Health Research

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blindboy started the topic in Monday, 14 Aug 2017 at 8:00pm

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CryptoKnight commented Monday, 30 Apr 2018 at 10:58pm

'The opinions of scientists and doctors, outside their fields of expertise, have no more weight than those of a non-scientist.'

'World-renowned in the fields of neuroscience and genetics, Dr. Rudolph Tanzi is the Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard Medical School. He also serves as Vice-Chair of Neurology and Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital. . Dr. Tanzi is considered a visionary scientist and great communicator.'

Please stop, please evolve, evolve with us blinde. Let the fear go. I forgive you. Rudy... Rudy... is only helping you. No need to fear... anymore!!! Don't blow up any more genes, blinde?! Forgive the prawn. For goodness sake. Its old news, the wild colonial boy. It seemed a great idea at the time, but it doesn't go well in the end. You know that.

'Yeh totally screwed, hips gone, sacro-iliac stuffed, brain turned to jello, gut turned into a methane production unit.'

In a nutshell, please evolve blinde. Don't be a swillnut forever.

In a nutshel, don't fear Richo on that twinnie any longer either. The one that won that big barrel riding comp against all the thrusters, that the official swillnuts 'proved' was shit in the barrel. The, to quote the legendary winner, 'best board ever in the barrell' The swillnuts are afraid of a lot of things. Its enough to make their...

In a nutshell, never let the truth stand in a way of a good story!!!

Evolve blinde!!! I know you can do it!!!!?

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blindboy commented Tuesday, 1 May 2018 at 8:11am

Tanzi's work as far as I can determine has been in the genetics of Alzheimer's and other neurological diseases. If he has published anything to support the claims made in his pop science books, I cannot find it. As it stands then it is fair comment to say that these assertions are outside his field of expertise. If you have evidence of publications relating to these claims, provide the links.

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blindboy commented Tuesday, 1 May 2018 at 11:32am

The video is a classic of pseudo-science. Get some one with qualifications and (if possible) credibility in a related field. Start off with an image of scientific equipment. Use scientific vocabulary and hey presto......it's proven factual science.......except it's not. Let me deconstruct some of the arguments here. Let's start with evolution since it is generally poorly understood. He claims that human evolution has a direction towards greater development of the frontal cortex. The problem is that, as you would learn in Evolution 101, ......... Evolution has no direction. What this means is that a past evolutionary trend in one direction is not evidence that the trend will continue. These trends often reverse themselves. Consider the extinct dwarf elephant from Flores. The trend towards increased size in elephant evolution reversed once the species was isolated on an island. In human terms the trend to greater brain size reversed itself after the Neanderthals. Our brains are smaller. So implying a future direction for the evolution of the human brain is profoundly unscientific. If we dig a bit deeper into the evidence from mice on the impact of brain states on gene function again we hit major problems. The first is that the fundamental cause of these changes are not the changes in the brain but the changes in the environment. Yes if you stress mice their gene function will change and these changes are inevitably mediated by the brain since, as Doc Tanzi emphasises, all sensory data is interpreted by the brain, but to say that the brain causes the changes in gene function is profoundly and dangerously misleading. The reasons for this go beyond science and into economics and politics. The neoliberal creed is one of personal responsibility and how better to emphasise that than to claim that positive thinking is the cure all for our problems. This is ammunition for the blame-the-victim Neo-liberal Warriors. Whatever problems you have are the result of your poor thought processes and have nothing to do with our inadequate funding of basic services such as child care, education and health. Any realistic analysis of personal health must include the environment. Our pre-frontal cortex does give us the potential for greater emotional control but, as the evening news always demonstrates, this is far from absolute. If we want a better world we need to change the world, create better healthier environments. Do that and our brains and behaviour will follow along. Sitting and studying your navel is certainly calming but it takes us no nearer to the world we should be leaving for future generations.

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CryptoKnight commented Tuesday, 1 May 2018 at 4:22pm

I forgive you blinder!!! Again!!!

'Whatever problems you have are the result of your poor thought processes and have nothing to do with our inadequate funding of basic services such as child care, education and health. Any realistic analysis of personal health must include the environment.'

Which boils down to an expression of poor thought process. Change the thoughts, change the environment.

Traditional Indigenous Australians got it, as the record shows, better than anyone.

I knew you would want to get Doc Tanzi. Its the old, do a job on him. The wild west, getting wilder. In the old days he would have been flayed and torched by now. Its a much more cunning approach now.

Its like watching a drop tail skink fighting its own tail!

Your comments show no understanding, and real, valid, result producing experience, especially re meditation.

As you highlight, this is your actual result. That you cling to, frozen with fear of the unknown. Ignoring results. The wild colonial 'foundation'.

Which, in your own words, produced,

'Yeh totally screwed, hips gone, sacro-iliac stuffed, brain turned to jello, gut turned into a methane production unit.'

Anyway, thankfully the eminent Doc Tanzi, a gun in the fields that you are witch hunting, won't be fazed. Luv ya work Doc Tanzi!

"I had folks emailing me, ex-mentors — Nobel laureates — saying, 'Rudy have you lost your mind?' Luckily neither Rob nor I have a really good track record of listening to people."

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/02/18/580475245/scientist...

I forgive you blinde!!!

