What's what?

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Shatner'sBassoon started the topic in Friday, 6 Nov 2015 at 7:48pm

AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING KALEIDOSCOPIC JOIN-THE-DOTS/ADULT COLOURING BOOK EXPERIMENTAL PROJECT IN NARCISSISTIC/ONANISTIC BIG PICTURE PARASITIC FORUM BLEEDING.

LIKE POLITICAL LIFE, PARTICIPATION IS WELCOME, ENCOURAGED EVEN, BUT NOT NECESSARY.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Friday, 16 Mar 2018 at 6:41pm

Dubious economics Blowin, but than all economic theory is dubious. I suppose if Trump lasts long enough we will see how your theories play out. More importantly the real issue is not nation vs nation as politicians of all stripes would have us believe. The real war is the war of the wealthy on the rest. Virtually any recent decision by any government globally, if studied carefully, can be seen to favour the seriously wealthy. Politicians manage to achieve this by creating division and fear so people, as Trump so comprehensively demonstrated, can be persuaded to vote for measures which will reduce their income and entitlements. Don't fall for that bullshit.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Friday, 16 Mar 2018 at 7:26pm

Too true regarding the wealthy and powerful vs the world . But isn’t that how it’s ever been ? And not just for mankind . It’s Darwinian theory.

But too be honest Mate , I’m over even hearing about it . Then next thing you know I’m talking dung about it on Swellnet ! It’s like an overblown soap opera that affects the contents of your wallet .

I’m checking out in a couple of days. Hitting the road to a place without a postcard where no news feeds can penetrate. So excited. It’ll be good to get away from all the garbage and immerse myself in the immediacy of untamed lands and seas. You getting any waves ?

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Friday, 16 Mar 2018 at 8:18pm

Agree about the bullshit. Sometimes it feels pointless to pay attention to all this stuff, then something happens that pisses me off......and you know the rest. I have had a couple of short spells out of the water. Two minor injuries. Nothing serious but enough to take the fun out of it. I have been having a couple of body surfs as that didn't irritate the muscle strains. Had a good session yesterday and will be heading out of town early am to chase a few waves. There are still a few spots with no mobile coverage!

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Sheepdog commented Wednesday, 21 Mar 2018 at 7:56pm
Sheepdog's picture
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Sheepdog commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 5:49pm

Posted this ^^^^^^ yesterday, about the last white rhino dying... About the massive extinction rates...... Not one comment........ Peeps more interested in go pro shares and bitcoin.....
You're not surfers.... You're Surfsumers.

Sheepdog

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 5:53pm

Because typing something would've brought it back to life?

thermalben's picture
thermalben's picture
thermalben commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 6:10pm

SD, something to consider: this is how your post looked on my phone.

Just a weblink.

1. It's the Guardian, so I'm interested.
2. Date is recent, so it's probably something newsworthy.
3. It's been published under their "Comment Is Free" section, so it's an opinion piece. Could be good, could be crap.
4. Article title starts with "We have monetised....". Hmmm. Can't tell what it's about, but as you've given no other information, I can only guess. Now unsure if it's worthwhile or not. Could be a weird financial news piece. Bitcoin maybe? Yep, definitely not interested in that.

So, that's what passed through my mind in the 5 seconds your post occupied my screen. If you'd given your personal thoughts, I might have been tempted to click - and then maybe (though not definitely) comment - but you didn't, so I wasn't and I moved on.

Point being: don't assume people will click a link just because you provide it.

And also, don't assume that because no-one comments, no-one cares. Sometimes it's difficult to know what to say.

zenagain's picture
zenagain's picture
zenagain commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 6:31pm

As above same, saw theguardian, comment is free, we have monetized the end of the world and went 'righto, we'll just skip this one'.

I read a similar article about the Northern White Rhino just the other day and was saddened. But, not being a superstitious Chinese man with erectile dysfunction, i can't help but feel that the message should be directed elsewhere.

Watashi wa metabo oyagi desu.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 7:09pm

Sooooooo that's it guys? yeah typing wont bring it back to life, stu.... That's all u have to say re the other species vanishing as we speak?
Cool :)

Sheepdog

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 7:54pm

No, I'm having you on you silly twat, but go on, save the rhinos with your typed words on Swellnet, then keep typing and save the northern hairy nose wombat, type some more and rescue the dunnart, few more words and the Leadbetter's possum will be safe. You'll never have to leave your desk! And don't forget to judge everyone else on their lack of typing. The world's going to hell because of it.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 9:26pm

I read it before you posted the link sheepdog but I really don't know what to say. It's the end of the world as we know it but I have given up, at least temporarily, from engaging in environmental debates as they seem pointless. Blowin made a similar remark the other day. I understand the frustration when people don't engage with a serious issue but sometimes the energy just isn't there.

