Turnbull and Trump

blindboy's picture
blindboy started the topic in Monday, 30 Jan 2017 at 8:24pm

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Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 9:49am

Sharkman I don't think I've read a wiser summary of the situation for a long time.

I shudder to think what the implications are going to be for how future US elections will be fought after the rubbish Trump pulled. The race to the bottom may almost be complete.

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tonybarber Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 9:56am

Ahhh, if many are engrossed in American politics then I recommend the movie "Miss Sloane".

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davetherave Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 10:23am

Yeah good luck with job pb. Until humans consciousness remembers the spiritual guidance shared by many which is wrong are all one thing and buy cheating or exploiting another part of life you are actually doing it to yourself. Death shows you this and because you are always evolving you will maybe find yourself back here receiving the same treatment you dished out before. Hence it is wise to treat others fairly and respectfully
Of course have some fun and take the piss. Bit you live on, it's only the old boardies- the body, the earth reclams then re uses, you keep evolving and the sooner you grasp that you as one part of a whole is embraced and valued by that one life things get better
That is when self governance becomes a reality. Beings governance is all inclusive because it's obvious to neglect anyone I'd to neglect themselves and their prospering sustainable way of life. You see profit is only profit when all equally share in the gains because it realises and rewards everyone and everythings contribution. No no swellphilosophers o's political scrutinizing mind's, not communism or socialism. But simplism-wholistic evolution. Should be teaching our young now. Introducing the concept of one living life and we are one cell. Makes sense not to intentionally harm another
Cut down on violence bullying etc but also create a new respect towards pure planet and rubbish and technology would be aimed at helpnh humanity and the environment work together more harmoniously. Trump and Malcolm make fine drama but dinosaurs run out and when the power of fear is shown to be a bluffot loses it's hold. Yep
Bodies die but you're individual evolution goes on. Look at the stars, do you think something as creative and wonderful as us would only be here for a nano second. Fast physical creations wear out but their spirit continually grows.

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sharkman Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 12:31pm

TB , yeah Russia and China , giant fuck ups , but not because of the ideology , because of mans inherent greed !

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tonybarber Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 1:09pm

Yeah sharkman, maybe man's desire for 'greed'. But 'greed' for what. From our family experiences, you were simply shot and sent away if you did not agree or comply with the system. Thats seems to be something else besides 'greed'.

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yocal Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 2:11pm

TB, from some reading I've done recently, I am warming to the concept that there is something deeper than greed which drives us to be 'greedy'. We have evolved and adapted as a social species because we have an innate drive to protect our own. What we perceive 'our own' to be varies greatly between person to person, family to family, neighbourhood to neighbourhood, religion to religion, country to country. Essentially we are all programmed to protect people that we associate as being one of us. I agree with Dave the Rave that for us to survive as a species which is currently & vicariously vested in beliefs and behaviours which may potentially see us Humans making ourselves extinct (whether it be from world war or Climate Change), the solution is to collectively change our opinions of who we identify with, who we call 'our own', so that on at least a high level, we can cooperate as a species and make some substantial changes to the way we coexist with each other and with our natural world.

What a complex and laborious process to unwind such an intricate web of social 'norms' of idenitfying 'us and them', and find the common ground we share as humans wanting the best for our own people, our own species, all the while fearing that others may not share this common ground with us. This challenge is essentially to evolve from our tribal past, where this type of 'us and them' behaviour served a purpose, to considering a greater consciousness for humanity, where we resist natural urges to identify & generalise other humans as not being part of our greater purpose.

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sharkman Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 3:09pm

Power and control , coupled with greed , now there's a description of why 80% of the worlds asset are owned by 5% of the population.

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tonybarber Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 3:42pm

YL, I assume 'our own' is a new meaning, whatever that is. Note, that Im saying that family members killed fellow family members if they were varying to the political ideology. This particular ideology was totally uncompromising, no room for variances, as dictated by the dictator, in this case, Stalin. So if you not part of the 'our own' then what happens. Do you maintain some sort of moral compass or belief.
Sharkman, I was told (please don't quote this as truth), that 8 of the worlds richest persons in the world hold 50% of the worlds population wealth. This is the pressing economic issue facing the powers that be, apparently (!)

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 4:11pm

That's pretty heavy tb we are truly lucky here in Aus and we sometimes forget it.

I remember reading about a study some time back, although it's name escapes me, about people being influenced by the behavior of others as a part of the herd mentality and how they would happily do awful things as long as it was accepted amongst their peers. It was sobering stuff.

