Where were you at 400ppm?

blindboy's picture
blindboy started the topic in Wednesday, 12 Jul 2017 at 9:13am

.

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Friday, 14 Jul 2017 at 6:33pm

Looks like we need to build an Ark , anyone Noah guy ?

Optimist's picture
Optimist's picture
Optimist commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 7:46am

Go down to the local native plant nursery and buy 10 trees. Some places give them to you free. Mine are 10 metres high and sucking carbon like there is a tomorrow. Tony Abbott wanted to plant millions of trees but the project was blocked by Labor .They wanted to be someone's bond slave with no actual plan. Britain has learnt that having a boss somewhere other than Britain is shit so they want out and we should be careful too. Even the old coal fired power stations can be converted to pump the gas through algae dams which rapidly grow by feeding on the carbon. When harvested the green slime is spun for high grade bio diesel and the dry waste becomes everything from cattle feed to nutrient bars for the worlds hungry. Anyone can put on a few solar panels and build yourself a battery bank cheap. Use a few mobile home/caravan inverters and go off grid. Its easy. Plant trees and food trees, be nice without being someone's slave. Love people and God who gave us all we have and we will get there. Thing clean think green (not the unnatural Gay Greens) and live well.

toneranger's picture
toneranger's picture
toneranger commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 9:55am

Let's look at the absolute worst case scenario.We've screwed up the planet and the human race petres out in another hundred years or so.The planet doesn't care,it's got another billion years.There's time for another whole evolutionary process which,if the dice fell right would lead to a way better model than the one we have now.i.e. the 'small little dna attachment in our current state that can't stop at just having enough.On the up up side evolution is still going on and,while there's little or no action on climatechange there is more debate.Couple that with the 'self interest/survival gene' we still may be the only evo model in this millenia.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 10:11am

BB.."A spectacular piece of pseudo-intellectual nonsense. Once you penetrate the jargon the argument makes not the slightest bit of sense. "

what argument do you think he is making? he is primarily identifying that a "market-soln" (e.g. emissions trading) is unlikely to work in the long run. id be interested to see how the ETS in Europe has faired over its 10+ years.

personally i continue to think a simple carbon tax is the most appropriate way forward provided that poorer people are correctly subsidised.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 10:47am

Sorry optimist but your solution for coal fired plants still ends up putting the carbon into the atmosphere. There is also the slight environmental difficulty of turning waterways large enough to cope with the carbon inputs into vast, probably anoxic, algae choked wastes. Imagine the lakes of the central coast glowing bright green in the sunlight that could, much more readily, have been converted to electricity. Then there is the issue of timing. We need change now, not in ten years time when all this new infrastructure has been created.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 10:59am

happy the whole argument is based on a false premise....that the costs of climate change will be in the future. The costs of climate change began at least a decade ago and will rise sharply within the lifetime of a majority of the world's present population. Worse still, even if his premise was correct, his argument would still be fatally flawed as it neglects the obvious fact that we make all sorts of inter-generational arrangements similar to those necessary to address climate change. We build infra-structure to last hundreds of years. How is reconfiguring our energy supply any different? It is just another wise investment.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 11:33am

thats all true bb. i dont actually believe his position but i think its interesting nonetheless. his point about it being a moral problem has some worth and i think is part of the reason why we are finding it so difficult to enact countrywide policy. its true that many politicians doubt the science but part of me wonders if its more that they fall into Sagoffs camp of people and then go and use the science (or errors in the science) as an excuse to justify their position. i mean how else can someone avoid plain facts? abbott/howard are nuts but they arent dumb, immoral perhaps? i think a lot of this stuff for traditional conservatives is really ego challenging. true, climate change does come at a cost but that cost is not easily put into monetary terms, particularly when the emissions released in one location end up affecting somewhere else. for all means it will be the poorest countries who will suffer, like you identified somewhere back up the page. i think there is some problems with using the market to solve the problem though, particularly when big corporations design the rules. im sure i read somewhere hat europes ETS is pretty useless.

i was going to say something along the lines of population and consumerism as a problem that we choose to avoid inlight of being fixated on traditional economic theory, but lost my train of thought due to a crying baby. number 2 now, so ive well and truly done my bit for the environment. the biggest cost to me though now is lost time in the water, though im still concerned about co2.

anyhow, back to the daily grind. thanks for the chat.

