personally, I'd like to see replacement-level immigration, at least until this country can get its shit together with regards to infrastructure/transport, water usage etc.

A large chunk of those immigrants would be refugees, and you might be surprised to hear that if they had brown or black skin, I'd be completely ok with that.

blindboy, 1481626435

This will sound like a eulogy when Trump finally dies. HST doing what he did best.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-was-a-crook/308699/

AndyM, 1481627009

Trump's the best thing to happen to world politics for a long time.

indo-dreaming, 1481627584

Well said Andy on both post totally agree.

And although i do think we should reduced immigration I think this is good news

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/12/13/one-five-pacific-islanders-would-move-australia-under-new-migration-proposal

I think it sucks that we have a high populations of certain groups of people from countries far away, but generally low population of intake from our neighbouring countries(other than NZ).

Id love to see priority given to our neighbours like Pacific island region, PNG, and off course Indonesia.

AndyM, 1481628555

Good point I.D., we're close to N.Z. and maybe Fiji but we seem to have bugger all to do with some of our neighbours. Would be nice to counter that.

As for Trump, I think that the whole thing's an unbelievable train wreck but if that's what it takes to shine a light on the U.S. and all its lies, smoke and mirrors, then so be it.
Would be hilarious to see that a foreign nation has subverted an American election. Check this out below.

http://www.alternet.org/story/39416/america's_100_years_of_overthrow

And you can add a good few since this article was written.

Blowin, 1481629851

Unreal, we'd get to subsidise the farm hands for the other 320 days a year they're not picking fruit as well.

Medicare, dole, pension. ...we will fork out no worries.

Anything as long as the farmers don't have to pay a living wage to their employees.

And when even the report that puts forward the suggestion that their may be a "small" reduction in wage rates, well good luck waiting to find out how low they will plummet.

Lowey institute eh?

Such benevolent people, only looking out for our poor neighbors, no vested interests involved !

Stage 2 of the Oceanic version of the EU.

Selling out Australia's future to support other nations.

At least it would prove a foil to China's orchestrations towards the region.

And of course it'll be a reciprocal arrangement whereby Australians can buy freehold land anywhere in the Pacific right ?

Ummmm, that would be a no.

sypkan, 1481639149

no particular question tonybarber, well not atm anyway, just your history, floyd, myself and many others have asked perfectly reasonable questions and you just seem to disappear for a few days

yep, good posts andym, nice to see someone willing to put it all out there. to be fair to turkeyman these concepts are kinda slippery, and tend to get steamrolled and exploited by agendas. while I wholeheartedly agree with andym I often think of Australia's east whole east coast as comparable to the whole Indonesian archipelago. from this perspective the east coast could accommodate a similar population, sustain, or support for a small period of time is the question.

having said that, the best thing about oz is how pristine parts of the environment are. surely that's something worth protecting in an over developed world?

gotta agree indod, the travesty of the current globalisation experiment is a country like oz doesn't prioritize it's immediate poor neighbours. indos have been ripped off big time as we accept wealthy migrants from across the globe.

and this is the whole problem with globalisation. it's been a model based on a free for all for the wealthy. and free movement for the already relatively wealthy.

the open borders zealots jumped in bed with the free market zealots, as they both got a version of what they wanted.

the clinton hacking exposed her fantasy of an open borders world, running on green energy etc.etc. I share that dream too,....well I did in 1996. 20 years on that experiment hasn't worked out so well and is in dire need of reassessment. unfortunately ideology isn't facilitating this reassessment as the zealots bunker down behind their ideologies. obtuse to new developments and information

borders are a drag, and totally unfair, but so is reality

I won't single anyone out, but clearly there are open borders enthusiasts on here. I'd love if one, or some, would explain their enthusiasm. is it a moral thing? is it influenced by travel and/or overseas family and friends? or just a bit of idealism?

nothing wrong with any of those, but it really puzzles me why they're so enthused, yet totally unwilling to discuss such things

if one does raise such things, they become all weird, angry and uncommunicative, a bit like I used to be about certain issues, until I grew up a bit, and realised we've all got our own ideals, or no ideals at all, whichever the case may be,...whatever floats your dysfunctional canoe in this impending waterworld of globalisation

sypkan, 1481659605

one for you blindboy

"Why not talk to Putin? Why not acknowledge that America cannot run the world and that other nations have legitimate strategic interests? What's fascinating about Trump is that while he might regard America as an exceptional country, he's honest about its failings and refuses to pretend it has a right to global domination."

that's coming from the 'clinton news network' no less

America should follow it's rhetoric of engaging with the world, rather than its practice of invading the world

other countries do have legitimate interests and concerns, and I'm sure America wouldn't take to kindly to russia destabilizing a bunch of angry countries on it's doorstep while enjoying the relative safety of vast oceans

as to your point of economic stability ppffffff!

socialism for the stock market and extreme capitalism for the peasants is nothing worth protecting, that's without even considering the massive amounts of energy around the world currently being expended to give the illusion that everything is alright

htt
p://edition.cnn.
com/2016/12/12/opinions/trump-view-putin-stanley/index.html

blindboy, 1481669526

"socialism for the stock market and extreme capitalism for the peasants is nothing worth protecting, "

Until you have seen Trump's alternative which is nothing more than a radical intensification of both. A fast food chain owner with a history of opposing minimum wage laws in charge of labour? And that is going to alleviate "extreme capitalism"? No it will intensify it. As will his tax cuts for big business and the wealthy.

talkingturkey, 1481680858

Oooooweeee! Quote-a-rama!