I read a similar statistic that it was the top 1% that controlled 50% but I guess the effect is the same. If someone has 40 bil and gets 5% annual return then 20 years from now its worth $100 bil.
That's more than they can ever spend so they will be forced to forever monopolize the world economy just so they have somewhere to park their coin.

If there's 8 of the bastards then they probably already own the world and they're going to own a hell of a lot more.

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sharkman Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 5:53pm

Gaz is right , 1% own 50% of the worlds wealth , which leads to who are these people , how did they get their wealth , and who controls them, or do they really control the Governments??

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tonybarber Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 6:16pm

For a starters we have Bill Gates, the Mexican telco - Carlos Slim, ... the rest I'll leave to others.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 6:32pm

Yeah we want a few of those old money oligarchs, rothschilds etc.
Wealthy families from a century or 2 ago that had huge real estate and business holdings and managed to keep the wealth under one umbrella.

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sharkman Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 6:39pm

So getting back on Trump and Turnbull , who do they represent , and who are their masters?

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AndyM Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 6:47pm

Sharkman, I think there's little doubt that the real elites bring huge influence to bear on governments, especially acting collectively.
I used to work for a guy who is the wealthiest real estate developer in the U.S. - he basically created Orange County.
It's been said that he "wields more power than Howard Hughes ever did, probably as much as any man in America over a concentrated region—determining not only how people live and shop but who governs them."
He was/is a Republican and his social circles included a Democrats senator and also the owner of the Chicago Tribune/L.A. Times/Chicago Cubs.
Heavy hitters and manipulators of policy, no doubt.
At the same time, I suspect that these guys are a rung under the so-called military-industrial complex who make or break countries in much more black and white ways.

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sharkman Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 8:38pm

So Company profits continue to climb , Turnbull advocating tax cuts to corporate taxes , real wage for us commoners go down , where are we heading?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/company-profits...

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 9:01pm

An ever-increasing class of working poor - no house, lucky to be able to afford to run a car.

Unless there's a fundamental change in Australia's political system, bend over and take it.

https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/workplace-relations/weekend-penalty-r...

happyasS's picture
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happyasS Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 9:09pm

"""Gaz is right , 1% own 50% of the worlds wealth , which leads to who are these people , how did they get their wealth , """"

they are all around us, apparently im one, you might be surprised yourself sharkman?

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Monday, 27 Feb 2017 at 10:33pm

And Wealth of four richest Indonesians equal to wealth of 100m poorest Indonesians :(

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Gaz1799 Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 9:28am

Well sharkman I'd say Turnbull is still owned by big business and silent corporate string pullers. In fact all the libs will forever be that way because menzies economic theory is garbage. Corporate tax cuts to stimulate jobs doesn't work when the companies are owned offshore or when the Australian companies offshore the jobs to increase profits. Menzies could never have known this when he founded the party tho, it was the 40s.

As for Trump well I'd say the same but at least he has the brains to realize protectionism and manufacturing are still important as all economies are cyclical. Unfortunately the libs can't see past the end of their monocles.

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tonybarber Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:18am

On the face of it, company tax cuts seems incongruous. But we are facing the problem that here are many countries offering significantly lower company tax rates than Aus. The key aim is to create jobs. It is fair to say that foreign companies will be more attracted to Aus with a lower tax rate. Sure they may take profits out but hang on, you need to make a profit first. You need workers. If the US is dropping, Asia is already well lower in tax rates than Aus. We need to drop to 27% first then review.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:32am

TonyB, As someone who says he likes evidence based debate can you please provide the name of at least one country where dropping the corporate tax rate has led to an increase of jobs/wealth of the lower and middle classes. Just one.

Now, there is a range of credible studies that show this neo-liberal tax theory has led to a greater gap between rich and poor as evidenced by the US and UK since Reagan and Thatcher ... interestingly the two countries most recently in the spotlight for their so-called rejection of the political classes and system.

There are also numerous studies that show that job losses in the west have mostly been because of automation so this lets lower taxes and create jobs line is a hoax.

Now let it be said taxing profits, given the lengths multi nationals will go to to shift profits to low taxing countries, will probably be less important in the future. I'm thinking a turnover tax and I'm thinking the billions of litres of LPG we are giving away to the world with little hope of tax collection in the next 30-40 years.

Anyway, I digress TonyB, please name one country where this lowering tax theory has increased employment. Thank you.