Herc's picture
Herc's picture
Herc commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 1:33pm

Blinded by dollars is the issue. The rest is just death throes. Remember those old insightfull movies where the robot/machine takes over the world? It happened, our culture is a slave to dollars. Dollars, cost, production rule. The brainwashing is complete.

A serious culture would assess the results with no bias, as an outsider looking in, see the system/culture is a disastrous failure, and put all efforts into finding/creating a new one. A total overhaul, re education/brainwashing/conditioning is vital if anything is to change. Its not even that hard in essence. Just set new targets. Focus on target, don't fall in love with, and get lost on the path. Make the health of the planet a priority, it will happen. Make the well being of all its life, including us, a priority, it will happen. Focus. Only the road to the love of dollars and self serving greed wanting more will stop it.

Traditional Indigenous Australians. 60,000 years says its possible. Heads or tails... shit, hang on!!!!!! Is that a 1930 penny!!!!!!!! Give me that fucker, I know a guy...

And before you shit your pants, and have a stroke sqwarking, Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures are one example. Their lesson is the target, the unrelenting focus, the conditioning/brainwashing. Possibilities, imagination are unlimited.

Brainwashing/conditioning. The ultimate double edged sword. Deluxe in the right hands, the ultimate weapon of mass destruction in the hands of fools. Don't fall asleep. You are not your thoughts/brainwashing. You make them possible. Don't let the robot take over, don't get stuck in a dead end street.

Just like workouts. This one isn't working, dump it. Get a different result.

'but I always do it like this... and coach nurdendroidler reckons'

Exactly, that's why you are fucked. Focus on the target, take a different path, they are infinite. Persist, focus. The right one will come.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 1:51pm

Had dinner last night with a couple of long term friends and they we telling me climate change doesn't exist. Errrrr, shocked I asked them what they meant by that. What followed was mix of bullshit and sweeping statements about the lies scientists were telling us. I asked them where they got all their information from ....... picking myself off the floor looking as composed as I could with the words Fox and Andrew Bolt ringing in my ears. I quickly drank what remained of the red wine in my glass and turned the TV on to see the Bombers flogging St Kilda; don't rate St Kilda never have ... subject successfully changed, fuck me.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 2:07pm

SA's little dilemma even made it to America. ..amazing really....

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/07/14/delingpole-elon-musk-...

Herc's picture
Herc's picture
Herc commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 2:07pm

Here's a simple, but deeply profound experiment. Get any number of people. Say 10. Put them in a room with a lot of lights, different kinds of lights. Ask them to count exactly how many lights are in the room. Tell them as much as you like, to be carefull, and to be sure how many lights there are. When they are done, ask them several times to be sure, certain that they have the right number. Tell them to recheck.

Take them out of the room. Ask the answers. Maybe some errors, different figures, maybe they will argue, debate the figure.

Then ask them how many books are in the room. They might guess, but the truth is, they won't have a clue, despite the books being right under their noses. We dismiss what we don't focus on, we see what we focus on.

Everyone saw lights. The arguing and debate re numbers will be about lights. Its good if lights are the focus.

A zillion different lenses focused in one direction. Dollars.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 4:50pm

Deeply profound.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 5:37pm

Wait a minute ......doesn't profound mean irrelevant and trite ?

Sorry , my mistake.

Herc's picture
Herc's picture
Herc commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 6:36pm

The squeal that rang out around the world!

'MMMMMMMMMMMMMMUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pweassth mummy, pweasth misthta poweesthmanth mayke himth ssssttthhhtop!!!!!!!!!!!'

The lil' aussie bleeder, lil' fly speck, drivvlin swilnuttin' double decker blowie! Mummy finally patched him up, pulled him out of the crack in the limestone, dwyed hith wittle eythes, whyped hith knowthz, checked he had awl hith westhtwaining orwdaths, and thsent him out fowr anuvver fuckin' floggin! Cruel!!!!!!!!