First Blowie, before he self-redacts AGAIN...

"I heard Turkey was caught in flagrante delictico at the Geelong football oval male public toilet.

His conviction was receiving swollen goods."

Hmmm, what have I told you about projection for the umpteenth time, maaaaate? Tch tch.

talkingturkey, 1481686773

Now, Andy M. Here's a few quotes.

Seeing as this thread is called TRUMP, I'll start with this one:

"Trump's the best thing to happen to world politics for a long time."

and chuck in this one:

"I'm a long-time Greens voter.

I love the physical environment in Australia - all its coasts, the mountains, the interior."

Is this Trump the same bloke who has just appointed Rex Tillerson, CEO of ExxonMobil and Putin business associate, as his Secretary of State? Who's got Scott Pruitt, the attorney general of the oil and gas-intensive state of Oklahoma and climate-change skeptic, to head the Environmental Protection Agency? Who wants Rick Perry, the oily Texas Governor, to head the Energy Department he once infamously vowed to abolish (though he may have got mixed up with the EPA there...whatevers. Same same)?

The same bloke who said climate-change is a Chinese hoax??

Is this what is called 'cognitive dissonance'? Or just a case of, as you described me, "you're all over the place"??

Before we get into Hanson (just don't mention Malcolm Roberts!), here's another quote:

"Politicians haven't touched the population issue with a barge pole, so if Hanson actually brings the issue to the table why wouldn't you at least be part of the discussion and at least try to steer it towards a suitable tone, which for me is an environmental and economic slant. To reject the whole issue because of Hanson makes zero sense."

Hanson's is a single-issue party. It's HER big issue. IMMIGRATION. And, muslims (this time round...chuck in some 'globalisation' too there).

Is it say, the Green’s (who you vote for) BIG issue? Here's their barge-pole/population policy:

http://greens.org.au/policies/population

Got a problem with it, Andy M? Seems alright to me. There are others out there from Labor and the Libs even NXT!

Just because Pauline has got 4, well, 3 members in the parliament, means Hanson's BIG issue is ours? Remember when Clive Palmer had 4 members of parliament? What was his BIG issue again?

What happened to Katter and Wilkie? They're still there. What's theirs?

Maybe that's a question for the corporate media?

I don't need to legitimate Hanson. Her BIG issues aren't mine. The substance of her positions are not worthy of my time or consideration. Though the way she frames her BIG issues and the obfuscations surrounding her blatant racism is. Dick Smith or you may consider it pragmatic to jump onboard (in Dick's case...though I wouldn't rule out his 'relevancy deficiency syndrome') or engage (in yours), but I don't.

Actually, I feel another quote coming on...

talkingturkey, 1481686940

Actually, why self-redact on here, Blowie? You've posted crappier shite (believe it or not)

Fun factoid: Rick Perry and Pauline Hanson were both on Dancing with the Stars!

talkingturkey, 1481688880

blindboy, 1481689629

"Could it be any clearer what is going on? As I wrote last week, Trump appears to have made a deal, at least an implicit one, with the Republican leaders in which they get their way on many of the big policy issues—taxes, education, the environment, regulation of finance and the labor market—and he gets to keep hold of his businesses, and his personal brand, the value of which, as he freely admitted a few weeks ago, has been greatly enhanced by his election victory.
This situation has the potential to turn the topmost echelons of the United States government into a kleptocracy. "

New Yorker today

blindboy, 1481689761

And from the same source

"Donald Trump has chosen a fast-food executive, Andy Puzder, to be his Labor Secretary. Puzder, the C.E.O. of the parent company of the Carl’s Jr. and Hardee’s burger chains, was a heavy donor to the Trump campaign. He is a prominent opponent of raising the minimum wage, of paid sick leave, of efforts to raise the salary threshold for overtime pay, and of Obamacare. Puzder is even critical of the federal relief programs, such as food stamps, that subsidize the poverty wages that he pays his employees. The current federal minimum wage is just $7.25 per hour. "

talkingturkey, 1481691249

Trump...draining the swamp or re-filling the sump?

sypkan, 1481696678

the dancing fowl strikes again

despite your aloofness turkeyman, I'm sure you do what you do for the right reasons. whatever it is that you do that is, it appears you have more than a casual interest in politics.

you should be taking this stuff on board, as I, like andym, am a long term greens voter also, but I'm leaning towards never again...

I think there's a hell of a lot of people like us that are totally disillusioned with the greens and labor. now it's a bit cliche atm to say you're disillusioned with politics generally, but for those that lean left this is very significant, as people turn to parties like one nation and the like because 'the elites' (another sigh-ful cliche) have not listened to the people for a long time..a very long time.

I'm sure many greens and labor voters are the same in holding their noses as they vote, because they don't want to vote for the miserable fucks on the right. but the reality is while the left says all the right things about the environment etc. they've achieved very little regarding things like climate change. we've basically had a twenty year talk fest anually circumnavigating the globe with nothing to show for it. in fact we've seen it really is only rhetoric as those at the top are willing to sacrifice nothing in their way of life whilst advocating strongly the importance of addressing our 'greatest moral challenge' ever. many big talkers on these forums are prime examples. this does not build confidence or compliance as everyone thinks fuck it, if they don't change why the fuck should we?

this is also the case for your pet project agenda 21, which endeavors to address world poverty, amongst other things, by sacrificing the wages and conditions of people at the bottom of the ladder in western societies, as blowin has so convincingly shown. they really should have thought that one through!