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blindboy commented Tuesday, 1 May 2018 at 5:51pm

His work on Alzheimer's is irrelevant. Tell me again what the huge breakthrough is? Thinking influences gene expression? Jesus H Christ crypto, tell me something that doesn't influence gene expression. Eating exercise, breathing, shiny things, everything influences gene expression that's how we work, that's how cells work. We agree that indigenous culture flourished in an environment managed to maximise well being. We also agree that our current environment does not do this. We disagree on how this might be changed. You appear to be suggesting the contemplation of navels. I suggest a collective removal of arses from positions of comfort and being active in the world. As I said above don't fall for Neo-liberal nonsense, it is not all about personal responsibility it is about working together to create something better.

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CryptoKnight commented Thursday, 3 May 2018 at 12:48am

Regarding this comment about Doc Tanzi, a world renowned, recognized expert and teacher in neurology and genealogy, at the highest level.

'His work on Alzheimer's is irrelevant.'

No, in a nut shell, you couldn't be more wrong blinde. But, then again, never underestimate the power of conditioning, maybe you could!!? God knows, no doubt, you'll give it your all?!

http://reset.me/story/using-neuroplasticity-to-be-smarter-and-happier/

But, in a nutshell, swillnuts never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!

The truth about thoughts, and the brain changes and devolpment throw much light on the development of Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures, and the evolution and creation of their brains, and their expression, their not even remotely matched success and results, compared to the opposite scenario, the bloodbath and overall environmental disaster that is the western expression and result.

Yet, it is so exciting, evolve blinde!!! Save yourself from your projection, your expression.

'Yeh totally screwed, hips gone, sacro-iliac stuffed, brain turned to jello, gut turned into a methane production unit.'

' You appear to be suggesting the contemplation of navels. '

In a nutshell, this reflex jab, shows a huge lack of knowledge and experience... again. but that's ok, evolve!!! Its totally doable!!!

Love ya work Doc Tanzi and co!

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blindboy commented Thursday, 3 May 2018 at 4:08pm

Crypto, I never thought that you could be so easily swayed by an authority figure. Neuroplasticity is old news, last decade stuff and like many interesting scientific developments before it, think human genome project, it has been over-hyped and used opportunistically to claim all sorts of possibilities that will never quite emerge. Doc Tanzi is just another over excitable type, prone to forget that scepticism is the backbone of science. Don't believe it until the data is there.

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batfink commented Friday, 4 May 2018 at 12:35pm

Welcome back CK, in your new guise. As Southey said, I spend a bit too much time working and not flitting about on the webs and look what I've missed.

BB, I'd suggest that fighting it is not necessarily the best course of action. There is a lot of not very humble truth in CK's meanderings, and it's worth trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

On genes generally, I am playing around with a new idea. I suspect science may come towards this, that we are not much more than programmed robots, with genes as the code, and that even individual momentary thoughts and actions may be entirely programmed for us. We might not be individuals at all, or even beings as we currently understand the term.

Mere fleshy robots. Perhaps we are just slaves to our genes, on a much deeper and more specific level than currently considered possible - free willed humans in a free environment.

Maybe not.

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CryptoKnight commented Friday, 4 May 2018 at 2:01pm

Why thank you batfink. Yeh, brokeback chicken soufll'e is always busy main manning the 4 major coastlines that he pioneered (wiv a boawt)... the WC's SA & Vic, NW and SW WA, not mention Rotto. And not to mention that devastating, almost wave of the millennium wipeout... that lead to the highchair... now Gary's domain.

Humble?

'Hey everyone hows the mind blowing sunset! Come and check out the light show, nature in its full glory!'

'Yeh, righto sunset, tone it down ya smart arse cunt!'

'Shit its barely a flicker, pretty dull too.'

'Yeh exactly mate, its a real little humble beauty hey.'

Sounds like an invention of one of Liz and Phil's lot, 'humble', to keep the serf's and uppity slaves in line. Fuck that. Works wonders for them though, as they ride the gold encrusted chopper down to visit the grandy's. Zombie humblers waving their flags up at 'em, hoping they'll chuck a bit of corgi shit out on em, or even a stuffed corgi, to mount on the mantle piece.

Nah, you can have that batfink.

'The opinions of scientists and doctors, outside their fields of expertise, have no more weight than those of a non-scientist.'

'His work on Alzheimer's is irrelevant.'

Nah totally wrong blinde. Don't blame you for dodging it. You can breath in and eat as much sand as you like, but, it's, the truth, plain as day.

Boydo (not to be confused with bordo) sinks it home in her vid.

'Crypto, I never thought that you could be so easily swayed by an authority figure.'

Nah, the memory blinde... evolve son!!!

You forgot what doc said... again.

"I had folks emailing me, ex-mentors — Nobel laureates — saying, 'Rudy have you lost your mind?' Luckily neither Rob nor I have a really good track record of listening to people."

He's gunning em down blinde, him and his gang... ya gotta love it. The nerve of bringing 2pack Chakras into the hallowed science halls! He's gunning yas down blinde!!!

'Yeh totally screwed, hips gone, sacro-iliac stuffed, brain turned to jello, gut turned into a methane production unit.'

In a nutshell, no doubt ya methane's got a bite to it blinde, and by all accounts its not humble, but ya gotta bring more to the party than that son!

Luv ya work doc!

By the way, hows that wave of the day... I bet he's praying its a humble cunt!

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CryptoKnight commented Friday, 4 May 2018 at 4:33pm

Evolve blinde... over this way son!!! Don't go over the cliff, with em, into slattsey's ayahuasca pond, don't do it... let em go ... please, not again blinde!!!