Profound you say, lil' aussie bleeder, lil' fly speck, drivvlin swilnuttin' double decker blowie?

How the fuck would this raving, swillnuttin', driveling, bullshit artist lunatic have a fucking clue about anything?

https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/12736

Its all about dollars. And try as he might, despite trying his little baby heart out, the lil' aussie bleeder, lil' fly speck, drivvlin swilnuttin' double decker blowie always comes up a few cents short. Always has, always will. Swillnuttin' surfee for life.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 7:12pm

Let's keep it sane - if that's possible - and in context . You say that it's all about the dollar , etc etc

So how have you altered your lifestyle to counteract climate change ?

Or is your contribution limited to " profound wisdom ".

I swear that a little bit of spew broached my lips to even type that without giving rein to my full opinion.

Mort's picture
Mort's picture
Mort commented Saturday, 15 Jul 2017 at 10:36pm

God, that is asking a lot. When I left school, when I started my first job, when I got my licence, when I lost my licence. When I lost my Virginity, Man, It was like, at least 200 ppm!

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 1:07pm

The Queensland state Liberal conference will today vote on a motion requesting the Turnbull Government to walk away from the Paris Accord.

This at a time when the world's leading expert on coral and the Great Barrier Reef Charlie Veron believes its too late ........

http://www.theage.com.au/good-weekend/charlie-veron-the-dire-environment...

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 2:07pm

And there are those who believe otherwise on the reefs
https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2016/06/reefs-self-serving...

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 2:34pm

What right wing rag is Quadrant and who is the author of the article you quote?

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 3:30pm

Quadrant was actually funded by the CIA for many years. It is hardly a guarantee of unbiased opinion. It would be interesting g to see who is paying their bills now. The Koch brothers I expect.

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 6:31pm

That wouldn't surprise me at all blindboy, but I,m not a follower of it,,the article is in a few other places ,it was just the first link I came across while looking for it,,
but the author is Walter Starck , https://www.heartland.org/about-us/who-we-are/walter-starck

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 7:25pm

Well if you quote articles from a peer reviewed journal but then fail to tell us which one or the names of the papers, credibility goes out the window.

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 8:24pm

Mine or his ? My credibility went out the window years ago..Didn't say I was quoting from a peer reviewed journal , I think Starck has as much 'credibility' as Veron on this issue though.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 8:27pm

His. He claims to have an article in a peer reviewed journal supporting his argument but does not name it.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Sunday, 16 Jul 2017 at 9:14pm

"I think Starck has as much 'credibility' as Veron on this issue though". On what considered basis do you make that statement TS?

Meanwhile at the Qld Liberal Party state conference today .....

Past president Con Galtos said "I am totally against global warming, and I agree with everything that the mover of this motion has stated, however we have a choice: we either stand with our American friends, or we stand behind our Prime minister and our government,"

Another past president, Bruce McIver, said he was also a climate sceptic.

So where do Queensland tourism operators go for support if they want political leadership?

Just for the record (government of QLD statistics)

More than 22 million domestic and international overnight visitors come to Queensland each year.
The industry directly and indirectly employs 220,000 Queenslanders - or 9.4% of all people employed in Queensland.
Tourism contributes $11.2 billion directly to the Queensland economy, accounting for 3.7% of Queensland's gross state product (GSP). The industry indirectly contributes an additional $11.6 billion to the state's economy, making the total contribution $23 billion, or 7.5% of total Queensland GSP.

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Monday, 17 Jul 2017 at 1:27pm

Starck is hardly a rank amateur, www.goldendolphin.com/wstarck.htm , and Verons views aren't all supported by peer reviewed science, . Having said that I have a great deal of respect for Veron , as does Starck himself. This is from a few years ago but in this one Starck responds to some of Verons specific claims. www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7322&page=0
I wonder if anyone takes up Verons current advice to anyone who owns a beachfront home "Move , move now, don't worry about getting a good price for your house, just go. In 10 years time everyone will be moving an it will too expensive". Big call.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Monday, 17 Jul 2017 at 6:30pm

What people are currently dying as a result attributable to climate change?