so you can come on here and bag us all you want for being, dumb, ignorant, uneducated, populist, etc., choose whichever label you want, and roll off as many examples of the hypocrisy of trump's appointments as you like, but it's all water of a duck's back, as the left has achieved next to nothing besides all the big talk.

mate, people have been giving them the benefit of the doubt for a long time. keeping reasonably quiet and in line hoping for a better future. overzealous political correctness has controlled the narrative so tightly the liberal left has been in a bubble believing they're winning. the fact they're so shellshocked by trumps victory shows it's the lefty elites that are ignorant or dumb, or both, not the plebs!!

so please realise, while these things may not be a priority for you, and it's oh so abhorrent that people want to talk about migration, unless you do, you're doomed, and deemed for the dustbin of politics. many comments at the guardian show there's loads of people like me and andym out there who support green causes vehemently, but seriously question the other policies of the greens (and labor).

so stay aloof and become irrelevant if you wish, but you're not really winning anything...winner

one nation came from nowhere in this election, never even heard from them prior to it, and I follow politics, yet they won four senate seats. since the election they've only gone from strength to strength. if the other paties don't start listening I reckon they'll outnumber the greens by the end of the next one. trust me, I live in the ghetto, where even there, talk of one nation was scoffed at prior to this election. since the election, there's a lot of people talking one nation

tonybarber, 1481699951

Sypkan, can you see your own contradiction. You say 'they have achieved very little'. What is it you want to exactly achieve. The Paris agreement did set limits. Each signed up country is doing its own bit to achieve these limits. Our chief scientist, the man who started the climate change debate have both advised their solution. But yet the believers don't want to believe their suggestions. I am sure you know why One Nation has hit the nerve. A lot of people love or trust Dick Smith. I am sure you know why the Greens are faultering. I am sure you know why Trump has become president. Is really a left and right issue or maybe let's talk facts first before we develop a policy.

indo-dreaming, 1481704271

Im confused how can the Greens have a population policy?

In regards to refugees they would basically have an open border policy where as long as you can get here and you are a refugee you can stay here. (as they would never turn a true refugee away, no matter how they got here)

That would put Australia towards the top of the list in regard to countries refugees would aim to get too and with over 50 million refugees in the world there is no shortage of supply.

And please don't even say, but we only get such and such amount of refugees....yes that is true because we have policy that discourages refugees from arriving, but if we had the opposite the numbers would be unknown, the number of refugees who want or try to get to Australia is not set in stone, it hugely dictated by policy as we saw under Rudd.

The Greens are exactly like One nation in the fact the don't really have serious policy, they just have policy to attract the voting demographic they are targeting.

talkingturkey, 1481705394

So you're a Greens voter too, Sippy! So what's not up-to-scratch with their population policy (linked - miraculously - above!) for you, as a Greens voter?

In fact, the posting links difficulties have really contributed to the 'truthiness' factor on these threads, in my opinion. Maybe it's why some commenters have dropped off. Like Shatnerd for example. Not that anyone read the links anyway, hey? TL:DR LOL

Actually, my first impressions on your comment Sippy, and others of yours, are the number of buzzwords and concepts of the day bandied about. US media buzzwords and concepts. Like 'open borders', say. Who in Australian politics has that as a policy position again?

Agenda 21? My pet project?? Also I'm a Hillary supporter??

If there is one takeaway thing regarding any stuff I post, it is, maybe, don't conflate the US/UK, and us too much. Politically, and especially, how the corporate media works to disseminate it all. Here, there, wherever.

The Australian media landscape in particular is a really small gene pool. Especially owner-wise. And if you're a worker, and want to remain in work, and keep any options open, you've got to tread carefully. It's not really rocket-science to then connect-the-dots that determine how and why we then get the 'info' we get presented to us for consumption. There's a business imperative.

For example, why would the Guardian today have a (non) story, with great photo (of guess which 'power couple'), about a Tony Abbott radio interview in which he mentions Pauline Hanson? Click-bait, of course. Pauline is click-bait. Lleyonhelm and 18C is. Clive Palmer was. Katter? Wilkie? What happened with them? Are they still around? Who's agenda is front and centre again?

If Pauline shuffled off the mortal/media coil tomorrow, and we didn't see her (and Malcolm Roberts...actually, how do you and Andy M reconcile that!)) swimming on the Barrier Reef, say, EVER AGAIN, would the great Aussie corporate media consuming public get riled up about any of her stuff as the PRE-EMINENT ISSUES OF THE DAY?

Is that possible in our particular media landscape as it is?

Trump is click-bait. There's no real public broadcaster in the States, and now they've got Trump as president. President by corporate media click-bait! No such thing as bad publicity. And there's a sucker born every minute! Ka-ching$ all round!

And the way the ABC is being pilloried and dismantled by this government? We next? Pauline for PM??

OK maybe another quick quote, and stolen from Norman Mailer via Andre Gide, "please do not understand me too quickly." I'm just trying to use these threads to slow things up, well, in the main. Get some thought happening. And take the piss. But is it taking the piss, when it's being given away? Whatever. Read, skim-read, don't read. Up to youse.

...and then a TB & ID microdose!

Sheepdog, 1481705824

Jesus H Christ!!!! It's the thread that just keeps giving!!!! It's like some, not dying neverending blurt fest thingy......
Anyhoooooo.... Kanye for 2024 I reckon.....

floyd, 1481707800

Indo says .... " Im confused how can the Greens have a population policy?

In regards to refugees they would basically have an open border policy where as long as you can get here and you are a refugee you can stay here. (as they would never turn a true refugee away, no matter how they got here)"

Indo, I think, no I know, you are completely misrepresenting the Greens policy ... which is regional co-operation for regional processing, not open boarders ....... but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story LOL.