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 9:53pm

Got to agree with BB.
Qld clear felling running unabated / Frydenberg's announcement just this week undoing work started by Howard of all people ... yeah, what's the point?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Thursday, 22 Mar 2018 at 10:37pm

I passed it over when i saw it was a Guardian link.

But heard about that on the radio (ABC) today, it did make me think how farked humans are for about 5 minutes.

Please Stunet just give me that ignore button for Crypto (Herc, uplift or whatever other names he has used)

upnorth's picture
upnorth's picture
upnorth commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 2:36am

It had the sad title of last male northern white rhino for some time. Death didn't really change much about the reality of its species and many others on the about to be wiped out by humans list.

A bit closer to our watery home - isn't the barrier reef fucked? Dead or dying in large areas and on borrowed time? What about the 21st century deep sea version of the gold rush that is about to kick off? Company's like DeepGreen Resources and Nautilus queuing up to plunder pristine areas of seabed with bulk cutters in search of gold, cobalt and copper. We don't even know what's down there and we're about to send the dozers in.

And the only people charged with safeguarding the ocean floor in international waters belong to a tiny organization called the International Seabed Authority. Based in Jamaica the ISA is attempting to prevent mining of areas of seabed that UNESCO say should be designated world heritage sites. These areas don't belong to anyone and are classed as 'common heritage of mankind'. Mankind who can't even look after our closest relatives in the animal kingdom. There's plenty to fill forum pages with if you have the inclination.

shoredump's picture
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shoredump commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 6:15am

Might take a couple hundred years, we may even slow it down to a thousand. But make no mistake, it’s going to get really ugly

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 7:43am

End of the day it all comes down to unsustainable population growth, and yes will only get worse.

Please Stunet just give me that ignore button for Crypto (Herc, uplift or whatever other names he has used)

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:21am

Pretty much agree with you I.D. but the International Institute for Environment and Development in London prefers to widen the scope of discussion and it's very hard to disagree.

"It is not the number of people on the planet that is the issue – but the number of consumers and the scale and nature of their consumption".

Imagine 11 billion people (2100 estimation) all demanding a "Western" level of affluence...
Frightening and impossible.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160311-how-many-people-can-our-planet-r...

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:22am

I think our current environmental problems have less to do with population growth and more to do with basic planning and human decision making (or lack there of). We just want to take more and more and more, but could be just as happy and healthy with a leaner, less wasteful society. But - Boring! We want steak, and lots of it!

An average Philipino uses 19 Gigajoules of energy per annum, Indian 25, Croatian 76, Italian 108, Australian 234, American 290. There's 1.3b Indians, 325m Americans, simple math India's 1.3b people use 32.5b Gj/a, America's 325m people use 95b Gj/a. Four times pop'n for 1/3rd total energy demand. Gj energy being a rough substitute for resource demand and pollution levels.

Not to say that we want to live like the Indian population, but the simple answer of population pressures is a distraction from the multitude of accessible solutions that are available now, whereas pop'n issues are a very longterm problem to solve. If we somehow magically shrunk the worlds pop'n by half but we all lived the current western lifestyle it wouldn't make us better off! In fact, you could argue the quick solution is shrinking western society populations and leave everyone else alone ;) However pop'n arguments are pie in the sky arguments for solving our current environmental issues, there are other solutions we can actually execute, right now, and we should focus on them.

(I quickly took the above numbers from Wikipedia 2013 energy lists p/p to highlight a point, not claiming these are 100% correct).

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:23am

Andy - beat me to it!

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:33am

I think it is easy to miss a really important point about the our current environmental crisis and that is the degree to which this is a result of the deliberate manipulation of public opinion by organisations like the Koch brothers i360 and Cambridge Analytica. Billions of dollars have been spent over decades to elect politicians who will do the bidding of big business and to confuse the public about fundamental issues. The only hope for significant improvement is to change this dynamic.....but as it stands they have politics sewn up across the globe. In some places it is direct respression, in others it is a media saturated with bullshit and come ons to buy endless quantities of crap. What hope?

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:35am

Got you by a minute mk1 ;)
What solutions you talking about?

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:41am

Fair point BB, I see that misdirection is a trait played out across so many levels of politics. What is the actual economic return of land clearing in QLD? A few farmers and woodchippers make additional profits and temporarily boost GDP? This boost is only valid if you don't include the negative externalities, so it looks good on the very simplest form of economic measurement.

We need to open our minds to accepting more complex economic measurement systems inorder to not be hoodwinked by politicians doing special favours for their donors.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:42am

.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:44am

Andy, for me (not an expert!)
1. Carbon tax with funds raised directed to investments in sustainable energy as well as carbon offsetting.
2. Non-degradeable pollutants to include the cost of collection and correct recycling. IE plastics must have their clean-up and recycling costs included in the purchase price.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:45am

 "What hope?"