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blindboy commented Friday, 4 May 2018 at 5:41pm

No worries there crypto, I am doing lots of surfing, lots of other exercise, doing masses of serious reading, still working (3 days, hence all the surfing), feeling pretty free, making music with some old mates, cruising the coast when it's worth the effort. Always get a laugh from your posts.

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CryptoKnight commented Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:40pm

I like it blinder. Stoked that you are making more music, I am privileged to have a genuine example of your musical insights and talent. And stoked the window's now open and the methane has evacuated. Plus I must admit, although it was never in doubt, Im somewhat flattered that my posts are considered serious reading.

Yeh, laughter is the best medicine... and it gives me great comfort to know that you are laughing with me, not at me...

I still hold a vision, of you hooking into one, a bomb, the jungle framing one side, the purple coral glinting through the glass, and despite the ban, unable to hold back the claim... as you scream out and carve into channel, only to see...

Shit, no, no don't go it crypt... oh no... no... nooo... oh yeh... oh yeh, yeh... Yeh... YEh... YEH... YYYEEEEHHHH... YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS...
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

This reminds me so much of blax blinder, and that Twinnie Ledge too. But see, there's this other bay. A long, long way from slattsey's pond. Not even remotely close.

Practice the YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWSSSSSSSS blinder!!! Because even though you'll try, God knows you'll try, it will just burst out, uplifting, and methane free!!!

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blindboy commented Monday, 7 May 2018 at 6:44pm

Yeh it's all good crypto, just taking the piss out of myself with the earlier comments, though there is a bit of wear and tear on the under-carriage. I just keep it strong and mobilised and no problem. Sorry for the slow reply we have been cruising the south coast off network looking for the right spot for our escape from the big smoke.

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CryptoKnight commented Monday, 7 May 2018 at 11:13pm

That sounds deluxe.

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CryptoKnight commented Tuesday, 8 May 2018 at 12:27am

Hot of the press!!!! Better late than never!!!! 'Breakthrough' (sic) nutrition!! Advance Australia fair!!! 'Long term (sic) study'!!!???

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180507074212.htm

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blindboy commented Tuesday, 8 May 2018 at 8:12am

OK it's omelettes, not fish cakes! Particularly in the Maldives, the Mercury data is scary there. I would bet the levels would be high around Lombok and Sumbawa too from its use in gold mining.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180503142644.htm

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blindboy commented Saturday, 26 May 2018 at 5:09pm

More to add to the mounting evidence that surfing is dangerous to your health. We really need to let people know about this. We could be breathing in anything.
https://scripps.ucsd.edu/news/researchers-identify-bacteria-and-viruses-...

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O-Men commented Monday, 11 Jun 2018 at 10:24pm

I haven't read this whole thread yet but I can unreservedly say that the quacks have got it terribly wrong, the amount of protein recommended for adults is insanely underestimated to the point that it is the driving force behind the global obesity epidemic . Try more than 50% of daily calories from protein for maximum health. Carbs are used by the body to fuel intense excercise.
Edit:Govt recommendation is 0.7g per kg of lean body mass. For maximum health you would need around 4-6g of protein per kg of body weight . And for most of us looking for good health it's going to be about 2-4g. 0.7g of protein per kg body mass is PATHETIC and is killing millions. If you're doing marathons, triathlons or lots of endurance type exercise you will need more carbs but you are also taxing you're health and are at risk of some nasty inflammatory diseases. Just ask all the enduros who died spontaneously ,some of who still walk with pacemakers in their chests. The foundation of every meal should be a quality protein source best of all meat. Every few hours is ideal too so that's meat five times a day. If you surf regularly and have to paddle hard you can almost maximise you're cardio vascular potential and get strong too but if you love surfing large heavy waves you're gonna surf heaps better if you do some heavy, explosive , short duration training, ideally with heavy weights , with or without a gym.

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O-Men commented Monday, 11 Jun 2018 at 8:32pm

Protein regulates appetite. Carbs and fats have little leverage over appetite.

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O-Men commented Wednesday, 13 Jun 2018 at 10:13am

I'm gunna talk about deadlifts here. Ok freeride was asking about deadlifts. Such a good question given its deep relevance to surfing. The deadlift is actually the most fundamental and least complicated action our bodies can make. It is what we are doing when we bend over and pick something up. We are all practically born deadlifting, way before we can walk. If you take off and drop vertically 15 or 20 feet on a wave, crouch right down and let the fins n tail dig, fk me you're gonna be deadlifting through the g out point to project along your line. You're deadlifting more than your body weight . Because deadlifts are the most natural of all trainable movements I always teach it first. And due to its application to surfing it is one of the only training exercises that I would train surfers in.