Oddly, Im starting to think Divided Nation's immigration policy is more green than the greens policy if you ignore all the races undertones.

sypkan, 1481714732

turkeyman I do read most the stuff you post because I'm genuinely interested, and you do post good stuff (though a little wordy, of course).I do actually appreciate what you do here, same with blindboy, youse are a bit one eyed for my liking, but I admire your convictions and efforts. I think we'd probably agree more than disagree if not in virtual reality land.

however I can't be fucked reading their population policy because it's just words on a page.I judge their immigration policy by the crap that comes, or came, out of sarah hanson young's mouth. yeh she's gone now (the best thing the greens ever did!!). but she gives a good insight into the thinking of the greens establishment. and that insight corresponds with indod's post above, and the stuff blowin is on about.

I really think the left overstates the influence of Rupert Murdoch, yeh he had a lot of influence, but that '...times already a changing'. don't get me started on the guardian, they're as complicit as anyone in supporting the corporatocracy, they just lace it with enough 'greenspeak' and identity politics to appear leftish. it really saddens me that their loyal readers defend them to the hilt...so fucking gullible.

I know you're just a shit stirrer, genuinely trying to spur on debate, but you've gotta answer a question occasionally, and please, please tone down the ambiguity on your positions...just occasionally tell us what you really think.

I like katter, and I think wilkie, oakshot and windsor were the best thing to happen to oz politics at the time. where are they now? worn down and out, just like Garrett, it really is a cunt of a sport, and that's where I have respect (very little actually ) for hanson, her resilience is amazing, a lot to be said for conviction outsiders versus the career politicians of labor.

tonybarber are you rattling on about nuclear again? seriously? you must have some shares in yellowcake inc. because your resilience and conviction is undying, though not really respectable. there's more than one way to skin a cat, and the fact many big players don't advocate alternatives is very telling.

the crap that comes out of clinton's mouth while supporting the saudi oil regime is just insulting. the same for her wall street support, these things are clearly linked and I cannot believe the likes of the guardian can claim to be what they are without investigating these links,...again an insult to one's intelligence.

sheepdog could be right regarding kanye, he's the right colour for the democrats 'diversity' push though the wrong sex for the identity politics journal ( the guardian) plus he's been photographed with the trump, and quoted as supporting trump, so maybe no. which leads me to the utter bullshit pushed by the clinton campaign. that trump is a white supremacist and homophobic. absolute lies fabricated by the democrats. trump said nothing, absolutely nothing!!! about these two groups but that didn't stop the democrats riding these lies for all they were worth, leading to gay people having a self inflicted crisis about what might happen post election. does that equate to concern for minorities?? I think not, quite the opposite.

again, an insult to one's intelligence, this is half of the issue, the left's propensity to cry wolf for political gain. clinton, the student of alinsky, using what was once well meaning, for cynical gain, and it dissipates all the way down to the minions in oz politics. they've lost all credibility in many people's eyes.

having said that, I totally agree, conflating oz with the uk, us phenomena is troublesome, but aussies can see the writing on the wall

sypkan, 1481721120

I take some of that back, one government from the left has been quite productive and progressive. the SA labour government. despite the state being perpetratually broke, this labor government has managed to do quite a lot with very little.

and now the first steps to go it alone regarding a treaty with aboriginal people. jay wetheril is about as boring and unispiring as bill shorten, but there's no questioning his ability and energy to get stuff done

https
://www
.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/dec/14/sa-government-aims-to-sign-treaty-with-indigenous-australians-within-12-months

indo-dreaming, 1481748806

It does have some positives but all regional processing does is turn second base to third base, a more affordable base to get too hence sees even higher numbers, but you still end up with the problem of either taking every refugee who is genuine or turning people away once you get to your set number.(and then those people then try to get to third base by boat)

But Greens could never turn any refugees away anyway it goes against what they stand for so it's not really a population policy, when you don't have a cap on our refugee intake.

Regional processing would never happen anyway it would be silly for a country like Indonesia to agree too it, it would be like ants to honey and cause all kinds of issues.

And If your going to turn second base to third, why not just go all the way and turn first base to third base? and give all refugees who apply for resettlement a chance of a new life.

Hey that's what we already do really, (apply for resettlement at the nearest Aussie embassy) but as we know not everyone wants to wait to go wait to be processed because there is such a a backlog.

sypkan, 1481757175

oh, I see kanye is out and proud on the trump team now, I was a bit behind the times

I'm not sure if that awkward photo confirms or contradicts what I said above, but trump doesn't look to fazed having the black man around...for a white supremacist

some of his supporters may be having an elvis moment with their televisions though

AndyM, 1481758211

Turkey's just here to "get some thought happening."

What would I do without your omnipotent wisdom TT??

You really are the suppository of all wisdom although that does help to explain a few things.

Just remember, I'm only trying to help you Turks.

udo, 1481763341

Anyway Eddie Obied got 5yrs
NP of 3yrs

talkingturkey, 1481764772

"Jesus H Christ!!!! It's the thread that just keeps giving!!!! It's like some, not dying neverending blurt fest thingy......"

Doggo, you're not going 'weeeeeny' are ya, comrade?

Snuffy Smith, 1481765954

AndyM, 1481770856

I think we established quite a while back your credentials in the groupthink dept. Turks.

A final word - I think your refusal on this site to answer the most civil and reasonable questions means that your contributions are nowhere near as positive as you might like to think.

Personally I'd say you're more part of the problem than the solution.

talkingturkey, 1481774287

The royal 'we', Andy? The editorial?