Don't vote conservative for starters. "...the search for a moral justification for selfishness."

And they'll tell you any lies they can to enact their selfish ideology: privatisation, small govt, trickle down economics, Laissez-faire, the benefits of corporate tax cuts etc etc etc

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:57am

Stu if both parties in a two-party system are conservative and largely corrupt, where does that leave us?
As far as I'm concerned, until we can change the mechanics of the current economic and political system, we'll just continue to skirt around the guts of environmental issues and kick the can further down the road.
This change may come consciously and voluntarily (highly doubtful) or from the result of economic, social or environmental upheaval, which will be an interesting experience.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 12:05pm

Hi Andy, I think there is a desire for change at global body level but there is a lot of suspicion of these global bodies at local levels, and anything they support.
But perhaps we need to start accepting that this problem will need a global solution pushed down from international bodies, and while not perfect, it's better than the alternative (nothing happening).

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 12:08pm

@Andy

You vote for the one that's pushing back against it the most.

The neo-lib movement is bigger than any party, it's bigger than Australian politics, and it's why traditional Labor values have been lost and missing for twenty years. No way Labor could've enacted them during the 90s or 00s as they would've been slaughtered at the polling booth, so they got dragged right 'cos that was the direction the whole Western world was heading.

But don't you feel the pendulum is swinging? Even a little bit..?

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 12:32pm

mk1, I believe there is a growing worldwide desire for change, however suspicion of global bodies is fomented by the big boys with vested interests in maintaining the status quo
(U.S. vs. United Nations anyone?)
Hence currently, there is no global solution from international bodies.

Stu, that's the crux of the issue - neoliberalism is bigger than individual nations.
It gets me back to the infamous "you're either with us or against us" as uttered by George W. Bush - if Australia found the political nous to make serious changes to structure, I think we would be in for a shock. We would be met with, well, whatever it would take, whether that was the soft power of a Whitlam-style sacking and moving up from there.

I certainly believe the pendulum is swinging (worldwide) but in light of tame governments/compromised democracy and a non-functioning Fourth Estate I think it will have to swing a long way to seriously impact political policy.
For the foreseeable future I think the trimmings may change but the core will remain.
And that, as they say, is non va bene.

blindboy's picture
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blindboy commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 12:42pm

The other aspect that I think is often missed is the exponential nature of many of the problems. As population increases and standards of living rise waste increases exponentially and so does the quantity of chemical pollution in the environment. Ecologically when one species become extinct there are flow on impacts leading to the extinction of others and the degradation of the entire system. I have always tried to be optimistic but the risks of reaching some tipping point in climate or ecology is rising very rapidly. At best we are looking at much diminished biodiversity, at worst it is hard to know.

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 12:44pm

"suspicion of global bodies is fomented by the big boys with vested interests in maintaining the status quo" so true. Very unfortunate for the rest of us.

The socialist EU seems to be a lot better at proactive vision on these topics than us capitalist anglo nations... Still, if we can start to shift our thinking that will at least prepare the soil for these solutions. Leaving aside the rapidly changing technological landscape.

Remember, we actually managed to have a carbon tax for a while there (thanks Julia!!!!)

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 12:46pm

"I have always tried to be optimistic but the risks of reaching some tipping point in climate or ecology is rising very rapidly" amen to that.

sypkan's picture
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sypkan commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 1:55pm

This article seems rather fitting to the gloomy outlook this discussion has taken (sorry indod, more guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/22/collapse-civilisation-nea...

Personally I think while economics is at the forfront of peoples' minds the environment always comes of second best. Hence trump. The 90's and 00's was a real chance for change....sadly squandered.

"...Ehrlich also says an unprecedented redistribution of wealth is needed to end the over-consumption of resources, but “the rich who now run the global system – that hold the annual ‘world destroyer’ meetings in Davos – are unlikely to let it happen”.

While I would never ever vote conservative, its getting harder and harder to discern who the good guys actually are.

The davos crew certainly see themselves as saviours, but even this grumpy old stalwart has his doubts it seems.

Personally I see blaming population as a cop out. As mk1 demonstrated, consumption is a way bigger problem. And plus, those people aren't going anywhere no matter how much you wish it so.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 2:13pm

Interesting link sypkan, I was waiting for a mention of the 6th mass extinction and there it is.

And mk1, I was expecting one of your more attainable solutions to be birth control made available to all as suggested by Ehrlich.

As for a shattering collapse of civilisation being a “near certainty” in the next few decades, I'm grabbing a reverse osmosis setup and stocking up on guns and ammo ;)

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 2:27pm

Andy, I thought you were asking about solutions outside of pop'n control. Real solutions that will have impact now. Westerners already have full access to birth control but it doesn't stop their extreme resource waste. Why worry about pop'n in 3rd world countries? They aren't really an issue (being a bit factitious here, but you get my point).