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O-Men commented Wednesday, 13 Jun 2018 at 10:53pm

Had a bit more of a look at the thread now, that video of the bloke with the hex bar is downright quirky , that's a bad way to do deadlifts. The execution looks good and the advise is on execution is good ( however a bit lean as CK said ). But it's just not the most effective deadlift. The hex bar limits range of movement and also limits overload, overload being the resistance which provides the growth. The more overload you can handle the more effective the lifts. One should always get medical clearance before embarking on a lifting program and if there are back injuries or anomalies then the whole approach might need to be modified, not just deadlifts (surfing is also way out of the question in that case). However if you're good to go then this is the best way. The deadlift should be thought of as a back exercise. Use a straight bar only, set it below the knees in height . Set your feet at about shoulder width and parallel to each other so they point straight ahead. Have the bar rest against your shins. Now with regards to you're back , you need to maintain the natural posture and movement of the spine right through the the lift (ie how your back is when you stand tall). You're going to bend down and grab the bar just outside the legs with both palms facing backwards (the double overhand grip, use straps too.). Just as you go to lean forewards make sure your butt moves backwards and as you feel the lower back muscles engage, slightly squeeze the abdominals to lock in the lower back. You should also have a good breath of air and hold it because this pressurises the body cavity and gives it firmness. Keep your chest out a bit and your shoulders back slightly, not much. When you grab the bar your back needs to be very close to horizontal so that your shoulders are very slightly above or even level with your hips. This is one of the problems with the hex bar method in the vid, the body is way too upright. This is important, you need to have your body right over the bar for maximum strength and power. It is much safer than being more upright, because it is more natural, maintaining a less natural forced position takes more thought. Sooo many push the upright deadlift because "there is more leg drive and the legs are stronger" but this is false . The upright method isolates the front of the legs more and has the shins leaning forewards too much, putting knees in a bad position, also you won't pull the bar through the knees, hence the silly hex bar. The back of the legs is stronger than the front ,and the hamstring, glute, lumbar spine combination is far stronger than the quads in isolation. Isolation always limits overload. Now you're going to pull the bar up until you are standing upright with the bar at your waist. Just as you are about to pull it up, take a moment to make sure the bar is close to your shins and tense up so that you don't slump forewards as the bar leaves the floor. Your weight needs to be centred just forewards of your heals, keep your heals on the ground , don't let the lower back round off and don't flex it the other way either. Now as you launch , with your legs ,keep the back in this almost horizontal position until the bar clears the knees then start straightening at the hips to keep the bar close to the thighs. Stand upright ,don't lean back and don't pull the shoulders right back. Take a new breath and lower the bar the same way you raised it. Place it on the floor, reset ,and go again. This exercise is one of the most potent , effective movements because it uses all of the muscles at once and provides the largest stimulus in the shortest time with the least energy spent. Start light to get the feel of it and you only need to do two sets one day a week. Start with weight you can use for ten reps and after a couple of months , fast progress will be made with an eight rep max. Even heavier and maximum results will come from a 4-6 rep max. Progressively add weight until you're satisfied that you can rip any wave a new arsehole and then just lift the same weight for maintenance . Note if the bar is hitting the knees you are not staying over the bar for long enough or the weight may be too hvy. As for videos there is a bloke called Skip La Cour , he is a legendary drug free bodybuilder and a consummate deadlift master. You won't see any more effective execution than his. Not much video on the net but you should watch his entire back workouts if you can find em. I'll try to put something up if I can, if anyone's interested, if Freeride is still lookin, there you go mate.

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freeride76 commented Thursday, 14 Jun 2018 at 9:53am

sweet, cheers mate.

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happyasS commented Thursday, 14 Jun 2018 at 6:30pm

A protein requirement of 6g per kg of bodyweight is equivalent to a 100kg bloke eating 1.8kg of chicken everyday.

Right up front I question the source of this information.

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O-Men commented Thursday, 14 Jun 2018 at 8:56pm

Chicken is about 20% protein raw so at 100 kg body weight that's 3kg of chooks.

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O-Men commented Friday, 15 Jun 2018 at 7:19pm

Paul Delia , founder of Ast-ss, and Paul Cribb, metabolic physiologist, created the Max-Ot training series in the 90s for the development of maximum human strength and fitness , ( health). They had two representative athletes, Skip La Cour and Jeff Willet , who both achieved the most astounding results on the program. They were consuming more than 6g of protein per kg of body weight during their off season training. I've lived by their philosophy to various degrees over 23 years and apart from being one of the most profound learning experiences , I can easily see how those blokes could achieve what they did , steroid free, despite what the armchair critics say. Nobody who disputes what these blokes claim have actually tried the prescription. Usually they say ," That's too much protein" or , " That training philosophy is incorrect." . But they have never even come close to trying it. Scientists are only just now , after all this time since the bogus studies, revisiting this dietary protein topic in an effort to get a grip on this massive global health problem , modern inflammatory diseases. Soon , it seems, about 1.2g protein per kg bw will be the recommendation but Paul Cribb has been doing studies on humans with double that at 2.4g/kg with nothing but positive results. He says that, now , good studies are showing even better health benefits from higher level intakes and that people consuming way over 3G/kg show absolutely zero detriment to kidneys , or any part of the body ,only healthy results . There's a pattern emerging too. Look at a study by Stephen Simpson and David Raubenheimer called," Obesity , The Protein Leverage Hypothesis" , which draws on a proven fact ,that protein is the appetite regulator, to suggest that if we don't meet the target, we're gonna eat too much energy trying. The pattern looks may suggest that you really can't eat too much protein, or its damned hard to at worst.

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CryptoKnight commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 8:41am

Are you using the same mass machine prohormones and drugs, glenbuterol, ephedrine etc, that Skip Lecour used when competing O-men. Although they were legal in bodybuilding competition back then in the US, even back then they were illegal in most sports and athletics? He was much more open about it early on. And, I mean Ronnie is drug free too, as was Lance and co.