Right......"Credentials in the groupthink department", hey?

I seem to recall someone giving you a potted history about Groupthink as devised by the social psychologist that came up with it in 1972, Irving Janis. And a definition from the man himself, that you didn't like, preferring the Wikipedia one, as I recall. They even supplied how the concept was flawed from the get-go, and how it's been resurrected and used as a pejorative term by the rabid right in the US relatively recently.

Anyway, the Green's population policy just not floating your boat, I guess, hey comrade? Dunno. As I said it seems reasonable to me.

talkingturkey, 1481774560

Snuffy, is Little Big the Russian answer to the South African Die Antwoord [Dutch translation]? Too many answers, what're the questions?

Snuffy Smith, 1481778402

Weeeeeeeee

indo-dreaming, 1481880360

This could easily also go in the "housing price thread" it's both related to unsustainable population growth and housing prices etc

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2016/12/dick-smith-vs-waleed-aly-population-ponzi/

Blowin, 1481882950

Here's a little slice of gold.

Migrants that come to Australia whinging about how expensive it is to bring their ageing parents to this country even though they will recoup the cost to the average amount of 8-10 times through their parents then going onto the taxpayers teat.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/16/a-new-temporary-parent-visa-threatens-to-create-second-class-australians

So 8700 parental reunions per year costing $410,000 over their lifetime. Multiply by ten years of migrant intake = $35 BILLION .

Money well spent ?

At least that extra 87000 people will help pay for our retirements due to Australia's ageing population.

Hey, wait a minute.......

LNP were right. We are living in the age of entitlement. Only it's not the locals that are entitled.

talkingturkey, 1482115623

Aussies on the punt chucking in 20 odd billion a year, half on the pokies! Andrew Wilkie, where are ya, mate? Time to go for a dip on the Great Barrier Reef and have a chin-wag with the Breakie numpties on commercial telly!?

talkingturkey, 1482115712

Except they're major sponsors of said telly stations?! Especially the Woolies/Coles pokies duopoly! Bugger!

blindboy, 1482132413

...........don't knock the pokies! Why shouldn't those poor addicted bastards do their bit to keep state taxes more affordable for us sensible types.

crustt, 1482176360

Because of people like my mum BB, who after my dad died hit the pokies and within a year was living on cheese sandwiches because she spent all of her war widows pension the day it came in at a pokie venue, who if she did not come in and swipe her card to get "free" drinks, they would send a card saying how much they missed her.
It's no fuckin joke BB, it's a disgrace to our society and so is your attitude!

floyd, 1482178762

I see Coles' owner Wesfarmers is now wanting a maximum $1 bet on pokies (they own about 3,000 of them) but "the gaming industry" and Woolies who own around 12,000 are opposing the move.

In a previous professional position I worked with problem gamblers from time to time, most of whom were on the down-low from their partners and families; pleading for more money to pay the mortgage because the bank was threatening foreclosure. It really is sad and rarely ends well without ongoing professional support. I am aware of one person who put $300k through pokies at a very small suburban club without staff lifting a finger. It only stopped when this person killed themselves.

mk1, 1482199105

Fucking pokies. Best pubs and bars are the ones with no machines. Should be illegal in my book but then that would probably impinge on someone's rights to wreck their lives.

blindboy, 1482206769

Sorry to have offended crust, sarcasm doesn't always work without the tone of voice. You are absolutely right. The poker machine industry is a total disgrace , not to mention all the licensees and overpaid club executives lining their already over full pockets by what is essentially pure theft. Screw them all and the politicians who allow it.

stunet, 1482207911

Yesterday on ABC 702 Tim Costello claimed NSW had 10% of the world's pokies which is extraordinary if it's true.

Today I went looking for verification but got befuddled by qualifiers - high payout machines, coin operated vs credit card. Pokies just ain't pokies it seems. The stats are there but they're friggen confusing, perhaps deliberately so.

tonybarber, 1482208519

Problem gambing is a problem but it ain't just restricted to pokies. You would have to include AFL, NRL punting also plus others. Maybe Wilkies dollar limit is a start. Blaming clubs or pollies is a bit hard. It's a general social issue as are many addictions.

crustt, 1482208942

No worries bb, sarcasm just does not work alot of times in print.

you should think about getting your hips done, had a mate just done it, used a 3d printer to make a copy of the original, if you get him to talk about it, it's like asking a born again about god. Rehab is no worse than hobbling round,cept it gets better

blindboy, 1482209472

Thanks crusst, surgery is still an option for sure and if things get worse I won't hesitate, but I was riding my 6'0" this morning and getting up normally so it is hard to justify at the moment. Other than surfing it has settled down to not much more than mild discomfort now and then. The physio has made a huge difference and, given neither my GP nor the specialist suggested it, I can only wonder how many people might avoid surgery if they were better informed.

mk1, 1482211850

My old man's fake hip became his strong one after recovery finished

udo, 1482212441

Yesterdays wave of the day pic..theres 2 strong ones there...as new .

floyd, 1482212525

@stu, your comment about numbers of pokies in NSW. I've heard similar claims about AU as a whole but if that isn't scary enough I've also heard that we have the highest bet machines in the world by a country mile (current maximum bet is $10); many machines overseas are very low bet machines like 5 or 10 cent bets. So comparing over numbers of machines to other countries can never be an accurate comparison in terms of the harm potential.

mk1, 1482212899

mk1, 1482212916

mk1, 1482212940

happyasS, 1482221305

ive come full circle on pokies. these days i couldn't care less if people want to waste their pay on it. its everyones right to blow half a weeks wage on expensive machines if they care. but at the same time its also my right to demand that my tax dollar doesnt reach those same people in welfare. sure its keeping the economy going around but its the wrong element of the economy in my opinion. if folk want to engage that element then fine, but not off my money thanks.

talkingturkey, 1482223968

You talking about pensioners then, Happy Arse? The pokies favourite punter...