Coaster's picture
Coaster's picture
Coaster commented Monday, 17 Jul 2017 at 8:48pm

The alarmists attempts to push people into action are doing more harm than good. Veron's claim that waterfront properties will be inundated in 10 years give plenty of ammunition to sceptics who will prove him wrong in time.
One study of the number of deaths caused by climate in The Lancet reports that deaths from cold outweigh deaths from heat by a factor of nearly 20.
http://thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)60897-2/fulltext
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)62114-0/abstract
http://thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(15)60897-2/fulltext

braudulio's picture
braudulio's picture
braudulio commented Monday, 17 Jul 2017 at 9:33pm

For those with Netflix: Chasing Coral

Sobering stuff

‘IF YOU UNDERSTAND, things are just as they are;
if you do not understand, THINGS ARE JUST AS THEY ARE.’

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 7:37am

Dedicates his entire life to researching the Great Barrier Reef (GBR), makes numerous internationally recognised scientific discoveries about the coral, is universally considered an expert on coral and the GBR and is better placed than nearly every other human on the planet to speak on the health of the GBR yet gets labelled an climate change "alarmist". Breathtaking stuff.

Coaster's picture
Coaster's picture
Coaster commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 8:42am

No disrespect intended for his lifetime of great research and work. I suppose you could call his statements passionate and exaggerated due to frustration with a lack of action. But making those sorts of statements provides an open target for the sceptics, which was my point.

Gaz1799's picture
Gaz1799's picture
Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 10:14am

The alarmist type info definitely throws fuel to the deniers, but I can see the logic in doing it. If they hadn't, would we even be discussing it? Probably not. Just a shame so many deniers get airtime.

Having said that, I couldn't care less about withdrawing from the Paris Agreement as I think its just a big rhetorical distraction. Happy to be howled down etc but until someone makes a reliable system with a higher yield/$ through renewables than coal I think the temptation will be too great for developing (or developed) countries with big coal reserves.

The first rich billionaire or savvy inventor to solve this riddle will change the world. And also get stinking rich. Because $$$$ seems to matter more than saving the world in this twisted setup.

Blowin's picture
Blowin's picture
Blowin commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 10:18am

If you do / did own waterfront property would you be selling ?

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 10:51am

Blowin, I would have already sold by now. Its an interesting question. Locally, there are beach front properties for sale that back onto the beach and protected from the water by very low dunes, maybe a 2 - 3 metre elevation between wet and dry feet. They have been on the market for a long time, one for at least a year and this contrasts with houses in the same area that are perched on hills and cliff tops that get snapped up within days. I think people are already very aware of the risks.

In Victoria, large parts of Lakes Entrance already floods (heavy rainfall/big tides/weather) and the township is predicted to eventually go under. Many of the bayside suburbs of Melbourne are flood prone (from the ocean) and the property titles state that.

Those million $$ beach front houses in Sydney a year or two ago got the ocean washing through their windows and their back yards washed away!

sharkman's picture
sharkman's picture
sharkman commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 1:37pm
Coaster's picture
Coaster's picture
Coaster commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 3:44pm

Guy, the IPCC reports that ocean levels are rising by 1/8 of an inch each year. In the last 32 years, the level has increased by 4 inches. In the next 10 years it will increase 1.25 inches. Just to keep it in perspective. The damage to properties on the northern beaches was done by storms and erosion, not rising sea levels. Building a house on the sand is always a risky proposition. They advised against doing that in biblical times.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 3:58pm
Gaz1799's picture
Gaz1799's picture
Gaz1799 commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 4:24pm

Good articles

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 4:38pm

Coaster, mostly agree with your comment about storms and that is what Veron is also saying, an increased frequency of severe storms possibly of a magnitude we haven't seen causing severe coastal flooding.

blindboy's picture
blindboy's picture
blindboy commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 4:58pm

coaster the IPCC predictions for sea level rise by the end of the century range from 26cm to 83cm, according to the various emission scenarios. Given the current situation the low end predictions are probably already out the window. At best then we can expect something like half a metre. Factor that into even existing storm levels and you're looking at a significant increase in erosion.