Also re your deadlifting comments, they are absolutely, irrefutably totally incorrect. And that has been proven at the most elite level, far beyond the likes of 'natural' bodybuilding. Maybe you have never used a hexbar? The links I previously posted, and have re - posted here, totally, unequivocally quash your comments.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/money-lift-how-top-flight-trainer-dis...

https://bretcontreras.com/if-you-could-only-do-one-lift/

http://main.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/1352/T...

As for that common, two stage, hips rising too early technique you describe O- men, that is the 'form' used by many people who's back's I have successfully rehabbed.

Lecour's video's rare? Anyone can find them with ease. I read all his stuff, years ago when he was in vogue in the bodybuilding mags and world. You can still find it all with minimal effort.

His last secret 'breakthrough', which these days actually is really rare and impossible to find, was the mass machine super supplements, which... well... anyway. Really?

Bodybuilding. The total opposite to peak athletic performance. A competition ready bodybuilder is incapable of maximum athletic performance. The techniques and knowledge required to compete in any bodybuilding contest, are as far removed from health, well being and athletic performance as could be possible. I've trained body builders who have done well, and always advise them to go in another direction, for their well being. However, they are a special breed, like anorexics reversed.

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O-Men commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 8:29am

Hey Cryp can you please find us online footage from Skip's "Packing on Muscle Max-Ot style." , video two, deadlifts for "back" . Where ,towards the end of his competitive career , he demonstrates the penultimate deadlift execution, with the double overhand grip and the horizontal back position. Cheers mate. Family fun in the sun then later I will explain briefly why the base level almost science, non deluxe , nor elite, opinion you presented is, well, bunkum, inappropriate and impertinent .

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zenagain commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 8:55am

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

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CryptoKnight commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 9:17am

Hey o-men, can you please comment on the mass of irrefutable evidence at the elite level irrefutably and unequivocally quashing your hexbar deadlift comments. Maybe start with this one. that's if your not too busy or exhausted comp prepping or eating? Maybe start with this one.

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/money-lift-how-top-flight-trainer-dis...

And can you please answer whether or not you used the same mass machine prohormones and drugs, glenbuterol, ephedrine etc, that Skip Lecour used when competing O-men. Although they were legal in bodybuilding competition back then in the US, even back then they were illegal in most sports and athletics. He was much more open about it early on. And, I mean Ronnie is drug free too, as was Lance and co.

Here's Lacour deadlifting.

And no, the first sloppy swing is actually a row, so don't mistake that for his deadlift, and the second sloppy swing is actually a lat pulldown, so don't mistake that for a hip hinge either. If you go to the 6 minute mark you see his form where he tries to keep his hips down in the proper muscle developing form. If you go to the 8 minute mark where commonly he is not strong enough for the weight he tries to impress with, and too lazy to do that, he commonly tries to set the same position, but lo and behold his hips rise up too early and the common freestyle, zen like, useless two stage pull kicks in.

This world champion sports and athlete trainer describes that too common sloppiness and weakness like this.

'Like most trainers, Flaherty is a stickler for form, and he calls these microscopic movement dysfunctions “power leaks.” I have more than a single power leak, including one that stems from an underdeveloped vastus medialis obliques, otherwise known as the teardrop-shaped part of the quadriceps that sits inside the knee.

To ultimately improve my hex-bar deadlift, he says, I need to “plug those leaks” and restore balance and efficiency of movement with a series of smaller exercises.

'(According to Flaherty, the popular canon of complex bilateral movements, like squats and Olympic lifts, actually mask those little deficiencies, so it’s important to look for them.)'

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/money-lift-how-top-flight-trainer-dis...

And ooooh, can you please find where we can get the amazing Lacour mass producing secret supplement range? (But not the the same mass machine prohormones and drugs, glenbuterol, ephedrine etc, that Skip Lecour used when competing O-men. Although they were legal in bodybuilding competition back then in the US, even back then they were illegal in most sports and athletics.)

Cheers mate!

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happyasS commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 11:43am

The 6min mark is a submaximal deadlift. He can lift this way (low hips) because the submaximal weight doesn't require full engagement of the posterior chain. His deadlift then becomes a more quad dominant deadlift such as used to train for the clean.

At the 6.40 minute mark he has increased the weight and low and behold before the weight comes off the floor the hips rise to a point that engages the posterior chain.

Full engagement of the posterior chain for a heavy deadlifts requires higher hips. Anatomy says so, not me. Maximal deadlifts never come off the floor with low hips.

The 8min mark is very sloppy form.

Some people don't get injured backs because they are genetic freaks.

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CryptoKnight commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 2:15pm

Gidday happyaaS, regarding this comment:

'Full engagement of the posterior chain for a heavy deadlifts requires higher hips. Anatomy says so, not me. Maximal deadlifts never come off the floor with low hips.'

Maybe not maximal for you guys, but here you see how hard deadlifting legend Green fights to pre-stretch load, and simultaneously keep his hips down, and then fights to drive them forward rather than let them pop up into that high position.

Also, in this world record lift below at the 10 minute mark, again, maybe submaximal for swillnuts, in a nutshell, using the low hip prestretch, the weight is simultaneously pulled off the floor with the lifter fighting to not let the hips pop up, but rather drive them under the shoulders. Then jump to the 12 minute mark, to see that world record broken, and an even a lower hip, more upright position held throughout the lift. Again though, perhaps sub maximal in a nutshell... for swillnuts. Also keep watching for a little while for the real world consequences of creating maximum (again... not for swillnuts though) pressure and tension.