Sheepdog, 1482224328

" but at the same time its also my right to demand that my tax dollar doesnt reach those same people in welfare. sure its keeping the economy going around but its the wrong element of the economy in my opinion. if folk want to engage that element then fine, but not off my money thanks."

Happy, it's not "your right" at all.... If an old age pensioner wants to blow their pension on the pokies, then have to scrape through on baked beans for a fortnight, that's their choice, not yours.... I don't like it.. But it's not my choice.... It's theirs....
I'm amazed at people getting their knickers in a knot over the portion of their tax that goes to pensioners, disabled, unemployed, but are mute when it comes to billions on our war participation in Syria, or handouts to Billionaires like Rinehart, or the countless dollars burnt on "housing affordability" enquiries that btw recommended NOTHING, or helicopter trips, or pork barrelling.......
But I suppose pensioners are easy targets... And it makes you "feel superior", it empowers you, even if that feeling is fleeting... And it a damn sight easier taking pot shots at those on the ladder rung below you than those above..... Aye, champ.. ;)

AndyM, 1482224642

Happy, to the best of my knowledge, gambling/pokies are addictive in the same way that drugs are.
If pubs and clubs were making money out of people by getting them into addictive drugs, where would you stand then from a moral and ethical point of view?

Blowin, 1482226010

Andy - pretty sure that already goes on.

It's known as a liquor licence.

Sheepy - it's possible to have an opinion on two seperate issues at the same time.

I've heard some people can maintain a stance on many topics for a variety of different reasons !

Crazy, huh ?

AndyM, 1482226347

Blowin I stand corrected.
I was thinking about "heavy" drugs but it's really easy to argue that alcohol fits into that category.

happyasS, 1482227529

SD. i should have clarified. im not talking about pensioners. in my mind the significant majority of the elderly pensioners have earned it. they can do what they please, their working life and economic contribution has passed and its our job as the taxpayers to repay them for their contribution by helping them. if their vice is the pokies then thats fine. rather, im talking about unemployment welfare. that type of welfare is not "earned". it is there to keep a basic standard of living for people so that they can get their lives up and going again. throwing it down the mouth of a machine whilst downing 5 beers does not help that cause.

talkingturkey, 1482227673

Doggo, nailed it...the strine-whine of the down-ward envying, coward-puncher...

happyasS, 1482229007

TT. since im atrociously slow. you'll have to explain to me step by step how it is cowardly.

happyasS, 1482230721

andy. same same. but im not talking ethics. im talking those blowing unearned cash on booze or pot (all 5 middle aged neighbors of my olds at that game) living in govt housing while treating the community and neighbourhood like shit and laying about all day talking crap while getting stoned. every couple of years its a different bunch. but nothing changes.

indo-dreaming, 1482391005

Just came across them but love these guys video's, tells it like it is.

https://youtu.be/bgRRGcoupDQ

talkingturkey, 1482394282

Happy Arse, punch up...not down. Cheap shots are for scaredy-cats...and cops.

sypkan, 1482394288

very funny indod

very very funny, that voice sounds like the guy usually bagging turnball, I thought he was a bit of a lefty, but clearly people are all over the shop these days.

watched his waleed video down the page also, very good interpretation. I like waleed but this guy sums him up beautifully re. manipulation and putting words in peoples mouths

should I know who that Lacey character is?

glad I don't

indo-dreaming, 1482395776

Yeah i watched the Waleed one also, i never use to mind Waleed and i use to hate Steve Price but since he has become the main man on the Panel his head is so up his arse and that's no easy feat and i actually like Steve now...not that i watch the Pannel very often.

I checked out the watched vids from that guy, which took me to this one, that was also pretty good.

talkingturkey, 1482396966

And he's a friggin' Aussie (singular)? Jeez. "Telling it like it is!" Right....................

I reckon that tech-nerd mug would be hate-wanking the skin off his nubbin over that Seppo chick as we speak.

"Take that, leftie bitch...fark yeah"

"Todd, what are you doing down there?"

"Shit...nothing, mum...just...just playing [insert kid's game of your choice]"

floyd, 1483060921

And so the noose tightens ..........

America gives 35 Russian diplomates 72 hours to leave the US and closes two Russian compounds ...... all because of their proven interference in the recent election.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/us-expels-35-russian-diplomats-closes-two-compounds--official-20161229-gtjn6i.html

Further, many Republicans are urging Obama's White House to take further action against Russia, which the White House is promising, all in defiance of the President-elect fucktard.

Oh the sweat irony of those Ruski hating Christian god loving dimwits voting just the way Putin wanted ... as they say only in America.

I'm still with BB, if he lasts the 4 years it will be a miracle.

talkingturkey, 1484098229

Gold, Jerry, Gold!

http://junkee.com/us-media-going-wild-claims-donald-trump-took-part-golden-showers-russia/93366

GuySmiley, 1484114591

While I am aware of the formal steps required to remove a president its hard to see Donald Trump lasting the distance. If he does its probable that the senate and congress will block his excesses to the point where he becomes a, I think the term Americans use, lame duck president. Easy to see China and Russia taking advantage of the situation, or at least attempting it. What a mess America and perhaps the world is in.

yocal, 1484279502

http://www.psychalive.org/practicing-with-trump/

Good breeds good, bad fuels bad

indo-dreaming, 1484296542

We can all thank Trump U2 aren't putting out their new album because he was elected.
http://downtrend.com/71superb/u2-wont-release-new-album-because-of-donald-trump

GuySmiley, 1484300245

I have found there is so much hate about on Trump's election mainly from his supporters. Its a really dark time.