happyasS's picture
happyasS's picture
happyasS commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 6:15pm

and gaz, my suspicion is that the corporates know we will fail too. an increasingly individualistic society will not easily achieve a common goal if its just left to the individuals.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2016/apr/13/can-game-theory-hel...

tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter's picture
tubeshooter commented Tuesday, 18 Jul 2017 at 8:12pm

Both Starck an Veron came on my radar back in 2004/2005 I believe, over marine park and fisheries issues .As a stakeholder at the time I found both of them compulsory reading . Between both these guys the amount of research and discoveries both have made is worthy of note, not to to mention the sea hours clocked under the water. However 'bubbleheads' {divers} can get a bit funny in the head when they get older,. Science is all about rigorous analysis, and no one is immune., I don't think we should be sticking our heads in the sand , and would love to see a world free of petrochemical and coal emissions, I,m just not buying the whole imminent doomsday scenarios. If Veron wants to make that whole spiel credible then I wonder if he'd be willing to put his money where his mouth is, and compensate anyone who takes his real estate advice seriously, if his phrophecy or prediction doesn't actually occur. As an 'expert' where does his personal liability lie in making such claims?

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 7:00am

Liberals don’t moralize about everything they think is a problem. You’ll hear a lot more discussion of how people should fight climate change by eating less meat and living in dense, walkable communities than discussion of how they should fight it by flying less.

This is probably because people like to propose moral solutions that are in line with their pre-existing lifestyle preferences.

Liberal moralizing has a tendency to read as college educated people in cities arguing that everyone should behave more like they do. Usually, that’s the substance of the moralizing, too.

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/liberals-can-win-if-they-stop-being-so-a...

I wonder what is the carbon footprint of your average globe trotting, weekends away jet-setting, thirsty boat travelling, suburban SUV driving, air-con house, car, and office dwelling, doomsday peddling CC advocate?

Carbon footprint - high

Credibility - low

Relevance - becoming lower

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 6:39am

" If Veron wants to make that whole spiel credible then I wonder if he'd be willing to put his money where his mouth is, and compensate anyone who takes his real estate advice seriously, "

Yep Id like to see that...

"if his phrophecy or prediction doesn't actually occur. As an 'expert' where does his personal liability lie in making such claims?"

He's liability neutral.

All that good work he does cancels out the self indulgent ridiculous claims he makes.

A bit like his carbon footprint I imagine

And that's why it all feels rather frivolous

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 7:58am

" would love to see a world free of petrochemical and coal emissions"

If this had been the clear main goal for the last 20 odd years we'd be there by now

Instead it has become a nasty ideological battle where both sides have lost the logical argument long ago

Reduced to an either/or argument, the world is stifling...and that's not the temperature

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 8:14am

Bizarrely obtuse statement, Sypkan

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 8:44am

You don't think the debate is stifling?

All this either / or just seems to avert attention away from bigger (related) questions like consumption patterns, equality, economic growth, petro- dollars and a heap of other related things that don't get light of day because we are all arguing about which 'good book' we believe in, and all positions must fall in line accordingly

It's the compartmentalising of neo liberalism in gaz's article, it's fucked our thinking

stunet's picture
stunet's picture
stunet commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 9:10am

No, this statement: "A nasty ideological battle." That's what every big debate is.

Lung cancer levels would've dropped if only Phillip Morris had admitted nicotine was carcinogenic. Acid rain. CFCs. Logging old growth forests. Immigration. One side doesn't subscribe to the "clear, main goal" and they'll do everything to block, deny, and obfuscate. The other side will use science - correct, imperfect, or otherwise - to bolster their argument.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 9:30am

I really think climate change is different in the way it spans ideologies

And, I don't reckon the public fall into, or can be swayed into, these ideological categories so readily anymore

But it is about swaying people. And the debate hasn't done that very well

The zealots sense this...and have gotten zealouser....if that was even possible

Gaz1799's picture
Gaz1799's picture
Gaz1799 commented Wednesday, 19 Jul 2017 at 9:31am

Sypo, I couldn't claim the credit for Happys article, although its worthy.

The amount of misinformation dividing people is maddening as there's plenty of people doing worthwhile research that could make a real difference but people, nations and some scientists seem only interested in bickering and throwing stones for their own perceived benefit.