I work each year with Australia's strongest men in a deadlifting scenario. Its easy to find on the gym website. If you want to go down that maximal loading road, be prepared for dealing with constant injury, constant pain, and regularly bulged discs. Its par for the course. Strong men, including elite power lifters, don't retire because they want to, the injuries, usually back and hip related, force them to in the end.

But I agree happyasS, There are many ways, and thus reasons to lift, including deadlift. For health, well being and maximum athletic improvement, as I pointed out in the deadlifting videos I posted in the muscles thread, I always use a low hip, relatively upright, less spinal shear force, style for my clients and self where more quad is required. Even with the straight bar. And relatively higher reps for both hypertrophy, fitness (includes functional range athletic flexibility), and also longevity.

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happyasS commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 3:22pm

CK.

Agree, doing maxes is retarded unless your getting paid for it. I go to the waves to risk injury, not the gym. As they say, 1rm's don't build strength, they test it.

As always, a picture (or Dan Green vid) is worth a thousand words, so as it turns out, we are actually in agreement regards hip position. Nice post.

I've been enjoying learning the subtleties of correct form over the past few months. Its surprising as the weights increase how much more attention to form you start paying. Tiny adjustments here and there and when your not happy then reset and start again. Slow and steady wins the race.

Nice talking.

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CryptoKnight commented Saturday, 16 Jun 2018 at 3:59pm

Gidday happyasS

I thought you'd like it. Here Green actually address's the topic of why the common high hips, such as Lacour's aren't at all desirable, both for deadlifting performance and overall athleticism and full body development. Especially in the long run. 1.30 minute mark. But totally addressing that exact scenario, and all the points in your initial comment, even about form with lighter and heavier weights, at the 4.35 mark right through 7.30 mark. You can see he is in the position, or hips lower, with much better torso position and activation also, which Lacour aims for with a lighter weight, but isn't strong enough, or focused enough to maintain as the weights go up. Which is the goal.

World record holder Hall, keeps hips very low and doesn't lose any power through them popping up.

Have a good one happyasS.

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O-Men commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 12:47am

Cryp, you didn't find a link to "Packing on Muscle Max Ot Style" , disc2, deadlifts for back , where Skip demonstrates the best execution for the barbell deadlift, which is remarkably similar to the vast majority of the lifts in the deadlift world championships videos you posted. I don't think it's legal to display it here, for copyright reasons , and I don't think there's a link so I guess that makes it somewhat rare. I recommend it for the demonstration of the most effective form for stimulating muscle to grow. But it's ok , the common footage you put up is still almost as good as it gets and the viewers can also get a look at the proper , natural technique for Pulldowns, Barbell Row and Cable row.
You have posted quite a bit of reading material here and it would take a long time to comment about every aspect of every study, but I don't think it's necessary and in fact the info you put here supports what I am saying about deadlifting and training for surfing.
The "Stronger by Science" page appears to be claiming that the hex bar is a better exercise than the barbell deadlift. But it only proves and (somewhat) quantifies the obvious, with some kinematic (mechanical action) analysis , that the lifts are different. One , hex bar,favouring a quite upright starting position , almost identical to the low bar squat, and the other, lifting the bar from in front of the body in a more horizontal starting position. It's important to discuss the low bar squat, ( bar sits across the rear and middle delts), which is also a much better option than the high bar squat( bar high up on the traps at ur neck), and the hex bar dead.
Wow the "Top Flight Trainer" page, really what can I say? Is this for real? Maybe I'm spending too much time on this . There's nothing here. Does this guy know as much about lifting as say, Mark Rippetoe, or Steven Tikkanen? No.
The Glute Guy , once again nothing significant to see here , sorry. He likes the hex bar dead for a 'one exercise program', but then he rules it out in favour of high bar squats and barbell deads in his three exercise program, much better this way but , low bar squats are even better.
This poliquin Group page, the confounded evidence, just goes on and on. The introduction states the truth that squats are the " king" of lifts with the deadlift a close second. " - and one of the best is the hex bar deadlift. They mention a study (July 2001 Journal of Strenght and Conditioning) , claim that the hex bar reduces 'stress?' On the erector spinae muscles and puts more on the quads. Well we already know that but it doesn't mean it's better
Oh here we go again, Dan Green , how's his setup proceedure Ay? See how, even after the "twang" , where the bar bends upwards by inches to almost knee level, BANG!, up go the hips to the full prosterior chain engagement position, when he talks about this hip 'issue' , in the later video, he is surely bound heavily by modern oh&s, or whs ect ,paranoia about blame for people training with injury or getting injured. He then goes on to demonstrate some very strict, exaggerated upright form , different from his heavy lifts. And he also shows the ( undesirable ) hips higher than the shoulders form, like stiff leg deads, form which is more stiff legged than Skips.
The deadlift championships video is very entertaining ,thank you, and well they don't call it power lifting for nuthin I suppose. There is a very short split second, which is hard to see in some cases , where all the lifts involve the hips rising very slightly in a two stage motion as the bar leaves the ground. Some have weird anatomies like stumpy legs, where they must lift more upright, and in every case there is the inevitable 'twang' where before the bar leaves the ground, it bends right up to the knee , reducing it from a full range deadlift. If they could use a stiffer bar they'd be pulling from lower and well... You know.
Deadlifting properly with a bar doesn't cause back injury any more than long term high protein intake causes kidney damage. If there is an underlying problem, don't load your back up, don't surf, get it checked out. Think about this, what about stiff legged deadlifts? Surely they are insanely stupid. Truth is they are a very good hamstring exercise and don't cause back injury, yet the shoulders go right down past the hips with the legs almost straight.
But we are surfers here right? Training is for improving surfing so I'm not saying do bodybuilding or powerlifting at a professional level. I've used hex bar for deads a lot a long time ago. It's not worth investing 150+ bucks for with its limited use and clumsy performance. There is more evididence and professional opinion out there against it than for it. Mark Ripptoe has a lot of info about deadlift and he advises not to focus on keeping the hips down too much, this is a common mistake. I was trained in the deadlift by Steven Tikkanen , he has coached all of Australia's top Olympic lifters ,being Australias Olympic Coach for ever now. I now teach it the way he taught me.
Let's get things in perspective a bit, surfers really need to have a powerful prosterior chain, nothing better than standard barbell deadlifts. Strong legs, low bar squats. Best to do both if you can.
I think the hex bar squat, or deadlift ,is showing itself to be a fad exercise, used in the constant quest for PTs to maintain a 'point of difference' in a very competitive field. I have some links comin up when I can manage to stick em here.
Oh I almost forgot, this could be valuable , the hex bar introduces a level of instability at the top position which is unacceptable. At the top position, core activation drops off, along with the moment in the spinal axis. At the top position of the bar version, the electors, the whole rear chain is still in tension. Less chance of injury, less safe.