Any, I like this post for two reasons; it shows how well Obama can body surf and Lou Reed's lyrics.

[IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/ff2xiu.png[/IMG]

sypkan, 1484398110

"When asked what he thought of “Western civilization,” Mohandas Gandhi is said to have replied that it sounded like a good idea. I think the same is true of “liberal internationalism,” "

"The trouble all along was that liberal internationalists overestimated the ease of turning a great power into a great defender of freedom—something that became even more difficult after the 9/11 attacks pushed the country back toward the kind of direct intervention it had rejected after the catastrophic war in Vietnam. It was difficult to “stay high” in the age of the War on Terror, and Obama ultimately failed to do so—unless raining security from the skies counts. And whether it came to constitutional, statutory, or international law, Obama’s lawyers always gave him a free hand to fight so long as he kept it humane—always a frightening legacy for future generations, but one that has become far scarier far more quickly than anyone imagined. Great power may not corrupt absolutely, but it rarely advances moral principle unerringly. And now Trump is in the cockpit of the American power liberal internationalists romanticized."

Anger guysmiley...there's quite a lot of anger around....hate is the wrong word....and besides...it's become too partisan anyway...

https:
//www
.dissentmagazine.org/article/left-foreign-policy-beyond-liberal-internationalism

talkingturkey, 1485241791

"Turkey's just here to "get some thought happening."

What would I do without your omnipotent wisdom TT??"

Just don't get it confused with your 'groupthink', Andy.

So...how's that Greens Population Policy above, comrade? I'm just stoked I could post a link of any kind to be honest...

talkingturkey, 1486530517

After Sippy's use of 'Dissent' above, here's one for you, Blindo...see what you think.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/02/07/the-choices-for-the-left-in-the-age-of-trump/

The view from Russia? Lemons? Make lemonade!

blindboy, 1486532375

Turkey I am not going into a detailed response to the article. If you go back to my original posts on Trump you will find that I expressed very specific concerns that do not significantly overlap with the arguments it puts forward. It is interesting that I am seen, simultaneously, as an extreme left winger (wrong) and a member of the liberal elite, (I would settle for any sort of elite!)

Blowin, 1486539419

Great article Turkey.

Blindboy won't respond because the article puts him nicely in his box .

But please BB , don't think you're being mistaken for the elite , you're more of the follower than the leader - "Surprisingly, the majority of “critically thinking” intellectuals turned into an easily managed and manipulated mass, without any personal opinions or will. "

But don't feel down , you're not alone .

blindboy, 1486540929

talkingturkey, 1486542351

Don't get too apoplectic/ecstatic there, Blowie. You do realise that 'Counterpunch' (like 'Dissent') are of the left...the real US left...not Liberal or Democrat?

I think the Russian bloke's big hole in this piece is in his kinda naive belief in taking Trump, & by default, Bannon, at their word.

I mean, "Trump also hinted that he is interested in educational reform, but did not offer any details" as a positive?!

Hello Boris...Betsy fucken DeVos?!

Anyway, gettin' you to read some Counterpunch, Blowie...can't be a bad thing

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/02/07/authoritarian-populism-viewing-trump-reviewing-thatcher/

Blowin, 1486552498

I'll read anything and appreciate it on its merits , Turkey.

Did you do the political compass test that was on one of these threads ?

I landed not far from Ghandi on the political spectrum so I'm not opposed to a bit of " left " thinking at all, in fact I wouldn't ever consider myself "right " except on positions of immigration whereby unless you're for unfettered cultural genocide then you're granted Conservative status these days.

In fact , as a blue collar sort of fella , I have more in common with the traditional left than the new fish hand wringers that mistake identity politics for societal progress.

What's your position ?

I never realised that this article could have been complimentary with your views and I assumed that, like BB , you'd rather shut your mind than consider any alternative opinions.

AndyM, 1486558186

Very good article by Boris Kagarlitsky, such a relief to read something measured, thoughtful and free of nonsense and hysteria - Russians can be pretty good like that.

Of course Trump is no threat to capitalism but the big question is, is he really a threat to neoliberalism as supposed by Kagarlitsky - is this the real reason why such a storm has been whipped up by the media? Correct me if I'm wrong but there was no storm like this when we invaded Iraq based on an obvious pack of lies. The media were almost totally compliant.
This to me says volumes.

And the last paragraph is absolutely spot-on and crucial. Unless the left divorces itself from political parties and to an extent political processes as controlled by the elites (how can you possibly call yourself "left" and support Obama/Clinton/the Democrats or for that matter, Australian Labor), they are doomed to be pawns, especially in such right-wing two-party systems.

Turkey -
https://www.politicalcompass.org

talkingturkey, 1486615297

Again, fellas, for the umpteenth time, let's not conflate the US, or the UK for that matter, and us too much.

It seems the Kagarlitsky article struck a chord, hey? I still think it's got some major holes. Mainly giving too much credence to what Trump and Bannon have been bleating about regarding workers and their concerns. Fuck, look at some of the appointments for starters, and extrapolate from there. Let alone their previous form. And what's not mentioned by Boris is anything about the environment. With Pruitt heading the EPA, for instance, how can you reconcile, Andy? Methinks, capitalism can rest REAL easy in their hands.
UNLESS!
The clown/horror show leads to some real change from without. A mobilisation. A real left mobilisation. The Democrats can adapt, remake, or die. Occupy Democrats! The BIG Takeover (now there's a soundtrack!)