Actually I feel that a world under the capitalist system can't accept pop'n reductions. A carbon tax and a pollutants tax (as noted above) at least work in with our current economic system. Once capitalism passes, and it will, then pop'n declines will become acceptable but it won't happen till then.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 2:36pm

"Once capitalism passes, and it will, then pop'n declines will become acceptable but it won't happen till then."

Why do you say that?

As it is, natural population growth (not immigration) tails off the more affluent a country is, and capitalism is the means to that end.

So right now, more capitalism = less people.

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 2:38pm

"a world under the capitalist system can't accept pop'n reductions"

Yep, another huge issue.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 2:53pm

Hey Stu, While developed capitalist economies citizens have less children(personal choice), they don't stop requiring pop'n growth (economy's desire for growth). They just import it as the classic Aus example shows, but also visible elsewhere. The ones that don't increase their pop'n struggle (EU and Japan). Heaven forebid the pop'ns actually decline, rather than just stabilise. That would be ruinous under the current economic system.

I note increased wealth and education leads to lower birthrates and represents the coming "topping out" of the population growth curve through the middle of this century as Africa develops. However i think the stars are aligned that we will enter a late stage capitalism at the same time as most of the world has reached a reasonable standard of living and global populations begin to top out. After this, actual declines might be possible.

stunet's picture
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stunet commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 3:00pm

Yeah was more a thought bubble than anything else. Popped with only the faintest weight of consideration.

mk1's picture
mk1's picture
mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 3:08pm

damn, shouldn't have typed so many words in response!

AndyM's picture
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AndyM commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 3:16pm

mk1, the rest of the world reaching a "reasonable standard of living" will most likely result in decreased birth rates but the problem is, in the meantime this desire for resources to build this standard of living will have massive effects on the environment.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 3:34pm

Yeah agreed Andy. It's going to be very tough for the planet! I don't think we will see significant pop'n declines this century anyway. Just steadying of the growth.

I hold out hope that if we can redirect significant funds from polluting industries to pollution solutions the pain for the planet may start to stabilise and even decrease. That's a big "if" but I think it's the only possibility we have.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 3:34pm

.

mk1's picture
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mk1 commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 3:41pm

One of the beauties of an effective carbon tax is it puts a value on existing forests, supporting biodiversity and traditional communities who currently have to turn to logging to extract some value out of the region. It's also fkn cheap to sequester carbon in existing forests! That leaves aside mass carbon filters that may be required in the next couple of decades.

We then need to match that system with a toxic/non-degradable products tax.

Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog's picture
Sheepdog commented Friday, 23 Mar 2018 at 11:04pm

A couple of articles for blowin, firstly Pauline Hanson supporting the 65 BILLION dollar tax handout for banks and multi nationals, in exchange for 1000 apprentice places ( 65000000000 divided by 1000 = 65000000 - thats 65 MILLION per apprenticeship). Thoughts, blowin..

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/03/22/15/54/pauline-hanson-backs-...

Second, you've been a big advocate on tariffs.... Your thoughts on where this will go..

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/23/china-promises-to-hit-u...

Sheepdog

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus commented Saturday, 24 Mar 2018 at 8:18am

Population growth and GDP growth have a direct relationship to degradation of the environment.
As a mate reminds me the planet doesn't care what we do it will just carry on without us.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Saturday, 24 Mar 2018 at 8:42pm

Increasing want to lose my mind ....

Apologises for the link but I love this 6 page gem from Leunig

https://www.instagram.com/p/BgsDnPnHA06/?taken-by=leunigstudio

truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher's picture
truebluebasher commented Sunday, 25 Mar 2018 at 7:34pm

Sugar/Spikes & stickytape device... Aussies pay a heavy price.

Billionaire cricketers held nation to ransom over upcoming S.A. test.
With OZ taxpayers forking out $Gazillion pay rise so we couldn't lose Test series.

The very minute it looked as though our highest paid were nations biggest pretenders...

Sugar in the left pocket shines left side of ball/Sticky tape sander in other roughs right side. Spikes stop ball to raise the seam. # Me Too! Junior players bullied by "Leadership team?"
Professional cheats on highest level...OZ WORST CRICKET TOUR ...Bye Bye losers!
Ban them from Big Bash as well.
Never ever pay sportsmen a cent... none can prove they're worth half of that!

AndyM's picture
AndyM's picture
AndyM commented Tuesday, 27 Mar 2018 at 5:00pm

Shit, don't ask the scientists, just ask the crew at Swellnet - it's not rocket surgery.

"We need to focus on limiting human population growth, reducing resource consumption, and cracking down on government corruption, if we're going to stop the global loss of species known as the sixth great extinction, scientists say."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-03-27/corruption-population-impa...

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