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O-Men commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 12:56am

In a nutshell.

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CryptoKnight commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 8:30am

'Family fun in the sun then later I will explain briefly'

O ooh, please don't stay out in the sun for so long. And please try and sleep. And please don't fret so much, sleep and relaxation are critical for recovery.

And O ooh, you never did answer whether or not you used the same mass machine prohormones and drugs, glenbuterol, ephedrine etc, that Skip Lecour used when competing O-men. Although they were legal in bodybuilding competition back then in the US, even back then they were illegal in most sports and athletics. He was much more open about it early on. And, I mean Ronnie is drug free too, as was Lance and co.

And o ooh, again, you never did find where we can get the amazing Lacour mass producing secret supplement range did you? Remember that comedy? (But not the the same mass machine prohormones and drugs, glenbuterol, ephedrine etc, that Skip Lecour used when competing O-men. Although they were legal in bodybuilding competition back then in the US, even back then they were illegal in most sports and athletics.)

In a nut shell, your swillnut story has changed dramatically, in fact totally o ooh. And now you are trying to change Green's to save your roasted, fried self. He, famed for his techniques, discusses, and dismisses Rippetoe's technique.

'Green’s speed looked great through the whole lift and his technical proficiency is something to envy in the sport of powerlifting.'

No, as the strongman video shows, none the world's best deadlifters lift anything like you originally said O ooh, in a nutshell. Of course the bar bends with the weights involved, and pulling the spring out of the bar is integral to deadlift form. You need more practice. Reading also.

It's blatantly obvious that mass reading, and accessing information isn't your strong point o ooh, many swillnuts have the same problem, in a nut shell.

Many people like you, study and fail miserably, in a nutshell, that's ok o ooh.

I have to train more people now o ooh, this one was complimentary on the house.

Please don't go back in the sun for so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so so (did I say so), long o ooh, before your lengthy, dribbling, backtracking rant.

In a nutshell.

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 1:07pm

I forgot to mention earlier that the optimal height of your hips in the deadlift is governed by body and limb proportions. Not everyone is the same. Green video showed this. He setup low but the hips still popped up when bar bent. This position is his optimal alignment.

I think that for some folks with unfortunate proportions the hex bar is a safer way to lift. But those same folks might equally benefit from pulling sumo too. Look at Layne Norton's low bar squat. It is quite frankly dangerous as he is so bent over. He does it because he made a living out of it and didn't care about longevity. Longevity is obviously critical as already pointed out.

I prefer to treat the deadlift as a posterior chain lift. Even if hex bar enabled me to lift more I wouldn't care id still straight bar. For quads I high bar. Can't really low bar successfully without elbow pain.

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CryptoKnight commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 3:48pm

'I forgot to mention earlier that the optimal height of your hips in the deadlift is governed by body and limb proportions. Not everyone is the same. Green video showed this. He setup low but the hips still popped up when bar bent.'

Gidday happasS, clients don't like those memory lapses. Doc Tanzi can help there. Green made it clear what he thinks of that parallel to floor high hips idea, and the no quad deadlift idea. Its pretty clear.

Different build, but, as Green points out, quads engaged, hips low.

Then of course there's Starrett. I like a lot of his thinking and techniques. I highlighted the classic, developed over time, programmed and conditioned, and very common inflexibility issues, which limit deadlifting, squatting etc, and thus surfing, in the deadlift videos I posted on the muscles thread. For free too. Starrett is big on that also. Here, starting at the 10.50 mark, Starrett totally addresses the quad use, and low hips not breaking up, more desirable, more upright position as well.

And I've raised the classic 'stretching' conundrum in other threads, which really got the swillnuts buzzing and swillnutting, in a nutshell. It takes more than a few months to... well, although, not in a nutshell, where a few months quickly produces an intermediate expert!

I don't like sumo deadlifts if training for balanced, optimal performance, and transferable development. They cater to and create more imbalance. It should be pretty clear why.