How was the other article? Not floating the CB* boat?

How the corporate media over there is reacting is insane...and insanely entertaining. Will it take Trump for them to give someone like Chomsky some real air-time??
Strange daze, indeed.

Implications for here in Oz? Because we're not as degraded politically as the US, we can learn and avoid...hopefully. The whole neo-liberal experiment is under the pump. Labor are finally moving away from this tired 'third way' crap. It's glacial but the signs are definitely there. The policy positions have shifted noticeably in the years post-Rudd, mark 1. The move leftwards, economically, is happening. Frustratingly slow in this 'immediate' world, but there it is.
And on the other side, we have the unrepentant Turnbull, neo-liberal 'free marketeer' par excellence, with the same old failed economic dogma. Well, I say failed if we're referring to the majority of us. It works fine for its intended beneficiaries. Mal being the top percentile poster-boy of that pack of real deplorables.
While he blows a gasket in a fit of 'psychological projection' yesterday, his party gleefully shaft the little people again.

As for your compass tool, I always thought stuff like that was handy for people that are usually uninterested in politics (both big and small 'p', party political or personal). Engagement is good at whatever level, huh? And what happened to the ABCs version again??

And ain't waaaay left of Gandhi a good place to be, comrades.

*confirmation bias

AndyM, 1486620242

Just briefly, it doesn't seem unreasonable to point out some obvious comparisons between Australia, the U.K. and the States - all two party systems, all parties at least centre right and the party more to the left in all countries still does not represent social democratic ideals nor even many small "l" liberal ideals.
Turkey as I've said and as you also pointed out, capitalism is under no threat from Trump.
But when you ask me how I can reconcile Trump's appointment of Pruitt (with my environmental beliefs I assume), you infer that I support Trump.
Where did you get that idea from?

talkingturkey, 1486624135

It's far from being unreasonable, in fact it's useful, maybe even crucial, to point at comparisons between Western democracies, and what can be gleaned from them, just don't OVER-conflate.

For example, the Labour party in the UK under Corbyn has shifted noticeably to the left. Definitely moreso than the Labor party here. But then things are more dire. Witness the corporate media's treatment of Corbyn! And don't get me started on Scotland!

And in the US, Sanders has been a phenomenon in the context of their politics. I don't think I would've imagined in my lifetime a major candidate ever uttering the word 'socialism', owning it (even though it is a mild 'socialism'), and not being torn to shreds by the media over there.

Things are afoot (left).

Trump as nothing more than catalyst in the US? Is this where your previous statement, "Trump's the best thing to happen to world politics for a long time" fits in, Andy? Short term pain, long time gain? Strap yourself in, it's gonna be real bumpy.

talkingturkey, 1486630133

Frankie Boyle on the bampot in chief:

"I actually think Donald Trump is going to prove a lot of people wrong, but sadly not George Orwell, Margaret Atwood, or whoever wrote the Book of Revelation. It says a lot about the man that building a giant wall isn’t even in the top five most Game of Thrones things about him. Of course, presidents always enter office with something to prove, it’s just rarely their sanity."

Read it and weep. God blast America!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/08/donald-trump-obnoxious-karma-reincarnated-as-himself-frankie-boyle

blindboy, 1486635248

The complete and horrible truth about Trump. But somehow still funny.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n04/sidney-blumenthal/a-short-history-of-the-trump-family

Blowin, 1486635264

just realised I don't give a fuck......buuuurp.

Blowin, 1486635648

Blowin, 1486637609

Blowin, 1486637636

[quote=blindboy]The most perceptive piece yet written about him.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html[/quote]

.

Blowin, 1486637792

"Be afraid........very afraid. God fuck Amerika "

Blindboy.

Blowin, 1486638677

I just learnt a great new word.

Fremdschamen .

Here's looking at you , BB !

talkingturkey, 1486638986

Blindy's got a stalker, Blindy's got a stalker...

Blowin, 1486639569

I can't help myself Turkey.

Surely you're seeing what I'm seeing.

It's gold.

AndyM, 1486646142

Yeah you got it Turkey, probably short term pain, hopefully long term gain.
I'm also optimistic that people in Australia are finally waking up and getting to the stage where they might demand real change from the jokers in the major parties.

Gaz1799, 1486680518

I'm with you AndyM I'd like to think people are slowly waking up here too. Definitely a few parallels with Aus & USA in this respect I reckon, but compulsory voting makes it tougher to change things.
It's a shame we're gonna have to vote for a bunch of riff raff parties and endure our own 4 years of pain to dislodge the major parties tho. Westminster system is a crock.

After hearing about the liberal backbenchers bitching about the lifetime travel card being cut up I'll be tempted to vote Bernardi Conservatives in the senate & Greens in the lower house just to watch the place burn to the ground.

tonybarber, 1486687249

Yes, there is no doubt there is a change happening here. But who or what will be the 'Trump' card ? Bernardi - this stage cant see it. Hansen - she is growing but she will only diminish the Libs. So we are left with Shorty. Can he break out of his puppet mould ? Greens are self destructing.

GuySmiley, 1486854970

Insiders on ABC TV is back today, god I missed it and brilliant work like this ........ highly recommended.

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2016/s4618441.htm

tworules, 1486860493

thanks guy, the more you try to ignore it the more you miss