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stunet Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:41am

Few flaws in that though TB. For one, the companies that have been singled out as corporate rent seekers, usually tech companies, aren't significant employers. Their labour force is notoriously small compared to profit. Mining and agriculture can't go elsewhere and they're far bigger employers.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:50am

We already tax miners/gas companies on turnover in the form of royalties, although we should be doing a hell of a lot more in my opinion.
The issue of tax avoidance and moving profits internationally is murky because its just so easy to do.
They just charge a massive "management fee" or "rent" charge from the overseas parent company and there's no international entity with any teeth that can pursue the parent company to find out if its a bullshit charge or not. The country that hosts the parent company in it and receives the lower rate of tax definitely isn't going to be shaking the money tree too hard.

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Gaz1799 Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:52am

Would love to know Trumps company group structure and where he registered his company hq.

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tonybarber Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:52am

Stu, not sure what companies you re referring to. The key problem we have is that there are many foreign companies in foreign lands where the tax rate is significantly lower than ours. Singapore, Ireland, UK and now it looks like the US. The Ireland story is a good one. Sure mining and agri have to be here clearly but the 457 may have stuffed up that. Re IT companies, interesting to know that's coming back. Heh, even SN is overseas (in US) - why, (no need to answer that one).

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tonybarber Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 11:54am

GS, agree pick up a piece of rubbish on the way back to the car after a surf but maybe have a look at the global company tax rates.

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GuySmiley Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 12:05pm

Not sure about the sarcasm TonyB, perhaps I'll just direct you to how Norway taxes its multinationals and the size of its sovereign wealth fund and how they fund education, health and everything else we in Australia just don't seem to have the taxation receipts for. I'm sure we would both like world's best practices here, perhaps that's something we could both agree on.

Gaz1799's picture
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Gaz1799 Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 12:09pm

There's a lot more to it than that though tb. Last time I looked we had the highest rates of personal income tax after Germany and our consumption taxes (think gst, fuel excise, sin tax etc) are phenomenal. Australia has a fairly high rate of consumption per person too so why shouldn't there be a premium for operating in our market?
Disposable income in Australia is through the roof compared to most asian countries in the area so it's a lucrative place, although for how much longer is anyone's guess.

The price Australians seem prepared to pay for some things beggars belief!

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 1:41pm

Barberino, you're either trolling, or you haven't being paying attention or maybe you're blinded by ideology.
The big boys pay no tax.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/a-third-of-top-australian-co...

Their continuing growth in profits come at the expense of you and I.

YOU are getting ripped off Tones, wise up.

With regards to my post on the 27th at 6.47pm, all of the really wealthy people I've worked for have Caymans/Channel Islands/Luxembourg etc shell companies - absolutely no exceptions.

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tonybarber Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 2:10pm

GS, no sarcasm - always have picked up one. You have selected Norway but ignored many others. but thats not the issue. Norways company tax rate is less than AUS. That is the point Im suggesting. Its a turn off for any foreign company for a start. You are talking about profits which come after a company operates in Aus. That is again another issue.
Gaz, is not that the point taxes are too high ? What Im suggesting is if companies want to setup here and of course current businesses, lets make the tax competitive to other countries of similar work force and abilities. US, UK, Singapore come to mind.

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Gaz1799 Tuesday, 28 Feb 2017 at 2:34pm

Yeh I should have elaborated a bit more tb but its in-depth. I have a background in tax and it's a sad fact that the more a business earns the less tax they pay (individually). The government refunds GST through their BAS and mining companies also receive fuel tax credit refunds for the fuel excise and there's plenty of others. Lets not even touch negative gearing. Point is they get plenty of kickbacks so 30% is hardly prohibitive.

The thing that makes us the least competitive is the extremely high cost of wages. If you take any salary you can add 20% on top for all the extras like super,workcover,payroll tax. I'll be the first to raise my hand and say I'm not taking a pay cut either.

Multinationals couldn't give a toss about the tax rate as they won't pay it anyway!

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indo-dreaming Friday, 3 Mar 2017 at 5:32pm

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talkingturkey's picture
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talkingturkey Wednesday, 26 Apr 2017 at 12:39pm

100 days of Trumpmania. & Turdballs, although he jumped the shark yonks ago (sans Fonzie jacket), just keeps on truckin'.

Anyways, here's some 'fake news' from our fave 'fake news' site:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/opinion/wrestling-explains-alex-jones...

Let's get ready to RUMBLE!

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talkingturkey Wednesday, 26 Apr 2017 at 3:23pm

Ol' Turdballs better beware when he meets the Donald face-to-face!