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O-Men commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 11:19pm

Oh look. I made an error, "At the top position of the bar version, the electors, the whole rear chain is still in tension. Less chance of injury, less safe." , thats obviously meant to be "erectors" , and " more safe.".
But you didn't even see that, did you Cryp. But you wrote, "It's blatantly obvious that mass reading, and accessing information isn't your strong point o ooh, many swillnuts have the same problem, in a nut shell.

Many people like you, study and fail miserably, in a nutshell, that's ok o ooh."
But you didn't see that, did you Cryp. You didn't study it and you failed miserably, didn't you?

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happyasS commented Wednesday, 20 Jun 2018 at 11:50pm

Strength transferrability is both general and specific. But unless your a top athlete then it matters not. So deadlift conventional or sumo at the end of the day. Both will provide for general strength transferrability. For the average joe the concept of specific strength is best acheived by doing the sport itself and not worrying about getting specific in the gym. few have the time or interest to do this.

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CryptoKnight commented Thursday, 21 Jun 2018 at 12:30pm

Now there's two pacing the corridors, at all hours of the night, stressed, fretting away, missing out on sleep! Recover! Its critical!!!

O ooh, no answers and now nothing to say.

Happless, think about what you exclaimed so boldly earlier on. About, lifting maximum weights, or, why risk injury if you aren't getting paid to. Think about what you excitedly exclaimed about anatomy dictating that hips high, back parallel to the floor deadlift position, yet here, among all the other elite examples refuting that, we have two deadlifting legends discouraging that, with totally different builds, both talking about, and demonstrating the same thing. Green, Skerrett. What are they talking about? You've missed the not so subtle (not to be confused with supple) point. Clients don't like that.

So, if a person has already lived and trained themselves into a state of limitation, say, a non 'supple' state, of course they'll love hobbling into the sumo position, which caters to, and creates less range of motion, less suppleness and flexibility. Just to reinforce things. And of course that won't be any good to them, to improving their health, fitness, performance, suppleness. Then, of course that won't be transferable to health and well being improvement. Whether they are a 'top athlete'or not. Or surfers even. That's for free too.

You might say kind of profoundly, 'it matters not'... instead of it doesn't matter. But, your clients will just think that you're crackers.

I have to go and train people. That's not for free.

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happyasS commented Thursday, 21 Jun 2018 at 5:15pm

Nah. I pay for my advice. You should think about it.

That's for free.

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O-Men commented Thursday, 21 Jun 2018 at 6:52pm

I think it has turned onshore now Cryp, might be time paddle in huh.?

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CryptoKnight commented Thursday, 21 Jun 2018 at 7:24pm

'It matters not', in a nutshell!!! Sleep!!!

Swillnuts ho, carry on swillnutting... by all means!!!!

'It matters not!!!!??!'

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happyasS commented Thursday, 21 Jun 2018 at 8:54pm

Just promise me you won't let your clients grunt while squatting that trap bar.

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CryptoKnight commented Thursday, 21 Jun 2018 at 10:50pm

Look hapless, in the end, its its your choice to keep using and championing that arse up , back parallel to the ground stuff, that none of the worlds elite deadlifters recommend, that they advise against, that you can't fathom why, for yourself and your clients. Not wanting a sceric of athleticism is also your choice!!? And I can see why you, with your incredible few months of working on form experience, in a nutshell, and o ooh are hell bent on ignoring elite sports and athletic coaches hexbar deadlift results. So by all means carry on swillnutting, keep yours and your clients arses up, and yours and your clients heads rammed down in the sand!

As you squwark, 'it matters not'! In a nutshell!!!

Yes, you and your new mate o ooh, keep your arses up, backs parallel to the ground, and heads down! In a nutshell!!!

Because, 'It matters not'!!! in a nutshell!!!

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BaSz commented Friday, 22 Jun 2018 at 2:05am

Who are these kooky gym junkies

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GuySmiley commented Friday, 22 Jun 2018 at 8:18pm

Any comments?

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Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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O-Men commented Friday, 22 Jun 2018 at 8:45pm

Hahahaa yeah look how stupid the trap bar deadlift is. The bar is way too low on low bar squat.

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O-Men commented Friday, 22 Jun 2018 at 9:50pm

BaSz said, "Who are these kooky gym junkies". I really don't like gyms , they are very expensive and if you don't need to use them almost every day that's a waste of money. Also the modern gym , although perhaps not as much of a seedy den as the olden days, is now just a social club where people go to relax , watch Tele , and talk shit for hours. They are full of irrelevant rubbish gadgets and dangerous fads like hexbars for ex. I don't think anyone in the world would ever disagree that surfing heavy barrelling waves is by far the best pursuit there is . Well raising ones own Son might beat it but... Anyway training outside of surfing definitely can improve your surfing. If the surfs good we will all do it for many hours which develops endurance skills. When it's big and the forces are large we get strong and cardio vascular fitness becomes high. If it's good all the time, then lucky bastard, there's not much room for a lot of training volume . If it's sporadic or you only get large barrelling waves sometimes then training will keep you in top form. But who wants to spend hours suffering ? Just a few sets (about 6-8 reps each) of heavy deadlifts, squats, push-ups and weighted pull-ups is all that's needed for strength, and just 15 mins of cardio 2 or 3 times a week can max out your fitness far more than surfing can. This can all be done at home easily and on the cheap. But... Never buy a hex bar, they cost 25% of the cost of a year at fitness first and are practically useless, and very dangerous, esp for the back. Yeh , I'm not a gym junky, hahahaaa.

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